Impatient People
Apr 23rd, 2008, in News, by Patung
Impatient people in West Java province who can’t wait for the banning of the Ahmadiyah sect.
Today the government’s joint edict on whether to ban Ahmadiyah is expected, while some in the last few days have been rather impatient for it.
West Java
Police general Abu Bakar said on 21st April that West Java (see West Java’s Tolerance Problem and Persecuted Churches for more on West Java) was the scene of much of the anti-Ahmadiyah “witch hunt” activity in the country. inilah
Banjar
On the same day in Banjar hundreds of men from the “Forum Pembela Islam” (FPI) boarded up an Ahmadiyah mosque, despite the fact that it was heavily guarded. The mayor of Banjar attempted to appease the FPI by promising to turn the mosque into a centre of Islamic dakwah. l6
Sukabumi
Head of the Sukabumi-Cianjur (Suci) chapter of Ahmadiyah, Dili Sadeli Fadurohman, claims that Ahmadiyah members in his town have been receiving terror threats via SMS messaging. antara
Cirebon
However a group of senior clerics from the “Forum Kyai Peduli Khittah Nahdatul Ulama” in Cirebon rejected Bakor Pakem’s recommendation that Ahmadiyah be banned and promised to ready 20,000 Islamic students and banser to protect the Ahmadiyah.
Syarif Usman Yahya from the Forum said Pakem didn’t know how to determine whether a group was heretical or not: detik
Don’t let them later say that all other streams of Islamic thought are heretical as well.
Komnas HAM
The national human rights body, Komnas HAM, says it doesn’t know what its position on Ahmadiyah is yet but will tell everybody on Monday next week. antara
Presidential Advisory Council
Adnan Buyung Nasution
Eight out of the nine members of the Dewan Pertimbangan Presiden (Wantimpres) decided to urge the president not to ban Ahmadiyah. Those in the no-ban camp were:
- Adnan Buyung Nasution
- Ali Alatas
- Emil Salim
- TB Silalahi
- Rachmawati Soekarnoputri
- Sjahrir
- Subur Budhi Santoso
- Radi A Gany
The lone dissenter was Maruf Amin of the MUI. inilah
Sore Necked Maruf.
Bubarkan Ahmadiyah Video
28 Comments on “Impatient People”
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Rambutan says:
It seems that a potential dilemma exists, doesn’t it?
Yes, and the government should take a clear and firm stance on this issue. The longer they wait, the higher the risk that certain groups use violent means. Whatever the decision by the government, they have to make clear what the rules of the game are.
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jaka says:
It is disgracing to see that it’s our fate in Indonesia to repeat the same (misled) thing that happened centuries ago in Europe! People do not seem to learn from history. Oh well, that’s western history, not Islam.
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trane says:
Patung; Thanks for keeping us updated.
Let’s hope that tolerance will win out, though it seems less and less likely.
As Jaka says, there are lots of lessons to be learnt from history in this matter. Consider for instance the close kinship between FPI and the Nazis in Europe.
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Deng Xiao Phing says:
We shall spent our energy on any humanitarian & care more about the less fortunate like the Porong mud-flow victims, it is not wise to spent more time on this matters
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andrey says:
“We shall spent our energy on any humanitarian & care more about the less fortunate like the Porong mud-flow victims, it is not wise to spent more time on this matters”
Your comment are typical of DOS era people.. when the world is run in a single thread. You had to run your computing tasks in sequence.. in priority order..
These days we are in the Windows world, we can do things more efficiently by multitasking.. do your word processing WHILE listening musics, WHILE downloading files, all at the same time.
With 260 million heads in Indonesia, it is insulting to hear your suggestion that all of them should be used only on that single issue you prioritize.. the keyword is multitasking.. search about this in google.
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the keyword is multitasking.. search about this in google.
it sounds you are so proud with your high tech Windows knowledge, while you think so advance with your ‘multitasking’ OS , I had been inventing the Service Oriented Architecture when you are in your primary school bench. You cried in your school because your mum was late fetching you, while I was putting the piece of supply chain process into SOA routines and put up it’s run-time on GRID computing middleware platform.
I see your Window 2000 with it’s advanced multtasking NFS technology is similar to ‘the debate over Ahmadiyah closure’ … a real bottle neck technology for this country, what a shame ..
