Batak Church Attack
Sep 8th, 2007, in News, by PatungA Batak church in Tangerang, West Java is attacked.
On 2nd September a house used as a church in the Pondok Sukatani Permai housing estate, Sukatani, Tangerang (map), western Java was damaged in an attack by about 300 Muslims.
One report says about 200 people were in the house attending a regular Sunday service when a crowd of 300 surrounded the church and demanded that the service stop. Parishioners refused and thereafter the mob threw rocks and pieces of wood at the house, slightly injuring the pastor Jao Lolok Pasaribu, 50, and a churchgoer, P. Panjaitan, 36, both in the head. Police soon arrived. jawapos
Another report says about 50 people were in the house attending a regular Sunday service at the Batak “Protestant Church of the Christian Synod” when more than 300 Islamic extremists attacked and “totally destroyed the community’s property”. The pastor, called Jau Dolokseribu, and six parishioners were seriously wounded. asianews
Meanwhile on 7th September a leader of the Christian Partai Damai Sejahtera (PDS), Pastor Saut Hasibuan, asked the government to take a firmer stand against church burnings and vandalising, foster inter-faith dialogue, and revise the houses of worship law of 2006. detik
56 Comments on “Batak Church Attack”
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Odinius says:
Julita: I think, in most civil wars, you end up at this conclusion: “every side did horrible things, but one did more horrible things than the others.” So there are two things to take away from this: a) civil wars make everyone act badly and b) you can still identify one side that is the primary aggressor.
And that gets to what I’m getting at here. In Yugoslavia, during WW2, the Serbs had it the worst. But other people had it bad too. Just not asbad. In the 1990s wars, Bosnian Muslims had it the worst. Other people had it bad too, just not as bad. Yet when you talk to anyone there, doesn’t matter who, the story they tell you is that they were the only ones who were victims and of course never did anything bad to anyone.
To get a better idea of what happened in Bosnia, please read this book. It’s by an American journalist who risked his life to discover what happened in Srebrenica, something now confirmed by days of court testimony and DNA evidence
Or peruse the UN Criminal Tribunal Case Dossier
The city I lived in Croatia, Dubrovnik, was attacked by Serbs in 1991 and 70% damaged, but thankfully never taken. But all the houses and hotels outside were destroyed and looted. And that was getting off lucky. Many people in Dubrovnik (who are almost all Catholics, for the record) take this as a reason to hate the Serbs. I don’t, because I was not born there and can see more clearly that it was a bad time and a bad act, but that Serbs are no worse people than anyone else.
Everyone has the capacity for good and evil.
A Christian friend from Ambon told me when the war was going on there in 2000, he felt literally crazed from it. Now he has re-establihsed relationships with his old Muslim friends, and says he regrets the fighting there very much, as do they.
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Andrew says:
Julita, what kind of reference do you expect me to give you? Official reference, is available everywhere, just google it. Unofficial reference, exists in my head from numerous conversations with a lot of Catholics. Aren’t you denying it as well?
Oh, to be fair, there’s actually one priest at my wife’s (yes, Catholic) church who’s brave enough to admit that, and yes, in a mass. The guy deserve a respect.
Ever heard of Catholic priests attacking Protestantism? I have, many times in masses, and in private conversation. Just an example: a priest said this to me, out of the blue: “Protestantism is a poor religion, they don’t even recognize Mary.” That was 15 years ago, it still rings inside my head now as it was the minute I heard it. He should try saying that to me NOW.
I’m sure there’s nothing wrong with Catholicism itself, but SOME people who grow inside it feel they are invincible and superior to other forms of Christianity. Coincidence? I don’t think so. It must have something to do with it’s past.
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Julita says:
Hi, Andrew, I think we had that conversation already, you stranded in the Catholic church and I went to the Protestant church as a child and later to accompany my relatives. To me the Catholic church is good that is why I choose it, for you the Protestant is good you choose, so? Let the priest and minister say what they want, what important is your own heart, God knows.
I don’t deny anything about Croatia and I don’t have time to browse so either you come with anything you want to discuss or just forget it. Why should I deny the truth Andrew? Is it the church are we talking about or some member of the church? It is a big different!Odinius: The city I lived in Croatia, Dubrovnik, was attacked by Serbs in 1991 and 70% damaged, but thankfully never taken. But all the houses and hotels outside were destroyed and looted.
Jlts: By the way were the Serbs not bombarded? The above is nothing, compared to what the Serbs had to go through, did click on the photos? Why were they so angry? Who started the game, in what way? To me one word, inhumane. About Croatian participating let Andrew come up first.
