War on Poverty

Nov 12th, 2008, in News, by

Street KidPoliticians waging war on poverty via billboards, and bus riding buskers in Jakarta.

A campaign billboard for General Wiranto:


“Poverty Must Be Ended”, says General Wiranto, and “I swear to devote the rest of my life to improving the welfare of the Indonesian people”.

On a similar theme:


“The People Must Not Be Allowed to Suffer”, says somebody from the police faction, and “Allow us to be the leaders of those who are suffering”.

While some talk about it others do it, and others document aspects of it:


Promo for JALANAN, documentary (2009).


36 Comments on “War on Poverty”

  1. Andy says:

    I doubt he will be elected but every world leader who has promised this before has lived to regret it. No doubt it will be replayed over and over.

  2. Chris says:

    That’s right Andy,

    Funny how no one asks SBY why he hasn’t kept his 2004 election promise of reducing poverty to 5%. The last time I heard it was still 16%, or basically unchanged since he came to office.

  3. fullmoonflower says:

    hihihi…..

    such of NATO (No Action Talk Only) persons….. 😛

    well, even they won’t be chosen, but at least they’ve been a new celebrity after the election 😛

    I just remember, one day I talked to taxi driver while I was going to logistic office from the head office…
    During that trip, we saw so many billboards of some politicans, and suddenly the driver said : “wah, bu, para penipu rakyat sudah mulai nampang nih” (“wah, mam, look the big liars were on the show”)…. hehehe…
    Then we talked much about how common people thought about their leaders, during that 1.5 hours trip…

    One thing I remembered from his story is about his neighbour who never visit warung tegal, but one day the neighbour showed his face to a warung tegal, and paid all food there for 1 day, and then he nongkrong in that warung, talked to anyone who came there, and told them to chose him for district election… (hihihi…)
    But after he has been chosen, he and his family never talked to his neighbours anymore, not even visit to that warung tegal again and say “thank you”…

    😆

  4. Farah says:

    Its better they start some real action like starting a charity organization, raise money for poor family, adopt poor kids and pay their school fee until university rather than paying some billboard with their face on it and asks people to fight property. Have to show real action, not just talk only.

  5. Patrick says:

    @Farah – I am going to very politely and only slightly disagree with some of your comments. I do agree that actions speak louder than words but often bringing an awareness campaign to people results in some actions being taken. It really depends on the person(s) behind the message and their true motivations and commitment for starting a public awareness campaign.

  6. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Patrick

    @Farah – I am going to very politely and only slightly disagree with some of your comments.

    You don’t have to. Show your true Bule colour.

  7. Chris Komari says:

    That’s why we; the people of Indonesia need to challenge and question such a politician openly and publicly ON THE RECORD about their slogan and rhetoric, the following questions:

    1. HOW is he going to eradicate poverty in Indonesia? What plan does he have?

    2. If his plans involved massive project to rebuild Indonesia’s broken infrastructures, where does he get the money from? What plan

    3. What plan does he have to fix Indonesia’s $136 billion public debts?

    4. What bench mark does he have to measure its success for his plans and how long?

    These simple questions shall be raised to challenge General Wiranto and other Indonesia’s Presidential candidates. Unless, they can come up with a comprehensive plan to answer those questions and resolve the issues, their words are nothing but empty slogan.

  8. fullmoonflower says:

    the worst thing is : usually they will be show off before they are voted to be a leader or president… 🙁

    they will come to every poor place, visit poor people… only to get simpathy…
    but after the election, they will forget them … 🙁

    they’ve thrown so much money for the election, maybe for billions rupiah, and those are not only from their own savings, some of them are from bank loans or family loans …
    so, after they’ve been voted, the things they thought usually is : “how to pay back my debts?”…

  9. Farah says:

    @ Patrick
    People here are not blind, its on the news everyday wheres child dies because not have enough nutrition. No need to add advertising, just a “basi” thing. Not really creative or innovative. Same lame slogan.
    What they need is someone who start it. A reall charity (non profit organization). Act, and people here will follow.
    Some places had these people want to donate their money but they dont know who they cold trust, and to where they will gave the charity. Ofcourse like in my province/neighbourhood we had this tradition to give charity to someone who live closer to us who can’t afford food, clothes etc.
    Awareness need when people can’t see whats the real problem that everyone facing beside proverty.
    Maybe in big countries, you had this huge billboard that said things for campaign, and its all common. But most of indonesian might will agree with me, we had enough of words, we need real action. Politics in indonesia just bulls*it, just giving promises but less coming true.
    Im just the one of people who had enough of those empty promises. They did the billboard more to campaign their self rather than to really think what happened in real indonesian everyday life.
    Need more than a huge billboard to fight proverty.

