Heretic Outreach
Jul 3rd, 2007, in News, by PatungThe government reaches out to heretics.
The head of the Bengkulu office of the Department of Religion (Depag), Mukhtaridi Baidjuri, has invited any members of non-orthodox Islamic groups to give up their strange beliefs and return to the fold of government approved Islam.
We are inviting them to return to the correct teachings, ie., those based on the Quran and hadiths of Muhammad.
He said there were many followers of heretical groups such as Ahmadiyah in Bengkulu and they often tried to spread their beliefs to others. In one village alone of North Bengkulu, called Sungai Hitam, there were 150 Ahmadiyah members, he worried. The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) had already ruled that Ahmadiyah was unacceptable, he said, because Ahmadiyah recognised a prophet after Muhammad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Pakistan, whereas in true Islam God had no more need of prophets after Muhammad bin Abdullah.
The call had already been sent out:
We have already invited them to return to true Islam, but the problem is that whether they choose to listen to us or not is up to them.
He said no force could be used to sway them, only urging and asking. However if they insisted on keeping to their false beliefs they must not attempt to proselytize to others, because this could lead to things happening that no-one wanted, he said.
168 Comments on “Heretic Outreach”
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Sputjam says:
Siva and ikhant said :-
See, without religion, there wouldnt be any of this BS.
As an athiest I can agree with you 100%
You forgot the mayhem caused by Pol Pot/Chairman Mao/Stalin/Kim Jong ll and gang.
They I beleieve are all atheist/communist. But in the end, the citizens of their respective country ended up worshipping/serving them or their party. Instead of progressing, theie societies regressed. It was only after their time that the countries they rule recovered except for North korea.And since you are an atheist who seeks the TRUTH, then bring forth your evidence of Gods non-existance.
Or are you in denial? Even with evidence all around on The Creation.
It is not important whether or not whetehr you beleive in the koran/bible/any other scriptures. But what is important is your faith in God and the next life. And beleiving in doing good things. THAT IS THE TRUTH. For your life in the hereafter will depend on your deeds alone.
Summary of the teachings of Shiva
Be kind. Be compassionate. Be honest. Be sincere. Be truthful. Be bold. Be pure. Be wise. Be virtuous. Enquire: ‘who am I’? Know thy-Self and be free.
Hey, isn’t this the backbone of every teachings, from confucianism, buddhism, islam(uncorrupted version) and Christianity?
Did Moses, Jesus and Mohamed preached about religion? If yes, how come there are no mention of religious rituals in their scriptures? In Fact, stories concerning them meeting a community worshipping something, the scriptures said that these communities are without knowledge or guidance? Why did Abraham enquired to his father ‘” What is this that you worship?”
why is it in the last supper, the twelve Jewish priest/disciples did not understand what Jesus messages were? Did he say to them that there is no requirement for a religion if you have faith in God?
But in the end, only the faithful and evoted will be guided, even after you have read any scriptures.aluang anak bayang said:-
Middle eastern scientists believed that there are 360 bones in a human, contrary to what is widely agreed among top scientists (minus moslem scientists) that there are 307 to 309 bones (I think this is the figure as I left my magazine at my office).
never came across such a passage in the koran. maybe you care to share some thoughts on where you got this from.
Shiva commented :-
I try to respect everyone’s beliefs with the exception of Islam, as I cannot respept a religion whose founder could have sex with a nine year old child.
Most Muslims believe that the sunnah and hadiths are as devine as the koran. But hadith and sunnah was never written or inspired by The God. In due respect, the above nine year old sex story was not found in the koran. Nor , as i understand it, any instructions to rape and kill, except the right to self defence or protect oneself in treacherous enviroment.
passages in the koran such as these are often ignored :-Say: ‘come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:
that you should not set-up anything with Him.
And be kind to your parents;
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend’.
‘And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;
and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.
And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;
and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember’.
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous.” (6:151-153)
The koran makes it a point to emphasis righteousness and good deeds.
It is stated everywhere that only those who believe and do deeds of righteousness
will be given and abode in heaven in the next life. Not the number of worship rituals you made etc.If you adhere to teachings fo shiva, then you are on the right track. But I am not the Judge nor the Creator.
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Ihaknt says:
Atheist is not communist. I dont discriminate people and give them ration of food. I just dont believe in religions. I do believe that there is a Creator. And I do believe living a peaceful life and treat people kindly is much better than claiming myself a religious person but pick on, kill, torture others in the name of God. To me anything in excess and anything too little is bad. Too much religion, too much communism, too much food, too much water. These days people use religions too much for personal gain, political matters or tactics. In the end it’s all about power. So for me, living in a country where I am treated equally, I am happy with it and return the same to others and treat them kindly. No point living life with hatred, suspisions, ill thoughts, etc.
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Atheist do not believe in a Creator. Therefore, ihaknt is not an atheist.
You are a believer and perhaps do deeds of righteousness. That, from what i understand it, is all you need to do. -
I never claim myself as as atheist. Just a religion non-believer. Creator yes, religion no.
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Cukurungan says:
Shiva:
So Chucky, I have shown that prostitution is part and parcel of islam, can you show us where Hinduism ordains prostitution.Cukurungan :
As your request here we go
Incest in Hinduism ?
Due to the strict restrictions and regulations one feature arose that is apparently more common in Hindu society than in any other part of the world: incest. References to this practice abound. Often the girls were unwilling, but were then forced by their brothers/fathers. References abound even in the Rg Veda, showing that the perversion of brother-sister incest was introduced by the ancient Hindus :
Pushan is the lover of his sister [ Rg Ved VI.55.4 ] [ Apte 11 ] . Agni is the lover of his own sister [ Rg Ved X.3.3 ] [ Apte 11 ] . Ashvins are referred to as the sons of Savitar and Ushas who are brother and sister [ Apte 11 ]. The Ashvisns married Surya and Savitri who is their sister [ RV I.116.19 ]. Agni is the son of his fatehr and his sister [ Rg Ved.I.91.7 ] Yama wards off his sister Yami, saying marriage between brother and sister is forbidden [ R.V.X.10 ] [ Apte 11 ] Father-daughter incest occurs in the famous story of Prajapati (later identified with Brahma, in tunr incorporated as an incarnation of Vishnu) and his daughter [ RV III.31.1-2 ]. Moreover, this was punished. Prajapati is thought to have done something wrong, and Prajapati was pierced by Agni as a punishment [ Sat.Br. XIII.9 ] [ Apte 63 ].
