Purwakarta Church Burned Down

May 26th, 2008, in News, by

Church burning A church is burned down in Purwakarta, West Java by local people feeling slighted at the lack of response to their protests over its construction.

In Citeko village, Plered district, Purwakarta, West Java on 20th May a church run by the Abdi Karya Foundation (Yadika) was burned down in an attack by hundreds of local people.

The building had formerly been a tile factory and was in the final stages of being converted into a church. Local residents had repeatedly complained about the conversion of the building into a church, and Citeko village head Andri Yani said the building was supposed to have been turned into a school.

Initial reports said no arrests had been made l6, later reports state that four people are being questioned by police over the attack. jakartapost


102 Comments on “Purwakarta Church Burned Down”

  1. Lairedion says:

    The more you follow the true mainstream Islamic teachings the more you’re willing to resort to violence and intolerance.

    Islam is very clear with what it has in mind for non-Muslims. Dhimmitude for the Book people, forced conversion or death for the others. So it has nothing to do with DNA but everything with religion.

    Those who can induce you to believe in absurdities can convince you to commit atrocities.- Voltaire

    To add a related story: My Sundanese parents-in-law were disowned, neglected, frowned upon and harassed by their own family and neighbours from the moment they decided to abandon Islam. It took nearly two decades to establish some sort of normal contact again. I asked my wife’s grandmother why she broke off the relationship with her daughter. She answered that leaving Islam is a sin, leaving Islam is leaving your Sundanese identity and that neighbours and other relatives looked down on her because her daughter was an apostate. Now my mother-in-law is the only one left to look after her mother because her sisters and brothers are too busy spending their rupiahs on kretek, pengajian, pesantren or building mosques.

  2. rima says:

    rob:
    call it as you see it, it’s fine with me šŸ™‚ DXP seems like a bit of a bigot anyway from his posts in this thread.

    lairedion: the same thing happened to me. until this day my parents have not accepted me, and it’s been a long 7 years that i have been disowned. but hey, maybe in another decade, right?

  3. Hitam Tapi Cina says:

    Rob,

    How dare you compare Indonesian Chinese to Hitler?
    DXP is racist there is no doubt about it, but he is only a victim.
    Hitler killed 6 million Jewish people.
    Chinese Indonesian were killed more than 6 million times, in case you forget.
    Whites, including Aussies did that and killed many in the past, being discriminative. Indonesian chinese has never killed and even retaliated as far as I know.
    Aussies killed many chinese immigrants 200 years ago, too.
    Did they kill aussies in response? No
    I am sorry but I won’t let any red neck hillbillies to tell us not to discriminate others, because you think you’ve gone thru all those in the past. Who do you think you are?

    Pribumis think highly of white people, while they see chinese as sinners who only try to make profits out of them.

    You may live in Indonesia right now, but it does not make you know what happened to Indonesian chinese any better. The truth is, pribumis treat people differently based on their skin color and whether they are chink or not. This is also in the mind of many pribumi intelectuals.

    If a Chinese make contribution to the people, pribumis simply think this chinese is trying to clear up his sins. Who knows what they are taught in their family. To my knowledge it is only hatred and dispise to chinese, no matter what the chinese do.
    While if whites did something, even a silly one, get more appreciation than chinese.

    It is simple. You don’t know how it feels like to see and hear your friends, family member got raped, killed or burn.
    To say you know how it feels is just rubbish and a big lie, unless you have the same experience that we had. You could really make me laugh to death.

    As far as I am concern, you are just another smart ass white imperialist who is trying to dictate what I should or should not do.

    Do you think, that the aboriginese stolen generation will easily forget and forgive after all, those cruelty put upon them by the white invaders in Australia?
    The answer is No.
    Not without recognition of their suffering and the past wrongdoings of Australian Whites.
    Not without a national apology.
    Not without a change in the way the Australian whites are treating them.
    Not without compensation.
    To tell you truth, I think the White Australians are treating them just like a plague.
    As human alike, Indonesian Chinese also need all those compensations because we are only human.
    And for God sake Rob, Stop playing Jesus. You make me sick.

    As for the threat of counter terrorism against moslems, it is not a new idea nor it is surprising, considering the fact that anything can be used to kill any human on earth nowadays.

    KiwiBali,
    It is not surprising if a group of Chinese Indonesian who have been discriminated then support themselves and make a tie among themselves.
    After all, who will help them? The government? The moderate moslems? Only in your dreams.
    It is merely survival instinct.

  4. kiwibali says:

    KiwiBali,
    It is not surprising if a group of Chinese Indonesian who have been discriminated then support themselves and make a tie among themselves.
    After all, who will help them? The government? The moderate moslems? Only in your dreams.
    It is merely survival instinct.

    hey i have no problems with that, i just hate it that DXP base such attitude on racial superiority. his further comment that seem to promote the whole view of “let Indonesia rot, just help ourself” just fueled me. Indonesian stick together! we help each other, each Indonesian. and yes we all need to integrate,regardless of race, how can we all be called Indonesian if we each act like strangers with each other.