    ..if you politely disagree… well.. we don’t have to had same thought or opinion, right ? you might those people who like those indonesian corrupt politician (who rather to be rich and close their eyes from dying children at Irian Jaya, Kalimantan, other island beside Java perhaps). They rather to go to Europe to spent some money for “studies”.

  10. funny says:

    All political parties do this before the election (admittedly some do it more than the others). it’s like when someone donate huge amount of money, they wanna make sure that their names are listed in the newspaper and this usually done by big companies. looks like someone in PKS has been schooled or following after westerner way of campaigning.

    How long has the same motto been echoed everytime there is an election? How many times has it actually been accomplished? How much progress that we made? So tired looking at this.

    Fullmoonflower is right. Setting up all that requires money. How did they get the money? I hope not from saudi-arabia shitheads.

    Patrick is also right. What’s the motivation behind it? If it’s for the good of the people, surely they have already done this for a very long time. Have they? 10 years? 5 years? Or just the past year?

    Farah is also right. More is needed. Someone different is needed. Actions do speak louder than words. But temporary action leaves some question to be answered.

    Chris, it would be a great thing if we have a debate ala obama v mccain. At least if we gonna choose the same ideology and group, we know who is the lesser evil. One who lied less.

    Enough is enough. But I get a strangely familiar feeling that a lot of people wants more of the same…….

    I’m so jaded.

  11. ultratupai says:

    Here are some stats for Indonesia:

    Unemployment rate:9.1% (2007 est.)

    Population below poverty line: 17.8% (2006)

    Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10%: 3.6%
    highest 10%: 28.5% (2002) This figure is of interest because it suggests that 10% of the population holds 28.5% of the income and comsumption. That leaves the other 90% to divide up the 71.5% of what is left. Clearly, it is not to the advantage of the elite to solve the problem of poverty.

    Distribution of family income – Gini index: 36.3 (2005) The Gini Index is a rather complicated formula but an index of 25 is somewhere in the ball park of a Scandanavian country and an index of fifty is a poor African nation. Seems like Indonesia is somewhere in the middle of that.

    As for Wiranto’s billboard: that is a big cruel joke from an “at large” war criminal.

  12. AM says:

    Does anyone know which organization’s responsible for the SBY campaign? I have to write a piece on Indonesian 2009 election campagining for my study.

  13. Purba Negoro says:

    Chris- unlike your plans- Mr Togol of United States?

    You see- people like me do not trust people like you- you give us no reason to do so.
    You fully support the US position that Indonesian Debt is legal- quite the case could be made it was made under duress and illegal- not only that the Indonesian people are unfarily burdened as they were not democratically represented at the time- and the US was fully aware of this situation and its’ positive effect on its arms industry.

    Chris- tell me again why we should follow US financial advice in the face of the worst recession and possibly a global depression caused by your greedy US Jewry?

    Secondly- what are your qualifications and or experience in fighting poverty- especially in the US?

    Thirdly- what is your position on Israel and Palestine- especially the poor generational dipossessed and impoverished of Palestine who had their lands stolen by the US funded Jews?

    Fourth- what is your position on Iraq and the US occupation of it?

  14. monyetmerah says:

    Stop Poverty…. how ironic, it is the incompetency of the Indonesian Government that bring the poverty to the pepole.

    They should bring in slogan of Stop Hypocricy, Stop Electing Us!!!

    The government need to stomp out the corruption, how can you have a Minister in charge of Welfare when he is one of the richest guy in Asia? It just doesn’t make any sense.

    Wake up Indonesians!!!

  15. Chris Komari says:

    To: Puba

    I will be happy to answer your questions.

    In democracy, it is not about ‘trust’ but it is about ‘oversight’ through transparency, check and balance. You do not need to trust me or any politicians out there when it comes to politic not because you don’t trust them. Trust does not play any role in Democracy. An oversight does. For that matter, it is critical that the people of Indonesia insists on being informed on government affairs in order for them to remain in control over the instruments they have created through general election to establish public oversight through transparency, check and balance. This has not happened yet in Indonesia.

