Indonesian Women
Oct 3rd, 2007, in News, by PatungLaws that discriminate against women.
The recent 39th meeting of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) in New York recommended Indonesia revoke all laws that are viewed as biased against women, said the Minister for Women’s Empowerment, Meutia Hatta, on 26th September.
Although Indonesia ratified the Convention 23 years ago Meutia says:
There are currently 29 laws which are gender-biased and we have suggested the relevant ministries amend them. I have heard that they are still evaluating them.
She cited the 1974 marriage law, which contains articles that permit men to commit polygamy, but not women, in the case of a wife’s infertility or inability to perform her “wifely duties”, and which also allows girls of 16 and 17 to marry, even though in other statutes such girls are considered still to be children.
Meutia said the Women’s Empowerment ministry had asked the Religious Affairs ministry to review any discriminative laws within its authority but had not yet received a response.
Meutia Farida Hatta.
She went on to say that at the meeting in New York concerns were also raised about the effect of the regional autonomy policy which had created discriminative regulations against women, such as the 2005 by-law in Tangerang, Banten, which stipulates that any woman seen alone in public after 19.00 could be considered a prostitute and arrested, as well as the various regional laws, such as this one in Malang, requiring women to obtain permission from their husbands to work at night.
Meuthia said the meeting also criticized the Indonesian government for its failure to fully integrate CEDAW convention compliance into Indonesian laws. The minister said this was because the details of the CEDAW convention were not yet known by government bodies.
CEDAW also asked the government to issue a firm policy against female circumcision.
Indonesia had not received an all negative report card however:
They noted some improvements like the issuance of the 1999 Law on Human Rights, the amendment to the 1945 Constitution, the 2004 Law on the Elimination of Domestic Violence, the 2006 Law on Witness’s and Victim’s Protection and the 2007 Law on Human Trafficking.
176 Comments on “Indonesian Women”
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Pakmantri says:
Hey, Dewanto talk to us when you’ve grown up and stopped sniffing glues and takes your medicines regularly …………. for now your thought does not count.
Bye bye now and thanks for playing. 😀
** I see another long essay coming! lol rotl.
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iamisaid says:
What’s up Doc?
Hahahaha
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Cukurungan says:
Why do you bother of My Allah give permission to moslems to commit polygamy? Why do you insult our Phrophet and our Religion according to this polygamy issue? Do you have an evidence that polygamy ruin and jeopardy a community? Show us! Prove it!
They do not bother with our polygamy practice but They are jealous with our privilege and our status (The muslim men is the best and the most powerful human on earth, therefore GOD allow us to have wife more than one) and they hate to death because they can not prove that polygamy ruin our community however in other hand here good news from a Country in which just send one of their Good Citizen to Jail because committed polygamy.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Half of all young Americans will get a sexually
transmitted disease by the age of 25, perhaps because they are ignorant
about protection or embarrassed to ask for it, according to several reports
issued on Tuesday.“One aspect of the “human tragedy” relates to U. S. epidemic in venereal disease. Every day 2,000 teenagers are infected with a venereal disease. The basic problem is one of readily available, honest information.
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Zaq says:
To Muslim men.
Please don’t use the teaching of Mohammed to legalized your hidden agenda, effing more women. The teaching is intended to target the bad behavior of the Quraisy. We are now much more better than them. Please follow Mohammed’s monogamy with Siti Khodijah, or follow his way in doing poligamy by choosing old widow whose husband were passed away in the way of Islam. That is the right thing in poligamy, to help the helpless old ugly woman who don’t have someone to rely on, who can’t support herself. Moslem support this kind of polygamy. But marry 18 old virgin? Think again my brother, are you following Mohammed or just manipulate his teaching for your own sexual desire. What a shame, and great sins!
