Sharia Application
Aug 22nd, 2007, in News, by PatungSharia can be applied without making Indonesia an Islamic state.
Fuad Amsyari of the Crescent Star Party, Partai Bulan Bintang (PBB), said in Jakarta on 21st August that the basic form of the state, Pancasila, did not need to be changed in order that sharia be applied. Instead, every law that was made could incorporate Islamic law.
It was a mistake to think that sharia application depended on an Islamic state, he said, and there was nothing in Pancasila that prevented sharia law from being applied in Indonesia. Every government policy and law could employ sharia, he said, and no discrimination against non-Muslims would occur.
There will be no discrimination because in Islam there can be no discrimination.
Another PBB leader, Sahar L. Hassan, agreed that sharia could be adopted without altering the constitution, and hoped that it could be applied at the level of the state, however, someone convicted of theft in an area for which the state was responsible would not suffer hand amputation, but in ordinary theft cases hand amputation would occur.
Meanwhile, in the interests of the further application of sharia law, the PBB is inviting clerics from throughout the country and well-known figures such as Muhammadiyah leader Din Syamsuddin, NU leader Hasyim Muzadi, Majelis Ulama Indonesia leader Ma’ruf Amin, Siddiq Amin of Persatuan Islam (Persis), and representatives of Dewan Dakwah, Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, Dewan Masjid Indonesia, Ikatan Wanita Muslimat Indonesia, and the Badan Komunikasi Pemuda Remaja Masjid Indonesia (BKPRMI), to attend a meeting in Bogor, 24-26th August.
During this meeting it is hoped that ways to apply sharia in all aspects of life can be discussed, as well as the means of bringing this about, and specific proposals that can be put to the government and parliament. republika
246 Comments on “Sharia Application”
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Pieter says:
Aluang Anak Bayang:
1. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Assalamualaikum.Dear brother Pieter,
There is no such things as Humanists and Atheists in the eyes of the true believer. You are either Muslim or non-Muslim (unbeliever who incur the wrath of Allah swt). Our creator, Allah swt had made it clear that Islam is the only religion for all mankind.
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'”Dear DoOs,
There is no extremists in Islam. It is either good or bad Muslim. Good Muslims are those who follow in the footstep of prophet Mohammad ppbuh. Bad Muslim are those swept away by the tsunamis and killed by earthqakes. Allah seeth, heareth and knoweth all things.
Salam.Assalamualaikum Aluang Anak Bayang,
I have no idea where you come from and in what world you live. I frmo my part I have worked and lived in many places and dealt with people of different faiths all my life. My self born Jewish I married a Muslim lady from Indonesia and we both live in a secular country now without any practice of religion. We do explain our son what our neighbors do on Sunday in church and what the uncle do on Jumat in masjit. Being Dutch our education at home was 100% secular within the respect of other faiths which they can practice in the privacy of their home and in their places of worship. For me anyone can do, think, say and eat what they want in full liberty. However one persons liberty stops where it disturbs the next persons liberty. For my part you do what you want, think what you want, say what you want and make cartoon of whoever you want. But please do not monopolize the religion by saying that yours is the one and only true faith. That is merely your opinion and may disagree with you. As much as I dislike the Christian preachers that claim the same as you about their faith I hate to see people indoctrinated by one side or the other.It is time to realize that your faith came imposed on birth or by voluntary conversion and that it is all a matter of conviction you may or may not have. However being a Humanist and Atheist born Jewish I am sorry that 5000 years ago the Hebrew people did not have any knowledge about copyrights and patents law as we would have sued the hell out of all the so called “true and only” religions that copied the practices of the Jewish faith that goes back more than 5000 years.
OK, brother it is Jumat and I will not spoil your prayers any longer today with my Kafir way of thinking. Aren’t we all the sons of Abraham after all? I may not be a believer but I know my history!