    I have presented my arguments at length about Indonesia’s public debts with you the in past. I do not need to go over again. Indonesia’s foreign debts billions and billions of dollar with PARIS CLUB, which consist of 18 creditors or countries, and United States is one of those creditors. To blame that USA is to blame for Indonesia’s massive foreign debts is flatly wrong, unfounded and unjustified. Look at the fact! If those debts were executed in SECRECY by the old regime in the name of Indonesian people without consulting with members of Parliament at that time, who fault is that?


    Chris- tell me again why we should follow US financial advice in the face of the worst recession and possibly a global depression caused by your greedy US Jewry?

    Indonesia has no obligation to follow any foreign country’s advises if the Indonesia’s President and other leaders have the courage to say “NO” to $43 billion dollar emergency package from IMF just like what Malaysia did. Why didn’t they? Even when Indonesia accepted this money as part of the string attached agreed to shut down 16 banks, main private debts became government debts. As a result, a brand new $80 billion DOMETIC debt was created that had never existing before in the history of Indonesia. This decision was made by the Indonesian leaders who could not say ‘NO’ to $43 billion dollar emergency package. Who’s to blame, Purba? The IMF, the USA?
    Sri Mulyani was one of those IMF council members at that time. Look at what happen to her now. In stead of being scrutinized for this blunder, she becomes a minister at SBY’s administration. What a deal!

    As far as the current economy debacle in the US that affects the world, it’s the Wall Street’s greed and coupled with trillion dollars that the USA had spent in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan under President Bush ill foreign policy. The sub-prime debacle would not be this bad if the USA does not spend that much money on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just like losing a job after having a house caught on fire. It’s a double deep in the US economy.

    Indonesia does not have to and have no obligation to follow any financial advice from any foreign countries, including the USA. All what Indonesia needs to do is to say “NO” to the American dollar. Unfortunately, until up to the late 90’s, Indonesia had no courage to say no to the US dollar. Blaming the US or other countries for the decision that Indonesian leaders made to is just shifting the blame game. It does not sit well in any reasonable argument.

    Secondly- what are your qualifications and or experience in fighting poverty- especially in the US?

    I have no qualification. But I can say this. If the $3 trillion dollars that has been spent in Iraq and Afghanistan war domestically in America, each single American will have free health insurance, a brand new house and one brand new car per household. Why don’t they do that? This is the issue in the American politic. All government spending must be approved by the US Congress and the President and giving free health insurance to all American does not seem their priority up to this time. Why? Understand the American’s lobbyist from the Insurance companies in the US Congress. Giving free health insurance to all American people will put insurance industry in bad shape. This was the argument of former Presidential candidate John Edward. If America cares and America can!

    Now how about poverty in Indonesia? It is not about if Indonesia cares Indonesia can, it is about Indonesian politicians who care about themselves that need to be changed. With those massive domestic and foreign debts, I don’t know how Indonesia is going to elevate poverty unless those massive debts are being resolved first.
    It does not take a genius to draw conclusion that there is a direct correlation between government’s massive debts and its citizen’s poverty and prosperity. The bankrupt the government is, the more likely their people will suffer and live in poverty. That is Indonesia today. The irony part is that their politicians keep bluffing about fighting poverty but none and not event a single political party dares to challenge those politicians. That is really sad.

    Thirdly- what is your position on Israel and Palestine- especially the poor generational dipossessed and impoverished of Palestine who had their lands stolen by the US funded Jews?

    My position on this issue is very clear. Not only the Jewish people have the right to exist, all nations in the world have the right to exist including those displaced Palestinians. The question is how a nation should exist?

    This is where I disagree with the establishment of the current United Nation. The current United Nation as I see today is nothing but the stooges of those 5 permanent members of the United Nation including the US. It is not fair for all of those hundreds and hundreds small countries around the world who are poor and have no nuclear arsenal. Many small countries around the world have no power in the UN and their voices are just optional if not window dressing. The state of Israel was established in that kind of environment with full support of the United States and some of those permanent members of the UN. If you want to find someone to blame, then it is the UN’s fault. But who dares to challenge the UN and those 5 permanent members?


    Fourth- what is your position on Iraq and the US occupation of it?