Cukurungan,
you are being “takabur”. Allah create all human the same, we, the westerner, everybody. Where is the humbleness Mohammed has teach you?Yes, poligamy ruin our community. It hurt us, women. It makes us feel as being a property, it degrade us, we don’t have anything left to believe, that our men are there for us, that they are taking care of our heart. It hurt for God sake. I don’t believe that this is Mohammed intention in his teaching. Shame on you who manipulate it for your o wn desire.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Janma said
aduh ade wanto”¦.. why bring your broken bottle to a gun fight?
whoops.Probably sok aksi to impress the females. I think he’s cute. A teenager on steroids.
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Ihaknt says:
on steroids? I think he’s on something else…some drugs that he cooks in his kitchen or backyard. Hehehe, impress the females? Are you impressed? He’s got a stalker quality.
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Zaq Says: +3
November 14th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
To Muslim men.Please don’t use the teaching of Mohammed to legalized your hidden agenda, effing more women. The teaching is intended to target the bad behavior of the Quraisy. We are now much more better than them. Please follow Mohammed’s monogamy with Siti Khodijah, or follow his way in doing poligamy by choosing old widow whose husband were passed away in the way of Islam. That is the right thing in poligamy, to help the helpless old ugly woman who don’t have someone to rely on, who can’t support herself. Moslem support this kind of polygamy. But marry 18 old virgin? Think again my brother, are you following Mohammed or just manipulate his teaching for your own sexual desire. What a shame, and great sins!
Cukurungan,
you are being “takabur”. Allah create all human the same, we, the westerner, everybody. Where is the humbleness Mohammed has teach you?Yes, poligamy ruin our community. It hurt us, women. It makes us feel as being a property, it degrade us, we don’t have anything left to believe, that our men are there for us, that they are taking care of our heart. It hurt for God sake. I don’t believe that this is Mohammed intention in his teaching. Shame on you who manipulate it for your o wn desire.
Do not response check first who She is? Here we go she made other post :
1. Zaq Says: +0
November 15th, 2007 at 2:46 am
Is there any bule guy out there who need a friend like me? I am Javanese woman, 38, married, a bit lonely (will explain you why after we are friend). Need a close friend to talk via email or chatting, and sometimes meeting if possible, even not too often (once a month?).Hu ha ha ha apa kata dunia “Ganjen Lhu”
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Janma says:
Do not response check first who She is? Here we go she made other post :
And your point is?
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Janma,
I really want to know his point either. Hey but nevermind, we knew how he see women and we knew we never will be able to change his narrow point of view, which looks superior but it is in fact expressed his inferiority.
However, who the hell care of his thought anyway?
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Zaq said
Please follow Mohammed’s monogamy with Siti Khodijah, or follow his way in doing poligamy by choosing old widow whose husband were passed away in the way of Islam. That is the right thing in poligamy, to help the helpless old ugly woman who don’t have someone to rely on, who can’t support herself. Moslem support this kind of polygamy. But marry 18 old virgin? Think again my brother, are you following Mohammed or just manipulate his teaching for your own sexual desire. What a shame, and great sins!
Sorry if I hurt your feelings but your view on Mohammed might be a bit too rosy. What about Ayesha, Mohammed’s child wife”¦? And Zaynab, Mohammed’s own daughter-in-law”¦? Were they also helpless old ugly women?
Qur’an 33:51 “You may put off whom you please, and you may take to you whomever you desire. You may defer any of them you please, and you may have whomever you desire; there is no blame on you if you invite one who you had set aside. It is no sin. They should all be pleased with whatever you give them. Allah knows what is in your heart.”
When will Muslims finally start reading the complete Qur’an and Hadith, and not only the softcore versions edited by their kiai and ustadz?
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Tuan says:
Sorry if I hurt your feelings but your view on Mohammed might be a bit too rosy. What about Ayesha, Mohammed’s child wife”¦? And Zaynab, Mohammed’s own daughter-in-law”¦? Were they also helpless old ugly women?
Zaynab (RA) was not Muhammad SAW’s daughter in law since Ziad was not his biological son. And most of Muhammad’s marriages were done for political reasons.
