Persecuted Church
Jan 21st, 2008, in News, by PatungWhy there are so many attacks on churches in western Java.
Persecuted Churches Nationally
On 14th January members of the Himpunan Warga Gereja Indonesia (HAGAI), Indonesian Churchgoers Association, visited the offices of the National Human Rights Commission, (Komnas HAM) in Jakarta to complain about attacks against churches and Christian congregations around the country.
Pastor Alma Shepard Supit of HAGAI said:
We’re asking that Komnas make very clear its position on religious freedom, that preventing people from performing their religious obligations is a violation of human rights.
The pastor said that in 2007 there were 18 cases of churches being attacked, or forced to close, or vandalised.
Greater Jakarta
He also cited data from the Jakarta Christian Communication Forum that between September 1969 and March 2006 950 churches had been vandalised or burned down, while between March 2006 and August 2007 67 church congregations had suffered intimidation or disturbances from outsiders.
Presently Supit said dozens of churches in the greater Jakarta area found themselves in a “tense” situation.
Another pastor, Novi Suratinoyo, blamed the government for not enforcing the law, and the police for often standing by while church attacks took place.
Idfal Kasim of Komnas HAM said his group often received reports of this nature but regretted that their recommendations rarely carried any force with the authorities. antara
Solo/Surakarta
In Central Java at Christmas 2007 Surakarta police chief Yotce Mende said that 85 out of the 500 churches in the city were considered by the police to be under threat of attack or had problems with local Muslim residents. detik
Why West Java (& Solo)?
Indonesianist Sidney Jones wondered on 3rd January 2008 why West Java was the scene of so many anti-Christian disturbances (and not, presumably, East Java):
It is not clear why religious vigilantism has been such a problem in West Java.
And offered one possible explanation:
one theory is that aggressive Protestant evangelicalism there has made inroads in strongly Muslim communities, creating fears of “Christianization”.
However she noted that deviant Islamic communities such as Ahmadiyah often suffer a worse fate in West Java (and perhaps are not seen as proselytizing like the evangelicals). crisisgroup
This article in Indonesian – Pengrusakan Terhadap Gereja.
59 Comments on “Persecuted Church”
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Peter says:
What a lively discussion. 🙂
Lairedion said:
As I said Hinduism is a little bit tricky. You must not confuse Brahman with Brahma, who is one of the trimurti, next to Shiva and Vishnu.
Yes yes. Hinduism is harder to understand than Islam, but at the core of it there is only one Reality, which is Brahman. Basically that means that not only is there only one God, there is only one reality – which is God. A little tricky to wrap one’s mind around, admittedly. All else – me, you, the various deities – is simply part of the the myriad manifestations of Brahman.
Think of all forms and beings simply as differently shaped blocks of ice floating on an ocean. Though different shapes and textures appear in the ice & waves (i.e. “things”), all of it is really just water (i.e. God or Brahman). This sense of “God”, clearly, is far different than the Judeo-Christian/Islamic conception of a personal, arbitrating God, who exists as a separate entity from ourselves and the world. I guess monism vs. monotheism, as was stated earlier. (You can look up “monism” on Wikipedia and there is a section discussing Hinduism.)
But, whether the Quran enjoins Muslims to respect Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, or followers of Bahai as much as the “People of the Book”, is dubious. There are no explicit statements on the treatment of these groups in the Quran, so it is only a matter of speculation for us. It can only be assumed that these groups are lumped into the category of “unbelievers”. Jews and Christians are the only groups to be distinguished. I know that many people see the Quran & Islam as perfect, but they won’t always measure up to our ideals, I’m afraid.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Peter said:
It can only be assumed that these groups are lumped into the category of “unbelievers”.
Please don’t just assume. Use study, research, reason and intelligence to formulate a view.
First you have to define “unbelievers”, from a Quranic viewpoint it is simpler to define who is a believer:
Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62
As to whether any of the groups you mentioned believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, that is a decision for only God to make.
As to respect:
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 16:125Peace
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Janma says:
Peter, I find hinduism easier to understand than islam… and your ice explanation was great! spot on!
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Sputjam says:
Peter said –
Yes yes. Hinduism is harder to understand than Islam, but at the core of it there is only one Reality, which is Brahman. Basically that means that not only is there only one God, there is only one reality – which is God. A little tricky to wrap one’s mind around, admittedly. All else – me, you, the various deities – is simply part of the the myriad manifestations of Brahman.
