Shopping Mall Churches
Apr 28th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Church services in malls, people in West Java are flocking to shopping malls in order to pray.
“Indonesians seek salvation in shops”:
Shopping malls in West Java are home to a growing number of Christian congregations. There are 10 in this mall alone.
Few of them want to talk publicly about why they are here, but off the record they admit it comes down to intimidation by Muslim groups.
According to Church groups more than 100 churches have faced attack or intimidation in the past two years.
The example given in the BBC article is the Gereja Kristen Pasundan (see Anti Apostasy) church in Bandung, which has been attacked several times recently.
The GKP is unable to gather the 90 signatures necessary to gain formal permission, as per the houses of worship law.
Only 20% of the churches in this province have an official permit to hold religious services.
Although the lack of a permit probably applies to most mosques, as well, considering that according to an official in Surabaya, East Java, 90% of the houses of worship in that city don’t have a permit, irrespective of which religion. tempo
Saipul Abdullah of the Islamic Defenders Front explains that the FPI have a three-step process for dealing with illegal churches:
- ask for proof of their legal status
- issue a warning letter
- inform the police
There may be a fourth step which is not mentioned. From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7368877.stm.
90 Comments on “Shopping Mall Churches”
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What kind of country we are living in? I am wondering. Christians pray in shopping malls or even houses because some of the local leaders tried to make it difficult for them to obtain a permission to build churches. Some retards even questioned whether conducting Sunday services at houses and shopping malls should be allowed. This is mirror imaging, illegal churches must be closed down, illegal mosques are allowed. đ
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The important thing should not lay in physical building, and I believe it happens everywhere. Here, it’s the Christians, in other places it could be the other way around.
I get jealous with how easy it is to have a room to pray for the majority, though. But, hey, no complain to go to mall to pray! We can shop right away đ
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This article somehow reminds me of the trip I made back from Semarang to Jakarta, in which several times the traffic got congested because the two-laned road was intentionally narrowed down by the local dweller into a one-laned road, so that they could ask for money from the slowly passing cars to build their local mosques.
How easy is it for Muslims to build mosques and yet Christians must ask for so many types of permit, and even then they are being complained to disturb their surroundings, claiming that they are too noisy.
What if I complained for the same thing?
I live in an area where there are mosques practically surrounding every direction you could think of, screaming out loudly that those other than Muslims are infidels and therefore must die.
But to whom shall i complain? Because no one cares. Not even the government. Remind me again why Pancasila was created because as glorifyingly as it sounds, it’s all bunch of lie.
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Indonesians who think that in Christian/Western countries what’s happening is the other way around must not have been in those countries, or are just blind.
The western people are so guilty of their ancestors’ slavery and discrimination mistakes that try to be politically correct all the time and they give immigrants/minority almost anything they ask. They feel the need to constantly show the world how they support equality and how they detest racism that they all their good intentions and decisions strike them back, creates grave problems in their countries like a boomerang hitting them hard making them fall flat on their white asses.
Fortunately Indonesians have no regrets of the kind and just keeps on doing whatever it is we want to do. Just because we can.
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PrimaryDrive says:
therry:
Remind me again why Pancasila was created because as glorifyingly as it sounds, itâs all bunch of lie.
Lie or no lie, remember that Pancasila is the very definition of Indonesia. Intolerance towards a certain religion, no matter which one, is not in the spirit of Pancasile. Hence it is against how WE have AGREED to live together. The way I see it, people like FPI no longer wish to maintain this Pancasila common ground. I for one has no problem to say: folk, here is where our roads separate.
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andrey says:
therry:
“I live in an area where there are mosques practically surrounding every direction you could think of, screaming out loudly that those other than Muslims are infidels and therefore must die.”I challenge you to came with a proof of this, otherwise you are just a liar.