Qur’an 33:51 “You may put off whom you please, and you may take to you whomever you desire. You may defer any of them you please, and you may have whomever you desire; there is no blame on you if you invite one who you had set aside. It is no sin. They should all be pleased with whatever you give them. Allah knows what is in your heart.”
When will Muslims finally start reading the complete Qur’an and Hadith, and not only the softcore versions edited by their kiai and ustadz?
So what was the point of mentioning that verse?
~Tuan Indonesian American Muslim
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Dewaratugedeanom,
first of all, I am not Mohammad follower. However, I respect him very much as a leader. Not much leaders from the past have so much influence like him. He must be a very charismatic, smart, wise and powerful person.
We both know that during his era, marry many women is just as normal as now westerner having sex without marriage. It was also very normal during Mohammad era, little girl by the age of 9 is ready for marriage, as normal as nowadays, girls in western countries having their first sex in her 13th.
We also both know that Mohammad was not a pedophilia. Marrying Aisha when she was still 9, was definitely not because of sexual reasons. The reason would be clear and understandable if you know who was Aisha father. He is Abu Bakar, the most loyal follower and closest friend of Mohammad. Marrying Aisha making Abu Bakar the father in law of the prophet, which is a honor the prophet gave to his most confidant and respectful friend.
It was true that Zainab is a young woman. It was probably to her Mohammad was attracted sexually. But then why bother? He need one sexy woman in between his old wives and child wife. Hey, give him a break will ya?
Attacking Muhammad is not the point in understand Islam. The religion now is in the same situation with Christian during Machiavelli era, when his figure of his writing, Cesare Borgia, is the lovechild of the Pope. Islam is in its declining era, the follower become more and more fanatics, there are planned efforts to bring the practice of the religion into the setback. One day the era will end, and Islam will be left by its follower, just like Christian nowadays, as one call this century as The Death of Christianity.
Islam will come to its turn one day.
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Stefan says:
@Abu Sulaiman: Your long statement is full of common Islamic stereotypes on Western societies, gender stereotypes and wrong facts.
The western European model is derived from the Greco Roman society. When a Roman man married a women she was considered his property.
No, it’s derived from the Jewish society maybe under some Graeco-Roman influence. But Christian traditions are significantly different from Jewish and Greaco-Roman traditions. Arranged marriage was common until 18th century.
A man is not legally responsible for the women he sleeps with whether she be a prostitute or his girlfriend. He is not responsible for her maintenance, shelter, education, or the rearing of her children.
In modern Western societeies husmand and wife are responsible for eachother equally. Oc course it depends on income but if the woman has a higher income than her husband she is also more responsible. If a child is born from an act of adultery the man is responsible for the child and must pay for his/her food, education and shelter.
Furthermore several studies have been made on the psychological damages that girls as young as six suffer from as a result of the bombardment of unrealistic images of dangerously thin and scantily clad women on television and commercials.
It’s a problem of a free market, not a problem of religion. The best solution would be to introduce restrictions on advertising.
Women are duped into removing more and more of their clothing and exposing their bodies as a marketing tool to sell everything, from alcohol, to homes.
This is a common gender stereotype that women are weak and can easily be duped. In the late 19th and early 20th century a bathing culture developed in Western countries. At the beginning, women had to wear jibab style wide clothing while bathing in public areas while men could already wear clothing like modern swim pants. Wo,en found it difficult to bathe in these clothing. In 1907 ustralien swimmer Anette Kellerman visited the US and performed in glass tanks wearinmg something similar to a modern sports swimsuit. There was a public outcry because of this but mostly by men, much less by women. The women themselves lobbied for more liberalisation of clothing rules because they just felt more comfortable. Women often feel more comfortable if they can wear tight clothing during their daily routine.
Misguided women western democracies are also are tricked into surrendering their virginity to strange men who do not have any intention on providing the care and responsibility that only can be legally enforced by the state through the institution of marriage.
Just another repeat of the same gender stereotypes.
Cheating
Another ginder stereotype. You assume that only men cheat and married women never cheat. Modern genetics make it possible to determine reliably whether the husband is the biological father of a child or not. recent studies have revealed that up to 30% of children in Western families are the result of adultery committed by the wife.