    This is also not new. Over 70% the American public neither supports the war in Iraq nor, approved how President Bush handles the war in Iraq. I am one of those 70% American who do not support the war in Iraq. Those are the war of President Bush and his cronies; the neo-con. But it is within the spirit of American democracy, there is only one President at the time and if we don’t like and don’t approve our President, that does not mean that we can go crazy over him and harm him physically. We either don’t re-elect him or we give him until his term to end and we elect another President that has a completely different policy then he does. That is why the American people (black and white) elected Senator Obama by landslide in a mood to punish Republican. The President Bush policy deems to be ill and wrong around the world, it is the job of the new President-elect to correct and rectify those mistakes for the benefit of the US interest around the world. That is the American democracy.

    Now, let me ask you this. I just want to know your perspective on this issue.

    For being a member of the Indonesian arm forces (TNI), does the Timorese have the right to exist?

    Does the Papuan have any right to exist? What condition, situation or circumstances that warrant or constitute a tribe or nation’s right to exist?
    end

  16. Purba Negoro says:

    Chris
    Timorese have the right to exist- yet the self-determination- as I have explained in detail was an Australian gas grab.

    Your ignorance and willful disbelief at the American game of pointing gun to leaders’ head and then demanding they sign is alarming.
    We all remember what happened to former US best friend Saddam Hussein al Tikriti when he dared say no to US dollar payment of oil.
    America was fully aware of the political situation of Indonesia and chose to exploit it.
    As to whose faulty- it most certainly is not the fault of the Indonesian People and they should not be burdened with these illegal debts made under duress.
    No logical or rational argument can be made that they are at fault nor should be burdened by these debts.
    To argue they should would be contrary to the interests of the Indonesian people.

    Papuan- no- they have no right to self-determination aside from the sweeping self-rule already granted to them since 25 years ago.
    Under UN recognised law- Papua Barat or more correctly Irian Jaya is Indonesian and the legal case is utterly watertight.

    Its’ Indonesian sovereignty is neither debatable nor contestable and furthermore if you do not support Indonesian possession of Irian and Timor- you are an enemy of Nasionalisme- thus an enemy of the Panca Sila Republic of Indonesia- spitting in the faces of the heroic Revolutionaries.

    We see through the transparent attempts at provocateur in Irian for multinational to have more lucrative deal.
    If you are an advocate or agent of such multinational ulterior motive- you are also an enemy of the Rakyat.

  17. Chris Komari says:

    To: Purba

    As far as Indonesia’s unity as a nation or country, I don’t disagree with you at all. I don’t want to see Indonesia in chaos, turmoil and disunited. The sovereignty of Indonesia shall be a done deal, non-negotiable or bargainable. But for a country to be loved by its citizens, that country must be fair and just to its people. She can not discriminate, be unjust and unfair to certain tribes, ethnicities or group of people. This is the question that I am raising.

    Does Indonesia treat the MINORITY equally to the mainstream or the majority? The MINORITY includes but not limited to the Christians, Jews, Hindu followers, Buddha followers, Papuan, the Chinese, Balinese, Timorese, and a few bule or Westerners who live in Indonesia. Does Indonesia treat them fairly and equally, in terms of protecting their basic human rights as citizen?

    I posted those questions to understand your mind set. Being a member of TNI, it is hard for you to think outside the box because you have been brain-washed that way. I don’t blame you for wanting to be a good soldier. You ought to follow order and adopt the TNI’s doctrine, regardless. But here, we are not in the Military setting where no soldier is allowed to argue or question his superior’s order and authority. In democracy, we do! We; the people are there to question authority.

    In your arguments, it is okay for the TIMORESE to claim their right to exist as a nation but not for the Papuan or Sumatran. Your basis argument was the UN resolution on West Irian but you neglect or fail to answer the underlying question. What condition, situation or circumstances that warrant or constitute a tribe or nation’s right to exist?

    If you argue that Papuan has no right to exist as a nation because of the UN Resolution. Using the same token and argument, the Jewish people will argue to you and to the world that they have the right to exist and thus have the right to establish to the Jewish States as we see today since the establishment of the Jewish States was based on the UN resolution despite the fact that those lands belong to other nation.

    Now, will you dare to present the case to millions of those displaced Palestinians using the same argument you used to the Papuan? If you do not, then what condition, situation or circumstances that warrant or constitute a tribe or nation’s right to exist?