This is the muslim version from the Koran –
This worldly life is no more than play and distraction, while the abode of the Hereafter is the reality, if they only knew.(29.64)
2:255 God – there is no god except He – the living – Self sustain – Never slumber – Never sleep – To Him belongs whatever in the skies and whatever in the earth. Who is the one that will intercede by Him – except with His permission? He knows whatever between their hands and whatever that was behind them. And they can never know with anything from His knowledge – except with whatever He wills. The dominance of His throne encompasses all the skies and the earth – and it never burdens Him in managing them – and He is the uppermost – The great.
or2:255 God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in heavens and in the Earth. Who will intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the Earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.
There was no invitation for mankind to embrace the religion of islam in the koran. you are merely advised to beleive in God and the hereafter and do good and righteous deeds.
If the man posses no knowledge, but deep inside, he believes in God, all he have to do is seek God’s asistance in guiding him on the straight path, wherever, whenever, in any direction. Seeking advise from Imams and clerics will lead you astray. These are the messages decribed in the koran.Peter queried –
1. But, whether the Quran enjoins Muslims to respect Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, or followers of Bahai as much as the “People of the Book”, is dubious. There are no explicit statements on the treatment of these groups in the Quran, so it is only a matter of speculation for us. It can only be assumed that these groups are lumped into the category of “unbelievers”. Jews and Christians are the only groups to be distinguished. I know that many people see the Quran & Islam as perfect, but they won’t always measure up to our ideals, I’m afraid
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And the Koran states –There is no compulsion in God’s orderly way of life
2:256 There is no compulsion in the orderly way of life. Certainly it is now clear between the guidance from the wrong ones. Thus whoever denies the virtual idols and he believes with God alone – thus – indeed he holds with the strongest bond which can never be broken – for him. And God is listening – He is very conscious.
Present day muslim religionist are followers of a pagan arab religion. They do rituals around a stone, kill apostates or those who disbelieve in their faith and take their imams and clerics as advisors, and disregard God.
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Cukurungan says:
Khafi wrote
But are they worshipping the man rather than God? Al Quran says:
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. 2:62
There must be believing Christians, otherwise Allah would never have made this statement. As to who they are, we have to leave that decision to God, He clearly states:
Me :
But Quran also says:
[004:171] O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.[005:116] And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
God statement for the believing Christians was only applicable for the true Christian who life before God send down the Quran but after God send down the Quran, the applicable verse for them is the following:
[003:085] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). -
raden says:
This is not a new topic, since Soeharto era there were attacks to churces, the difference there were ‘petrus’. The only solutions is Soeharto’s style of democracy, oh yes it is damn good for Indon.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Mohammed Khafi said
As to Buddhists being atheist, is this correct? I have never heard or read a Buddhist making the statement that God does not exist. I think it would be better to describe them as Agnostic?
My bad; I should have said ‘non-theist’ as Lairedion correctly pointed out, ‘atheism’ carrying the notion of active denial whilst ‘agnosticism’ the notion of ‘not knowing’. The term ‘non-theistic’ is more apt because it implies ‘non-relevance’.
When discussing issues pertaining to religion it seems to me that we first should get our semantics right. An important element herein is the notion of Creation. The Middle Eastern (Abrahamic or Prophetic) dualistic religions consider creation as the wilful act of the Divine One to make something (the universe and everything in it) out of nothing. An immediate consequence hereof is the dependence of creation vis-Ã -vis its creator, who retains absolute authority and control. A further consequence is the responsibility of those created with the freedom of choice (humans) to account for their actions within the System. In order to help them (the humans) to cope with His design the Divine One sends revelations through prophets chosen among them. Coming directly from Himself this revelations also bear absolute authority.
Monist religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism – let’s call them ‘Wisdom religions’ because they are rather concerned with man’s struggle to understand and cope with the predicament of his existence in the world and to achieve emancipation, enlightenment, and unity with the Absolute – look upon Creation as the physical emanation from an Ultimate Reality of which it forms an integral part. In Hinduism this Ultimate Reality is called ‘brahman’ (often used without capital ‘B’ to stress its impersonality), in Buddhism ‘Dharmakaya’ (the Body of Being) and in Taoism ‘Tao’ (The Way). Although in Hinduism there is a creator god i.e. Brahma, he didn’t create the universe out of nothing but from a primeval cosmic egg (the state of the universe before the Big Bang ??) As Janma already said he isn’t often worshipped but merely considered a demiurge. All gods from the Hindu pantheon are considered manifestations of Brahman, the Ultimate Reality, each embodying specific aspects of how Brahman presents itself in the universe.