It is evident that the strict laws on male-female relations led to the repression of normal practies and the rise of various perversions like brother-sister incest, father-daughter incest etc. Even to this day incest of varying degrees (cross-cousin, father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister, etc.) is extremely common amongst the Hindus. No other race on earth has ever recorded such a prevalance of this practice. Just as sodomy has its home in Persia, Lesbianism in ancient Lesbos, so incest has its home amongst the Hindus.Porn in Hindu Scripture ?
Pornography in Ramayana
Dr. Charles claims that ramayana contains much pornographic material and cannot be read in public. He gives the following examples. Rama’s description of Sita’s beauty which is lewdly detailed (refer to C.R. Srinivasalyengar’s translation of Aryana Kandam, Chapter 46). In Kiskind Kandam, Rama explains to Lakshmana of his sexual experience with Sita. According to Ramayana, the Aryans (Brahmins) used to drink liquor (nine different kinds), eat meat, marry many wives and prostitution was an accepted way of life amongst the priests and gods. Ramayana also recounts the “story of King Dasharatha”, who in order to have a baby son, made a big sacrrifice (yaham) of sheep, cattles, horses, birds and snakes. He then delivered his three wives Kaushaliya, Sumatirai and Kaikeyi to three priests. These holy men, having fully satisfied their carnal desire, returned the ladies to the King. By this means, the king was able to have three sons – Ram, Lakshman and Bharat (Bala kandam, Chapter 14. For more details on yaham, refer to the book “Gnana Surian”, published by Kudi Arasu Press). The Ramayan tells us much about the unlawful relationship of incest but we do not feel it appropriate or decent for us to go into details. (Please refer to Aranya Kandam, Chapter 45, Verses 122, 123, 124 and 125).
The following Hindu practices will reveal how immorality and indecency are sanctified in the name of Hinduism.
Lingam & Yoni
Lingam and Yoni are the male and female sexual organs respectively. Hindus are allowed to worship anything – including sexual organs. It is not unknown for them to name their children Shiva Lingam (God Shiva’s sexual organ) or Rama Lingam (God Rama’s sexual organ). In some place in Karnataka, the gods demand both males and demales ro pray naked together.
Devadasi (Religious Prostitution)
The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests (Brahmins). The latter, with their ideological and religious hold over the peasants and craftsmen, devised a means that gave prostitution their religious sanction. Poor, low-caste girls, initially sold at private auctions, were later dedicated to the temples. They were then initiated into prostitution.
Bharat Natyam & The Brahmins
The Bharat Natyam is a dance performance which, because of the Brahmin media, has gained much recognition as a form of art. The celebrated Bharat Natya expert, Rukminii Devi, admits in a National Geographic video programme, that the Bharat Natya was really the art of Devadasi (temple prostitutes) to please their audience and admirers. This is the reason why you might have seen various Bharatha Natya’s postures in Hindu temples.
Maybe like the art of KARATE to the japanese, the BHARAT NATYAM is a national art of the Brahmins and very much part of their culture.
The Kamasutra
Brahminism has also created Kamasutra – a set of instructions on how to have sexual intercourse. Some of the postures detailed in Kamasutra are so complex that they only be performed with the help of one or more ASSISTANTS!
The Devadasii System Thrives
UNI. – TIMES OF INDIA – 10th Nov. 1987: confirms that the practice of dedicating young Harijan girls (mahars, Mangs, Dowris and Chambhar) at childhood to a goddess, and their initiation into prostitution when they attain puberty continues to thrives in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and other parts of South India. This is largely due to social backwardness, poverty and illiteracy, according to a study by two doctors of the India health Organisation. The report clearly indicates that the Devadasi system was the result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests (Brahmins), who with their ideological and religious hold over the peasants and craftsmen, devised a practice which acquired religious sanction. They noted in their study on – “Devadasis – the link between religious culture and child prostitution”. The study revealed that girls from poor families are married tio God Krishna and are sold after puberty at private auctions to a high caste master who initially pays a sum of money to the families ranging from Rs 500/- to Rs5,000/-. The study, made during health camps organised by the World Health Organisation (WHO) in the devadasi populated areas, revealed that the dedicated girls formed 15 percent of the total women involved in prostitution in the country, and as much as 70 percent to 80 percent of the prostitutes in the border districts of karnataka and Maharashtra.
The Naked Hindu Yogis of Kashi
Many of the Yogis of Kashi (Banaras) live naked and beg for their living. They
live in dirty, unhydienic conditions and drug addiction is rife among them.
Our so-called leaders and intellectuals have all contributed to the superstitious beliefs and they have helped these saints to thrive and practice deceptive methods to cheat the public. It is an utter shame that among the worshippers of such naked godmen, there are a number of high court judges, advocates, engineers, doctors, professors, politicians, cinema actors and actresses. For more details on these Hindu saints and Yogis,
The Miracle Man
How Rishis were Created?
According to the Hindu Holy books, God Brahma arranged the marriage of god Shiva to goddess Parvathi. When they went around the fire as per Hindu religious ritual, god Shiva looked at the thighs of goddess parvathi and ejaculated his semen into the fire and they became Rishis (priests). According to the Hindu Puranas this “god” can do such a filthy act!
Sex with Cows
In many Hindu temples, there are sculptures depicting men having sex not only with women but also cows. What is the meaning of this? Is not the cow sacred? If it is, then it should be worshipped not sexually assaulted -
Arema says:
Hi Shiva,
I’ve read your post with great interest. They are very informative, and I have to thank you for disclosing such details to us.
Your conclusion about Mecca verses (which mostly are the “sweet” part of Islam) were overwritten by the subsequent Medinah verses (where Muhammad has gained power, mostly the “bloodshed” part of Islam), is very close or even the same with the conclusion I’ve had so far: Islam is like a poisonous sour candy. Let me explain why I choose that word.
I heard this story from my friend, who previously was a devout Muslim cleric, but self-converted to a Christian based on his own study about Islam! I find it too amazing to be true, but it is true. Here is the story, I faintly remember it, I hope I get it right…
Muhammad was raised under the care of his uncle, if I’m not mistaken his name was Abu Talib, who is a Christian priest (it’s controversial, I know, but my friend, after his extensive research, concluded this). Muhammad learned a lot from his uncle, and liked his uncle’s teachings. Muhammad didn’t like what he saw in Mecca, where people are doing pagan rituals and the kind. Muhammad started to “try his best” to turn these people “to the correct path”. He managed to gather some follower, and preached peace, solidarity, and tolerance to attract more followers. His uncle played a significant part on his Meccan verses. Whether Muhammad really made up the story about he receiving divine message from above (which later compiled into Quran) or he really received it but abused it is another story, and not so important thing to be discussed, for now. He has managed to gather lots of followers that time. Up to this point, it’s the candy part.