This article and many other studies have indicated that while polgyous marriages are outlawed in the US sexual polygyny is not only permitted but it is widely practiced. In a recent article that was republished in Playboy magazine a poll indicated that -75% of men and 65% of women admit to having sex with people they work with.
Cheating spouse statistics confirm that 50 and 70 percent of married men (between 38 and 53 million men) have cheated or will cheat on their wives.So why are you keeping silence about the number of married women who cheat their spouses. And if Playboy is the root of all evil, why do you consider it as a reliable source?
Islam does not outlaw sex but it outlaws sex outside of marriage. Similarly Islam does not outlaw polygyny but it outlaws polygyny outside of marriage as well. If Islam were the law of the land in America then those 38 million sexually polygynous men would be faced with serious decision. These 38 million sexually polygynous men would be given two options. Either they honor the relationship with their wife and cut off all sexual relationships with their sexual partners. Or they make a marriage commitment to their other partner legitimatzing the relationship and making them legally responsible for providing them with the exact same benefits that they have provided to their other wife.
Well, the vast majority of these 38 million men wouldn’t fulfill the requirement to provide enough funds to support a second or third wife and their children. So under Islamic law they can’t commit polygyny legally.
When you consider gender population world wide in the majority of nations in the world women out number men. This is due to several reasons such as the fact that women have higher life expectancy and wars tend to decimate male populations, and men are more likely to die in violent crimes.
Well, for any 100 newborn gils there are 105 boys. So boys outnumber girls and older women outnumber older men. There must be one age in the middle where the numbers are equal. In ancient societies it was the age around 20 but in these societies life was much more riskier for men. More then in modern societies got killed because of hunting accidents, warfare, crime or deseases. In modern civilisations the age when women begin to outnumber men is around 40. So you want to legalize polygyny for men under the condition that they marry women over 40 and polyandry for young women?
And indonesia is a special case? So can anyone tell me how many Indonesians got killd in war after independence? And compared with the number of Indonesians who got killed by the 2004 tsunami? Do you know that more Indonesian women got killed by the tsunsmi than men? Well, the reason is that more Indonesian men than women are able to swim. Wo why is it more likely that an Indonesian man can swim?
Is it traditional fimaly life? (While boys are playing at the beach with other boys and gor swim instructions from older boys the girls stay at home helping their mothers doing the household duties and receive instructions how to cook, sew and clean)
Is it jibab dress code?
In Germany after World War II the male population was almost decimated. In order to address this tragedy the German government voted to legalize polygyny. German lawmakers and even consulted with the scholars of Al Ahzar university for advice on implementation.
This is an urban legend. As a German I can tell you there has never been such a bill. All bills which have ever been introduced to the parliament since the constitutional convention in 1948 are still avilable and reseachable of the website of the German parliament. Get a German translator and try to find the bill on http://www.bundestag.de
This idea was rejected by the church. As a result German women were pushed into prostitution in such large numbers that the German government decided to legalized prostitution.
Another wrong statement. In fact there was a lot of prostitution right after the end of WWII. The reason was, Germany was totally destroyed, no work available and almost all men either dead or POW. But at this time there was no German government. Germany was governed by the aliied occupants. The allied leaders weren’t interested in legalizing prostitution because the clients of the prostitutes were alliied soldiers.
Until 2001 prostitution in Germany had a semi legal status. I’m not sure when this semi legal status was introduced. There were several reasons to introduced this status. Under this status prostitution was not punishable under penal law when the prostitute was registered at the health office but there was no protection for her or her client under civil law, so contracts couldn’t be enforced through a lawsuit. At the health office a frequent health check is required to avoid the spread of sexually transmitted diseases such as Hepatitis B, Gonorrhea or Syphilis. The other reason was to fight organized crime, such as trafficking of women, pimp business or enforcing protection money. The ones who profit mostly from banning prostitution are organized criminal gangs.