    How dare you compare Indonesian Chinese to Hitler?

    dude i think Rob was just inferring that DXP attitude is mirroring Hitlers reasoning on his action to ‘wipe the world of jews’. he was not inferring all Chinese Indonesian, just DXP. which comments lead you to this conclusion?

    I am sorry but I wonā€™t let any red neck hillbillies to tell us not to discriminate others,

    As far as I am concern, you are just another smart ass white imperialist who is trying to dictate what I should or should not do.

    what is wrong with that? it doesnt matter what race he is, he simply trying to stop this problem to further consume the rest of the world. discrimination is rampant, all the people of the world have to speak up. and Rob did just that speak up.
    he simply tried to tell us no to discriminate, thats not a white imperialistic comment thats simply a good comment.

    Pribumis think highly of white people, while they see chinese as sinners who only try to make profits out of them.

    so lets change that, DXP remark is not doing anything good. we need to turn this country arround.

    And for God sake Rob, Stop playing Jesus. You make me sick.

    when did he tried to play jesus? chill down dude, he’s just voicing oppinions. he’s not trying to turn water into wine.

  5. Rob says:

    Kiwibali…

    Thanks for the defence šŸ˜€

    HTC…

    I thought about letting this one go and not responding but in light of the fact of the fact that I am neither a red-neck hillbilly nor a smart arse white imperialist, how could I resist teeing it up with a person such as yourself?

    Dude, get your head out of the sand for a minute or two and take the time to read my posts and perhaps you might be able to then address the issues that I raise.

    Who compared Chinese Indonesians to Hitler? What I said was it was a small hop, skip, and a jump from the idea that one race has superior DNA to that of another, which is what DXP is saying, to the final solution as sort after by Hitler! Nah, did I say all Chinese Indonesians are galahs? Or were my remarks directed at one galah in particular?

    HTC…you want to retaliate go for it. What I said was that for someone saying they seek justice and yet advocates violence seems to me to be perpetuating the cycle of violence. I, in fact, agreed with you and DXP that justice must be served. I do not agree that the way forward is revenge and violence. I guess we beg to differ on this point and will have to agree to disagree.

    But dude, it is high time you got your hand off your pecker and came good on what you preach. If you are talking counter terrorism against Indonesian Muslims for the atrocities they have perpetrated against you then you need to not only talk the talk but walk the walk; take back your country and what is yours!

    Yet, to be honest this all seems to run counter to your claims of Chinese Indonesians having never fought back! Are you suggesting that you do now? Are you suggesting that you are ready?

    Do I know the history of Australia and the riots in the gold fields of Lambing Flats (later to become the town of Young) and the murder of Chinese gold miners. Funnily enough, I do! Why do I know this history? Because I grew up there! Was it wrong, yes! But how do you want me to make reparations to you on this one! Will an apology do? Did you have any family members that were murdered on the Flats? Or am I just apologizing to you because what you have in common with those victims is your Chineseness?

    Who do I think I am? HTC, I am a man with a conscience, a man with a brain, a man with a point of view and an opinion, a man willing to speak up at injustice, and a man who throughout his entire life has tried to right wrongs in his own little sphere of influence! Just because I do not agree with you does that make me a redneck hillbilly or a smart arse white imperialist.

    Oh, because I am not Chinese Indonesian I cannot have an opinion? Or is it that I cannot fully understand your experience because I am not Chinese (Indonesian)? You presuppose I have no Chinese Indonesian friends, you make assumptions to which you know nothing about, you presuppose way too much and you simply get it wrong. Have I seen a family member raped, no; have I seen a family member burned, no; do I have friends that suffered during May 1998, Yes; did I endeavour to help those that suffered, yes; did I spend many hours organizing assistance to those in need, yes! Once again HTC, you presume and you are wrong. But if you indeed have family members who were raped and burned to death during the riots of May 1998, then I would like to help you document this and I would like to help you in your fight for justice! I am not interested in revenge or helping you get revenge though but justice is a different kettle of fish!

    On the aboriginal question this is where you make me laugh! You have abso-f*cking-lutely no idea! My whole life has been involved with helping my indigenous brothers and sisters fight the injustices that the system imposes on them. This included volunteering at primary schools teaching remedial numeracy and literacy, it involved working with indigenous youth, it involved (while in law school) volunteering at Aboriginal Legal Aid, after law school it involved appearing in court to defend indigenous clients. So, I am aware, perhaps acutely aware, of the plight of my indigenous brothers and sisters to a level that you could not possibly be aware or understand, unless of course you have had the same experiences as me. Do you have these experiences?