An often used metaphor to describe the Ultimate Reality and ‘Creation’ is ‘the foam on the ocean’. If Brahman constitutes the ocean then the universe is like the foam on its waves. The foam emerges from the ocean, becomes manifest and then is reabsorbed, in a countless number of ways. One cannot say that the water deliberately creates the foam. Both are aspects of the same reality.Both visions however have far reaching consequences. While in dualistic religions the onus lies on obedience and judgement, even submission, monist religions tend to strive for harmony and development of the ‘self’. As the ‘self’ (‘atman’ or individual soul) and the ‘Self’ (Brahman) are basically one and the same – Sa Atman; Tat Tvam Asi (this is the soul; you are That, Chandogya Upanishad 6.9.4) an absolute blasphemy in the eyes of Muslims – it is the vocation of the ‘atman’ to realise through self-development this identity and to reach enlightment or moksha (Hindu) / nirwana (Buddhist). This is the way Brahman works in the world, by offering itself through maya (the cosmic force that presents the infinite Brahman as the finite phenomenal world) to become the world which in his turn becomes Brahman again.
In simple words: The universe is a process in which the Ultimate Reality takes part and It is our role to unite with him and become the God that resides in our minds.
Lairedion quite accurately described Hinduism as a bit ‘tricky’ because it is not so much a ‘Religion’ in the strict sense but rather a composite of diverse doctrines, cults and ways of life. In principle, Hinduism incorporates all forms of belief and worship without necessitating the selection or elimination of any. It is axiomatic that no religious idea in India ever dies or is superseded””it is merely combined with the new ideas that arise in response to it. Hindus are inclined to revere the divine in every manifestation, whatever it may be, and are doctrinally tolerant, allowing others””including both Hindus and non-Hindus””whatever beliefs suit them best. A Hindu may embrace a non-Hindu religion without ceasing to be a Hindu, and because Hindus are disposed to think synthetically and to regard other forms of worship, strange gods, and divergent doctrines as inadequate rather than wrong or objectionable, they tend to believe that the highest divine powers complement one another. The core of religion does not depend on the existence or non-existence of God or on whether there is one god or many. Because religious truth is said to transcend all verbal definition, it is not conceived in dogmatic terms. Moreover, the tendency of Hindus to distinguish themselves from others on the basis of practice (orthopraxy) rather than doctrine (orthodoxy) further de-emphasizes doctrinal differences.
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Mohammed Khafi said
Because Allah does not explain to us who he sent these messengers to, it is simple logic that we cannot reject anybody as having received Divine Revelation, we after all are only human and do not know. What we do know from Al Quran is that Allah, wants us to accept that He is our only creator.
I am certainly no expert on Hindu Veda’s but have gleaned this information from Rig Veda, which I am lead to believe is the oldest Veda:
“O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone.” [RV. 8:1:1]
“Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator.” [RV. 5:1:81]Although the defining characteristic of Hindu belief is the recognition of the Vedas as the most ancient body of religious literature and as an absolute authority revealing fundamental truth, its content has long been practically unknown to most Hindus, and it is seldom drawn upon for literal information or advice.
In Hinduism revelation is generally viewed as a process whereby the religious seeker, actuating his deeper spiritual powers, escapes from the world of change and illusion and comes into contact with Ultimate Reality. The sacred books are held to embody revelation insofar as they reflect the eternal and necessary order of things.
The notion of revelation in the specific sense of a divine self-communication is more apparent in Western than in Eastern religions.The Bhagavadgita can be described as a synopsis of Hindu doctrine and at the same time an attempt to reconcile different Indian philosophies i.e. Samkhya, Yoga, Advaita Vedanta, and theist vs. non-theist theology. It is still the most influential Indian religious text, although not considered a revelation. Its important contribution was the new emphasis placed on devotion, which has since remained a central path in Hinduism. In addition, the popular theism evidenced elsewhere in the Mahabharata (the epic of which it is a part) and the transcendentalism of the Upanishads converge, and a God of personal characteristics is identified with the brahman of the Vedic tradition. In its three disciplines the Bhagavadgita gives a typology of the three dominant trends of Indian religion: dharma-based Brahmanism, enlightenment-based asceticism, and devotion-based theism.