    I posted this question to understand your reasoning before I response the other issues.
    end

  18. dragonwall says:

    Chris Percuma. Gak perlu buang waktu. Don’t waste time talking to people who is only a General Duty Man in the ABRI. He knows nothing about politic but referred to overnight second hand news being brain washed till he had become more like and idiot, a coward, a traitor, a discriminator, an instigator and a Chinese and Minority Hater to sum all up.

    You should go more indepth into all these blogs to understand what he writes. 10% borrowed words, 20% loaded language, 20% bulshit and 50% full of denial.

    He feels that he is an authority to everything and the only ruse he use is, like what Enigmatic says, using loaded language trying to impress others.

    This guy failed to understand that hard word breaks no bone.

    When you say

    Does Indonesia treat the MINORITY equally to the mainstream or the majority?

    How do you sum this up. Did Indonesia treats their minorities euqally?

    BTW Are you referring to Indonesia or America? When you say

    We; the people are there to question authority.

  19. Purba Negoro says:

    Dragonwall,
    Whatever helps you sleep at night after all that gay sex.

    You may critique my language- but you are just yet another jealous Chinese- kicked out of a nation he was never welcome to enter- by a hitem keling orang pribumi with a far better mastery of English than you can ever hope to attain through conversations with your male “johns”.

    Chris- you have lived far too long in the clouds in the USA.
    Your thoughts are noble, but I am sorry- vacuous feelgood nonsense designed to pander to bourgeoisie moron.
    I am sorry- but these are few on the ground in my nation- but omnipresent in the West.

    In Indonesia the majority native has supreme and unquestionable, unalterable right above any and all colonial-legacy imported parasite.
    Majority rule after all is democracy, is it not.

    You forget it was us the majority who was enslaved and subjugated by the Chinese, the Christians etc- all those hated minority by the majority whom you seem so keen to hug.
    There has been no attempt whatsoever to apologise by these very guilty colonial collaborators or even abode legally nor respect the nations laws, customs and culture..

    To extend the hand to these vile unapologetic, uncontrite parasites is to slap the still effected pribumi in the face.
    You are hugging the rapist and calling the victim an ungrateful slut.

    As per the exploitative willing colonial collaborator minority like Chinese, Ambonese, non Kai Irian etc- I will say in no uncertain terms- they shall live on their knees until they beg for forgiveness.
    The Chinese MUST beg for forgiveness, repay all their ill-gotten and stolen wealth with interest, surrender all property and legally apply to live in a nation they were never invited to enter.

    We have a very long memory Mr Komari- we do not whitewash our history for our own smug moral convenience as per your USA and civil rights movement and the Anti Chinese Labour movements.

    When I see someone like McCain, Bloomberg, Schwarzenegger, Ginsberg, or Juliani marry a ghetto black or illegal Latino- maybe I and my people will listen to such empty words.

    Until then- your Imperialist nation you so admire is yet again cause of the globes’ misery- again thanks to your beloved Jewish minority group. Not content with owning the Fed, and one Jew depression- they must cause another?

    Please pass on my nations thank-you at Arnall and Warburg’s next cocktail party.

  20. Chris Komari says:

    To: Dragonwall

    Thanks for the advice and your points are noted.

    I don’t argue to win but to see if I can learn something from others, to set the record straight and at the very least presenting different perspectives and ideas on the issue regardless if I agree or disagree with whom I am engaging the discussion with. As long as we focus and address on the issue and not attacking the messenger, I am up for it. Because only then, we can learn something valuable from each other even though at the end, we agree to disagree.

    I used the word “we” referring to us as citizens around the world who live under democratic government wherever they are, that can be Indonesians, Americans and other nations.

    In Democracy, it is not about trust but it is about an oversight, public oversight as the people have the right to know and to be informed. For an oversight to be established in a democratic government, the citizens have every right to question the authority or agency that the people have created through general election.

    That is what I meant that the people living under democratic government are there to question authority (agency) who serve them.

    I hope that clarifies and answers your questions.
    end

  21. Enigmatic says:

    We have a very long memory Mr Komari- we do not whitewash our history for our own smug moral convenience as per your USA and civil rights movement and the Anti Chinese Labour movements.

    PN,

    I think you merely choose which ones to remember, and which ones to whitewash or just sweep under the rug. case in point: the 1998 riots. Timor.

  22. Rob says:

    PN…

    Maybe Indonesians have a long memory but the TNI / ABRI does not.