When Muhammad was in Medinah, his uncle passed away, and after that, Muhammad did not utter any verses for 2 years. Things started to get awfully wrong when Muhammad started to abuse his “words from god” for his own interest. I don’t need to elaborate here, you all know it better than me… He befriended the Jews, but after the Jews become a disposable component in his army, he betrayed them using his “overriding verses from god”. He treated women as “playing objects for men” using his verses. etc, etc, etc. The candy turned to a sour candy.
Unfortunately, Muhammad’s follower were too indoctrinated with his teachings and will do whatever he says, partly because what he says are “from god”. Muhammad’s followers just do whatever is told by their prophet, intoxicated by it. By then, the sour candy get poisonous, destructive, and contagious. Muhammad himself may have no idea what kind of impact his words had on the world right now, but we all know it.
What Sputjam, M.Kahfi, and some others believe in, the “real and peaceful Islam”, is actually a modified Christianity, and an “overwritten” version of Islam. They somehow managed to force their brain to sugar-coat the Medinah verses, and interpreted it to be as acceptable as possible. Muhammad has shown his true face after his uncle passed away, and that is the holy prophet Muslims had devoutly and blindly following up to this very moment.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
If what Cuk wrote about Hinduism is true, then by gosh, both Islam and Hinduism are the most deviant, sick to the core.
Sputjam,
aluang anak bayang said:-
Middle eastern scientists believed that there are 360 bones in a human, contrary to what is widely agreed among top scientists (minus moslem scientists) that there are 307 to 309 bones (I think this is the figure as I left my magazine at my office).
never came across such a passage in the koran. maybe you care to share some thoughts on where you got this from.
I couldn’t find the magazine, it might pop up somewhere, someday, but I would like you to have a read of it. It is a science journal entitled “Science and Islam” in bold on its front page. I bought it off the magazine rack from Periplus Bookstore in Denpasar 2 weeks ago, but I presume it should still be available in any bookstore. There are more quranic idiocy than the bones I mentioned. And there is also a blanket reference of Indonesia tsunami and earthquake by a top Egyptian scientist, that Allah punished the moslem for tolerating the immoral behaviour of non-moslem.
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Shiva says:
Sputjam Says:
You forgot the mayhem caused by Pol Pot/Chairman Mao/Stalin/Kim Jong ll and gang.
They I believe are all atheist/communist.
Yes you are quite right, they caused mayhem, and may I add the caused Mass murder. These men and their evil regimes are today seen for what they are EVIL MEN, who turned violence into a religion.
And since you are an atheist who seeks the TRUTH, then bring forth your evidence of Gods non-existance.
Remember also that it is the person making a positive claim who has to prove it.
Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of god, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan
If there is no way to know this but to trust people who claim they have had “divine experiences” there is no way to tell true from false (Mohammed for Example) prophets.
One has to give up his free mind and follow the authority of a dictator (Mohammed).
Neccesary a god is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a god.
Not any of the existing religions can provide such a god.
How do we know if there are no undiscovered beings worthy our submission?
Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against god holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.
There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against god, that you can do to try the existence of god.
Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence.
If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible:
(1) God does not exist,
(2) God does not want to or
(3) God can’t give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1).
So if you get no response there is no god.
Remember also that it is the person making a positive claim who has to prove it,
There is no god.
Be kind. Be compassionate. Be honest. Be sincere. Be truthful. Be bold. Be pure. Be wise. Be virtuous. Enquire: ‘who am I’? Know thy-Self and be free.
Hey, isn’t this the backbone of every teachings, from confucianism, buddhism, islam(uncorrupted version) and Christianity?
No it is not the backbone to Islam
Here is the backbone of islam(uncorrupted version)
Qur’an:9:88
“The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5
“Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112
“The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29
“Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325
“Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an:8:39
“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39
“So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”Most Muslims believe that the sunnah and hadiths are as devine as the koran. But hadith and sunnah was never written or inspired by The God. In due respect, the above nine year old sex story was not found in the koran. Nor , as i understand it, any instructions to rape and kill, except the right to self defence or protect oneself in treacherous enviroment.
There are two categories of Muslims. Those who accept the authenticity of the Quran and the Hadith with no ifs or buts, and those who deny the Hadith, partially or totally and try to reinterpret the Quran in ways completely opposite to its apparent meaning so that it become acceptable to a reasonable mind.
For 1200 years Bukhari’s collection of hadithes was regarded (and still is) by the majority of the Muslims only second to Quran. Apart from the Quran, Muslims, especially the Sunnis, regard Hadithes as the source of guidance. The hadithes are stories of the life of Muhammad, collected by scholars in the second and third century after the Hijra.
The most famous and revered ones are those of Bukhari and his student Muslim. They are called Sahih (correct, sound or authenticated) because they went through a process of authentication called Ilmul Hadith.
However there is a new trend amongst some of the Muslims especially the submitters to deny the authenticity of hadithes all together. They would go as far as to call the eminent compilers of the hadithes liars and charlatans. The point is that these writers did not tell these stories to deserve such disparaging title; they simply collected them and preserved them.
The early Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih only when its authenticity was established on the basis of both Fann-i-Riwaayat (The art of sequence of narration) and Fann-i-Daraayat (The art of logical concordance).
Moreover a Hadith should not have contradicted the Sunnah and the Quran.
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Aluang :
If what Cuk wrote about Hinduism is true, then by gosh, both Islam and Hinduism are the most deviant, sick to the core.
Cukurungan :
Before you take a conclusion check below:
http://heartlandvalues.blogspot.com/ -
Let us all forget about holy scriptures for a brief moment
Let us now focus on God’s existence.
Let us now examine why various cultures have a notion of heaven and hell, although their basic beliefs can be diverse.Ever heard of clinical deaths anyone?
these are people who died temporarily for several minutes and thereafter regain conciousness.
They all have similar tales concerning how, in a very brief moment, they recall everything they did in their lifetime in front a being of light. almost all became very religious after their experience.As for comments made regarding hadiths and sunnah, we can disregards these writings altogether, as we can all conclude that it was not by God.
