Suharto & the People
Jan 18th, 2008, in History, Opinion, by Achmad SudarsonoSuharto: Let the People Speak, Please Help Indonesia Matters do an informal poll.
Suharto: Let the People Speak, Please Help Indonesia Matters do an informal poll.
Friend,
The alleged near-death of Indonesia’s former strongman President Soeharto has dominated the news and Indonesia Matters discussion in the past two weeks.
Was he a bloodthirsty despot or nation builder? Both? Were his economic achievements tarnished by corruption and human rights abuses? Were there any lasting economic achievements to balance against the reported human rights abuses?
Is it disrespectful to the memory of alleged victims to the regime to even ask these questions? Some would say so.
I invite you all, (with a nod from Patung), to help with an informal poll of a near-silent voice in all of this: the Indonesian people.
I’m inviting all Indonesia Matters posters and readers to contribute to an informal poll. Here’s the idea:
Ask three Indonesian people in your everyday life these questions:
1. Enakkan hidup di Jaman Soeharto atau sekarang? Kenapa? (Was life better under Soeharto or now? Why?)
2. Kalau nilai Soeharto sebagai President bagaimana? (What’s your evaluation of Soeharto).
I’d call on people to focus on working class or poor Indonesians. The middle class and articulate have their outlets. The voices of the ordinary people in English language media are all too often drowned out by the ramblings of people such as myself and middle class Western commentators.
This is not a scientific poll, but the Blogosphere is supposed to liberate us from the tyranny of the “mainstream media” so let’s use it! We’re all busy people, but over the next few days or so, we should at least be able to manage a few questions to the sopir, maid, satpam, shop attendant, bus driver, tukang ojek, penjual sekoteng.
Please, if you’d like to join, try not to indicate an opinion one way or another, or ask leading questions. Just ask. Please also try to get names, ages, and professions, and if you change the name, please also indicate, just for transparency.
I promise to update after lunch.
Merdeka!
Achmad (temporarily returning from retirement).
88 Comments on “Suharto & the People”
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Oigal says:
Getting drunk at the Hotel Dili doesn’t mean anything. Can’t help yourself can you, but like the rest of your litany of half truths and lies well off the mark..
Still, Lets just assume your “blood for growth” econmic theory is morally justifable for a second. I would be curious to know what the ratio is (deaths to % growth) before it becomes too much in your world and is no longer a defence.
Whilst on all this growth and development, I would be interested to know what legacy is really left behind after those 30 years.. You tout education? perhaps its the massive PLN, water, roads infrastructure that had been left as legacy.
Development and growth seems to be somewhat fleeting or have I missed that part of the country.
they are uneducated and uninformed.
How can this be true? AS has spent days explaining to us poor blind souls that development and education were a key legacy, surely he is not telling half truths?
“but you just refuse to see what you should see with your smartness. You choose to use your smartness to bring the uneducated and uninformed become dumb for the sake of your personal hidden agenda.”
And there is the rub, for over 30 years, the poor soul out in the villages has at best sub-standard education with a constant stream of floss dressed up as fact spat him every day (sort of a watered down “dear leader” recitation). The ones who could afford a better education and had the adantages that the other 98% almost invariably owed their good fortune to the big “S”, so you are hardly likely to get a rational or objective viewpoint from them as AS has so aptly demonstrated.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Oigal,
Simple question: why the poor people they say this ? Your view.
Secondly, no one’s saying Indonesia’s a developed country or people are well off here.
Then on this “blood for economic growth theory.” Your words.
Well, all I’m saying is if you’re assessing Soeharto, you need to look at both sides of the balance sheet.
I’d like your honest view on changes in living standards from the late ’60s to the mid ’90s.
I think in poor countries, economic rights have to be part of the overall human rights basket. I go for the ‘entitlement approach’ — by Amartya Sen. (see wikipedia).
I think once we’ve got the living standards issue sorted out, we can start making the philosophical judgements about Soeharto.
You seem to be saying that you shouldn’t. The ‘rakyat’ seem to see things differently.