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please search SOA over google … to update your knowledge into more higher level
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Syonan says:
A ban on the Ahmadiyah sect is a blow to Indonesia and its constitution, rather, the Central Government should imposed a ban on the Forum Pembela Islam, which is a threat to Indonesia as a country.
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Just to update on the post – the SKB edict was not put out today, apparently they are taking extra care with the draft of it to avoid legal challenges.
In Tegal, (West Java again) some Jamaah Ahmadiyah people were forced to sign a statement promising to stop their worship activity – by the Majelis Ulama Indonesia, the Forum Kerukunan Umat Beragama and the local police. Source
Some Islamic leaders in Kepri are asking the government to deal with the 190 Ahmadiyah people in the area, because they are heretical. Source
In Madiun, East Java, the local Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) and the Religion Department have “summoned” any Ahmadiyah people in the regency in order to get their details and put them on the right path. Source
Meanwhile the Australian press is making a big story of president SBY’s “refusal” to ban Jemaah Islamiah, the terrorist group. Source.
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Consider for instance the close kinship between FPI and the Nazis in Europe.
You’re joking right? The two have nothing, absolutely nothing in common…
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Rambutan,
No, sad to say it I am not joking at all. They may have different views of who the ‘in-crowd’ is, but as I see it their intolerance toward people who hold other views is indeed very similar as are their modes of operation and resort to violence.
The nazis fight for ‘Arian supremacy’, and FPI, again as I read it, fights for ‘Muslim supremacy’. Nazis think whites are better people simply because they are white, regardless of their actions. As I read the FPI, they believe that Muslims REGARDLESS of their actions are better than other people. FPI people will say, of course, that their actions are somehow meant to rectify a wrong done upon them over centuries or whatever. But the nazis said the same about the Jews in Europe.
I am not saying that FPI is AS BAD as the nazis or that they are completely THE SAME, but as I say they have quite a lot in common. I would be happy if you could tell me otherwise by pointing to some form of moderation in the statements and actions of FPI.
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Rambutan,
I should add that in the video below, there does seem be some measure of toleration for other Islamic groupings and points of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8qz6zMSBhMHowever, they still seem very keen to act violently against what they deem to be sinners. And in their own words they are
” ANTI-YAHUDI, ANTI AJARAN SELAIN ISLAM, ANTI-KOMUNIS, ANTI-KEMUSYRIKAN DAN LAINNYA.”
That is, “anti-Jewish, anti other religious doctrines than Islam, anti-Communist, anti-polytheist (and others)”
http://fpi-online.blogspot.com/2006_11_01_archive.html
Now, being ‘anti’ can mean many things. It does not have to be violent, necessarily. That is, if we are really stretching terms here. Still, on FPI’s blog, they post pictures of three people in particular: the chairman, Habib Riziek, Abu Bakar Ba’asyri, and… “Abu” Osama Bin Laden. Among their ‘buddies’ (sohib) you find Hizb-ut Tahrir.
I grant you that they also point to PKS and Hidayat Nurwahid who have a very different status in my book. This of course blurs the picture, and pulls them away from the extremism, violence and lack of tolerance of Osama Bin Laden.
As I have commented on this blog before, in some respects PKS is worthy of much credit on behalf of democracy. In other respects, I worry about their intentions, for instance about banning Ahmadiyah. (I understand that Hidayat Nurwahid’s own concern about Ahmadiyah is that they call themselves Muslim. If they stop doing that, if they say their prophet is Mirza and not Muhammed, they just leave Islam, and must be respected and tolerated for their religion: See: http://www.pk-sejahtera.org/2006/index.php?op=isi&id=4754 . It is not all clear to me how the rest of the party feels).
I am not saying FPI is one thing only. But if you look at racist groups in Europe, they are not one thing either. They have some violent groups of thugs (like some parts of FPI and their friends in Laskar Jihad). And then there are citizen groups that are not violent, but who spew hate speech constantly, who are opposed to the building of mosques in Europe for instance, who claim that ‘oh, all the one billion plus Muslims are out to get us’. And finally, we have ‘respectable’ political parties, with the same kinds of ideas, though in a lighter form.