You should try to find out what was really said in those broadcast.. I suspect it’ll be nothing more than some call for more piety, some community broadcast (somebody dies, etc), and normal call to prayer.rima:
“Indonesians who think that in Christian/Western countries whatâs happening is the other way around must not have been in those countries, or are just blind.”Which countries are you referring to? it seems that you only see what you wanted to see. Regulation on building place of worship also exists in most western countries..
locals there can, and often do, use various reasons like zoning rules, availability of parking lots,fear of increased traffic, fear of terrorist, etc, to block the building of a mosque. -
“Regulation on building place of worship also exists in most western countries..
locals there can, and often do, use various reasons like zoning rules, availability of parking lots,fear of increased traffic, fear of terrorist, etc, to block the building of a mosque.”depends on the country obviously each western country is different. but rima has basically nailed it, most western europeans at least don’t worry as much about religion as indonesians, therefore it’s simply not as big as issue over here.
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Ohoho! I already knew that someone would say something ridiculous like Andrey, who “challenge you to came with a proof of this, otherwise you are just a liar.”
By all means, why don’t you just step outside the cave for a moment and listen carefully, the truth is already out there. I don’t even have to prove anything.
Oh, by the way, it’s prove, not proof. And to come, not to came, yeah?
And why would I want to find out what was being broadcasted anyway? I could hear it loud and clear, every single bloody day, like it or not, as it was clear they set the volume loud enough for absolutely everyone to hear it, probably with the intention it would magically convert some idle Christian like me who was sitting in front of her laptop trying to get some freaking work done.
I would rather listen to trance, or music “ajeb-ajeb” as what Achmad the terrorist says, any time any day, anyway.
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Lairedion says:
locals there can, and often do, use various reasons like zoning rules, availability of parking lots,fear of increased traffic, fear of terrorist, etc, to block the building of a mosque.
Yes, but the whole procedure is different and regulated by authorities and law. For example Muslims want to build a mosque. If allowed a provisional permit will be issued and locals have the chance to submit their objections. This can go all the way to court and a judge will decide the construction can go ahead or not. The judge will check both the application and the objections with the Law, benefit for society and all other kinds of criteria. If granted by the judge the mosque will be constructed and there are no local thugs raiding construction sites to check if there’s a permit.
In Indonesia FPI thugs can check and intimidate churches at free will, sometimes using violence drawing justification from the majority religion to carry out their acts. For Indonesian Christians it’s extremely difficult next to impossible to apply for a permit prior to construction because the authorities are weak or intimidated by fanatics or just not interested. I wonder how many Indonesian mosques have been constructed with legal permits.
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Actually, Andrey is right, it is proof, not prove. But the came is still wrong! Wrong! Mwahaha.
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timdog says:
Just to second andrey…
Therry:I live in an area where there are mosques practically surrounding every direction you could think of, screaming out loudly that those other than Muslims are infidels and therefore must die
You can quite easily make the legitimate point that there are lots of mosques near where you live without coming out with inflametory nonsense like this – speak Arabic do you?
And again, to secon andrey…
rima:Indonesians who think that in Christian/Western countries whatâs happening is the other way around must not have been in those countries, or are just blind
Just thinking about my own native country, the UK… There is no mosque for the Muslim community of the part of the country from which I come… until quite recently Muslims there were travelling to meet for friday prayers in a private home in the regional capital (some of them travelling an hour or more to get there). This unofficial meeting house was shut down because it was not liscenced for public gathering… planning permission was applied for to build a mosque in the town of Newquay… there was an absolute frenzy of complaint from locals and permission was refused on the grounds that it would create traffic problems (Newquay is Britain’s version of Kuta; a mosque was hardly going to add much to its congestion).
More recently there was a ridiculous storm of protest in Oxford after word got out in the media that a mosque there was applying for permission to broadcast amplified prayercalls (mosque officials and the council later confirmed that no such application had been – or would be – made, but the storm of reactionary racism and prejudice had already been unleashed)… It is getting harder and harder in the UK to get planning permission to build a mosque…There is definitely an issue here (churches in Indonesia), but responding with ill-informed generalisms or reactionary hysteria does the argument no good…
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timdog:
in belgium where i live, in holland, in france, in germany, in denmark, in spain there are mosques. when i was living in the us, i saw mosques/islamic centres as well. muslims are free to practice their belief. not so in indonesia (for the minority christians, at least)
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timdog,
In the West objections to mosques are part of the overall feeling of uneasiness towards Muslim immigrants and their offspring and much has to do with the failure of multiculturalism, political correct behaviour and the growing influence of Islamists, opposed to Western society.