    It certainly did not prevent you from having an opinion now, did it? So, why do you hold me to a higher standard than you hold yourself?

    Who is playing Jesus? What did I say that gave you the impression that I was trying to play Jesus. Jesus was just a man, probably a stone mason rather than a carpenter, and I do not claim to be like him or have any particular divinity!

    Do I feel bad about making you sick? Not really! You simply did not get my posts before you embarked on the hate-filled rant that you posted.

    Perhaps it was your survival instinct kicking in, the idea of fight or flight!

  6. Lairedion says:

    rima: I’m sorry to hear that, it’s a sad and poor mentality to put religion before children, family and friends but I can see you’re a strong person and I hope one day it will happen.

    offtopic: It was quite an eventful weekend there in Brussels, wasn’t it? North-African youths rioting with soccer fans in Anderlecht and a snapped 747 on Zaventem Airport…

    C’mon guys, we should put DXP’s comments, how “racist” they may sound, into a little perspective. We cannot imagine the feelings Chinese Indonesians have experienced for so long because of institutionalized racism and discrimination. And he’s just sick with reading newsflash nr. 10000 about a Indonesian church burnt down by Muslim mob. One really starts to wonder if these Muslims and the current leadership are having any brains.

    The real issues DXP has are with the racist attitude of pribumi Muslims. And this attitude is not DNA related but related to this stupid backward religion they follow and justifying all their acts with it. Correct me if I’m wrong DXP?

    Any reaction from the local Purwakarta MUI boss yet? Or the MUI Capo Di Tutti Capi in Jakarta?

  7. Tony says:

    @Rob & KiwiBali

    You guys make good points and I am in no way defending DXP. However, I grew up in Canada and as an ethic minority I can tell you both I was discriminated against on many levels and therefore I tend to see positive things come from “white guys” that have walked the proverbial mile in my shoes–it tends to open their minds. Most Aussies and Kiwis that I meet are usually not as hateful as Americans, Brits or Canadians.

    @DXP

    All the ethnic groups that you listed have never really came up with any real significant patents in modern times. Most patents come from the USA and the inventors are usually of scottish background–so maybe they are the superior race.

    The chinese can only steal technology these days and then copy it–nuff said. The reason the pribumis dont like you guys is because you are just as racist towards them as hitler was toward the jews.

    The only thing that makes me laugh is that every time China comes up in the world–Japan invades them and puts them in their place. Make no mistake about it–Bush & Co. have given Japan the green light to further increase their military–so china should tread carefully–remember history.

    However, the chinese are hard workers and great partiers–no better prostitutes in the whole world. I like going to the discos that you all run because the women are pretty, the drugs are good and the liquor is fresh. If you want to talk DNA issues: why is it the chinese have such a problem with honesty?? Is it part of their DNA to be liars or are they taught that by the parents (cultural)?

    Yes, I know that the chinese invented gun powder, asian noodles (not all noodles–you have to give the arabs credit for what is pasta) and some great philosophers. However, they also gave the world chairman mao, the art of corruption (they have made it a science), wide spread human trafficking and defective products that tend to break after 2 or 3 uses (see Wal*Mart). There were other great civilizations, (Mayans, Incas, Rome, Greece, etc) so dont start with how great china has been. You mentioned the koreans, vietnamese and others–are you stoned or stupid?? If those groups have contributed anything other than being copycats too–please, enlighten me. I always like learning new things as I will be the first to admit that I DONT know everything and enjoy when I can learn something new.

  8. Lairedion says:

    So Tony, I like to know, what is your ethnicity?

  9. HeavenlySword says:

    Is it part of their DNA to be liars or are they taught that by the parents (cultural)?

    We all lie. Lying isn’t right but it’s been done by human regardless their ethnicity. If scapegoat is needed, well let’s point our finger at the greatest liar of all time -*hint*our bapak pembangunan *hint*- For he has taught us how to cheat, how to bribe, how to change history, you name it Tony.

    Burning church now feels like some “casual family” activities nowadays. Which comes very naturally because the attackers are always left unpunished. I was doubt before, but now
    I’m defeatist, skeptical beyond measure that this mentality can ever be cured.

    What this country needs is a stronger iron-fist type of government that won’t tolerate any similar mentalities and will punish hard regardless their ethnicity, religion and other mambo jambo. No “GET OUT OF JAIL FREE” card anymore.

    But yea, I’m skeptical that this would happen. Habibie has failed and so are Megawati and SBY. I long for some good news, but that won’t happen any time soon, or will they?

  10. HeavenlySword says:

    just typical Chinese gangster who make fortune upon misery of his own brother, he always try to scare all Chinese to leave Indonesia

    You probably should have said “a typical gangster” instead. Although I disagree with you, it doesn’t take a gangster to take benefit of his own blood. That happens everywhere. Soeharto did that and so did his evildoers. Politicians also do that everyday when making decisions.