As for the koran’s main message for those who believe that it is devine-
a) God is against any form of religion and worship rituals.
b) warnings against being led by clerics.
c) serve God by doing good deeds of righteousness, for you will be judged by your deeds alone.as for the slaying passages, please do not rely on orthodox translation. These translations were written by the very same people who wrote the sunnah and hadiths.
here is an orthodox translation of a slaying passage by yusof Ali:-190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
and here is a new generation view-
2:190 You shall confront in the path of God against those who confront against you – and there shall be no aggression. Indeed God – He dislikes those who are aggressive.
2:191 And you shall confront them wherever you are confronted – and expel them from wherever they expel you – and slandering is worse than fighting. And do not confront them by the sanctioned consented decrees – unless they confront you in it. Therefore, when they confront you – you must confront them. That would be the just response for those who do not trust.
2:192 Thus – if they refrain – then, God is forgiver – merciful.
2:193 And you must confront them until there is no more slandering. And the orderly way of life is for God alone. Therefore if they refrain – thus there shall be no more hostility – except over those who are unjust.Of course, the above will be mere academic for atheist/non-believers and stone worshippping pagans whose lifes are dictated by clerics.
for believer like me, there are no contradictions in the koran. If one message contradicts another, then a closer scrutiny is called for. No such thing as “overwriting of previous passages”.
It is up to you whether to believe or not –
2:284 For God belongs the skies and whatever there is in the earth – and if you express whatever within your own self or hide it – God makes you accountable with it – thus He forgives to whomever He will – and He punishes whoever He wills – and God is over every single thing – in full control
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AREMA:
I heard this story from my friend, who previously was a devout Muslim cleric, but self-converted to a Christian based on his own study about Islam! I find it too amazing to be true, but it is true. Here is the story, I faintly remember it, I hope I get it right
“¦Cukurungan :
My advice be yourself becoz the reason of the religion convert is subject of the endless debates see below:Yvonne Ridley, Washington post – London, USA
Monday, October 23, 2006I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures — until I was captured by the Taliban. In September 2001, just 15 days after the terrorist attacks on the United States , I snuck into Afghanistan , clad in a head-to-toe blue burqa, intending to write a newspaper account of life under the repressive regime. Instead, I was discovered, arrested and detained for 10 days. I spat and swore at my captors; they called me a “bad” woman but let me go after I promised to read the Koran and study Islam. (Frankly, I’m not sure who was happier when I was freed — they or I.)
Back home in London , I kept my word about studying Islam — and was amazed by what I discovered. I’d been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women. Two-and-a-half years after my capture, I converted to Islam, provoking a mixture of astonishment, disappointment and encouragement among friends and relatives.
Now, it is with disgust and dismay that I watch here in Britain as former foreign secretary Jack Straw describes the Muslim nikab — a face veil that reveals only the eyes — as an unwelcome barrier to integration, with Prime Minister Tony Blair, writer Salman Rushdie and even Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi leaping to his defense.
Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. They go on about veils, child brides, female circumcision, honor killings and forced marriages, and they wrongly blame Islam for all this — their arrogance surpassed only by their ignorance.
These cultural issues and customs have nothing to do with Islam. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago. Women in Islam are considered equal to men in spirituality, education and worth, and a woman’s gift for childbirth and child-rearing is regarded as a positive attribute.
When Islam offers women so much, why are Western men so obsessed with Muslim women’s attire? Even British government ministers Gordon Brown and John Reid have made disparaging remarks about the nikab — and they hail from across the Scottish border, where men wear skirts.
When I converted to Islam and began wearing a headscarf, the repercussions were enormous. All I did was cover my head and hair — but I instantly became a second-class citizen. I knew I’d hear from the odd Islamophobe, but I didn’t expect so much open hostility from strangers. Cabs passed me by at night, their “for hire” lights glowing. One cabbie, after dropping off a white passenger right in front of me, glared at me when I rapped on his window, then drove off. Another said, “Don’t leave a bomb in the back seat” and asked, “Where’s bin Laden hiding?”
Yes, it is a religious obligation for Muslim women to dress modestly, but the majority of Muslim women I know like wearing the hijab, which leaves the face uncovered, though a few prefer the nikab. It is a personal statement: My dress tells you that I am a Muslim and that I expect to be treated respectfully, much as a Wall Street banker would say that a business suit defines him as an executive to be taken seriously. And, especially among converts to the faith like me, the attention of men who confront women with inappropriate, leering behavior is not tolerable.
I was a Western feminist for many years, but I’ve discovered that Muslim feminists are more radical than their secular counterparts. We hate those ghastly beauty pageants, and tried to stop laughing in 2003 when judges of the Miss Earth competition hailed the emergence of a bikini-clad Miss Afghanistan , Vida Samadzai, as a giant leap for women’s liberation. They even gave Samadzai a special award for “representing the victory of women’s rights.”
Some young Muslim feminists consider the hijab and the nikab political symbols, too, a way of rejecting Western excesses such as binge drinking, casual sex and drug use. What is more liberating: being judged on the length of your skirt and the size of your surgically enhanced breasts, or being judged on your character and intelligence? In Islam, superiority is achieved through piety — not beauty, wealth, power, position or sex .
I didn’t know whether to scream or laugh when Italy’s Prodi joined the debate last week by declaring that it is “common sense” not to wear the nikab because it makes social relations “more difficult.” Nonsense. If this is the case, then why are cellphones, landlines, e-mail, text messaging and fax machines in daily use? And no one switches off the radio because they can’t see the presenter’s face.
Under Islam, I am respected. It tells me that I have a right to an education and that it is my duty to seek out knowledge, regardless of whether I am single or married. Nowhere in the framework of Islam are we told that women must wash, clean or cook for men . As for how Muslim men are allowed to beat their wives — it’s simply not true. Critics of Islam will quote random Koranic verses or hadith, but usually out of context. If a man does raise a finger against his wife, he is not allowed to leave a mark on her body, which is the Koran’s way of saying, “Don’t beat your wife, stupid.”
It is not just Muslim men who must reevaluate the place and treatment of women. According to a recent National Domestic Violence Hotline survey, 4 million American women experience a serious assault by a partner during an average 12-month period. More than three women are killed by their husbands and boyfriends every day — that is nearly 5,500 since 9/11.
Violent men don’t come from any particular religious or cultural category; one in three women around the world has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime, according to the hotline survey. This is a global problem that transcends religion, wealth, class, race and culture.