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Julita said:
By the way were the Serbs not bombarded? The above is nothing, compared to what the Serbs had to go through, did click on the photos? Why were they so angry? Who started the game, in what way? To me one word, inhumane. About Croatian participating let Andrew come up first.
No. No Croats bombed anything in Serbia in 1991. The war had already started in Plitvice and Vukovar, but Dubrovnik is on the complete opposite side of Croatia. It was not near any of the places where the war was being fought and no one was even close to starting it. It has nothing of military value. But it was attacked. Why did the JNA come in with artillery, tanks and fighter jets against a bunch of poorly armed people? Because it had riches to loot. So much was taken you could get a VCR in the markets of Podgorica for $1, a TV for $5. And Europe’s most beautiful city was in flames. Thank god the UN came to the city’s rescue.
And please, please explain to me how that is a justified response to something that happened 45 years earlier, when those 45 years were spent living together in one country in peace? And i’m not even talking about the massacres the Serbs committed in Vukovar, Bijeljina, Zepa, Srebrenica, Sarajevo, Bosanski Samac, Lika, Kordun, Karlovac, Plitvice, Knin, etc. etc. etc.
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No, not the Croats, they complained about the West. Up to now the West are there, I hope Moslems see that too, and be grateful as you do.
Odinius, tremendous hate especially when it is nurtured for generations do not go away. There is so much hate in this world and it goes on. I think as much as we want to study why things happen, it adds to my general knowledge. We should promote peace, love instead pointing our fingers to anybody. That is me. -
Dragonwall says:
From Indonesian matters to croats, serbs, yugoslav, etc etc.
So what’s the bottom line. Does the Indonesian constitution legalize such atrocities against the Christians throughout Indonesia?. These are the works that were politically motivated and most likely provoked by clerics.
A religion won’t stone or burn but only humans do. The more churches they burn or attack it will show the world the more degrading Indonesians become. The more discrimination exists it will also show the world the more backwardness Indonesian had become.When action speaks for itself, such action will never get Indonesian a favorable position or out of their financial difficulties. Indonesian radical Islamic faction can make demand for Shara to be implemented but this is only to benefit the few by sacrificng the majority and suppressing the minority.
No one will sympathesize. Any rational human will not act to discredit another whether in race or religion.
Such act of destroying churches are acts of COWARDS. I am sure no one God will want their followers to be a COWARD.
I earnestly urge the Christians to level out and not be entrapped by such trickster who were actually provocators ready to ignite another May 13. Or perhaps another G30SPKI. There are all the similarity. Before the big one happens, they want a small camp fire turned into a towering infreno.
If one could look and read carefully in thiese blog, there were actually many many provocator at work laying the foundation for those watching this blog to be agitated.
Those who wants to paint a picture of themselves being a patriot were in fact instigators They don’t help solve problems but try to pour petrol over a small fire.
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Augusto says:
Dear Dragonwall,
The bottom line is islam itself. It is the culprit. Those pious clerics are just doing what allah and moh instruct them to do according to the quran and hadiths. Islam covers everything from politics, money, women, killing kaffirs etc. It is the way of life for the good muslims.
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Julita said:
No, not the Croats, they complained about the West. Up to now the West are there, I hope Moslems see that too, and be grateful as you do.
Odinius, tremendous hate especially when it is nurtured for generations do not go away. There is so much hate in this world and it goes on. I think as much as we want to study why things happen, it adds to my general knowledge. We should promote peace, love instead pointing our fingers to anybody. That is me.I agree with you completely on the peace and love part. But my point is that you don’t have to be from one group or another to be capable of doing horrible things to others. Everyone is capable of it: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, aetheists, animists, etc. The only point of bringing up Yugoslavia is that it’s a clear case of people who are Christians attacking people who are Muslims. In the end, it’s exactly the same as the reverse. And only when we have mutual respect, tolerance and get away from this neanderthalish idea that “we’re” great and “they’re” awful can we actually build real peace in Indonesia, in Yugoslavia, in Europe, in Asia, in the Middle East and everywhere else.
People attacking churches in Indonesia should be opposed, but not because it’s Christians being attacked or Muslims doing the attacking, but because it’s people and their places of worship being attacked for what they believe in.
Augusto said:
The bottom line is islam itself. It is the culprit. Those pious clerics are just doing what allah and moh instruct them to do according to the quran and hadiths. Islam covers everything from politics, money, women, killing kaffirs etc. It is the way of life for the good muslims.