    Timor’s Independence was not an Australian gas grab. If you refuse to pull your head out of the sand the only one around here having any gay sex will be you and not dragonwall.

    See, the long memory thing means that you have already forgotten Santa Cruz Massacre in 1991, the slaughter of innocents also known as the Bantaqiah massacre in Aceh, the Semanggi I and II incidents, and the disappearance of activists at the hands of the Rose group from Kopasus. Nah, your memory is short and when you do remember incidents such as these you try and brush them off as never having happened or being some part of a Chinese – Jewish – American – Western conspiracy to smear the good name of ABRI.

    The Papuan case is hardly watertight, it might be different in some respects but you’re kidding yourself that it is watertight.

    But on topic and on the war on poverty. The point is that the banners evidence nothing more than the warm fuzzy generalist claims of candidates looking for votes. What would be more revealing is the policy that these candidates are going to implement. What would be more interesting is seeing how these policies are costed and seeing how the money is going to be used.

    Are these candidates going to fund their poverty reduction campaigns by stripping money from defense and security? Are they going to strip it from education or health or transport?

    PN…you need to start singing a new tune as this one is getting old.

  23. Purba Negoro says:

    Rob
    I am afraid being an emotionally volatile middle-class angst addict with a penchant for bleeding heart causes has eroded what little commonsense or cynicism you ought to have for your own nation.

    But what to expect of lawyer- anywhere he can agitate to make a buck- correct?
    Well- you may critique Abri and our necessity of harsh measures where required-but you do so from a position of total ignorance, childish naivety, limited knowledge and real life experience of my nation and never having been in life and death confrontations with determined, massed, violent mobs.

    And not the white pussy you have in Cronulla or typical Carribean savage in Tower Hamlets.

    These are real hoodlum- one who will stab you dead for Rp 1000, and then sit on your corpse to eat his sate, without thinking twice no guilt nor remorse.

    What other motivation was there?
    Out of the goodness of their white saviour hearts?
    If so where were they in 1972 when Portugal instigated a civil war?

    All of the evidence clearly indicates it was an Australian gas grab.
    No different to Iraq- Austrlia did not want to be dragged out before Internatinoal tribunal and air of all its’ very diry laundry in a public forum re Timor in arbitration of their illegal UNCLO territory.
    Have you seen how Australia has stolen most of Papua New Guinea’s oceanic resources there too?

    Or have you conveniently forgotten the 2007 “regime change” Howard was advocating for those uppity “fuzzy-wuzzies” asking for a decent cut off the loot?

    Rob your nation is the colonialist- interfering in Solomon Islands to Fiji- happily orchestrating whatever tin-pot coup suits its’ multinationals

    Being a mincing whining nancy boy and getting your skirt in bunches about Indonesia won’t alter the fact that you and your kind are as guilty as the one who point the gun.

    You are the demand- we are merely supply, nancy boy doesn’t particularly care as long as price is cheap. Notice all the hand wringing about Iraq when gas price increase- not before.

    Semanggi 1 and 2 were nothing more than idiot students funded by Western NGO’s- they were warned not to turn violent- but they did and they bore the consequences of their refusal to obey common laws.

    Your nation also has laws about peaceable and violent and riotous assemblies- does it not?
    The UK certainly has- the infamous Riot Act.

    But when Moral Arbiter Supreme/White Saviour or theiving Jew coward in Palestina shoots teargas and rubber bullets- and some are accidentally killed- well that’s just harmless accident- says the bourgoisie mincer sipping his fair-trade machiato.

    What do you not understand?
    The necesisity is enemy of the state must be dealt with in harsh manner for the GOOD OF THE MANY.

    We have 230 million people- how to cater for their every whim and human right- when most of them are nowhere near developed?
    You in the West have 20 million Australian- easy to cater for everyone and plenty of money to spread around.

    In Holland- 8 million, in Scandanavia- how many- 30 or so max million?
    In USA- 250 million- but how many trillions to spread among them? No poverty like in Indonesia to solve- no IMF loan to repay.
    How to repay the loans without resource to sell, Rob?
    Human Resouce? Such a joke- everything we can do China do ten times cheaper- and not have problem of loudmouth wimpy whiney Australian constantly poking nose where it does not concern them.

    How can we possibly steer the nation in the correct manner for everyone’s communal benefit if we listen to every stupid malcontents’ trivial complaint?