But it is also true that in the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work — whether in the mailroom or the boardroom — and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.
And for those who are still trying to claim that Islam oppresses women, recall this 1992 statement from the Rev. Pat Robertson, offering his views on empowered women: Feminism is a “socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”
Now you tell me who is civilized and who is not.hermosh@aol.com
Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London and coauthor
of “In the Hands of the Taliban: Her Extraordinary Story” (Robson Books). -
Hi Cuk,
Thanks for sharing that story with me. One thing I want to know about is what is the thing that made Yvonne decide to convert herself into Muslim. She did not mention that in that story.Back home in London , I kept my word about studying Islam “” and was amazed by what I discovered. I’d been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women. Two-and-a-half years after my capture, I converted to Islam
My impression after reading that is: she converted because after reading Quran, she found that Islam is not as bad as she thought. She even found some verses about women that “promotes the liberation of women” that touches her. Well, that’s good, but I feel it’s too weak for a reason to convert. It must be something else.
Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. They go on about veils, child brides, female circumcision, honor killings and forced marriages, and they wrongly blame Islam for all this “” their arrogance surpassed only by their ignorance.
When I converted to Islam and began wearing a headscarf, the repercussions were enormous. All I did was cover my head and hair “” but I instantly became a second-class citizen. I knew I’d hear from the odd Islamophobe, but I didn’t expect so much open hostility from strangers. Cabs passed me by at night, their “for hire” lights glowing. One cabbie, after dropping off a white passenger right in front of me, glared at me when I rapped on his window, then drove off. Another said, “Don’t leave a bomb in the back seat” and asked, “Where’s bin Laden hiding?”
About the responses of people against her, it is somewhat understandable and expected. Terrorists have done an excellent job in defaming Islam’s name, and avoidance is an expected people’s reaction toward Muslims. And it turns out worse because Muslim are taught “to do bad / reciprocate when you’re treated badly”, which of course confirms people’s belief that you guys are actually not-so-good people. We’ve seen Quran verses quotes in the previous posts like “confront those who confront you, etc” which exactly why this growing hostility and discrimination problem will never end.
I am not saying that people should avoid Muslims, not at all. I’m also on your side that Muslims should not be discriminated. Jesus Himself said “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:43-44). It is arguably one of the most difficult things to do, among all Jesus’ orders. Love your enemies… sounds absurd, but if you think more clearly, it is the only way to achieve true peace, not a mere peace treaty.
Having said that, Muslims must also look at themselves in the mirror. I don’t need to mention how many cases Muslims treated the so-called infidels like animals. Your discrimination is way more prevalent than what the world has shown against Muslims. And compared to us disliking someone among us converted to Muslim, your killing of someone among you converted to some other religion is much more inhumane. With all due respect, Muslims need to introspect themselves more, think more, and shout less.
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for believer like me, there are no contradictions in the koran. If one message contradicts another, then a closer scrutiny is called for. No such thing as “overwriting of previous passages”.
Sputjam, if you believe in the Almighty God, you should know that He will never ever make any mistake, and His Words will contain nothing but the truth from the moment it is said until forever. I think until this point we agree on each other.
Shiva has quoted numerous verses (Medinah) that he claimed to overrode the earlier (Mecca) verses. Rather than keep on mentioning that the Mecca verses is good (we know it is), why don’t you try convincing us by giving your interpretation on the controversial Medinah verses, and why those Medinah verses do not override the previous Mecca verses? And you should emphasize on how these two seemingly contradicting verses can coexist without violating one another.
Without doing that, you’re just reinforcing our belief that Muhammad was playing God, saying whatever that suits Him on any particular situation.
“I bought a book about mathematics. The first part of the book taught me 1+1=2. I gladly accepted it, I thoroughly understand it, everyone accept it. What a good book! The second part of the book, however, taught me 1+1=3. I am confused, but since I believe that it is a good book written by a credible author, it must be correct too. 1+1 can be 2 or 3. I explained that this book is good to everyone and they think I’m an idiot. Nevermind, since they accept 1+1=2, I’ll just emphasizing on that to promote this good book”. This is what you did.
It doesn’t work. You have to explain “why 1+1 can be 2 or 3, and why those two equalities can coexist without contradicting one another”, then we can continue our discussion in the right direction. Currently it’s just circling around to no end.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Shiva said:
Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence.
If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible:
(1) God does not exist,
(2) God does not want to or
(3) God can’t give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1).So if you get no response there is no god.There is still another possibility: God (or what we consider to be God) does not yet fully exist but is a part of the cosmic process. It’s too intricate to elaborate here, but try Encyclopaedia Britannica under ‘process philosophy’, ‘Charles Hartshorne’ and ‘Alfred North Whitehead’. Also try ‘panentheism’.
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As to Cukurungan’s story about Yvonne Ridley
I was a Western feminist for many years, but I’ve discovered that Muslim feminists are more radical than their secular counterparts.
Some Western feminists are prepared to go great lengths to get coverage for venting their frustrations, even playing the devil’s advocate. If she likes Afghanistan that much why doesn’t she go live there, where women have to hold secret meetings to try out make-up and other things women from all over the world usually value? But no
Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London!
Doesn’t this ring a bell? How much does she get paid for the job, and by whom?
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Aluang :
If what Cuk wrote about Hinduism is true, then by gosh, both Islam and Hinduism are the most deviant, sick to the core.
Cukurungan :
Before you take a conclusion check below:
http://heartlandvalues.blogspot.com/Yes, I agree. Abrahamic religions breed sexual perverts. That is why Christianity is declining. These ‘holy’ priests like little boys. Mohammad himself even screwed a 9 years old girl and raped captured women. He even revealed verses to say adopted daughters and daughter-in-laws are halal. No wonder sane person who understand Islam immediately discarded the hadiths.
I heard Hinduism sacrifice babies on altar but I don’t know if they do actually practice them. Balineses seem tolerant and peaceful.
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Denny Crane says:
Lock and Load for repects
Some people just cannot handle simple logics indeed…
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Well done for the wonder klipping of two super Jew haters
Mohamed Ghounem & Abdur Rahman
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/in9.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/in10.htmlThe Authors give Full Permission to Use any of the Above Material As Your Own to distribute for Free.
By using there work word for word you like them fail to prove that Hinduism condomes Incest or prostitution.
The do not
Also the articles are written in such a way that incest was practiced in early Indian society,s ..In fact all the acts of Incest where that from Indian Mythology
As society evolved into a more cultured format, the creation myths changed from dismemberment of an existing entity to creation from divine energy.