    Btw we have to thank to DXP honesty in this matter because what he said could be representing deep inside unspeakable sense of most Chinese view toward Pribumi

    While I strongly disagree and don’t condone DXP’s statement, which I think is very -very- offensive. I tend to think that you share the same sentiment too against chinese but you do it in a mild tone/manner, don’t you think? I may be wrong though.

  11. Tony says:

    @Heavenly Sword

    Good point, thanks for ur opinion. I have just had the unfortunate experience of being lied to way too many times and I am generalizing which is wrong.

    @Lairedion

    I am brown and proud–that’s as far as I will go.

    @DXP

    To get back to the point (without my rant)–I understand completely what you are talking about and i dont disagree that where you have high concentrations of muslims only in indon you have problems. But that is only one factor. These areas have problems with education and poverty. this is why these things happen. someone also mentioned condemnation but in a society or the world for that matter the old saying of sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me–is so true in west java. You really need hard core penalties like jail to deter people.

  12. Rob & Kiwibali,

    All I can see from you two is the lack of knowledge of the suffering of the Indonesian Chinese for 250 years inspite of all the massive contribution they have given to the nation.

    The history of Chinese prosecution in Indonesia tells us that only those who physically fought back who survived. The same happened in May 98. Those who were killed, burned and raped were those who only hoped that someone out there would physically defend them, which nobody did. Those who survived all the riots since 1740, were those who fought against the mob by arming themselves. These acts of physical self defence were the one which saved my family and fellow chinese in Indonesia from rape, killing and burning in 98.

    As you have admitted that you never had the same experience that I had, then I suggest you stop your big fat lie and stop imagining yourself walking in my shoes. The fact is you will never know how it feels and understand the anger incited by those violence while I, a chinese Indonesian helplessly watch all these injustice after doing years of social work in the rural.
    I will not pretend that I know much about the aboriginese of Australia but I can share their feeling of frustration and anger of all the killings and injustice on them. And I congrats the Rudd government for saying sorry to the aboriginese.

    Rob,
    What you are doing to help the victims of violence will not do much to prevent it from recurring. As the matter of fact, it did nothing as shown by the topic of this posting about Church burning.

    I feel like having a DEJA VU.

    I can see in my mind when church burning frenzy started in 1992. At that time, I was as stupid as you are thinking that peaceful approach will solve the problem and love the country and it’s people without any doubt. But then sporadically, the Amok spread everywhere and then ended up in 98 with big riots almost everywhere.

    The lesson from that is the same. Nobody will physically defend the minorities for any reasons. If they got killed or burned or raped, the majority will start hanging signs in front of their house saying “RUMAH MUSLIM” or hang a SAJADAH (moslem praying carpet) on their doors.
    Once it’s over the same thing again will happen again. Some will say how unpatriotic those minorities who fled the country with all their belongings, some will deny any violence has happened and some will just sit and enjoy the scene. Same old story.

    To my fellow minorities,
    learn from the history of violence against Indonesian Chinese.
    It was only those Chinese who armed themselves and physically fought against the mob who survived.

    Tick, tock, tick, tock.
    The Church burning in 20th May is the beginning of the next cycle of violence.
    AS the world economy is crumbling, with high oil prices and food prices, violence will only get worse. It is only the matter of time before the next big riot happens.

    To all my fellow Indonesian Chinese,
    don’t listen to anyone especially a white man, saying let us manage this peacefully because that will only lead to your own demise, meaning another killing, burning and rape of your friend and family member. When the big riot happens, the Australian government will readily ship Rob and his family out of Indonesia and protect them from any harm by any means if he hasnt run away before that, while you will only burn in hell in Indonesia. And then he will start to write a book and become famous or rich from his storytelling about all our sufferings, as usual and I won’t be surprise if he does that.

    Again, I go back to my solutions:

    1. Get out of the country if you can
    2. If you are staying then Get into politics now and defend yourselves politically

    and above all start arming yourselves and set up an exit plan.
    If you live among moslems especially near a slum, bribe them by doing charity to them, hopefully if you are lucky they won’t touch your belongings during the riot.
    If you can, then unite with your other fellow chinese and fight back. Kill whoever wants to kill you, burn whoever wants to burn you.
    These are the key to your survival.
    Again nobody will stand beside you and fight against the mob except your fellow chinese. There will not be a Rob or a Kiwibali (who lives among the kiwis), you are on your own.

  13. Lairedion,

    I am glad you can read between the lines of all this stupid discussion on DXP racism. Well done.

    Rob,
    You are right.
    It is about survival.
    Life and death.

    You have a big strong umbrella above your head (the Australian government).
    I don’t.

    I am grateful for your support to minorities in Indonesia but unfortunately, you are only throwing salt into the sea. I can only see you hitting against a brick wall.