    Some must suffer for the greater good- and in some case some die for the benefit of all.
    This is a very nasty distasteful reality you need to face that not everyone is amicable enough to say pretty prose in front of the judge.
    Jungle law and wild man law is all they understand.

    Those few people the ABRI kill only understand the language of violence. That is the only language they use to us or government. The Timorese never seek arbitration or government discussion. Acehnese do not want to sit in cafe and talk things over.
    No always in their stupid head “Merdeka- merdeka”- because idiot whitey put the thought into their tiny brains and gave them the gun or bolo knife in their hands.

    At Dili, Santa Cruz etc- they deserve every bullet. They rioted with spear and klewang sword. What to do when such irate savage charge?
    Ask them to sit down to take their tea and crumpet?
    Such a pity Australian agitatior present- we could have saved bullet and be rid of a hundred pests.

    Then idiot agitator Australian reporter in Balibo- instructed to leave- from OUR lands- for their own safety- yet they arrogantly refuse. We warn them time and over. And somehow we are to blame when they turn up dead.
    Are you to blame too Rob- when stupid child is playing on the busy road and run in front of your car?
    No- it avoidable accident 100% fault of victim.

    Exactly like near naked stone age primitive of Irian- their mind is not like yours nor mine. Their life is so insular and remote from modern realities- they cannot cope.
    They are savages and children simultaneously and they are not above killing even their own brother or wife on a whim.

    And when you are in the situation were it is kill or be maimed or killed- you will not weep at the blood on your bayonet.
    I have no regret for my tour in Timor and every ABRI soldier alive would gladly kill 20 million for our 230 million and still sleep so soundly.
    Every Timorese got what he deserve- we veteran would gladly go back and punish them ten times over- we were too soft like on GAM- only will negotiate when back is against the wall.

    To be frank almost all Indonesian will agree we should have eradicated every last Timorese and Irian ungrateful seditioner bastard instead of being so stupid to buy their love through help, education and very expensive loans to actually help and improve them.

    Napalm so much cheaper than health clinics and training midwives and farmers/tradesmen.
    So pity and stupid we are not mimic you whites in Vietnam. Our minds are too stupid to think we can help instead of just give them a present of pox infested blanket as charity like you whites to your noble savage indigenes.

    Then we could point to our good intentions and smugly stroke ourselves like you LMF bleeding heart brigands, but avoid any and all responsibility and avoid getting our own hand dirty doing the hard jobs, when far easier to complain.

  24. dragonwall says:

    Chris

    Thank you too. I wish that many Indonesian could be like your more liberal thinking and that would make Indonesia a better place for most minorities still in there.

    See, this forum is meant to be educational and a crossroad from all over to offer a discussing point and to better understand the situation that has been bugging Indonesia for a long long time.
    It thus seemed to have been purportedly defray and sidewind into a topic of most hatred and discriminations bar none. More to the fact that some person have in persistance argue their way out of facts that was a reality. And further arguing his right to defend the wrong just because of his own detestation and the inferior complex that he perceive and thus display in words that become more of personal putdowns and insults to justify his cause.

    You were right to say

    I don’t argue to win but to see if I can learn something from others, to set the record straight and at the very least presenting different perspectives and ideas on the issue regardless if I agree or disagree with whom I am engaging the discussion with. As long as we focus and address on the issue and not attacking the messenger, I am up for it. Because only then, we can learn something valuable from each other even though at the end, we agree to disagree.

    But nothing to this effect had set any precedence. More important is that there are people who are all about how they use of words in displaying their prominence. I felt otherwise.

    And for this

    I used the word “we” referring to us as citizens around the world who live under democratic government wherever they are, that can be Indonesians, Americans and other nations.

    How I wish that everyone could be like you.

    In Democracy, it is not about trust but it is about an oversight, public oversight as the people have the right to know and to be informed. For an oversight to be established in a democratic government, the citizens have every right to question the authority or agency that the people have created through general election.

    Belief you me, democracy in Indonesia is dead. If you were to read from indonesiamedia.com the latest development about the segi tigat between Aburizal Bakrie, SBY and Jusuf Kalla regarding the Porong disaster. You will understand what I mean. How the FPI members threat to kill those official involve in executing Amrozi & CS. Read what Faisal Basri said, you will see that democracy in Indonsia is unlike what many thought of. So

    That is what I meant that the people living under democratic government are there to question authority (agency) who serve them

    So who are these people to complain to!