Rima is right and not responding with ill-informed generalisms or reactionary hysteria. Western nations have been taken hostage by the left-wing multiculturalists and their policy was in turn determined by Islamic conservatives. Any Muslim with some moderate views and able to speak some basic language of the country he resides is applauded as an example of successful integration.
It’s time Westerners start appreciate their own culture and values and make sure these culture and values are dominant. For immigrants the price is losing much of your own culture, a brutal bargain.
Ignoring this and demonizing guys like Geert Wilders is grossly underestimating the real problems of integration by Muslims and failing to take a growing number of concerned Westerners seriously.
In Indonesia we’re talking about pribumis and Chinese Indonesians, familiar and grown up in local culture, society, habits and values like their Muslim counterparts, sometimes hardcore nationalists but still denied their equal rights to practice their religion.
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therry:
I am not teaching english for a living.. so..rima:
“In belgium where i live, in holland, in france, in germany, in denmark, in spain there are mosques. when i was living in the us, i saw mosques/islamic centres as well. muslims are free to practice their belief. not so in indonesia (for the minority christians, at least)”Are you sure you are comparing apple to apple here? because if we are using a mere “there are mosques in xxx country” as a parameter.. well, there are many churches in Jakarta.. even a big one next to the Istiqlal Mosque. Looks like you are making a comparison between the best case and the worst one.
Lairedion:
“Itâs time Westerners start appreciate their own culture and values and make sure these culture and values are dominant.”
So you do allow a group of people to impose their values and cultures on the other..
from that comment above, the only difference between your opinion and that of the FPI’s is on where to draw the line defining “us”…how do you define immigrant? someone who came last year? last decade?
the christian culture came to Indonesia with the dutch and portugese a few hundred years back. Maybe the FPI are just using a slightly longer time scale than you. -
You see, my problem with all of these arguments is this:
An undercurrent runs through all the comments about Western “multiculturalism” that implies that it is a bad thing; that the immigrants – no, let’s be entirely frank, when you talk about immigrants in the West you don’t mean Sikhs, Hindus, or foreign Christians; you mean Muslims – get too good a deal, too easy a ride, should be oblidged to make more allowances to the “host culture”… And with this of course is a faint implication that it is an outrage that they should be allowed to have mosques in a Christian land!!!!And then we swing across to Indonesia and bemoan the troubles of minority Christians when it comes to places of worship… I find it impossible to square these two positions unless you sign up to the universal equation of Islam=bad. And I don’t.
And Lairedion, I don’t regard this as a satisfactory argument:
In Indonesia weâre talking about pribumis and Chinese Indonesians, familiar and grown up in local culture, society, habits and values like their Muslim counterparts, sometimes hardcore nationalists but still denied their equal rights to practice their religion.
Again, dismiss me as a pathetic, bleeding-heart liberal, but the implication of this is surely that a Muslim in the “West” is somehow worth less, to be accorded less religious liberty, than a Christian in Indonesia.
There are certainly many third and fourth generation Muslims in the UK and France; plenty of idiotic people in Indonesia could very readily take your argument and use it to talk sh*t about… “Chinese Indonesians”…Now don’t get me wrong, it’s not that I don’t want genuine freedom of religion in Indonesia, it’s not that I am not concerned by tales of “oppression”, but when you bemoan “attacks” on Christians in Indonesia, then by inference grumble about the liberties accorded Muslims in the West you seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it…
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jaka says:
Pardon my question (Me no christian):
Is it not possible for christians to share churches for other denominations? I saw in Germany for instance, a Roman Catholic church is available for Russian Orthodox community to use. -
djoko says:
You see, my problem with all of these arguments is this:
An undercurrent runs through all the comments about Western âmulticulturalismâ that implies that it is a bad thing; that the immigrants – no, letâs be entirely frank, when you talk about immigrants in the West you donât mean Sikhs, Hindus, or foreign Christians; you mean Muslims – get too good a deal, too easy a ride, should be oblidged to make more allowances to the âhost cultureâ⌠And with this of course is a faint implication that it is an outrage that they should be allowed to have mosques in a Christian land!!!!And then we swing across to Indonesia and bemoan the troubles of minority Christians when it comes to places of worship⌠I find it impossible to square these two positions unless you sign up to the universal equation of Islam=bad. And I donât.