Well, in Western countries many men like the idea of the classic family where the man works and the woman stays at home doing the household but only a few women like the idea. Why this? Well, the men don’t want to do any family duties. They work and on the weekends they want to meet other men at the soccer stadium. Because of this attitude women think that men are unreliable and lazy and they don’t want to be dependent of a lazy and unreliable man. So they want to work themselves to be independent in case of separation. Dower is not a solution of this problem. Dower may help the women to survive a few month after divorce but what happens when the dower is completely spent? And if the woman herfelf asks for divorce she may lose the dower under Islamic law.
And finally you can’t ignore another fact of real life. The most married coubles depend on two incomes if they want to bring up children. One income is not enough. If you want the classic family then solve this problem at first.
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Zaq, whatever the reason was, marrying a child is wrong. He shouldve known better being a prophet whose one of his intentions was to set example for his followers. This clearly shows that although he was a prophet in many ways he was a human, who made judgment error. And no, it’s not understandable for Abu Bakar to think that his pride was worth more than his daughter. No wonder women dont get the respect we deserve if the man we so looked up to did that kind of example. You dont have to go as far as that magnitude to see what happens if the leader doesnt set a good example. Have a look at work, if the boss doesnt set the example he should, almost naturally the people under him will follow, because they have a reason “well, the boss does it, so it must be okay”.
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Zaq, whatever the reason was, marrying a child is wrong. He shouldve known better being a prophet whose one of his intentions was to set example for his followers. This clearly shows that although he was a prophet in many ways he was a human, who made judgment error. And no, it’s not understandable for Abu Bakar to think that his pride was worth more than his daughter. No wonder women dont get the respect we deserve if the man we so looked up to did that kind of example. You dont have to go as far as that magnitude to see what happens if the leader doesnt set a good example. Have a look at work, if the boss doesnt set the example he should, almost naturally the people under him will follow, because they have a reason “well, the boss does it, so it must be okay”.
Definition of what is a child or age of consent varies across time and civilization. A century or two ago, the age of consent/adulthood was 10-13 years old across the globe. I am sure at one point in Indonesia, the age of consent/adulthoold was just as low. I am also sure a lot of Indonesians, including yourself, are a product of ancestors who married very young.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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You are correct that the age of consent varies across time and civilization. But one thing that doesn’t change is that a 9 year old girl/child (then and now) cant think for themselves let alone decide to marry. Hence I doubt that the marriage was consented from both parties. In this kind of case (then and now) it’s the parents who gave the consent. Who knows how Aisha felt at that time, but I am sure she was petrified and scared. Regardless that it was the prophet, to her it was just a man that her father had picked for her. Would you marry off your 9 year old girl to someone who is several decades older than her or older than you?
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Definition of what is a child or age of consent varies across time and civilization. A century or two ago, the age of consent/adulthood was 10-13 years old across the globe.
A Small Sound of the Trumpet, Women in Medieval Life
I will first begin with the most desired position in Medieval Time.
The lady of Upper Class
The women of the Upper Class consisted of the following:Nobility:
“¢ Queens – were the most noticeable and most respected, they dealt in Politics and affairs of the
state. Their descendants are follows:
“¢ Example of power: In the Wife of Baths tale, the queen begged the king to have say over what
happened to the Knight when he raped the young maiden. She determined what he had to find
out in order to save his life. He came back with finding out that all women want sovereignty over
their husbands
“¢ Royal Princesses
“¢ Duchesses
“¢ Countesses
“¢ Baronesses and many ladies of noble birth.Lady Aristocrats:
“¢ Rich city heiresses
These were women who were wives or daughters who gained their status through advantageous
marriage or a succession of marriages.
Wife of Bath’s Tale, she had 5 marriages
“¢ Death of the husband meant automatic freedom of luxury and the ability to keep everything
once possessed by her husband, again the woman could remarry.
The women of the upper class were normally as children arranged in marriage by their fathers
while they were still in their cradles.
A girl was held capable of consenting a marriage at the age of (7) and usually would have the
first baby by (13).