Ytre,Which countries were big overpopulated, and better than Indonesia ? I don’t which ones you mean. I don’t think you can compare Indonesia to Malaysia, (much smaller), Thailand (more ethnically and geographically homogenous), or Korea (better starting point, geographically & ethnically homogenous).
You don’t need to ask poor people, you can ask me and I will give the same answer.
That’s an interesting attitude. Why shouldn’t we ask the poor people ?
Besides, Oigal and Ytre, they never said Soeharto was a hero. They said they were better off in economic terms before Reformasi.You haven’t been listening. By why listen ? They’re only poor people.
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Janma says:
Achmad,
when I talked to the people I talked to about Soeharto…. (I did ask many more in the following days…) many said, economy was better then. so then I asked….
Did you have a motor bike then?
NO
Did you have a hand phone then?
NO
Do you have these things now?
YES
Do you have enough to eat now?
YESso what is really different? More stability in prices maybe….
I would say, that economic advancement could have been done without all the blood spilt.
I would say that he (Soeharto) could have done way better.
I would say that the ‘rakyat’ you wanted us to ask don’t really know arthur from martha….
I would say people are fickle
I would say that not only poor people are ‘rakyat’ and other classes of people with money, a little or a lot are also ‘rakyat’, and they have something very different to say. -
Janma,
That’s all cool. I’m just saying they said what they said.
The Rakyat once believed the earth was flat. Pak Pono above also, if you read his comments, blamed all sorts of natural disasters, including the Gunung Merapi rumblings on SBY.
People once thought smoking was healthy. People believe all sorts of stuff.
the ‘rakyat’ you wanted us to ask don’t really know arthur from martha”¦.
Interesting attitude, though. I’d say Ibu Sinthia, the housewife above, has a pretty good idea of household spending.
Another person who didn’t really trust the people was Soeharto. In fact, I think we’ve established elsewhere the Rakyat spilled alot of blood themselves. What do those nice Balinese villagers do to Javanese thieves, Janma ?
Soeharto’s Repelita 1 program tried to do things ‘on behalf’ of the people — primary schools, roads etc.
In a democracy, the will of the people is supposed to be important. Indonesia’s a democracy now and surely that’s a good thing. Or isn’t it ?
Or should they just trust us to do it for them.
No easy answers folks.
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well, I’ll ask some other ‘rakyat’ as well….. see what they say…. professors, teachers, business people etc.
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Janma,
Cool. Do you want to start another separate posting subject — say “what the educated people say about Soeharto ” might get more of a fair hearing that way, instead of getting buried here.
Achmad.
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No…. why should you separate them? You said to ask rakyat right? ordinary people? Well aren’t they ordinary people too? Or are you worried they might mess up our other findings?
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Unless of course you are kicking me off your thread…. 😉 in which case I’ll do the female version of the gentlemanly thing and bow out…… 🙂
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Janma,
Sure they’re rakyat. Put it here if you want. I’ll be happy to join in.
The thing is, we already have their opinion: the Indonesians on Indonesia Matters.
The reason I suggested talking to poor Indonesians is they’re much more representative.
We might, in the end, find opinion about Soeharto is divided on class grounds.
This isn’t a scientific survey, but just a vox pop. I think randomly asking teachers, businesspeople, doctors, you’ll get a different opinion and it’d be worth displaying it prominently.
I’m happy to set up this vox pop (not a poll) if you want, but won’t be able to do it till Monday.
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It’s true, we do have a representitive of them on IM….. hmmmm…
I even asked myself and had two different answers before breakfast! -
dewaratugedeanom says:
I think that blaming Indonesia’s wrongs solely on its heads of state – be their name Suharto, Soekarno, Gus Dur, Megawati, SBY, what else – is just looking for a scapegoat. Admittedly their decisions have impacts on the well-being of their subjects, without a power base the leader of a nation is merely an individual, just like you and me. Leaders emerge through parties, societal foundations (LSM), religious institutions, economic structures, and organizations for internal and external security which continue to provide them support during the time of their reign. Take away the power base and they crumble. As a head of state his/her only personal credit is the ability to manage the chaos.