So this is my view: Anti-toleration is anti-toleration no matter if its name is Front Pembela Islam or it is some group in Europe struggling against the building of mosques because on their view “Islam is the root of all trouble”.
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Look, comparing the FPI with the Nazis is nothing more than a mere attempt to inflame debate and a fishing expedition for a response!
The idea though that Ahmadiyya could end this thing by simply decalring themselves to be a new religion and have no claims that associate it with Islam is ludicrous in the extreme. It reeks of naivety and plays to the stereotype of intolerant Islam.
Ahmadiyya’s roots are clearly Islamic and the tenets of their faith appear to rely heavily on Islamic tradition. The problem is the interpretation of this tradition and the necessary manipulation of these traditions to ensure that the Islam practiced by Ahmadiyya fits into the global Islam picture as they see it.
The analogy here from Christianity, and there are probably many that could be used, is the Church of England! King Henry VIII decided he needed a divorce the Catholic Church said no, the King said I do not need your permission and I will make a Church of my own, and thus was born the Church of England (perhaps my description is a little short on detail but the general outline is true).
The Church of England does not cease to be part of the Christian faith because of divergent beliefs or the history of its establishment. The Catholic Church might not consider it to be true Christianity but it does not seek to ban it! The best the current Pope could come up with when slandering Protestants was to say that Protestant churches were not real churches but merely a place of worship. He did not say that Protestantism was not a Christian faith.
The point here is that Ahmadiyya cannot renounce the Islamic origins of its establishment nor can it change the circumstances of its founding (some suggest it was merely founded to appease the British colonial government of India at the time) and to suggest that it can is naive at best!
If I am not mistaken the Constitution guarantees freedom of religious practice and Pancasila only demands a belief in one true God, Ahmadiyya would fall into this definition. The fact that Indonesia supposedly only recognizes six different faiths is used to cloud a bigger issue and that is whether Ahmadiyya has a right to exist and if that right includes any guarantees to practice their particular brand of faith as they see fit!
The debate is bigger than FPI and Nazi similarities, it is bigger than the PKS, and it is probably bigger than the Constitution and Pancasila as the core arguments here go to the heart of what is Islam?
And this means that the answers to the big question have to come from Islam and this answer will be determined when the struggle between fundamental and moderate Islam is decided. I am not sure that this will be any time soon…
One and all — have a good weekend!
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FO says:
please search SOA over google “¦ to update your knowledge into more higher level
Perhaps you should go to Amazon.com and buy yourself some Learn-English-by-Yourself books. You know, to “update your knowledge into more higher level”.
On topic, when will the government wake up and drag those FPI thugs to prison, where they belong? If those demented f*ckwits don’t like acknowledging the government’s authority on this and other matters, then they should move to some godforsaken desert country in the Middle East.
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Rob (and Rambutan),
“Look, comparing the FPI with the Nazis is nothing more than a mere attempt to inflame debate and a fishing expedition for a response!”I agree that ‘enflamed’ debate is seldom a good debate, so I would like to have chosen my words more carefully.
Note, however, two things:
First, that I did say a ‘kinship’, I did not say that they were exactly the same.
Second, that the implicit criticism of pointing out the kinship between FPI and nazis is directed equally toward European groups deploying hate speech and endorsing discrimination of Muslims.
Anyway, I agree with you that Nurwahid’s suggestion is not particularly tolerant in itself. Ahmadiyah clearly has Islamic roots, and the disagreements between Ahmadiyahns and various types of Muslims are similar to the many division within the Christian church(es). It would seem to me that Mormons believe in a prophet after Jesus whereas most other people who label themselves Christian do not.
The point of mentioning PKS was more to say that of course there are degrees of toleration. I am saying that (despite what many people think) we have the exact same spectrum of intolerance-tolerance in Europe. An astounding amount of people in Europe seem to believe that somehow at some point tolerance was invented here, and therefore remains with us as an essence, regardless of our actions and policies. “We are tolerant, period”, seems to be the view. Again, this view is mirrored in statements by violent Muslim groups when they defend beatings of Christians by reference to Islam’s great history of toleration. It is, in my view, a perverted logic, but one that is found on both sides.
This might not have been clear, but my intention is rather to dismiss distinctions of ‘moderate Islam’ and ‘extreme Islam’, and stick to tolerance/intolerance, plain and simple. I am sure your view is not that FPI are somehow ‘more Islamic’, but that, alas, is how things are portrayed by racist groups here in Europe.