Timdog nails it absolutely here. I’ve seen this current time and time again here. The argument seems to run: If you are in Indonesia, minorities must be respected. If you’re in Western countries, minorities must be assimilated. I’m just wondering how, for example, Lairedion reconciles this seeming contradiction in arguments. Are minorities to be respected or not? Or respected as long as they’re not Muslims (which seems to be the impression that timdog is getting)? I myself am of the opinion that minorities need to be respected and protected no matter what the country.
The whole having to set up worship centers in shopping malls actually reminds me of a case in Australia where some Muslims were conducting prayer services out of a shop or something, and in the end more or less had it broken up by authorities for the same reason – no proper permits and so on. More recently Muslims wanted to build a school in Camden and it was rejected by the local council on concerns of the traffic congestion it would cause from people travelling to and from it. That’s a fair enough argument, but on the other hand some other people took things a bit further and stuck some pigs heads on pikes on the proposed site just to make the message ‘clear’.
In fact in most cases roles are just more or less reversed around from what I’ve seen when you go between countries. You have to drive for a bit to find a church in Indonesia where as a mosque is a stroll away from your place. In Australia there’s always a church nearby, but should you need a mosque you might have to travel across suburbs to find one.
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The basic issue here is that there is a law that governs where and how places of worship can be built! If people have a problem with that then lobby to change the law or find an error in the law that would make it subject to some kind of judicial review. Yet, more than anything there is inconsistent enforcement or in many cases no enforcement at all! It is this lack of enforcement that leads to discontent and then the influx of vigilantes with an agenda that fill these enforcement gaps.
The simple reality is that there are churches in Jakarta and christians can travel to those churches if they want. Similarly, as Timdog and others have pointed out, there are mosques in western countries and if there is not one close you travel to the one nearest to you. And as Djoko points out some of the applications to build Islamic Centres in Australia have not be subject to favourable respones.
But in any event a question arises as to whether you need a place of worship to fulfill your obligations to the God that you believe in! So, in that sense it does not matter does it whether the act of prayer takes place in a mosque, a church, a house, a shopping mall, or a big open field. I would have thought that true believers would pray to their respective God and that in their prayer they could ask their God for directions as to how to resolve the problem of a permanent place of worship.
The idea of there being freedom of religion guaranteed in the Constitution would imply that there is a corresponding freedom to worship in a place specifically for that purpose. Yet, the Constitution could not be read that it provides a guarantee for you to worship in houses converted into churches or mosques, or in shopping malls. After all the purpose of shopping malls is to shop, right? Or is the inference here that we are also shopping for souls? Perhaps if we whack a church or a mosque in a shopping center we might just catch a pagan or infidel soul and convert them to the cause!
On the other hand the Constitution does afford the power and the authority to the government to govern. This would include spatial planning and as such zoning and final authority to grant or reject building permits for any house of worship! Once again the key lies in the conduct of this power and the enforcement of the decisions made under this power. Unfortuantely, both leave a lot of room for improvement!
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The minority must be respected, they should have the same rights as the majority, and it applies anywhere, not only in Indonesia and certainly not only in western countries.
One western country I will make an example of is Belgium (but other european countries are not much different when it comes to this), the government are very accommodating to the minority immigrants (whatever the religion or nationality), they get the same benefits and opportunity although when it comes to obligations it is well known here that some immigrants do many things to avoid them.
Although there is religious freedom in Belgium, the state formally recognizes seven religions; Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Anglicanism, Islam, and Orthodox Christianity. Secular humanist groups serve as a seventh recognized “religion” and their organizing body, the Central Council of Non-Religious Philosophical Communities of Belgium, receives funds and benefits similar to those of the six other recognized religions.
Recognized religions provide teachers at government expense for religious instruction in schools. The state pays the salaries, retirement, for clergy and subsidizes the construction and renovation of worship buildings. Positions of clerics are allocated by royal decree, but there are no training requirements. In Flanders (the dutch speaking part of belgium), foreign clergy/imams are required to take part in the Inburgeringstrajet, a state integration curriculum. At the moment, there are 330 mosques in Belgium and counting. Because the Muslim population is now about 400 thousand or 4 percent of the population, the state realises the need for more mosques for them, thus there are several mosque building underway as we speak.