To assess the condition of a nation under a certain leader it would be better to use the company bookkeeper’s approach: draw up a balance sheet of a country’s assets (strengths) and liabilities (weaknesses), weigh each of them to give them a value and examine the profit and loss account.
Maybe this would be nice exercise for another poll. -
draw up a balance sheet of a country’s assets (strengths) and liabilities (weaknesses), weigh each of them to give them a value and examine the profit and loss account.
What kind of value would you suggest?
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What kind of value would you suggest?
That’s what the poll would be about. Ask the question what is important for a country and give it a rating from 1 to 100.
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Folks,
I’ve got a good couple of ideas.
1. Ask Bules over 30:
* Do they think Indonesians have a strong work ethic?
* What do they think overall of Indonesian levels of competence and motivation at work?2. Ask University educated Indonesians under 30, preferably in multinational companies:
* What do they think of the ‘human capital’ level of Bules in Indonesia versus overseas ?
* What do Bules contribute to Indonesia ? -
Secondly, no one’s saying Indonesia’s a developed country or people are well off here.
Well you did!
You have wasted our of time telling us about unmitigated 7% growth, schooling, investment that the Big S brought..So after 30 years of this, in the regions richest country both resource and human capitial wise, the question may well be Why isn’t Indonesia a fully developed country. Unless of course the growth and security you so fervantly use to justify the human rights issues, were in fact based on massive debt, nepotism and ulitimately an illusion.
As for your last post racist and ageist..daily double of the inane ..well done
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Thanks for sharing, Oigal.
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P.S., as opposed to what, an inclusive title like “Australia for the White Man” ?
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Pakmantri says:
The same questions had been asked during the Suharto era (ORBA) to the Indonesians.
And their answers were, thing were better during the Sukarno era ( they call it “jaman normal”). Specially the farmers and the people in the villages said it.And the same questions were also asked during the Sukarno era; and the answers were things were better during the Dutch time.
But everybody agree that the Japanese occupations was the hardest of time.
People tend to have a selected memories about the days gone by, they tends to remember the good but not the bad things. Or maybe people just like to whine and complains …………. 😀
The most important thing is what are we going to do for the future of this beloved country of ours?
Peace.
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Pakmantri,
Proof ?
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Dragonwall says:
How come people are opening the pandora box now and not then?
Like what Arema said. And somehow throughout the years he managed to give some sense of pride to all Indonesians for being an Indonesian.
Is Indonesian an Indonesian now? Does Indonesian’s have any pride now? Indonesians are known as cannibals now, if we compare what Soeharto did to ensure the general public’s interest is protected by doing what he has to do to get things done.
In any country they are the same, Chun Do Hwan, Park Chung Hee, Albert Fujimora, the celebrity president of Philippines, Aroyo..Marcos, everyone. Even Mahatir or perhaps LKY. What they did were all the same…….MONEY. But there are some that limit their activites to strictly to certain extent of favoritism.During his final years was the frenziest of all time when all the pejabats, officials, politician, opposition and cornies started their last ditch in ‘kerokin’ all the money the government has and what’s lying at the AG office seems heaven can wait. That is why he was until his final years being called the most corrupt leader. In actual fact he is not if you were to put a microscope and see thing vividly.
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Carefull, Dragonwall, you’ll get accused of justifying “genocide”…; p
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You mean that by saying if we compare what Soeharto did to ensure the general public’s interest is protected by doing what he has to do to get things done.
I will be accused of justifying genocide.It all depends on who is talking and who is listening.
If you understand the whole meaning on the topi discuss, then by understanding what that person is doing do not necessarily mean that I condone or justify genocide.
If you need to run a country of tht many hundred million, and going into war is two different scope.
No one is condonig genocide.
One also needs to understand the situation be reliving what happened at that time and the political condition that existed and prevail.
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What this whole discussion comes down to is a simply, but divisive question, always guaranteed to divide the class:
Does the ends justify the means ?
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This is more an acceptable question.
Most leaders promises to lead a country to win en election but ends up doing nothing but plent of money in their own or their kin’s pocket.