Chabat Shalom
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Cukurungan says:
Pieter Says:
OK, brother it is Jumat and I will not spoil your prayers any longer today with my Kafir way of thinking. Aren’t we all the sons of Abraham after all? I may not be a believer but I know my history!
Chabat ShalomCukurungan:
I tell you if Aluang do sholat Jumat today the Time would be suddenly stop for a while to honor “his deed” that he never done before.
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Tomaculum says:
“Under sharia law no mother become prostitute and no father become a drug addict because before those sinners are growing worst sharia will fix it.”
Hmm, and under sharia law it is allowed to rape and torture TKWs, isn’t it?? Ooops, isn’t it allowed to “use” the slaves??? 🙂
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Janma says:
oh my goodness! Have been away for awhile from IM…. did I miss an episode? Has Alaung always been this fanatic? Why don’t I remember him so? That’s some pretty scary stuff Alaung!!!!
cuk, please don’t pick and choose statistics…. women raping children happens, but in ratio to men raping children it’s not even close! And that has nothing to do with race, it happens every where.
If a TKW is raped by a non Muslim… lets say an Australian, you guys would waste no time piketing the Australian embassy, burning flags, putting out fatwa’s etc… but for every Arab man that rapes or kills or beats a TKW no one has a comment. No one pikets the Saudi embassy… everybody pretends it doesn’t happen. you can’t pick and choose. you can’t convince me of the rightness of your arguments with half mast, one sided, subjective statements and statistics that support only your convictions. All you convince people of is that you are blind and brainwashed and that we are right to be terrified of religious fanatacisim. Not doing a great service for your religion, neither you or Alaung….
as for that bullsh*t about the tsunami…. how do you know allah didn’t send it to punish the Muslims for being so intolerant and hateful? How do you know? Does Allah tell you his plans? Does he operate under your mindset do you think? The most merciful!?
Crap Crap Crap! -
“before those sinners are growing worst sharia will fix it”
Yeah, hang’m high and stone them to death……No mother become a prostitute, they have to “serve” their husbands home. And when the husband wants it, he takes a trip to Indonesia (or one of the western countries) and makes himself happy with the help of the prostitutes.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙁
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Dimp says:
Hi Janma,
as for that bullsh*t about the tsunami”¦. how do you know allah didn’t send it to punish the Muslims for being so intolerant and hateful? How do you know? Does Allah tell you his plans? Does he operate under your mindset do you think? The most merciful!?
Everyone know that the tsunami was caused by the Americans and the Jews.
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the balinese were so funny about the tsunami issue…. The Australian government wanted to install tsumani warning systems off kuta beach….. I think they installed them and then didn’t turn em on or the balinese didn’t maintain them, they didn’t think it would be helpful maybe? Instead they took a bunch of black animals… ducks, dogs, chickens, ducks and even a buffalo and put them in a boat and went out to sea, after the appropriate prayers had been muttered they chucked the whole lot overboard into the sea!
I was just imagining God in heaven…… being puzzled… like “Ok…. they just chucked a bunch of black animals into the sea….” what could that mean? what do they want? More black animals? More white? More money? Better crops? ” puzzle puzzle puzzle….. I’m sure He/She was entertained at the very least. -
Hi Janma,
Well some people act without logic, they were taught that way for generations and they stick by it. But as long as their actions do not create any problem for others then I don’t see any problems, however stupid I consider that actions are.
BTW, what other black things do they sent out to sea? How about the boat, was it painted black too? Talking about boat did you hear about the Indonesian Navy boat that was hit by a storm and grounded on Australian beach? I saw it on the news and was quite embarassed, the boat looks at least 100 years old. Another funny thing is those Navy seamen went offboard carrying guns, creating a bit of alarm on that coastal area. The Australian police finally confiscate the guns but then stated that there is no way that gun will fire as it’s probably 100 years old.
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I don’t know if the boat was painted black…. they would have had to sink it if it was… which would mean a few brown people would have been sacrificed along with it, which might have mucked up the symbolisim….