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Cuk,
You are quite correct about trinity, all worship should be for God alone, but that is not an exuse for destroying the Christian places of worship and persecuting the Christians, as Sputjam pointed out, “there is no compulsion” 2.256
God tells us:
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 16:125
“Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. 60:8
“And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book , those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.” 3:199
“Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.” 3:113-114
With regard to destruction of churches, Allah says this:
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah’s repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty. 22:40
If Allah defends “cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques” why should the followers of his religion feel compelled to destroy them?
If Allah says that there are Christians and Jews who “rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works:” Why would true followers of Islam persecute them, are these people endowed with Allahs right to decide who worships Him or who doesn’t?
You said:
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). 3:85
Islam is not the religion of Mohammed, it has been around since at least the time of Nabi Ibrahim:
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists. 3:67
Infact Mohammed was urged to say the following:
Say: Allah has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not one of the polytheists. 3:95
Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend. 4:125
Peace
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dewaratugedeanom said:
Although the defining characteristic of Hindu belief is the recognition of the Vedas as the most ancient body of religious literature and as an absolute authority revealing fundamental truth, its content has long been practically unknown to most Hindus, and it is seldom drawn upon for literal information or advice.
Sounds familiar? I asked earlier in the thread:
Maybe the Hindus are not following their divine scriptures?
Certainly the majortiy of the Jews don’t, as they substituted Torah with Talmud, the majority of Christians don’t, they substituted Injeel (The words of Nabi Isa) with the Gospels, and Mainstream Muslims have allowed themselves to be distracted from Al Quran by sunnah and hadith, why should the majority of Hindu’s be any different?
The Gita says:
“Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.”[Bhagavad Gita 7:20]
dewaratugedeanom, Janma, lairedion, peter, thank you all for your explanations of hinduism, buddhism and taoism, but I am a simple engineer, I have spent most of the last two days looking up words which I don’t understand and concepts which have left me quite dizzy! 😉 I do feel better informed than at the start, but am left wondering why people live with such complicated belief systems.
Speaking for myself, I can sum up my understanding of Islam quite simply. Submission to God, belief in the day of judgement, and the doing of good deeds.
Peace all.
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Cuk,
You are quite correct about trinity, all worship should be for God alone, but that is not an exuse for destroying the Christian places of worship and persecuting the Christians, as Sputjam pointed out, “there is no compulsion” 2.256
We are in full agreement that there is no compulsion in religion but it is also our full right to give a clear message that we are ready to do anything to protect our family and our neighbors from the fake teaching.
Islam is not the religion of Mohammed, it has been around since at least the time of Nabi Ibrahim:
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists. 3:67
Agree that Islam is the same religion brought by Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Budha and it could be Joyoboyo but after God send down the guarded Quran, there is no longer valid reason to refer back to the corrupted holy Book while the complete and detailed book of Quran has been available in the internet.
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Mohammad Khafi said;
dewaratugedeanom, Janma, lairedion, peter, thank you all for your explanations of hinduism, buddhism and taoism, but I am a simple engineer, I have spent most of the last two days looking up words which I don’t understand and concepts which have left me quite dizzy! 😉 I do feel better informed than at the start, but am left wondering why people live with such complicated belief systems.
Speaking for myself, I can sum up my understanding of Islam quite simply. Submission to God, belief in the day of judgement, and the doing of good deeds.
You see for me, Islam is too simplistic, controlling and judgmental. I mean one of the central themes is ‘The Day of Judgment’…. say no more, stop the ride and let me off!
In hinduisim there is the brahmajyoti, or the brahman, which is all pervading spiritual essence in everything. Makes sense to me.
About the Bhagavad Gita…. I have been trying to imagine if Hindu’s followed the Bhagavad Gita like Muslims do the Quran….. “shoot your relatives in the back! That a boy! Don’t fret! it’s OK….. they’re all eternal anyway!”
About destroying others places of worship…. Hindu’s do it too…. just remember Ayodya! -
Mohammed Khafi said
I do feel better informed than at the start, but am left wondering why people live with such complicated belief systems.
You said you are an engineer. To my knowledge engineers are used to deal with the complicated matters from the material world. So why should spiritual matters then suddenly have to be simple?
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Mohammed Khafi said:
Al Quran clearly states that Allah has sent messengers to all people:
For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), “Serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). 16:36
Cukurungan said:
Agree that Islam is the same religion brought by Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Budha and it could be Joyoboyo
According to my limited understanding of the Quran Allah has sent many messengers. Some were mentioned, Moses and Jesus were messengers, Ibrahim was a Hanif.