There was a Central African ruler who was under the French alliance and he got himself a golden chair and let his people suffers. Of course there were many killings on those that oppose him.
Ther was also another African strongman that promotes himself from Colonel to a General and rule the country and fed dignitaries with human flesh, all from people killed by his army.In China there were also many that oppose to MST and was killed. later came someone who almost wiped out Falun Gong and the Tian An Men Massacre.
You just weigh which one is justifiable.
As for Soeharto, let us say it was you AS that was in the shoes of Soeharto on the PKI issue. What must you do to save the country. There are always some sacrifice to save the majority. He might not be doing the right things, yes I agree but the consition and situation does not permit him to continue his leading this country without removing certain bad elements. Some of his men may have overdo it that becomes obvious.
After that, there was the Priok case by Benny Murdani and Try Sutrisno.
Throughout the process of such an action by the military, has the country prosper? Yes they did. But right now on and after the 1998 riot Indonesia is moving backward, not progressing, hyperinflation, currency kept sliding and high employment rates, and increase in criminal activities.
We all take all these factors and place them on the table and analyze to get to the bottomline and weighs what was done, are they justifiable. If one is going to look into just something like, Oh right now I have no money, I can;t get food. This is where you get the answer which one does a better job.
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daray says:
I agree with what some people said in this forum. What do you mean by “better”?
I question myself what kind of leader I would prefer such as the one whom mass murdered almost a million people, made the top ranking of corruption league (alleged sum of US$35 billion), and put a constant fear of Indonesian government in people minds, as well as didn’t think my vote count coz he was on the ‘throne’ for 32 years such as President Suharto, or the one that killed Jews people like Hitler, or the drug dealer like Fidel, or maybe a more decent leader like Sukarno in his early years where he stood up for Indonesian Independence, or Martin Luther King that started the American Civil Right Movements, or Abraham Lincoln that freed the slave?
I know that Suharto has excelled in some economic situations;however, would my family have a car, my kids go to great schools, or even would I be able to own a home during his regime? I would doubt this. It took my parents 20 years before they could afford to buy a car. I think this new era gives more opportunity to people to ‘move up’ than the old era. -
The word better definitely would mean to compare that many presidents after Soeharto was impeached. How many of them does a better job in keeping up with inflation and security of Indonesia!
People only knows they are poor, oh yes I agree. When people do not want to improve and move ahead they will stand still in time because you are what you are.
But if you want to improve and do something to better yourself, then will there be a change in you living environment.
My wife lives in Medan and at the age of 15 she started working part time while still schooling. After her father’s business gone bust, she quit schooling and find a job. She later moves herself to Jakarta to get a job and then move the whole family there.
They might be some who thinks that we are bragging. But for us, it took her about ten years when we were married and started to amass assets and we don’t need those corruption stuffs. No speculations, just buy and sell. Go asked anyone and see what they say about business then and now. Despite the presence of discrimination, it is even worse now sort of to say. Racism, hatred, vengeance..you just name it.
So
It took my parents 20 years before they could afford to buy a car. I think this new era gives more opportunity to people to ‘move up’ than the old era.
Did you father had other things other than the car and what kind of car a brand new one?. In fact during the Soeharto era the environment were much secure than now. Are you able to buy anything nowadays?
So which is better. Democracy in Indonesia is dead….noughts… talk only.
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zekky says:
Whilst I consider myself middle class, most of my Indonesian family is probably lower working class, especially the older generation, and I’ve never heard a bad word said about Pak Harto, not even today.
Even when my family criticises secularism, they never criticise Pak Harto’s fairly secular policies.
Either there was a cult of Pak Harto among certain lower-class Indonesians, or many just liked the guy.
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@Ytre
Agree with you, the rakyat are uneducated and uninformed. In the land of the blinds, one-eye is king! That explains his popularity among the rakyat.
Oh, slighly off the topic, but there were some articles in Kompas re. “Gelar kepahlawanan Soeharto”. Come on, this is the biggest insult to all our true Indonesian heroes.