I should like to get a clearer understanding of FPI, and would happy to learn that they are less like the nazis than I think at present.
Have a good weekend everyone,
trane
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Ahmadiyah mosque, Masjid Al-Furqon, in Sukabumi, West Java got burned down by a mob on the 28th. They also damaged an Ahmadiyah school.
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Sigh. But again, thans for keeping us posted on this.
I see from the link that a local group performed a communal prayer, as I read it to invite Ahmadiyans to repent and return to the faith of the majority. Ahmadiyans, however, declined, stressing their freedom to follow faith as they choose.
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Djalal says:
See this call for prosecution (elimination) of Ahmadyiah member by FPI
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violet says:
I watched TV last night and hear about the Governor of Central Java promise to protects any Ahmadiyah followers. Really glad to hear that, that some people can still think with their heart handle this issue. Since I agree with Rob that “Constitution guarantees freedom of religious practice and Pancasila only demands a belief in one true God”.
And the Governor of Central Java did respect that Pancasila.
I’ve been wonder, why Javanese people can be more wise handle this issue than people in west Java (or should I say Sundanese)??? -
Achmad Sudarsono says:
Mr. Djalal Yth,
I think it’s better if you study the Pancasila. Oke ?
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Purba Negoro says:
Some of you people are utter twits.
Ahmidiyah is a Pakistani SECT.
Wahabism is a Saudi SECT.
Branch Davidians of Waco are also a SECT.
Sects are dangerous like the Cool Aid cultists.
All of the Western commentators dare have such gall to claim some knowledge of a religion they do not even practice yet alone understand?
Ahimdiyah is a dangerous sect- NOT a religion.
Sufi Islam native to Indonesia must be preserved at all costs from Middle Eastern Islamic Imperialism most especially the Saudi’s and Pakistanis seeking to hire more Jihadis by stealth.After the fall of Suharto- millions of Saudi dollars flowed into Indonesia and pesantren where built wherever possible. The end result of no Nationalist in charge?
Jema’ah Islamiyah returns from its’ rat-hole in Malaysia- where the Malays had conveniently turned a blind eye to their Arab chums’ troublemakers.FPI is nothing more than a bully group. Playboy was banned because the arrogant Chinese editor thought he could avoid paying their bribes- not to mention it was such an easy target for them.
We all know porno has been around since Sukarno’s days at least- but the difference is it’s not shoved in conservatives’ faces.Indonesia is not a Western cosmopolitan society. It is a society of 5 religions only- with very strict definitions. This is also why we also do not allow Jehovah’s Witness and Salvation Army- exactly like the white (and therefore to the Leftist bigots here civilised) nation of Russia.
Also no Shia. Why?
Too many religions creates community disharmony- and Indonesia is always teetering on the knife edge of some ethnic or religious conflict.
Harmony must be enforced at all costs.As a Nationalist and a Muslim, myself, I fully welcome all efforts to purge ourselves of this foreign infestation- these Ahmidiyah. Fire suffices nicely.
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Is Sufi Islam “native” to Indonesia?
Or is the native part the part where uniquely Indonesian elements or perhaps “flavours” are incorporated into the practice of Islam here in Indonesia?
I am hoping to learn something hence the question…I always thought that Islam was brought to Indonesia by Arab traders (at least that was what I was taught) and once here it took on a distinctly Indonesia flavour…
PN you can educate me on this one without resorting to the colourful additions of me being some ignorant leftist full of bluster and no substance as it is a serious question 🙂 If you cannot educate without the additional colour then educate me in full colour!
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gigi says:
If Ahmadiyah claimed to be a new religion rather than an offshoot of Islam, than they have the right to exist. But being a blasphemous and heretical sect, they should be banned and even abolished. If not, they will be forever be an insult for Muslims everywhere.
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Lairedion says:
Well, some West Java cities and regencies couldn’t wait any longer:
West Java city outlaws Ahmadiyah sect -
JJ says:
I think everyone should stop thinking about religion and start thinking about people’s lives and how to make Indonesia better, for everyone, not for one religion.
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It seems that a potential dilemma exists, doesn’t it?