The girls father was the sole person who selected a suitable husband for his daughter.If he died before she was married or if she was too young to marry he would make sure to leave
her a suitable dowry in his will to either wed her or put her into the nunnery.The first well-born girls rule was that she married. The only alternative to marriage was the Nunnery.
Only upper class girls and women stayed in the nunneries.
Betrothals, arranged by the parents, regularly occur during infancy. Edward II’s daughter Joan is married to Prince David of Scotland in 1328 when she is seven and he is four. Princess Isabella of France marries Richard II in 1396 when she is seven, although she has the opportunity to change her mind later.
Lady Margaret Beaufort is 13 when she gives birth to the future Henry VII in 1457. But in 1414, a Welsh couple are sent to Henry V as a ‘marvel’ because they have had a baby: allegedly, she is seven and he is nine.US History
The minimum age of consent for sexual intercourse was as young as 7 years old (in Delaware) throughout most of the 19th century. Most American states during that same period made it ten years of age. While most states now have a minimum age of 16, there are still two states– Iowa and Missouri– that place the age of consent at 14. (In New Mexico, the age of consent is 17 for heterosexual sex, but 13 for homosexual sex.)²
I am also sure a lot of Indonesians, including yourself, are a product of ancestors who married very young.
Funny how you so sure that at 1400 years ago her ancestors has a marriage relationship, at that time what they did is they were just f*cking each other like a pig and now they have been trying to recall the ancient Arabic marriage tradition into today time frame in order to disgrace our beliefs…hi hi hi hi nice try.
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Cuk your chose word just shows you got class. A low one.
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Ihaknt,
as I said in my previous posting that I am not Mohammad 100% follower (I follow some of his teaching not because I have to, but because they are good as I also follow Buddha), I agree with you that he is a human being, but a little bit different to us, he got special qualities we ordinary people don’t have. Some leaders possess those qualities, but among them, considering how huge the follower are, there is no doubt, there is something really good in Mohammad personality.
As a human being, Mohammad was also influenced by values of the local culture, which include ie. having more than one wife and marrying a little girl were common. Not only Mohammad, women and girls were also influenced by this value, being a wife in between wives and getting married when they still very young were common and normal. I learned from my grandmother, that when her father (my grand grand father) came home with a new wife, my grand grand mother didn’t take it seriously. She and the other wives welcome the new wife, gossiping and giglingly told the new wife how lousy was my grand grand father.
I hope this example will makes you understand the psychology of people in the past regading marriage. Even in the same era, you can find values differences. I will give you an example. My younger sister in her teen said to me that she want to keep her virginity until she get married. When I asked why, she said that it is a shame to her friends if they know that she is doing sex before marriage. Then she went study to a western country. One day she email me saying that she was in the edge of changing value. She found out that girls in her age (18) and still virgin is a looser, a nerd, meaning no boys is interested to her. If you can understand my sister, than you will understand Aisha. Some of her cute friends were married when they were 9. She was not afraid, she was proud. It was also known that after the marriage ceremony, she went back to her house and continue playing with her friends. There were some years going when the prophet really made love to her.
If you thoroughly read Mohammad teaching, you will understand how hostile were the people in that era in treating women. Mohammed set so many rules to minimize these hostility. During that era you can just f*ck (pardon my language) virgin and left her. Mohammed set a rule that if you want to f*ck (pardon my language) a girl, you have to make a promise to God, ask permission to her father in front of 2 witnesses. The promises you have to keep are that you have to stay and fulful the girl needs, physically and psychologically.
I am sorry I have to tell you that you are no different with that Moslem fanatics. Your way in judging the situation is just like the Moslem fanatics judging the situation. Moslem fanatics forcing the values of Mohammad era into this century, while you force this century values into Mohammad era. Never see the past form the future values, and never see the future with the past value. Otherwise you will get frustrated, or turn fanatics yourself.