I find it impossible to comply Quran 16:36 with the teachings of Buddha and the prophecy of Joyoboyo because
– In the teachings of Buddhism God is not relevant and mentioned. Why would a messenger of God spread teachings where God has no role? Sounds odd to me.
– Joyoboyo was a king of the Hindu Kediri kingdom in the 12th century AD, famous for his prophecy and by some considered an incarnation of Vishnu.
There are some websites exploring the similarities between Islam and Buddhism and Islam and Hinduism but I cannot find these similarities in the core belief of mentioned religions.
@dewaratugedeanom and Peter
Thanks for confirming some observations I put here earlier. My knowledge of Hidnuism and Buddhism is fairly basic but I’m always eager to learn.
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Pak Khafi said:
Speaking for myself, I can sum up my understanding of Islam quite simply. Submission to God, belief in the day of judgement, and the doing of good deeds.
Hindus could sum up their religion just as easily, perhaps with something like: “Devotion to God, knowledge of Self (as being one with God), and dharma (something like “right/proper action”).” But in any case I think simplicity isn’t any measure of a religion’s merit. And simplicity is relative, anyway.
But as for Islam’s acceptance/tolerance of Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism,
The famous Sufi Mansur Al-Hallaj was put to death by the Caliphate, cut into pieces, and scattered across the earth for proclaiming “Ana al-Haq” (I am the Truth) in 922 CE (“al-Haq” is one of the 99 names of Allah). Hinduism’s Advaitic (non-dualistic) philosophy, then, is clearly a heresy in Islam. There is no question on this matter.
Buddhism makes no issue of the existence of God, like was said earlier. This is unacceptable as far as Islam is concerned. Perhaps one could be a Muslim with Buddhist ideas, but pure Buddhists have nothing to do with Allah, however loosely we interpret His name.
Taoism, like Buddhism is pretty much a-religious. It speaks about the nature of the world, but points to no God as creator, ruler, guardian, etc. Again this has nothing to do with any kind of Allah.
Christians & Jews are the only religious groups given distinction in al-Quran. And if one does not recognize Allah and Muhammad as His prophet, they are by definition a “kafir” or unbeliever. So there might perhaps be a very weak & far-fetched argument for the inclusion of Hindus as “Muslims”, but other than that all bets are off…
And by the way, excellent explanation, dewaratugedeanom! Better than I could have done!
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What a wonderful discussion here just recently, it makes a wonderful change from the bile and bigotry we normally face!
Cuk you said:
We are in full agreement that there is no compulsion in religion but it is also our full right to give a clear message that we are ready to do anything to protect our family and our neighbors from the fake teaching.
That is true, each and every one of us should have the opportunity to protect our family and neighbours from fake teachings, but when we say we are ready to do anything, for us as Muslims it must mean that we have to make sure that we strive harder to show the tolerant caring face of Islam and protect our children and neighbours from the fake teachings which advocate violence against others whose views we may not share.
“And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender”. 29: 46
I don’t agree with part of your second comment however:
…..God send down the guarded Quran, there is no longer valid reason to refer back to the corrupted holy Book while the complete and detailed book of Quran has been available in the internet.
Al Quran repeatedly says that it is a clarification of previous scriptures, and we are specifically told to accept the other prophets and what they brought:
Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. 3:84
“The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him by his Lord, and so do the believers. Each one believes in God and His angels and His Books and His Messengers. We do not differentiate between any of His Messengers. They say, “We hear and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord! You are our journey’s end.” 2:285
“To thee We sent the Scripture in truth confirming the scripture that came before it and guarding it in safety; so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed and follow not their vain desires diverging from the truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed He would have made you a single people but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”. 5: 48
Janma,
You spoke of the day of judgement, does Hinduism not have any judgement of a persons behaviour? Isn’t Karma part of Hindu belief, isn’t it a form of judgement?
Dewaratugedeanom said:
You said you are an engineer. To my knowledge engineers are used to deal with the complicated matters from the material world. So why should spiritual matters then suddenly have to be simple?
Engineering is simply a matter of dealng with the laws of physics, which at my level of engineering are relatively simple, however even this requires a certain type of innate intelligence which not all possess. Much as Economics requires a good understanding of mathematics and market forces, which also appear to require a certain innate intelligence as do many other skills. However spiritual matters are intended to apply to all peoples, and it would seem natural to me that they should be understandable by people of all levels of intelligence?