  14. Sylvester says:

    I can understand DXP thought even though I disagree with some of his comments.
    Discrimination againts religious minorities indeed is one of the problems not only in Indonesia, but also in many countries. Just recently, the community in Camden, a town in NSW, Australia, reject the proposal of Islamic school in the town. Some residents argue that Islam does not fit is Aussie society, even saying that Islam is terrorist. This reminds me to FPI and laskar jihad in Indonesia. They are pretty similar. Maybe Aussie are a bit better, they do not burn. But I see the hatred and prejudice are the same.

    Who said there is no racisms in the countries such as USA, EU and Australia? The worst case of racisms actually happen in the developed countries where the whites discriminate the non-whites since last century until today although the cases have been decreasing. Whites are still respected in Asia or Africa, but do most whites are willing to accept that in some cases Asian or African are better? Look at the case of the book 1421 and 1433 by Gavin Menzies. Most respected white historian think it is just a crap, simply it is hard to accept the idea of Asian (particularly Chinese) glory and heritage to the world. When Chinese develops so fast both in economy and military, you see how cautious and suspicious the Western governments. They would be very happy to blow up any single mistake that the Chinese may have done.

    However, I will salute the Americans if they elect Obama. I also appreciate what Kevin Ruud did to apologize to the Aborigine, but what is next? Many Aborgines are still treated as 2nd class citizens.

    There is one article today in Jawa Pos in the opinion section about Taize community that promotes interreligious harmony. I joined the service years ago. Hope the spirit could reach Indonesia.

  15. kiwibali says:

    All I can see from you two is the lack of knowledge of the suffering of the Indonesian Chinese for 250 years inspite of all the massive contribution they have given to the nation.

    how did you came to this conclusion? that i dont know or even appreciate the contribution of the Chinese Indonesian? i do realise the massive contribution they had on our economy, make no mistake i really do appreciate and respect their effort in the building of this great nation. let me make this clear again: ALL INDONESIAN ARE EQUAL, weather they are yellow, brown, black even plain green. EVERY INDONESIAN HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THIS COUNTRY, what ever the form economical or even sacrificing lives for the good of the country.

    If you can, then unite with your other fellow chinese and fight back. Kill whoever wants to kill you, burn whoever wants to burn you.
    These are the key to your survival.

    Chinese-Indonesian are not the only one who are experiencing discrimination! there are others in Indonesia. why just unite with fellow Chinese? unite will INDONESIAN againts the opression! Chinese are not the only one that are felling the discrimination. Yes Chinese are arguably the Ethnic that has been suffering the most in the hand of discrimination, but that does not mean your are alone in your struggle. there are discrimination againts Hindu, Budhist, christian, melanesian etc.
    I dont condone violance, but i do understand the need for self defence. how bout trying to move to other part of Indonesia that exhibit a blatant discrimination, the last time i was in Bali the community was peacefull.
    to quote gandhi “an eye for an eye will make the world blind”. violance is not the answer, defenitly not racism.

  16. Rob says:

    HTC…

    You might talk the talk but you do not walk the walk!

    If you truly have teh courage of your convictions why do you not identify yourself and lay it all on the line for your cause. You encourage others to flee or to get into politics but you yourself do not state that you have the courage to identify yourself and get into politics. The idea of fleeing for some Chinese Indonesians is not a possibility as they have been Indonesians for many generations all of their roots are here and it is not as easy as that!

    What is the massive contribution that they, being Chinese Indonesians I presume, have given the nation? Is this bigger than the contributions of other ethnic minoirities in Indonesia? If so, how so?

    HTC, if you are talking about fighting back with regards to those who survived May 1998, then you obviously survived because you are here to fire off this hate-filled rhetoric that you are doing now. Yet, you say in your previous posts that your family members were raped and their places (homes and businesses) were burned and in this post you say that they fought back and survived. So, when you refer to this intimate knowledge of raping and burning of family members, are these your family members or is this something you understand based on your common Chinese Indonesianess with other families who suffered the ultimate loss?

    I admitted that I had no family members harmed by the tragedy that was the May riots of 1998. I did have friends who suffered and continued to suffer. So, perhaps I understand a little more than you give me credit for. I am not surprised you write me off though because to accept that there are people who are not Chinese Indonesian who want to help, who are prepared to help, and who are prepared to fight the good fight along side you and not for you, undermines your “us” and “them” argument.

    I gotta say HTC, I do not think I ever said that I imagined myself walking in your shoes! I am certain that I would not want to be walking in your shoes, then or now! What you are advocating now is an escalation in the violence and the perpetuation of this circle of violence will help no one. I was proposing to break the circle of violence, for which you labeled me a redneck hillbilly and a white imperialist! Oh, and you also tell me I am stupid, nice one!