In some myths the Creator creates a female counterpart for himself and produces progeny whose offspring is the human race.
In others the Creator produces the first male and first female humans who procreate and multiply.
The second model is adopted in the Book of Genesis. Hindu mythologies have both these versions.
In the Creation described in the article Manu and Shatrupa Brahma creates Manu and Shatrupa as the first couple.
This is taken from the Bhagavata Purana. In the Matsya Purana the first model is described. Brahma creates Shatrupa as his consort and Manu is their offspring. Then a female offspring Ananti is produced as Manu’s wife and they further the human race.
Whichever model is chosen there are undertones of incest. If the matter is viewed objectively then incest is unavoidable if we consider the human race to be descended from one couple.
However the point that is important is mythologies evolve as per the changing values in society.
Here is the ironic part. As Hindu elvolved into human form Incest was less
Both Muslims and Christians claim the the respectives books are the trueth
Chucky your anti-Hindu agenda lacks any rational basis and you seem to revel in drawing completely incorrect conclusions from the half-truths you dig out.
Any creationist model necessarily involves incest. Even the Adam-Eve story believed in by both Muslims and Christians involves brother-sister incest (amongst their children).
** Lot, Abraham’s nephew, begat two sons by his own daughters while in a drunken stupor (Genesis 19:30-35).
** Ruben was intimate with Bilhah, his father’s concubine (Genesis 35:22)
** Amnon, one of David’s sons, committed incest/rape against his half-sister, Tamar (2 Samuel 13:7-14)
** Abraham and Sarah were half-brother and sister (Genesis 20:12).
So merely recording the occurance of incest in an ancient text is not evidence of societal approval of the same – be it a Christian, Islamic or Hindu society.
On the other hand, if you’re honest, why don’t you turn your attention to a contemporary society such as Malaysia, which is notorious for rampant incest, and give us your learned comments on why the Shariah law ends up actually punishing the victims rather than the perpetrators.
I understand that under Shariah, a girl is considered adult after her first menstruation and so, a 13-year old victim of incestual rape is often charged with “khalwat” or “close proximity” (the charge usually used to prosecute premarital or extramarital sexual relations) if she complains.
So Shariah courts end up punishing victims of statutory rape rather than the rapists. Moreover Shari’a courts are more lenient with males who were charged with “close proximity.”
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Chucky
In Iran, a 13-year-old girl has been sentenced to death because her 15-year-old brother got her pregnant. The boy, of course, doesn’t face a death sentence – he’ll only be whipped 150 times with a lash. Zhila Izadi just gave birth to her child so now she is eligible for stoning by the community.
Iran Focus reports (via TalkLeft):She was accused of committing ‘moral sin’ and giving birth to an ‘unholy child’. Her brother a 15-year-old boy who was also accused and is currently in prison in Tehran was given a sentence of 150 lashes, in accordance with Islamic laws. … As a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, Iran is bound not to execute child offenders. Women’s Forum Against Fundamentalism in Iran comments:
Jila was raped and impregnated by her brother and Iran’s clerical judge has sentenced her to death by stoning. According to the Iranian regime’s penal code, stoning is the punishment for those who commit adultery. Jila did not commit adultery; rather she is a victim of rape. Stoning in Iran is carried out as “the condemned are wrapped head to foot in white shrouds and buried up to their waists.” The misogynous regime of Tehran even details the difference between the stoning of men vs. women. “The female condemned are buried up to their neck to prevent their escape.” Furthermore, “the stones are specifically chosen so they are large enough to cause pain, but not so large as to kill the condemned immediately. They are guaranteed a slow, torturous death. Sometimes their children are forced to watch.”
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Sputjam Says:
You try and overlook that abrogation exists
Well why is it Muslims refuse to drink alcohol when the Koran clearly states
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed –
Surah 2:219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk,
Surah 4:43:
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
Note that Yusuf Ali in his translation uses the phrase “mind befogged”. Other Muslim scholars who have translated the Quran render the phrase slightly differently:
Pickthall uses the word “drunken”, and Shakir uses “intoxicated”. It is clear that being intoxicated is the intended meaning. Also, during the battle of Uhud a number of Muslims were killed, some of whom had alcoholic drinks the morning of the battle.
This can be seen from the Sahih (authentic) Hadith of Bukhari on the ill-fated battle.
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 142:
Narrated Jabir:
Some people drank alcoholic beverages in the morning (of the day) of the Uhud battle and on the same day they were killed as martyrs,Sputjam
So tell me why Muslims cannot drink alcohol when you have the above verses saying it is okay
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Arema:
Shiva has quoted numerous verses (Medinah) that he claimed to overrode the earlier (Mecca) verses. Rather than keep on mentioning that the Mecca verses is good (we know it is), why don’t you try convincing us by giving your interpretation on the controversial Medinah verses, and why those Medinah verses do not override the previous Mecca verses? And you should emphasize on how these two seemingly contradicting verses can coexist without violating one another.Cukurungan:
There is no overriding in Quran verses, each verses shall be applied according its context. Mecca Verses are the applicable guidance during peace times while the medina verses should be applicable during the War Time when all peace agreement and treaty are broken. However due to the enormous consequences of the Medina Verses according to the mainstream beliefs it shall be applied if the following condition meet:
1) A foreign country attack our country and our legitimate rulers (Goverment) order us to fight back, in this case the medina verses becomes a moslem compulsory obligations
2) Islam 5 pillars obligations couldn’t be implemented safely due to oppression other belief
3) There is a clear threat toward our existence and our way of life from our enemies.
All Quran verses uses initiation ” Dengan Nama Allah yg Maha pengasih dan penyayang” however , in beginning of the medina sword verses or At-taubah, God remove those initiation and directly announce War against un-believers who betrayed and violated the peace agreement toward us.
However please be reminded that Islam is a religion without priest in our beliefs every moslem is equal in front of God and has full rights to interpret Quran verses by their own.
Osama bin Laden is one of them, according him in today world’s there is no more legitimate of the islam rulers and he took over those position and announced the Jihad War (application of Medina Verses) against the west or US.
For ummah or common moslem like me, there is also many option I can becomes a goods moslem by doing only the minimum 5 pillars Islam (Sahadat, Sholat, puasa, zakat and Haji if I am a rich) , it is clear that Jihad obligations is beyond the compulsory of the fives pillars.