  25. flamedrago says:

    I have never been embarrassed as Indonesian, but this time, reading PN’s comments, and knowing that he’s also Indonesian *sigh*
    To all, please disregard whenever PN expresses his opinions/thoughts as the nation’s opinions/thoughts, because they are not! His opinions/thoughts/curses/sarcasms are merely his, do not reflect any other Indonesian’s opinions.

  26. Indonesianbraveheart says:

    I think the 1st thing to do right now is to put the indonesian population in good control. We can’t afford a kuli bangunan in our society which gets 600.000 Rupiahs per week with a wife and 5 children …

    There will be no future for this kind of family …

  27. dragonwall says:

    We can’t afford a kuli bangunan in our society which gets 600.000 Rupiahs per week with a wife and 5 children

    So how do you propose to make that happened. to have certian changes! How.

    If the Indonesian society at large were to come to their sense and stop further discrimination, detestation, hating and making the Chinese a scapegoat. The future could be better. Why?

    People will begin to understand, forgive and forget, live and let live.

    The basic philosophy of life.

    The transition peiod of adaptation will begin to equalize the living environment and market, thus making the security in Indonesia more conducive and less subjective.

    Don’t you think so!

  28. Chris Komari says:

    TO: All

    Everyone has every right to express opinions, regardless we agree or disagree. I respect differences. Knowing all of you guys ideas and opinions on certain issues enriches my knowledge and enhance my ability to understand the issue.

    However, when one makes such a reckless statement and baseless arguments to justify the killing and atrocities toward minority and those who disagree with the mainstream or government’s policy, it does bother me if not disturbed me, especially, when that person is member of arm forces, government official or a representatives.

    The notion used to justify the act of violence, the killings, atrocities by ignoring basic human rights in the name of stability and thus those minority who disagree with the government’s policies are deserved every bullet is just undemocratic, if not dictatorship in nature. That shall not be tolerated anymore in Indonesia. To suggest that Indonesian people are politically immature to embrace democracy is just an insult to those millions and millions Indonesian people.

    Democracy is a system of government that shall be adopted and implemented impartially for a democracy to work. There is no such a prerequisite that for a democracy to work in a certain country of the world, their people must first be politically matured. That is just a baseless argument.

    There are dire needs from the people of Indonesia to see a change, a significant change. The question is HOW?

    That is the reason why I form a new political party that is progressive, nationalist, future and people oriented. This new political party is certainly NOT military, religious or ethnicity ORIENTED. This is a grass-root political movement that will be undertaken by all Indonesian people from all walks of life. We welcome the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu followers, Buddha Followers, Confucianism followers, member of kepercayaan, and the Chinese descent, the Balinese, Javanese, Sudanese, Papuan, Sumatran and every Indonesian from Sabang to Merauke. This party will fight for the interest of the people of Indonesia as a whole, as one united nation regardless of their background, sex, education, ethnicity or religion.

    This political party will promote the underlying principle of Democracy that it is the people who have the higher mandate and authority in the country and not the legislative, the government or the executive who serve them. In order for the people to maintain control over agency or instrument that they have created through general election, this party will fight the people’s RIGHT to know and to be informed to establish public oversight to maintain transparency, check and balance in the government. This is our political platform.

    I encourage you all to support and be member of this new political party. This party is your political platform to make a significant change in Indonesia. This is a political party that is open for everyone regardless of your religion or the color of your skin. Your ideas, commitments and willingness to be part of the solution to make Indonesia a better country is much more critical to us than your MONEY. I believe, that you and I can turn the impossible possible! For more detail, please view this website: http://www.futureindonesia.com

  29. dragonwall says:

    Chris,

    Did you mean WIRANTO…..

  30. Indonesianbraveheart says:

    So how do you propose to make that happened. to have certian changes! How.

    If the Indonesian society at large were to come to their sense and stop further discrimination, detestation, hating and making the Chinese a scapegoat. The future could be better. Why?

    People will begin to understand, forgive and forget, live and let live.

    The basic philosophy of life.

    The transition peiod of adaptation will begin to equalize the living environment and market, thus making the security in Indonesia more conducive and less subjective.

    Don’t you think so!

    What I wanted to say was that we have to control the population.
    I just put the kuli bangunan family as an example of how people create their own poverty …

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