The same things are in the Bible, e.g. in Leviticus. Daniel sanctions genocide. Does that mean the “bottom line” of modern genocide is “Christianity and Judaism themselves?” Of course not. But by your logic they are.
People need to get away from this moral certitudes and start focusing on behavior. When people attack other people, it’s wrong. Fin.
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That is why Odinius, to be fair to all, we have to consider our posting for all. Blame all or blame none of them. Spread peace that is what we should do.
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I think there’s a difference between blaming people who commit crimes and blaming peoples. Like I said, Serbs, Christians, Muslims, Indonesians, Americans, Africans, British, Germans, Arabs, Israelis, etc…bad things have been done in all their names, but none of these people are inherently bad. Or inherently good, for that matter.
But, yes, spreading peace is the answer 🙂
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“Blame all or blame none” of them, since it was one sided before. I am not talking about the international, please no mistake.
Augusto, thumbs up!
Odinius: People attacking churches in Indonesia should be opposed, but not because it’s Christians being attacked or Muslims doing the attacking, but because it’s people and their places of worship being attacked for what they believe in.
Jlta: You said it well.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Odinius said:
The point here is just to illustrate that in history people who follow Christianity have done awful things to people who follow Islam, not just the other way around.
Odinius is right. Antisocial and sadistic disorder is a psychiatric syndrome that affects certain characters of all races and religions. Islam however provides a mental frame and the pretext (jihad) that justifies their deranged attitude and actions. How else to interpret the Taliban publicly and randomly executing helpless women in a stadium in Kabul or Osama Bin Laden’s statement to an American journalist “Americans love to live, we love to die, that is the difference between us”?
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“Americans love to live, we love to die, that is the difference between us”?
It is always the other way round. If they love to die, why they are always fighting a guerilla warfares. These MF are cowards. They only pick the weaklings and cover their face. He will face the death like Saddam Hussein and his sons. A violent death with his body strewn all over and eatened up by coyotes. I don’t think dogs would like to taste his flesh because it will make those dogs an even greater sinner. whereas those animals let them fight each others.
If I remember vividly when this Been Laden character started of he contributed @ 10 million. Now for fighting the jihad until today it has been more than 10 years. Where he got the rest of the money from. Sympathesizers. How much did he get? Much much more. Don’t belief in those video tapes that the live in shack, make shift hermit’s life. They have everything the modern world can offer. That is luxury not many people can afford.
These people learn from the Israelis how they hide their weapons in the desert. The same thing that his luxury in the desert is being camouflage.
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dewaratugedeanom said:
Odinius is right. Antisocial and sadistic disorder is a psychiatric syndrome that affects certain characters of all races and religions.
I agree with you here.
Islam however provides a mental frame and the pretext (jihad) that justifies their deranged attitude and actions. How else to interpret the Taliban publicly and randomly executing helpless women in a stadium in Kabul or Osama Bin Laden’s statement to an American journalist “Americans love to live, we love to die, that is the difference between us”?
I think the radical fringe of Islam does do this, but so does the radical fringe of every other religion. See: Hindutva in India, Christian terrorists like Timothy McVeigh in the US. So, for that matter, does the radical fringe of left and right wing politics, and radical nationalism.
Radicalism is the problem.
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bin camel says:
Government is arsehole, they allow this thing happened many times.
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Odinius
I think the radical fringe of Islam does do this, but so does the radical fringe of every other religion.
I should have said ” The Qur’an and Muhammad’s biography provide a mental frame and the pretext (jihad) that justifies their deranged attitude and actions.” I don’t know whether you have read the Qur’an or not, but I strongly advise you to do so. And don’t forget to read the ahadith and the Bible too, because otherwise it’s nearly incomprehensible.
Besides Hassan gave a very interesting link to . I never visited it before but it is quite interesting, because it is mainly written by ex-muslims. -
Dewa:
Yeah I have. I don’t find it any more or less conducive to a radical or intolerant mentality than the Old Testament. It has certain passages that really bother me, and others that seem, to me enlightened. That’s why both books have been subject of discussion, argument and exegesis for millenia. They’re not easily understood; if you take them completely literally, you would contradict yourself frequently. So the obvious conclusion to me is that you can’t. This is how many churches teaches the OT, and how Sufis contemplate the Quran. Seems good to me 🙂
But most of the practices in Islam I find problematic actually come from the Sunnah rather than the Quran anyways, and there’s quite a good theological argument that the Sunnah should not be followed strictly. Sputjam follows Islam this way. More on it at http://www.submission.org
It all comes down to practice and interpretation.