In indonesia, the minority christians have had bad luck in the past decade or so, according to several sources (one you can read here), officially the numbers of churches closed/burned down so far is 1025 (Under the administration of Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, there have been 87 cases of closed or destroyed churches. That compares with 92 such cases during the rule of predecessor Megawati Sukarnoputri (2001-2004), 232 cases under Abdurrahman Wahid (1999-2001), 156 cases under Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie (1998-1999), and 456 under Suharto (1967-1998). In the era of Indonesiaâs first president, Sukarno (1945-1967), only two cases of church destruction or closures are recorded.) and mind you, this is the official numbers, and because I know how indonesia is, i will go ahead and assume that there are other non reported cases as well.
After the closing down of such, it has always been very hard for them to get permission to even rebuild their destroyed churches. while you do not hear that here, (remember the riots after theo van gogh’s murder in Holland? there were churches and mosques that were attacked/vandalized and some were burned at the time, and from what i have seen and heard, they have been renovated and rebuilt) the western government are especially careful when it comes to these sensitive topics, they try to be as accommodating as possible as to avoid being thought of as racist/discriminative.
Again, I am not saying the Indonesian minority is worth more than the minority in western countries, but the reality is the indonesian government is not protecting the rights of the indonesian minority (which are native indonesians, who should have EXACTLY the same rights as the native indonesian majortiy) while the western governments do at least put an effort to protect the rights of their immigrant (stay permits/nationality grant is not something automatic but is a privilege granted by the state. that is already something to think about) minority.
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rima, you took the words right out of my mouth…. đ
I simply do not buy it Muslims have sh*tty lives in the West. The Constitution protect their rights as a minority and guarantee their freedom of religion. Unlike in Indonesia authorities here are generally enforcing the Constitution. If you disagree you can go to court and sue the State and an independent judge will issue a verdict.
They have often more freedom than in their countries of origin, they have access to all resources (health care, education, social welfare, subsidy, proper housing) and are far better off than native Indonesian Christians when it comes to freedom of religion. Despite all these opportunities and rights a substantial number of Muslims are opposing Western society, culture and values. And why is that? But don’t you dare to criticize them. You’re immediately branded as a racist/bigot by a combined front of PC Bules and Muslims and worse you can end up being murdered (Theo van Gogh).
Again, dismiss me as a pathetic, bleeding-heart liberal
These are your words, not mine. I believe your intentions are for real and sincere and you have dropped quite some astute comments and posts here but in this case I would rather describe you as naive.
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Lairedion, you appear to be doing it again: complaining that Muslims in the “West” have too many rights, while Christians in Indonesia don’t have enough… I simply don’t understand how you can occupy this contradictory position – unless you have a unique and specific hatred of Islam and Muslims.
Very many “Western” Muslims were born in the “West” (and these days many of their parents – and even grandparents – were also born in the “West”). I repeat: many people – many idiots – in Indonesia would make the same comments that you make about Muslim “immigrants” in the “West” about – largely Christian – “Chinese” in Indonesia…
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The difference is, muslim immigrants in the west started flocking in the 60s. while ‘chinese’ indonesians in indonesia are as indonesians are the brown indonesians. they have been there for hundreds of years, they have helped build indonesia, most of the assimilated and integrated with the indonesians and the culture, they do not pose a threat nor do they protest the government for any injustice/discrimination against them. they have been more than compliant in many things, yet there are still brown indonesian racist who claim they are not indonesians, but WNI keturunan. it’s not right, it’s like the nazi regime where the jews had to wear a star of david on their clothes.
yes, many idiots like you say, may make comments about ‘chinese’ in indonesia, and they are truly idiots, but you cannot compare them to people who are merely stating the fact, of what has been happening with the muslim immigrants in europe, and to show how they have not too many rights, but the same amount of rights as the original europeans. my point being, minority in indonesia should have the same amount of rights as the majority, including the same courtesy given by the government when it comes to building their place of worship. that’s all.
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sorry, the first paragraph should be:
while âchineseâ indonesians in indonesia are as indonesian as the brown indonesians. -
complaining that Muslims in the âWestâ have too many rights, while Christians in Indonesia donât have enough⌠I simply donât understand how you can occupy this contradictory position
What’s so difficult about that?
unless you have a unique and specific hatred of Islam and Muslims.