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Ihaknt says:
Janma, Aluang is a two-face. He’s been like this for the past few weeks. Maybe he is the same person as his friend Mr. Ono.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Re,
Everyone know that the tsunami was caused by the Americans and the Jews.
I see that Dimp is one of the more intelligent contributors here. The people of the boook like to cause mischief even when truth is presented to them. Allah swt had already made it known in the Quran itself.
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Aren’t Muslims people of the book too? Get a grip man… I’m not liking this new dynamic… not that what I like or don’t like is important, it’s just confusing me…. a joke is a joke, but in needs to be interspersed with some real intellectual content…. monty python knew how to make fun of religion…. they got laughs and made people introspective with their humor. It wasn’t just a childlike ploy to rub people up the wrong way. A little intellect please gentlemen!
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Ahh .. Ihaknt, our ‘unthinking’ ex-mbak. Your tongue is laced with poison and only Shariah can salvage your soul. May Allah swt bless you.
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Excuse me Aluang,
I don’t need feminists or religionists to tell me how to be a woman, a mother, a provider or a wife.
God gave me a brain and a heart and the sense to use it. I trust myself. You should try trusting women.
You think without religion your mother would have lost her way? Not been a good mother? A good wife? Don’t you trust the women in your life to do what is best for themselves and their loved ones? -
Augusto says:
Djoko, I hope you are still around to read this.
You said: “There’s no doubting there are sections of the Islamic community which want to see an Islamic state in Indonesia. What hasn’t been effectively shown is whether or not they constitute an imminent threat to the existence of the secular Indonesian state.”
I think when ever and where ever any community that seeks an Islamic state/sharia is an imminent threat to the existence of the secular and democratic system of Indonesia. Are you saying because it is not so imminent then we should wait a little longer until it is a little too late?
Your assessment on the survey done by LSI may be right, but I think Suharto played a big role in subduing the islamists. As I said in my last post (if you do still recall) that islamization can also be imposed by the islamist and jihadists by other means, such as: separatism, if you are aware that this method has worked in many countries in toppling their sec govt. Terrorism is also often used my the jihadist, we have experienced that here and it is effective in crippling the economy. These are a few ways for demanding the sec govt to give in to the jihadist. Well of course these wont happened over night, but if the govt and the so-called “moderate” Muslim are passive it would be too late before we realized they have taken part of the country and turn it into an Islamic state. This country is in a very fragile state, the majority are non-practicing Muslim, all the jihadists need is just a little push to make them more Islamic. We are economically and politically unstable, plus we are more anti western, this will make us left behind by other pro western countries which are mostly kaffir. This is an easy target for the islamist/jihadist they will lure the gullible into fighting the sec govt and the kaffir in return for the goodies of martyrdom.
You said; “What I’m trying to say is that the secular Indonesian state is not under threat any time soon, which it seemed it was from your original post, and I apologize if I have misread it in that case.”
Are you saying the sec govt is under threat but not at any time soon? Meanwhile we should wait? No, you did not misread it, it is just that our definition of imminent seems to be different, anyway apology accepted.
You ask: “Is it Islam itself or radical Islam we should be fearing? If its Islam itself (as written in your post there), what should we do about it (and Muslims)?
Ok Djoko this is a very tough question; do you really want to touch up on this? Let me just say little bit about Islam. All religion are a mixed-bag of good and bad, if you ask me to rate islam in terms of tolerance, I would put it at the bottom of the list. In terms of injustice and cruelty I would put it right on top of my list. Fortunately most Indonesian are non-practicing Muslim and do not read the quran or emulate mohammad, just like the Malaysian used to be. These are bad Muslims according to mohammad because they are not followint his sunna and quran, but very humane to us.
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Sputjam says:
The islamic religionist are lost.
The more intent and deeper they indulge in their religion, the further they divert from the koranic messages.