Lairedion you said:
In the teachings of Buddhism God is not relevant and mentioned. Why would a messenger of God spread teachings where God has no role? Sounds odd to me.
I don’t think I have said that the Buddha is a messenger of God, I said “Because Allah does not explain to us who he sent these messengers to, it is simple logic that we cannot reject anybody as having received Divine Revelation, we after all are only human and do not know. What we do know from Al Quran is that Allah, wants us to accept that He is our only creator.” Again this is purely from my viewpoint as a muslim.
Peter,
You said:
The famous Sufi Mansur Al-Hallaj was put to death by the Caliphate, cut into pieces, and scattered across the earth for proclaiming “Ana al-Haq” (I am the Truth) in 922 CE (“al-Haq” is one of the 99 names of Allah). Hinduism’s Advaitic (non-dualistic) philosophy, then, is clearly a heresy in Islam. There is no question on this matter.
Please don’t make the same mistakes as the Mainstream Muslims and their sunnah and hadith inspired sharia. The execution of Mansur Al-Hallaj, was as likely to be politically motivated as religiously. He was openly exposing a spiritual aspect of Islam which could ultimately have lead to the downfall of Orthodox Islam a religion described (and I quote):as a political system under which people are forced to put aside their freedom. It emphasizes on uniformity through Islamic Umma) rather than diversity. It is more ritual based rather than being spontaneous. It advocates a dress code for men and women; just like in schools, military barracks, or hospitals. It believes in a political system where a “Khalifa” or a deputy should be the ruler. It dictates rules on property distribution.
You said:
Christians & Jews are the only religious groups given distinction in al-Quran. And if one does not recognize Allah and Muhammad as His prophet, they are by definition a “kafir” or unbeliever. So there might perhaps be a very weak & far-fetched argument for the inclusion of Hindus as “Muslims”, but other than that all bets are off”¦
Speaking from the point of view of Al Quran, you are wrong on two points. The first is your contention that only Christians and Jews are given distinction by Islam. Al Quran clearly states that: “……whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall have nothing to fear or to regret.” in two seperate verses. Infact the Sabeans are also clearly mention in these verses as believing in God.
What has to be born in mind is that Al Quran although universal in its message of returning people to “The Book”, was sent specifically to the arabs who are described in its pages as being the biggest in disbelief, the Jews, Christians, Sabeans were the contemporaries of the Arabs, some Arabs actually practicing these other faiths, that is the reason that they are mention in Al Quran, because of their particular relevance to the people of the Prophet.
You are also wrong when you say “And if one does not recognize Allah and Muhammad as His prophet, they are by definition a “kafir” or unbeliever.” Nabi Ibrahim was a believer, as were all the other prophets, the people of the book who followed the practices given to them originally, are all believers. In fact “……whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall have nothing to fear or to regret.” are all believers. What you understand about Allah and the messenger and which the Mainstream Muslims proclaim daily in their prayers is not a prerequisite for being a Muslim. Islam is not the deen of Mohammed, it is the deen of Allah. Anybody who meets the criteria of belief in God, Judgement and the doing of Good deeds is by definition a Muslim, or Submitter.
The point that I have been trying to make all along is, that what is displayed as Orthodox Islam, is in fact a corruption of what was given by God. Humans have a great capacity for corruption and religion does not escape this. My belief is that all religions have been corrupted, but that if we were able to distill the essence of all religions we would be able to come to a common set of beliefs. This common set of beliefs should end all religious persecution, such as the Christians are suffering here.
Peace to you all.
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@Mas Khafi yth,
Thanks for your reply. I know you didn’t say Buddha was a messenger of God. I was questioning Cuk’s statement the religion brought by Buddha was Islam and I quoted Quran 16:36 which was written down here by you to explain my disagreement.
Reading back my comment it may seem I was also directing to you. My apologies, it was my reply to Mas Cuk.
It is indeed a wonderful discussion here. Most people here are eager to learn from one another. 🙂
My beliefs are that all humans are equal but not the same and subject to their surroundings and the ever changing world. It’s human nature to react and adopt to what’s happening around them and this human nature creates enormous cultural diversity and automatically different opinions, views, mindsets on all fields. Humans are constantly questioning and looking for answers. If these questions cannot be answered in what humans experience with their own eyes they tend to search for these anwers in spirituality (religion, belief, rituals and philosophy). This is an ongoing process which never stops.