    HTC…what I do accept when it comes to you is that I will never convince you that violence only begets more violence. What you advocate will do more harm across the board than putting into pplace a functioning law enforcement system. Yet, before all of this there needs to be education! The problems Indonesia face are huge but not insurmountable…You will never convince me that the way to Chinese Indonesian “salvation” in Indonesia is through violence!

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    Tick, tock, tick, tock!

    I offered to help you, your response was a personal attack! Go figure who has the problem here? I did not say that I could stop the violence from re-occurring! What I was suggesting was trying to find justice, and one way to find justice is to document the atrocities so that the pursuit of justice never dies even if the people do! You have your way and I have mine. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that we can reduce the risk of violence by making those who perpetrate that violence pay for their actions. Will it stop the violence, probably not, will it make someone think twice before burning a Church or a mosque, hopefully!

  17. kiwibali says:

    I dont condone violance, but i do understand the need for self defence. how bout trying to move to other part of Indonesia that exhibit a blatant discrimination, the last time i was in Bali the community was peacefull.

    sorry i forgot to put ‘ move to other part of Indonesia that doesnt exhibit a blatant discrimination

    i fully aware that we have took a massive detour on the issue. i was just quite fumed when DXP started his rambling about “DNA” based racism. i am also fully aware of the rampant discrimination that ethnic Chinese had to endure. Im not gonna say that i understand how the ethnic-Chinese suffer. I am fully against discrimination, because i have experienced it (although to no degree of the ethnic-chinese).
    im just trying to bring the country to unite again, againts the so call arab-influence and religious extremism.

    The founding father made it clear ‘bhinekka tunggal ika’, i just want to uphold their sacred ideas. those people that doesn’t uphold this are threat for our civilization.

    just thought i go back to topic; Education is the key in hope to reduce and ultimately eliminate discrimination.

  18. Tony says:

    @HTP

    Maybe I am not seeing the same thing you are. Is it really that bad right now?? I remember in 1998 when many Chinese-Indonesians through friends of mine used my house to store important documents–guarded by security appointed by the Canadian Embassy. That was bad.

    Do you really believe that things are going to deteriorate that bad this time?? I hope not.

  19. Deng Xiao Phing says:

    Those who can induce you to believe in absurdities can convince you to commit atrocities.- Voltaire

    Hm … human being were born with freedom to chose, don’t blame on the religion or the ideology, blame on the individuals who posses the ‘freak & weak’ minds
    who can be easily ingrained with terrorist dogma. Those who constantly blame to others because of their lethargic mental illness … lazy in the nut shell

    Now … here again the sensitive topics, my personal opinion, in the event statistically those individuals come into the same race and the statistics shown & had proven from 1960s up to 2000s repetitively committing attrocities without feeling guilty on behalf of their terrorist believe … then what else to blame ?
    ha ha ha … you want to angry ? then create riot please ….

    In fact I am dissapointed why there is no riot this May in Jkt ? as anniversary of 1998 May riot, in this round we are fully ‘prepared’. The first time your house get burn down – you may feel schocked & fear at that time, but not at the second time …. we stock piled our amunition to retaliate

  20. Rob says:

    HTC (and DXP)…

    “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”, this is also attributable to Voltaire in some form or another!

    No matter whether you belittle me on whether I can know your experiences or understand your levels of pain and hate, I say this to you (and to everyone else)…

    I can empathize with you as a human being. This empathy is not dependent on my Chineseness, my Indonesianness, my Chinese Indonesianness, or on my whiteness, it is based on our shared experiences as human beings! Maybe this is too warm and fuzzy for you, who knows?

    But as I said we will have to agree to disagree on what are the root causes of today’s problems and how to move forward.

    To each their own!

  21. Kiwibali my friend,

    when did he tried to play jesus? chill down dude, heā€™s just voicing oppinions. heā€™s not trying to turn water into wine.

    Rob is exactly trying to turn sour vinegar to sweet wine. The feeling of those abused, killed, burned and raped minorities is unimaginable. Do you think saying comforting words or writing about their story will change that horrible feelings.

    You have never seen your sister raped then burned to death in front of your eyes with you helplessly held down by a mob, have you?
    Unless you have gone thru that, you just will never understand the anger.
    As a human being, don’t you feel like you want to kill them all?
    If you then sound like a racist, would you be surprised?
    So far , we have been fighting against that injustice peacefully without any success.
    The fact that many Indonesian Chinese dispise moslems is not surprising and the feelings are mutual among many moslems.

    You live in a country where a slightest discrimination will be investigated and prosecuted. I am not surprise how easy for you to integrate yourself in to the community without loosing your identity.

    When chinese try to integrate with pribumi moslems, what do they get?
    Prejudice and the same old discrimination even among intelectual pribumis. You can see it in their eyes how disgusted they are to see you mingle among them. Many of them think ” what are these sinners doing here? They deserve discrimination for all their sins and no matter what they do will never wash away their sins. Shedding their blood is halal.”