But if you have enterpreneourship talent, God offered us a special deal “whoever moslem are willing to make a deal or trade with God by sacrificing his wealth and his souls in order to elevate God Names and God Deens, God will exchange their sacrifice with Garden or Heaven.”Arema:
Hi Cuk,
Thanks for sharing that story with me. One thing I want to know about is what is the thing that made Yvonne decide to convert herself into Muslim. She did not mention that in that story.Cukurungan :
Sorry I couldn’t found yet article about her reason to convert
but here we go you can find the testimony of the priest convert to Islam :story 1
Many people ask me how a preacher or priest in Christianity can ever go to Islam, especially considering all the negative things that we hear about Islam and Muslims everyday. I would like to thank everyone for their interest and offer my humble story, God Willing.A Christian Priest
I was born into a very strong Christian family in the Midwest. Our family and their ancestors not only built the churches and schools across this land, but actually were the same ones who came here in the first place. While I was still in elementary we relocated in Houston, Texas in 1949 (I’m old). We attended church regularly and I was baptized at the age of 12 in Pasadena, Texas. For details story you can check in:http://www.welcome-back.org/profile/yestes.shtml
Â
story 2
Â
Professor, Theologian, Missionary, Pastor, Church Planter, Licensed Ordained Minister, fundamentalist Christian, not a likely candidate for Islam. Yet, 6 years ago, after being raised in the Christian church all my life, (first as a Roman Catholic and then as a Born-Again, Spirit-Filled Christian) and having completed a Standard Ministerial Diploma, Bachelor of Theology and a Master of Divinity, I embraced Islam! What was it that brought about such a radical change?
I started to question Christian beliefs while I was studying for my Master’s degree. As was my habit, I read through the Bible once every year for 12 years. I had done this along with multiple readings in connection with my preaching, teaching and studies. It was during these readings that I started to notice certain contradictions.
For instance, we teach the doctrine of Original Sin from Genesis 3 but it is contradicted in Ezekiel 18:1-22. If this basic doctrine is not true, the whole foundation of all Christianity falls. I saw these things as I read, and always stopped to ponder them, but never had time to research them because of my studies, etc.Details her story please check
http://www.islamuncovered.com/mainstory/shockingtruth.htm -
Cuk, re story 2.
This man is a professor so I presumed he is well-learned. He must have come across hadiths that allowed sex with children and liked it. Maybe it is the afterlife reward of virgins and pearly boys. It is no surprise that to be his ulterior motive. You see, a pervert with paedophilia inclination is not allowed to have sex with little girl by law of the land, of course he would convert to Islam since it is halal, even claiming that to be God given rights.
Look at yourself, your posts repeatedly showed that you fantasized having a harem of wives. Islam allows it and so you cling onto that fairytale book of yours, and even to the extent of disavowing your heritage background. If Buddhism allowed polygamy, I bet you will be the first in the queue to convert. Use your brain, brother.
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Chucky
I will reply by reponding to you last comments first
Sorry I couldn’t found yet article about her (Ridley) reason to convert
Chucky likes to give little stories
This one came to mind while thinking how to answer the story about the pathetic bitch Yvonne Ridley
When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca’s inhabitants.
They brought him to Muhammad. Muhammad told him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “I do believe that.” Muhammad then said to him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul.” The ‘Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: “Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword.”
Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim.
This is God in Islam, my dear friends””a God who is satisfied with the testimony of the tongue of a person who is under the threat of death. But “the heartfelt faith” will come later! The important thing is to increase the number of Muslims either by threat or by propagation!
Chucky
You are very fond of clip and pasting
I doubt very much you understand half of what you paste
There is no overriding in Quran verses, each verses shall be applied according its context.
Bring forth the koranic verses the support this claim.
Those who say that the Islamic wars were always defensive do not understand Islam and have not read sufficient history. It should be evident that offensive wars to spread Islam are the heart of the entire religion of Islam. They embody the meaning of “Striving for the cause of God”””holy war to make the Word of God supreme over the whole world.
One of Muhammad’s popular claims is that God commanded him to fight people until they become Muslims and carry out the ordinances of Islam. All Muslim scholars without exception agree on this. Muhammad said:
Bukhari Vol. I, p. 13.
“I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me”“The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic Jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of God said: ‘I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message …”‘
It has been deducted from Muhammad’s statement that this is the concept of offensive war””this is Holy War as it is known in Islamic jurisprudence.
Notice by his statement also that this matter is a duty incumbent on every Muslim in every age. !
No infidel [unbeliever] should be left on his land as it is denoted from Muhammad’s statement: ‘I was commanded to fight the people
This claim by Muhammad and its generally-accepted meaning are recorded not only by these contemporary scholars in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but are also quoted in the following sources:
° The Sahih of al-Bukhari, part I, p. 13.
° The Sahih of Muslim, part I, p. 267 (The Interpretation of the Nawawi).
° The Commentary of Ibn Kathir, p. 336
° The Muhalla (the Sweetened), Vol. 4, p. 317
° “The Ordinances of the Qur’an” by al-Shafi’i, p. 51, part II (on the authority of Abu Huraira).
° Mishkat of al-Masabih, part 1, p. 9.
Almost all major Islamic references have quoted this statement because it is one of the most famous sayings of Muhammad which he followed and which he commanded his followers to implement.
Many provocative and painful events were inflicted on individuals and tribes in the course of Muhammad’s life. Muhammad, as we will see, used to exhort his followers:
“Invitation first (that is, call them first to embrace Islam). If they refuse, then war.”
In other words, he told his followers not to kill anybody unless you first invite him to embrace Islam.
Only if he rejects it, must he be killed.
We have here two babbling Muslims here who can not prove I am wrong about Abrogation
There is no overriding in Quran verses, each verses shall be applied according its context.
And to understand the context you have to know about abrogation
as Surah 2:106 clearly says that it would bring about better or similar ayat and the older one would be forgotten.However please be reminded that Islam is a religion without priest in our beliefs every moslem is equal in front of God and has full rights to interpret Quran verses by their own.
If this is correct the why is their such a lethal overdose of clerics scholars, mullahs and imans,
And if every moslem is equal in front of God and has full rights to interpret Quran verses by their own, kindly explain to us why the Ahmadiyah, a splinter group of Islam is banned and persicuted for propagating their teachings
Osama bin Laden is one of them, according him in today world’s there is no more legitimate of the islam rulers and he took over those position and announced the Jihad War (application of Medina Verses) against the west or US.