After reading dewaratugedeanom’s comment:
Monist religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism – let’s call them ‘Wisdom religions’ because they are rather concerned with man’s struggle to understand and cope with the predicament of his existence in the world and to achieve emancipation, enlightenment, and unity with the Absolute – look upon Creation as the physical emanation from an Ultimate Reality of which it forms an integral part.
Maybe the concepts of the “wisdom” religions are more capable to answer and adapt to the ever changing world and universe.
Having said that I also feel for Mohammed Khafi’s beliefs:
Speaking for myself, I can sum up my understanding of Islam quite simply. Submission to God, belief in the day of judgement, and the doing of good deeds.
The simplicity is also its strength. It is a message of 100% tolerance which is essential if we want to get along with one another. Submission to God and belief in Judgement Day are absolute and the doctrine, doing of good deeds are actions or reactions to our environment in order to prevent war, poverty, violence and all ill-manners that’s disturbing our lives and our planet. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Correct me if I’m wrong, Mas Khafi!
Keep on talking guys and gals. Although sometimes offtopic this discussion is most entertaining and educational!
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Bu Janma
About destroying others places of worship”¦. Hindu’s do it too”¦. just remember Ayodya!
Earlier you mentioned that you have lived in India. Speaking of Ayodhya, does your IM nickname has anything to with the ancient Hindu temple, the Ram Janmabhoomi in this city?
Sorry if I’m nosy. -
Muliana Owoe says:
Why? It’s religious rivalry, that’s why. Does it find its origin in the different Doctrine of both camps? It might, but I attempt not to go to that direction, because it’s too broad and enormously complex an issue to start with. Church burnings and Christian persecutions happen not only in Indonesia. It happens in Africa, India, Pakistan, you name it. It happens even in Europe and US. But Indonesia since its inception in 1945 may be very proud of being labelled as the No. 1 Church burner and Christian persecutor in the whole wide world, because it has destroyed well over 2000 Christian worship places so far. Where lies the problem? The answer is short and simple: The Government!!! Especially this current SBY administration and its agents (armed forces). They’re weak, incompetent, thus consistently unjust in nearly all aspects of their handling the affairs or matters of public interest and importance. Unlike in other countries Christian haters can go unrestrained in Indonesia because the force that backs the Law of the Land is mournfully nonexistent.
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Panglima Buaya says:
There is some terrorist posting video under Poso title in youtube.com showed ethnic crisi between Dayaks and Madura but on the video description they make fitnah (False statement) saying the events happen in Poso where lots Christian Killing the Muslim and they mixed up said Dayaks Killing madura because they muslim, no wonder many people missunderstand and this attract the Jihads who dont know anything about thats video is a lies. you guys can see in youtube.com under Poso title.
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Mohammed Khafi said
You spoke of the day of judgement, does Hinduism not have any judgement of a persons behaviour? Isn’t Karma part of Hindu belief, isn’t it a form of judgement?
In accordance with the evolutionary undertow in Hindu belief, ‘karma’ isn’t so much a final reward or punishment for past deeds but a factor which determines the ‘degree’ of perfection in the continuous cycle of birth, death and rebirth called ‘samsara’. So the karma – good and bad – one accumulates in his lifetime determines whether in the next and subsequent lives the inner ‘self’ will come closer to perfection and after breaking the cycle through enlightenment will reach ‘moksha’/’nirwana’ or the final reintegration with the Ultimate Reality.
It is clear that, unless one is a Hindu/Buddhist, the belief in personal karma and ‘samsara’ is up to the individual. But even non-Hindu and non-Buddhist people will have to admit that something like collective karma exists. If e.g. many members of certain societies don’t care about or even indulge in corrupt practices, this society will certainly undergo a backlash in its future development. We don’t have to look far to see what I am talking about. In the end it all boils down to natural selection: ‘dharma’ (= that which holds things together) makes things evolve into a better state, ‘adharma’ leads to decay, misery and destruction.
However spiritual matters are intended to apply to all peoples, and it would seem natural to me that they should be understandable by people of all levels of intelligence?
This is why in Hinduism there are 4 ways to reach enlightenment – the ‘Catur Marga Yoga’ each adapted to personal preferences or personality characteristics:
1. Bhakti Yoga or the way of devotion to Brahman (difficult because beyond the power of imagination) or a particular manifestation (deity) thereof.