    Asking Indonesian chinese to integrate with the cost of loosing their identity is a lot to ask, as I have experienced. The Indonesian pribumis and the Whites Dutch imperialist do not respect multiculuralism when it comes to Chinese, we have been forced to change our names, our religion, our identity and abandon our language and cultural background to survive and we do survive. But with a result that our parents kept saying, “my son you have to be better than the rest if you want to survive this country, and don’t mingle with or marry pribumis because they only bring you bad luck.”

    It will take more than a single “jesus like” Rob to change that and the work has to be done on both sides, not just on the minorities by saying calm down, calm down, be peaceful, and let us talk about this. (You have to forgive my language but ) Peaceful, my ass.

    You all kiwis and Aussies Rob, have very good governments and your governments respect life. Indonesian government and moslem pribumis, they don’t.

    You see what happened when minorities are peaceful, they are again abused violently.
    And who is going to stand beside them and fight? NO ONE
    So again, they are on their own.

    If you cannot see the logic behind my words then I would rest my case.

  22. Tony,
    I am really sorry that I have painted a gloomy future for you.
    I am afraid I cannot see how we are going to avoid further violence and stop the next cycle of violence since it has started to roll.

    If the whole nation started now doing the right things, may be there is some hope that in 20-30 years time this cycle of violence will stop.

    The only solution is:
    eliminate poverty, improved education, uphold the law, prosecute whoever breaks the law and start reconciliation.
    To do so, first thing first corruption has to be eliminated or controlled severely.
    Only a well educated, financially sufficient pribumis who can make peace.
    We are nowhere near that, unfortunately.

  23. Tony says:

    @HTP and DXP

    One more question for both or either of you:

    Do you believe that we are facing another situation like May 1998?? Wasn’t that horror perpetrated by Prabowo and Wiranto?? I agree that violence should be the situation of last resort–but if you have to arm yourselves then by all means do so.

    However, these problems are part of a bigger problem in Indonesia. At least the Chinese of Indonesia have the ability to arm themselves. If my people arm themselves then the governments of the US and Canada send in the military or at the very least SWAT teams.

    Dont either of you believe that this problems comes from both the Pribumis and the Chinese?? The way some Chinese treat their servants is no less than disgusting. On the flip side, I have seen the Pribumis also discriminate against the Chinese openly–I had a client bid on a company in 2003 and I had to stay and negotiate because the founders said that they would never meet with a Chinese.

    Anyway, I understand you point of view and your position. Violence is the last resort but a bullet in the head does make the next guy calm down real fast.

  24. Kiwibali says:

    HTC

    The discrimination in Indonesia are horrible no question about it. Integration is hard, esecpially if you are different, i know im still trying my damn hardest to intergrate in New Zealand. Integrate deoesnt mean destroy your culture, culture is the riches of the world. integrate mean not to create a social exclusive in-group that will lead to distrust and ultimately hatred.

    i agree with what you posted above HTC, and i am damn ashame of it. i want to turn this country around. i hate how the founding father dream is being ruined by those idiots.
    every human being have the right for self defense, its our survival instinct. i dont condone violance, i msyelf if threaten will be in no doubt up in arms in defending those who i love. but i still think violance is the last option, and i am not a big fan.

    It will take more than a single ā€œjesus likeā€ Rob to change that and the work has to be done on both sides, not just on the minorities by saying calm down, calm down, be peaceful, and let us talk about this. (You have to forgive my language but ) Peaceful, my ass.

    this is understandable, we are all human we have emotions, whether its love and anger.

    – Im just againts discrimination, by whoever to whoever. from brown to yellow, yellow to brown, white to black, black to brown, etc.
    – i want to see the founding fathers dream, bhinekka tunggal ika, to be a reality. i know its hard, long and windy road, but i seriously i dont want all of the sacrifice that Indonesian (all races) had to make goes to waste.

    this site is called Indonesiamatters, not Indonesiadeosntmatters.

  25. Kiwibali says:

    i agree with what you posted above HTC, and i am damn ashame of it. i want to turn this country around. i hate how the founding father dream is being ruined by those idiots.

    just thought i cleared this up, by ashame i mean that the condition is quite true, the discrimination, in Indonesia that i feel ashame by it. i hate how descrimination in Indonesia (not just againts chinese but also religious descriminitaion and other races, such as the melanesians) happening so often, that people started to think that its normal and acceptable, because its not!

  26. Rob says:

    HTC…

    My sincerest condolences on your loss.

    You have never seen your sister raped then burned to death in front of your eyes with you helplessly held down by a mob, have you?
    Unless you have gone thru that, you just will never understand the anger.