The syariah laws will bring nothing but misery, becasue it is based on laws written by men in the sunnah and hadith.
these man made laws overide what is written in the koran.
So if koran profess freedom of faith, the scholars will say that the hadith said differently and death for apostates.
So what chance have you got with all these contradictions. -
Sylvester says:
Ok Djoko this is a very tough question; do you really want to touch up on this? Let me just say little bit about Islam. All religion are a mixed-bag of good and bad, if you ask me to rate islam in terms of tolerance, I would put it at the bottom of the list. In terms of injustice and cruelty I would put it right on top of my list. Fortunately most Indonesian are non-practicing Muslim and do not read the quran or emulate mohammad, just like the Malaysian used to be. These are bad Muslims according to mohammad because they are not followint his sunna and quran, but very humane to us.
So, in conclusion islam is less humane.
It is good that Indo do not follow those camels in the desert. -
Djoko says:
Augusto:
It does seem our definition of imminent or what constitutes a threat is different. I’m not saying that we should ‘sit around and do nothing’, in fact secular groups should be trying to do everything they can to ensure they remain dominant, but I think its a bit of a stretch to hope that religious radicalism or conservatism is going to disappear from the planet ever. So in that case, and going by your definition of what constitutes a threat to a secular state (that is the mere presence of radical and conservative groups) I dare say that the secular state is never going to be secure in that case. Thus where as you take the presence of radical and conservative groups as in itself being a threat to secularism, I instead look at their strength, because I consider their actual presence as a given in any political system and in any religion.
Welcome to an open political system. As abhorrent as it sounds, if you have an open political system you’re going to have people with conservative and radical views running around. Of course if you would like to revert to the Soeharto style closed system, feel free to do so, but know that comes with its own limitations as well (you know, the 32 years of political repression Indonesia had). Thus barring a return to authoritarianism, if Indonesian secularists are serious about guarding against any perceived ‘tidal wave’ of radical Islamism, they’re just going to have to fight the good fight in the democratic system.
What I can gather from your view of Islam is that it is more evil than not, and that the only ‘humane’ Muslim is one which doesn’t practice. I’m sure we could throw examples back and forth to back up our respective views, but having known a wide range of Muslims throughout Indonesia (including those who in your words ‘read the Qur’an and follow the example of Muhammad’), I’m inclined to disagree with your view. I’ve found them to be great people all round, even the pesantren people I have met are a lot different from what I read about in the papers. But then again that’s just my experience.
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Enigmatic says:
You are a Muslim Aluang, and I respect that. Now try think yourself as a Jesus worshipping Christian and look at all those messages you posted. Now do the same as a Buddhist, an American, and a Jew. Do your messages not look ludicrous? Allah himself decreed that all are created equal, should that mean that others must die while only you can be salvaged? Go on to google and run a search on the causes of the Asian tsunami. I have done so and I can tell you that the first 100 sources have nothing about Allah doing it. If it is true, then Allah is a murderer. While I may be a humanist, I hope not. Think about it.
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Julita says:
Great that Janma, speaks up for the sake of Indonesia, Indonesian people, women and especially Moslem women.
Some postings do not make sense, contradicting one another, this is from the same person. Added again and again ‘Allah said’ (we need proof that Allah said it, to whom, where and how? This is important to the forum), a kind of ultimatum, and, as if, hiding behind Allah’s name and don’t anybody criticize ‘the writer’ to me it is more using Allah’s name in vain.
I expect this forum to be more intelligent and not shuffling web site to others without having a proper discussion what is in it (so that readers will learn something). We can look it up ourselves and shuffle the contradictory, so it becomes a shuffling of website. That is not wise.
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To all involving Jew in your comments;
I happen to be a JEW and could you guys keep us out of your stories. We have nothing to do with it; Judaism is not even a recognized religion in Indonesia!