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If one understand a religion or all the religion, none had taught human being to be psychotic, carry out acts of terrorism, suppressing the weak.
It is always the human themselves and those trying to be too smart that defray their teaching by misleading their desciples to think otherwise and carry out act purportedly to be the instruction of their god that they are protecting their belief.
Most of ll, those that had carried out were no more than halucinating fanatic psycho extremist venting their anger by carrying out personal vendetta. They seemed to find that carrying out and executing such an order is a great act. Worst still there are even people who felt that spreading hate is a way of serving their god.
Look at those being attacked, injured for no apparent reason. I wonder if that was the other way round, how would they feel.
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Odinius said
It all comes down to practice and interpretation.
I agree that all scriptures, also from other religions, are susceptible to various interpretations, because contrary to what muslims believe, they are man made and can’t be valuable for all places and all times. That is why syariah should never and nowhere be applied. If muslims would agree that the contents of the Qur’an should be taken allegorically and not literally a big step could be taken towards mutual understanding. Unfortunately it seems to go the other way.
But I have more difficulties with ‘role model’ Muhammad. For me Muhammad was what Muhammad did and we see the results of his sunnah everyday on TV and in newspapers. -
If you only follow the Quran, and not the Sunnah, I believe Sharia can only be interpreted as a personal code of conduct for a spiritual benefit in the afterlife.
Most of the things associated with the practice of Islam that are objectionable to people come from the Sunnah. There isn’t even a prohibition on drinking alcohol in the Quran, just a warning that god doesn’t like drunks. The idea that you can’t drink any alcohol comes from interpretations of the Sunnah. But the Sunnah isn’t Islam: it’s a collection of verses that many Muslims don’t accept because of what the Quran says about not following men, only god. Most Muslims do accept some hadiths, but no group can agree with another about which are the most and least important. What the salafis in Saudi think is important is not the same as the Sufis in Bosnia or the NU in East Java.
Again, interpretation and practice.
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Odinius said
This is how many churches teaches the OT, and how Sufis contemplate the Quran. Seems good to me
I’m glad you mention Sufism. Did you know how mainstream muslims treated Al-Hallaj, the influential Sufi mystic from Baghdad, who lived a thousand years ago? They cut of his hands and feet and hung him high because he once had jokingly said “Ana Al-Haqq” meaning “I am the truth”.
It is recorded that Al-Hallaj went singing and dancing to his execution. And he was right. The only way to treat fanatic morons is by taunting and ridicule them. -
Good for him. Notably, he’s also an example of the Islamic faith, and proof through its heterogeneity that the faith itself is not what’s wrong, but radical interpretations and abuses of it 🙂
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Max says:
By their fruits He shall judge them.
Muslims Repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord. When you persecute Christians you persecute the Christ. You live by law and you shall die by law, God’s Law. Accept Jesus as your Lord and his blood will wash away your transgressions and make you justified before God. Only then will you enter Paradise.
Islam is Cloak that Satan wears to deceive. When you follow Islam you follow Satan.
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Hotma says:
West java is f***! Batak people goes to be a a nation is better…extremist of moslem always plays with that stupid bad feeling) better batak jews, christian and the people of tapanuli become a nation!!!
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Laurence says:
I think the bataks will kick the muslim protesters asses!!
Comment on “Batak Church Attack”.
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Odinius: As the numbers I posted above should show, every nationality in Yugoslavia suffered horribly in WW2, but Serbs suffered the worst. I strongly believe this experience is what led them to be the most aggressive during the 1990s.
Jlta: That is it Odinius bull or not bull it was all sides. Why we came to this discussion, and which attract me was the term you said that “Christians have done plenty of awful things to Muslims in history too. I used to live in ex-Yugoslavia. ‘Nuff said, really.” That was why I enter into this discussion. I don’t like and don’t want to point my finger to your side(I am very cautious with this, do not want to hurt anybody, did not even write down what I read in the web with witnesses) either unless you start.
Andrew: This [persecution] is a historical fact that should be taken as is without affecting their faith in God, yet a lot of Catholics are still in complete denial.
Jlta: Andrew, you mean the Catholic church ( note though: whether it is done by a certain group of Catholic people or the Catholic church told them to do it) are still in denial? Let us go, study this part, interesting for me what are they denying. Please, give me you quotation and reference.