2. Karma Yoga or the way of action in the world by doing good deeds.
3. Jnana Yoga or the way of intellectual knowledge by studying and researching the true meaning of reality.
4. Raja Yoga or the most direct way to come into contact with the Ultimate Reality by deep meditation. A component hereof is the so-called Hatha Yoga, a series of bodily postures and exercises that promote health and composure.Of course none of these yogas exclude one another.
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Dewaratugedeanom,
I would disagree that Bhakti Yoga is the most difficult, and instead contend that Jnana Yoga is.
It is indeed Jnana Yoga which requires the most imagination and deep thinking, because one has to constantly tell themselves that everything they experience is Maya and that they are truly the Atma & one with the ultimate reality etc.. while in Bhakti Yoga there are various images, personalities, and stories to use as devotional aides. In Jnana Yoga one is truly on their own, and this requires much more steadfastness and mental effort than devotion. What do you think?
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Moh Khafi, I do believe there is a karmic system, I don’t believe we know exactly how it works though. it is not like judgement, as Dewaratugedeanom mentioned above. I feel it is more like the law of action and reaction in physics… it is not about a single entity (God) judging people and punishing or rewarding them accordingly. If the case was so simple then you could feasibly say that hitler was helping dole karma out to the Jews, therefore, if that was their karma, he did nothing wrong… he was simply an agent of the law of karma…. to me it is more like evolution…. a lot of grey area in the judgement game, which is why I find it hard to believe in a ‘merciful God’ and an ‘Eternal Hell’.
About my name, it is short for Janmaree. But in India I was called Janmasurya by the family that adopted me, it means ‘As brilliant as the birth of the sun.’ Janma means birth in sanskrit.
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Peter
I would disagree that Bhakti Yoga is the most difficult, and instead contend that Jnana Yoga is.
What I meant was Bhakti for brahman itself, because it is nirguna, without characteristics. There is a verse in the Bhagavadgita which alludes to this – unfortunately I don’t have it here with me – and the reason why Krishna makes an appeal to worship a personal god (the Lord Iswara or Krishna himself) as his manifestation with human characteristics.
Generally Raja Yoga is considered the most difficult but also the highest form of Yoga, requiring body and soul in total dedication. Hence the name Raja (king). For me Jnana yoga is like learning a new language or a new trade e.g. learning to interpret roentgen-pictures: seemingly impossible for a layman but clear and self-evident once you’ve got the ‘knack’ of it. For me personally Bhakti Yoga would be the most difficult, me not having a very devotional or submissive personality.@M. Khafi, Peter, Lairedion, Janma
Thanks for the appreciation. My own beliefs ranging from agnostic to syncretistic, I’m not proselytising or into dakwah. I just wanted to ring a different bell.
As for me, ‘Enlightenment’ still can wait. 😉
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joO says:
For all you guys, i just want to say this.
Whatever we believed, whatever our faith is, who are we to to judge others?Oh well, we are not perfect, even if we’re so wise, or got lots of knowledge, do lots of researchs, or even if we think ourself already lived holy/righteous.
How can we be so sure about the truth if we’re just an imperfect human with so “little” knowledge and such limited comprehension about this world and the GOD created it?I never really studied/researched about religions and its history all around the world, therefore I dare not to say much. But just like M. Khafi above said about the corruption of religions, I also see that sometimes people are “playing around” with religion, altering it and modifying it in such a way for their (or their organization)’s own benefit from time to time.
Therefore I dare to say that some “truth” today could be a product of those people who’s speaking in the name of their religion.
Just like some people said, not all you hear and all you see is for real..!
I’m not pointing/accusing anyone or any religion in this matter, for it may happened to all kind of religions. But what I want to say here is that these kind of things (the altering/twisting of a religion) happened, so that some things/facts in a religion could be false.Well, as for my own believe, I feel not like discussing it here now for it will make up for another debate… hehee… 😉
But basically it’s just, love your GOD with all your heart and your life. And love OTHERS like you did unto yourself. Even if they did bad things to you. Hey, we’re all ever made mistakes anyway.
So, just DON’T JUDGE others…
Make love, not war..
heheee… oh yeah, what a nice discussion, let’s continue it.. ^^~with love,
joO -
Sulist says:
The candidates of heaven residents show your good manner, give good examples to others peacefully.
Comment on “Persecuted Church”.
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Om swatyastu.
I will catch on later with the discussion about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism…
Kinda busy here in Bali at the moment: Galungan, the most important hari raya in the Balinese pawukon-calender.
Om santi, santi, santi om.