By the way I am happily married with an Indonesian Muslim and we enjoy our Humanistic & Atheistic approach of life in our secular place of residence. When I see the family of my wife that is mostly Muslim with some converts to Roman Catholic Church and to the Protestant Church I wonder why the entire RI could not continue to function in that kind of harmony.
This forum should have no point in a rational world or with people believing in the freedom or cult and worship. Or for that matter for those who choose not to worship like us but to respect those that do.
Pieter.
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Pieter,
wow, you’re a Jew and married with a Muslima? And you tell us this here?
Wait for the reactions! From stoning till bombing you may read in the next time.
Love? Tolerance? Respect (each other)?
Many Indonesian haven’t even hear about that?Brothers: in da peace, in da love (freely adapted from A. Sudarsono)
A proud and happy Ex-Indonesian -
Tomaculum,
Not only that I am a Jew, I am Dutch as well…., you know our great colonial past in Indonesia etc.
On top of that I see myself as a free thinking Humanist & Atheist not practicing any religion. I lived many in Indonesia for my job representing an Israeli company. Our products were very well appreciated and looked for even if some Arab countries could offer the same items. Most of our (Indonesian Muslim) customesr preferred the Israeli products.
I also lived for 10 years in Israel and took my wife there via Jordan on some kind of a Holy tour. The funny thing is that we went on a Friday to Al-Aqsa and when the prayers started the asked me to leave as I was not Muslim. Fair enough I said but my wife wanted to stay since it was allowed for Muslims to pray. However the Arabs at Al-Aqsa and the Arab quarters of Jerusalem told her that she was not a real Muslim in their opinion. Also one Indonesian (Muslim) engineer we sent to Israel was refused praying in Al-Aqsa as they did not believe he was a true Muslim. He had to prove he could pray preior to enter the compound on a Friday.Talk about tolerance coming from the “Brothers” in the Middle East!
Cheers,
PieterPS, I look forward to the comment. I still would like to know what I have to do with the Tsunami.
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Pieter,
it is irrelevant if you have something to do with the tsunami or not. Per definitionem you have to be fault for something, so why not for the tsunami. It sounds so mighty, isn’t it. 🙂 (And if you are employed by MOSSAD, then is everything clear.Look at the Indonesian Chinese or the rest of the western world, they are to be blame for the poverty in Indonesia and for the economical problems.
Btw: don’t take the words of Aluang and Cukurungan too earnestly. They are two of the provocateurs here which want to be ironic and sometimes sarcastic “poets”.
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Pieter says :-
On top of that I see myself as a free thinking Humanist & Atheist not practicing any religion
Good for you Pieter. Religion are for the Pharoahs. Moses confronted him and was banished. When Moses was away after saving the children of israel, they built a statue of a heifer and started worshipping it.
In these religious stories, God was telling mankind not to belong to any religion. Serve God by doing good and righteous deeds.
Moses never did tell the children of israel how to worship God. That is because there is no such ritual.Jesus brought similar messages. But it was too much for those with religion to understand.
Mankind are addicted to religion or worship. If they are not praying to some statues or stones, they worship their leaders. Kim jong Il makes a good example.
Most of the countries that are heavy on worship, are left behind in development. Pris in Indonesia is a good example as Muslims are spendng too much time worshipping.
Fact is the rituals are not stated in the book they believe to be from God, the koran.
Their worship rituals is from another book called the hadith and the sunnah.
Fact is that both these books were written by men of dubious distinction, probably pagans. That is why, although present day Muslims religionist believe in one God, they do rituals around a piece of stone in mecca. This stone was probably the same one the pagan Arabs were worshipping during Mohamed’s time. Mohamed failed to make the Arabs understand the true message. They revert back to their old ways bringing countless hundreds of millions with them. -
That’s right Sputjam,
That stone is a meteorite, which pagan Arabs though it was magic stone from gods. One for the conditions mecca Arabs wanted to accept Mohamed/islam was the obligation for all moslem to go to kabah. In the end, all is about money. The religion/ritual itself is dirty from a very start. No wonder so much corruption happen like in dept agama and saudi royal family.Look at the Indonesian Chinese or the rest of the western world, they are to be blame for the poverty in Indonesia and for the economical problems.