I do not hate Muslims but I very much dislike Islam. Once I had a neutral stance towards Islam and didn’t think of it too much but after 9-11 I started to read the Quran, hadiths and sharia and their truth and teachings were revealed to me. Since then I’m a strong opponent of Islam.
My remark about Chinese Indonesians needs to be clarified. It was with reference to the large adherence to Christianity among them, not about their ethnicity. Chinese Indonesians and pribumis are equal to me.
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…but apparently Muslims in Europe ought not to be equal to you? Because you don’t like their religion ergo you don’t like “them”?
So can I just ask for clarification: without emotive specific examples, without wider – and subjective – comments about multiculturalism, is it that you feel that Muslims in Europe have too many specifically religious rights, and ought not to be granted equal religious status to “the majority” (whatever that may be)?
As for the not liking Islam, I have absolutely no intention of launching into one of those truly absurd exchanges where I offer up examples of scriptural foulness from Christianity and Judaism; you counter with apparently uniquily vile examples of Islamic wickedness; I respond with cases of Buddhist brutality; you hold up some piece of monstrous Muslim violence; I triumphantly relate horrors meted out by Hindus… you know what I mean.
On close scrutiny ALL religions reveal some pretty ugly aspects (just as on close scrutiny all religions reveal some wisdom and beauty); but it is VERY dangerous when you start transposing what you have taken from this close scrutiny onto your concepts, ideas and dealings with real-life, flesh and blood Muslims – who are, incidentally, only Muslims because that is what they were born into – and your ideas about how we should respond to “them”.
By the way, I would respond in just the same way when people transpose such close scrutiny of a religion onto its followers in a positive way too. Anyone who talks about the wisdom, balance and inner calm of an illiterate “Buddhist” farmer in the mountains of Tibet is talking just as much sh*t as the person who talks of the innate fataticism and religious mania of an illiterate “Muslim” farmer across the same mountain range in Kashmir…
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Rima:
Indonesians who think that in Christian/Western countries whatâs happening is the other way around must not have been in those countries, or are just blind.
If you say it’s not happening, is that because you really know or because there’s no fuss about it? And, I think it’s not only christian-musHere, in Indonesia, news like this often spread from mouth to mouth, more specifically from church to church. As you pointed out the numbers are huge, but still church burned down is not likely get headline in printed newspaper.
the rest, well, i wont repeat what timdog and rob had written.
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Melly, I say so because I have lived in 3 western countries so far and haven’t seen much discrimination against the minority muslim, especially before 9/11. Even after 9/11 (at the time it happened, i was already living outside of indonesia) nothing significant changed here in europe, minority, be it Muslim or whatever else, are as respected as ever.
And reading a post in your blog titled “Homesick” I think you also feel comfortable when you were living in Rotterdam, no? -
Muslims are treated well in the West, better than in their countries of origin but it’s never enough for them. They demand respect and special treatment (in stead of earning it) and they know a whole bunch of PC bules is willing to help them with ridiculous demands such as:
– separate swimming sessions for Muslimas
– separate graveyards
– musholla’s at workplace
– halal kitchens at uni’s
– implementation of sharia law parts into British Law (aided by Super PC Bule Rowan Williams of the Anglican Church).It’s so simple: Learn and accept the language, values and culture of your host nation, participate in society, get proper education so you can have a good job and a bright future for your family, practice your religion in the personal domain and abide to the Law and Constitution. It’s in the benefit of both the host nation and the immigrant and his/her offspring. My Indonesian father, an immigrant from the late 60’s, did the same and he’s thankful every day for the opportunities and freedom offered. Right now, he’s a Geert Wilders fan. đ
If you can’t live with that you’re free to go. Nobody’s stopping you. If you think you can achieve progress by praying 5 times daily to some moonstone in a desert and regard all non-Muslims as subhumans who am I to object that? But don’t complain and moan afterwards about discrimination and ill-treatment by these same “subhumans”.
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from what i’ve heard. there is a fourth fpi step and they usually bypass steps 1,2,3 and go straight to the fourth.