You are grossly wrong with this claim, like most Muslims, Osama bin Laden seeks guidance from spirital leaders, and seeks justification from scholars as can be seen in this frightening document
But if you have enterpreneourship talent, God offered us a special deal
“whoever moslem are willing to make a deal or trade with God by sacrificing his wealth and his souls in order to elevate God Names and God Deens, God will exchange their sacrifice with Garden or Heaven.”A special deal such a the above deal for enterpreneourship talent, well this special deal just happens to be
Qur’an:9:111
“whoever moslem are willing to make a deal or trade with God by sacrificing his wealth and his souls in order to elevate God Names and God Deens, God will exchange their sacrifice with Garden or Heaven.”Hello any bells ringing, 9:11,1, a beautiful september morning, when 19 enteprising young Muslims boarded aircrafts and flew them into buildings, and killing nearly 3000 people.
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Sputjam.
Still no answer.
So tell me why Muslims cannot drink alcohol when you have the above verses saying it is okay
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Lock and Load for No Alcohol
Sputjam Says:
So tell me why Muslims cannot drink alcohol when you have the above verses saying it is okay
I cordially invite you to explain the context in which all the verses you have cited thereof presumably allowing alcohol intake for Muslims. The context would cover, among others, the story surrounding the verse, link with other verses and so forth.
Nevertheless, I will try to share my view with respect to the verse cited applying your free method of interpretation.
Surah 2:219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects.
The phrase “a great sin and some profit” does not necessarily suggest Muslim can drink wine or alcohol related drink for that matter. The Verse shows how these two acts have impacts for men, the two impacts can be bad or good. The Verse provides preference of not consuming alcohol by virtue of great sin and not of great profit. The choice is clear; great sin or some profit, you decide.
To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk
Surah 4:43:
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
Again, employing your free method of interpretation, I believe your assumption on the verse is far fetched to say that drinking is allowed in Islam. The Verse clearly stipulates that you cannot pray if you are drunk or until you can understand all that you say. Truly you cannot assume that drinking is allowed in Islam. Simple analogy: if the law says that you cannot drive until you have a license, obviously you cannot assume that driving is allowed for people who don’t have a license. And with respect to your presumed habitual practice of drinking wine in Islam, I am afraid I have to inform you that you have twisted the concept of Islam and culture.
To make the discussion more lively, again I cordially invite you to explain the context in which all the verses you have cited thereof presumably allowing alcohol intake for Muslims. The context would cover, among others, the story surrounding the verse, link with other verses and so forth.
Cheers
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The ban on alcohol in the quran is not as clear cut as swine meat. Jihahis are rewarded with heavenly virgins and river of wine, and no mention of roasted pork.
So Denny, is alcohol ‘haram’ or ‘partly haram’?
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Denny Crane Says:
Lock and Load for No Alcohol.
Sputjam Says:
So tell me why Muslims cannot drink alcohol when you have the above verses saying it is okay.
Next time you lock and load take care and look first.
The above question is from me to Sputjam.
If you had read the thread a little more carefully, then you would understand the context of the question and not jump to conclusions.
And with respect to your presumed habitual practice of drinking wine in Islam, I am afraid I have to inform you that you have twisted the concept of Islam and culture.
I know very well islams stance to alcohol and I believe my concept of islam is a sign of a healthy mind.
And I am using the above verses in an attempt to clarify how the rules of abrogation function which many mobots here fail to understand.
The consummuption of alcohol is allowed, and was also allowed by Allah until the ayah Abrogating Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine.
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, – of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Finally an ayah is revealed that considers drinking an abomination and to be avoided. Thus, this put an end to drinking being allowed in Islam.
So Sputjam there you have more proof that later verses overide earlier verses.
So to put things firmly into context, without abrogation Muslims would be allowed to drink alcohol.
Denny Crane look before you lock and load and read a bit more carefuly as to who wrote what.
You could end up shooting your own feet.
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Lock and Load for Shiva (this time is for you)
My email is for everyone including you for that matter.
First, I believe you cited the wrong verse. It should be 5:90 rather than 5:93 with respect to the ayah you refer to,
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, – of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Secondly, I have to disagree with your assumption,
The consummuption of alcohol is allowed, and was also allowed by Allah until the ayah Abrogating Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine.
I cordially invite you to elaborate or at least indicate a verse which suggests that the consumption of alcohol is allowed by Allah. Further, I have not found any valid argument of interpretation to suggest the existence of overriding verse in the Quran. My current premise is that there is no such thing as overriding or abrogation for that matter in the Quran, instead it is more to affirmation of the earlier verse. Nevertheless I would be more than happy to discuss my said premise thereof.
Cheers
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Denny Crane Says:
First, I believe you cited the wrong verse. It should be 5:90 rather than 5:93 with respect to the ayah you refer to.
Ooops.
My gaff.
5,93On those who believe and do deeds of righteousness there is no blame for what they ate (in the past), when they guard themselves from evil, and believe,
Denny Crane Says:
I cordially invite you to elaborate or at least indicate a verse which suggests that the consumption of alcohol is allowed by Allah.
There was no verse prior to 5,90 forbidding alcohol, therefore it was allowed.
If there are any earlier verses forbidding alcohol,, show us:
Further, I have not found any valid argument of interpretation to suggest the existence of overriding verse in the Quran. My current premise is that there is no such thing as overriding or abrogation for that matter in the Quran, instead it is more to affirmation of the earlier verse. Nevertheless I would be more than happy to discuss my said premise thereof.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm
Comment on “Heretic Outreach”.
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The day will come when ethnic violence and religious persecution no longer exist in Indonesia. I have heard this prayer from the mouth of Christian so many times, and I believe it. I believe God’s heart longs for all Indonesian people to live in peace. For no man to strike his neighbour for believing the “wrong” thing. No woman to make herself prostitute because of poverty. No child to have their innocense stolen.
Indonesia has reason to be proud. Her past has shown great strength of its people to stand togethor in unity. The beauty of its people shines through. However, this religious persecution is a new thing. Who have you let in to deceive you? Who have you let in to tell you that killing is the answer? Who do you listen to for blaming other people for the problems in Indonesia?
Stand strong. Don’t get caught up in symbolisms. You are all created by God and are unique. Find your identity in God. Don’t find your identity in symbols or other people. You are all loved by God. Love eachother and let your identity be characterised by the love you have for other Indonesians and guests who visit you.
Yours in Tuhan Yesus.
Daniel.