Toma, Indo poverty and problems mainly cause by native indo (govt, DPR, etc). They treat their own people like s**t. How the country can develop if its own people destroy it from inside.
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Sylvester Says:
That’s right Sputjam,
That stone is a meteorite, which pagan Arabs though it was magic stone from gods. One for the conditions mecca Arabs wanted to accept Mohamed/islam was the obligation for all moslem to go to kabah. In the end, all is about money. The religion/ritual itself is dirty from a very start.Cukurungan :
You can say anything as you wish but I tell you that the brown man would never listen the white man advice unless they’re stupid …..how can you talk about other religion if your religion is full of fake ..fake love, fake humanity, fake tolerance and fake bible…..how can Jesus, Son of Jew is depicted like Allain Delon rather than Ariel Sharon…how can God so racism
only chose Pope’s . from the white man community …for us Christianity is a fake religion derived from Jewish Religion and deliberately be engineered by Groups of Fake Priest to retain supreme of the white man spirituality above all mankind . ……so you can talk anything but we won’t listen the fake advice.Sylvester Says:
Toma, Indo poverty and problems mainly cause by native indo (govt, DPR, etc). They treat their own people like s**t. How the country can develop if its own people destroy it from inside.
Cukurungan:
You can say anything but our condition under after 62 years of Our Own Countrymen Government is much much better than 300 years under the white man Government .
Sorry all the white man, we never cease to remind all of our countrymen to “never forget” killing, slaughtering and oppression done by the white man. And I remind you that you haven’t paid back yet what you has been stolen illegally during hundred years of your present in this country.
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whitemen haven’t paid back yet….. that’s why they poured millions of dollars into relief for all your tsunami’s, natural disasters, schools and education etc etc etc etc…..
and borrowing religions from the Jews…. now that’s something Mohammad never did hey?Think Again
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Tomaculum Says
Look at the Indonesian Chinese or the rest of the western world, they are to be blame for the poverty in Indonesia and for the economical problems.
Well take a look at yourself before you speak. Before you start pointing fingers at Indonesian Chinese or the West for causing the poverty in Indonesia, why not ask people like Suharto or Habibie or any of the past few presidents? Who’s the one responsible for siphoning the billions from our national coffers into their pockets? Who ran the country so badly that it’s like crap now? The Indonesian Chinese? But they don’t even run the government!
As far as I know the Chinese in Indonesia work hard for what they want to achieve. I cant be sure if the same can be said for the so-called “pribumis”. Yet they are the victims of riots and are treated as second class people. What the heck?
To end off, please remember that when you point a finger at someone, THREE fingers are pointing back at YOU. So before you point fingers at anyone, please remember that you might just be THREE times as guilty as the person you blame for whatever you blame him/her for.
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Aluang Anak Bayang said:
Aluang, you are seriously wrong and your theology is extremely frightening. 1. I do not believe this is the wrath of Allah, however it could be argued that those disasters occurred because of the persecution against Christians. I do not believe this either. God is merciful and all compassionate. He is much more gracious – giving us time to repent from our ways – than you give him credit for.
Aluang, you have been decieved. Who has influenced you to believe this way? In adhering blindly to your religion you lack the highest moral law – Gods law. You disregard the sanctity of human life. The law of God can be summed up in one word – Love. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Aluang, you have a heart full of hate and you hope that you will be validated by Allah for your hateful ways. I recommend that you turn from those ways before it is too late. I recommend that you look into the eyes of a “sinner” or “non-Muslim” and see that you are the same.
Aluang, you are loved, regardless of your blindness.
Peace.
Khaleel.