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Gee settle girl. You dont even know me and called me a fanatic. Well done for your judgemental nature. You’d be surprised if we ever met. I dont condone underage sex, or teenagers having sex, as it’s an act that should be done as a sacred business. But, any 9 year olds cant really think for themselves. You dont need to tell me I am forcing this era and that era. It’s my personal opinion that when the boss does something, even if it’s not right, the followers will just follow. And some people unfortunately can’t tell what’s wrong and what’s right. So I guess marrying off your 9 year old daughter for pride is similar as today’s term of gold digger, social status. I guess, our society hasnt changed that much, and it’s a quiet sad world we live in.
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Inhaknt,
I know you’re not. It was intended to upset you and make you think. We have the same value, and we both hate the way people swallow teaching without even think about it. Sad, it is. It is just that you are too frustrated, you blame the leader. It’s not his fault. I was born Moslem, and was taught the religion. But God give me brain to think, which one is still fit, which one is expired.
Fanatics Moslem have to learn, that forcing all of the teaching is like dinosaur try to live in this era, you will extinct. Believe me. I have a Catholic friend who explain me how the religion now is more adaptive to this era, but it is too late. To much pain already during the forcing of Christian values in the Dark Age, not much people is interested. I have no doubt Islam will go the same way in the future if you Moslem keep forcing the whole values.
However, I know no one will listen to me and lets see that the Death of Islam will come.
PS:
Ihakant, I love surprises. Email me at ytresert@gmail.com
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Zaq Said: ÂÂ
I have no doubt Islam will go the same way in the future if you Moslem keep forcing the whole values.
However, I know no one will listen to me and lets see that the Death of Islam will come.Cukurungan :
1400 years a go our prophet said :
“Sesungguhnya Islam pertama kali muncul dalam keadaaan asing
dan nanti akan kembali asing sebagaimana semula.
Maka berbahagialah orang-orang yang asing (alghuroba’).”
(hadits shahih riwayat Muslim) -
Zaq
Thanks for your poised and realistic reply.
Of course I’m aware that in Muhammad’s days matrimonial mores were not what we expect them to be now. However what’s irritating and bothering is the ease and self evidence by which Muslims transplant these circumstances to the present to condone these practices as if they were a godgiven right for all times.You also said
Attacking Muhammad is not the point in understand Islam.
Here I have to disagree, considering you said
However, I respect him very much as a leader. Not much leaders from the past have so much influence like him. He must be a very charismatic, smart, wise and powerful person.
Leaders embody and are the face of their respective ideologies. If one rejects or contests an ideology like e.g. Nazism or communism then one will do so by exposing their inventors or protagonists, in this case Adolf Hitler or Stalin. Nobody will deny that both of them were also charismatic, smart and powerful leaders, who realized positive things for their respective countries. But at what cost? Absolutism, mass control, submission and lots of atrocities and bloodshed.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Hi Cuk, I didn’t know Prophet Mo pbuh spoke Bahasa Melayu.
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dewaratugedeanom:
Leaders embody and are the face of their respective ideologies. If one rejects or contests an ideology like e.g. Nazism or communism then one will do so by exposing their inventors or protagonists, in this case Adolf Hitler or Stalin. Nobody will deny that both of them were also charismatic, smart and powerful leaders, who realized positive things for their respective countries. But at what cost? Absolutism, mass control, submission and lots of atrocities and bloodshed.
Me:
Yes, they were charismatic, smart and powerful, but not wise. These examples you gave, eg. Hitler and Stalin, people immediately, less then few years, realised that they were wrong. Immortal leaders, leaders who still have follower after they died, brought truth in their teaching. Some truths were questioned and challenged during years, like Karl Marx, some stay for centuries, like Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, Kong Hu Chu. I believe that teaching which brought truths will stay. It will someday being questioned and challenged, depend on how truly is the truths the teaching bring.
I always think positive to those immortal leaders. I learn their teaching. I take the good ones since they are helping me to be a better person. I left the incompatible ones. And I am not forcing what I believe to anyone.
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Janma, ini orang kenapa yah? Gak nyambung gitu lho! Maybe he tried to blow himself up but failed then just got brain damaged…mmm.