    I assume this statement refers to your own personal loss. As I have said previously, I do not claim to understand your loss, your anger, or yor hatred. If the roles were reversed I am sure that I would be angry too! I am also sure that I would want to see justice done — that would be having the perpetrators prosecuted to the full extent of the prevailing law. The law would allow for these prosecutions to take place.

    In actuality, and this may surprise you, we are not that far apart based on what you have posted most recently:

    If the whole nation started now doing the right things, may be there is some hope that in 20-30 years time this cycle of violence will stop.

    The only solution is:
    eliminate poverty, improved education, uphold the law, prosecute whoever breaks the law and start reconciliation.
    To do so, first thing first corruption has to be eliminated or controlled severely.

    Even if “we” were to start now, I agree, the process would be along one. Hopefully, not 20 – 30 years. But if your children and your children’s children can live in a peaceful Indonesia where all minorities are respected, wouldn’t that be something worth struggling for?

    “The only solution”, I am not sure but each of these things you mention will play an important part in not only reconciliation but in ensuring that justice is not only seen to be done but actually done!

    You will never eradicate corruption, it just is not possible, but it definitely needs to be reduced to an absolute minimum.

    Corruption is not a pribumi or Chinese Indonesian thing, it is simply an across the board Indonesian thing.

    All I was saying, and have ever said, was that “we” have to start somewhere and that somewhere, at least for me, is not in the advocacy of more violence but finding real world solutions.

    I do not proclaim to have all the answers nor do I claim that the solutions I propose are any more meritorious than others. I just want my kids to be able to live in a world where there is more peace and harmony than there is violence and hatred.

    I am but a simple man!

  27. HeavenlySword says:

    In fact I am dissapointed why there is no riot this May in Jkt ? as anniversary of 1998 May riot, in this round we are fully ā€˜preparedā€™. The first time your house get burn down – you may feel schocked & fear at that time, but not at the second time ā€¦. we stock piled our amunition to retaliate

    DXP, I know you’re being upset and all but I’d suggest you refrain yourself from using the word “we”. Because your ideology doesn’t represent me and my family.

    Your last statement is -in my opinion- dumb. I know you didn’t really mean it when you said ‘disappointed’. My suggestion is to keep your head cool before expressing your opinion. Again you are not representing chinese.

  28. Rob & kiwibali,

    I understand totally, your view on nonviolence and equality approach. I really do hope that I can really convince myself that I can do so without being harmed physically.

    I also understand that you all might not have the same historical data as I have on the role of Indonesian Chinese in the nation building, not just economy. Read this book if you are interested: “Tionghoa dalam Pusaran Politik by Benny G Setiono” (sorry, it’s in Indonesian)

    Regarding your offer for help, it may sound like a snob but no thank’s.
    We have survived for centuries in Indonesia and we will continue to do so with our own strength, only this time we will not let anyone to harm us physically anymore. Enough is enough. We will consolidate among ourselves and defend ourselves better in the future.

    For 250 years, only those chinese Indonesian who fought back against their enemies who survived unharmed. This again happened in May 98, same old story.
    That is the fact of Indonesian chinese history.
    Politically, socially nothing much has changed in Indonesia except for physical appearance. Realistically, I am not expecting much changes in that point.

    Next time a mob comes to attack us, I will gather my fellow chinese and I won’t think twice to kill. If I die and go to hell for that, so be it. I would rather die defending my family and friends than live with shame thinking that I might have not done the best to protect them for the rest of my life. If we all go blind by doing that, then let’s all go blind. They may burn our houses, our temples and churches, but I swear with my own blood and soul, I won’t let them touch my family and friends again even if it means my death.

  29. Rob says:

    HTC…

    I just think there are better ways that passion like yours can be channeled rather than isolationism and a “fort” mentality…

    As I said, to each their own!

    I respect your right to do what you think is in the best interests of you and your family. I just hope that what you do remains within the confines of the law because to revert to an argument of they did it to me first ends up making you no better than those you claim to despise. My understanding of your whole argument to date is that you deserve to be treated with respect and allowed to get on and about your business and yor life without being victimized or discriminated against by the majority at every turn.

    I also think it is high time “we” as people showed a little more respect to each other!

  30. kiwibali says:

    HTC

    Regarding your offer for help, it may sound like a snob but no thankā€™s.
    We have survived for centuries in Indonesia and we will continue to do so with our own strength, only this time we will not let anyone to harm us physically anymore. Enough is enough. We will consolidate among ourselves and defend ourselves better in the future.

    the offers will stand as long as there are people who still adhere to the philosophical foundation of ‘bhinekka tunggal ika’. Although i could not say i agree on your view of ‘we’ in the context of Chinese-Indonesian, and therefore creating a further separations between the already divided country. I do hope in the future such discrimination can be eliminated. Because brother there are still a number of us scattered around the archipelago that will defend the ‘bhinekka tunggal ika’. just remember you are not alone.

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