195 Comments on “Anti Islam Website”

1. Odinius says:

   July 8, 2009 at 9:36 pm

   ET said:

   – human judgement: sometimes flawed, sometimes right, maybe not perfect but at least something to go by;
   – divine judgement: promises, promises… and we are still waiting for the first concrete case to be solved.

   I never said I bought into it, just that it’s what those passages argue. According to Jesus, man is flawed and God is perfect.

   What sources? Those which try to conceal the elephant in the room?

   Those that approach the religion academically, rather than those that approach the study of religion with either an overtly evangelical or political agenda. There’s plenty out there. For basics, Huston Smith. For more detailed, Faizur Rahman or Khalid Duren.

   One would do well to read the Quran and related scripture and make up ones own mind by interpreting it in the light of historical and contemporal attitudes and events. Let the elephant speak for himself.

   Sure, but make sure you have both a good translation and an annotated copy. Just coming to realize how broad the mistranslations are–not only in the Quran, but in the Old and New Testaments as well. Often its not a case of being “wrong,” but choosing the wrong meaning for a word with several. So its good not to be too literal, but rather read the source and commentaries.

2. Astrajingga says:

   July 9, 2009 at 12:31 pm

   – divine judgement: promises, promises… and we are still waiting for the first concrete case to be solved.

   There’re many concrete cases had been solved. Sodom and Gomorrah, those gays and lesbians were punished severely, case closed. Disaster in pharaoh’s kingdom in Moses time, also when God directly helped Moses parting the Red Sea (for scientific proof, check what google earth captured about this). The jews are freed from the slavery, case closed. Christianity won’t exist without Jesus crucifixion, and God needs to create a recognizable unifying ‘logo’ for christianity. So God made Judas betraying his own beloved teacher for gold. Jesus crucified, christianity has the cross as their religion symbol, case closed. The ababil giant birds from hell destroying Abrahah’s elephants division who tried to destroy Ka’abah. Ka’abah is saved, so muslim has a place–though it’s so far from Java–to go for haj pilgrimage, case closed.

   The only problem is that after science rennaisance, God, seems to me, if not dead or sleeping, She’s less temperamental than She was in the old days.

3. David2 says:

   July 9, 2009 at 1:29 pm

   OK, Mohammed Kahfi, I’ve taken a few moments to dig into what I remembered regarding the matter of Muslims being allowed to deceive Infidels if it would advance their Islamic cause. (Apologies for this long post…)

   Before giving references, let me mention that ….

   (a) it is a clearly stated objective of Islamists that Islam should rule the world. Do you agree? If you disagree then you are engaging in the very deceit I have mentioned and further interaction is pointless. I’ll continue on the assumption that you agree.

   (b) it is very clear that the objective must be achieved by any means necessary. Do you agree? If you disagree then you are engaging in the very deceit I have mentioned and further interaction is pointless. I’ll continue on the assumption that you agree.

   (c) It is very clear that, in many places around the world that objective is being sought to be achieved by means of physical violence – which, when on a larger that one-on-one scale, is often referred to as ‘war’. In other words in many instances Islam is waging actual physical (violent) war in order to ultimately take control of the world. Do you agree? If you disagree then you are engaging in the very deceit I have mentioned and further interaction is pointless. I’ll continue on the assumption that you agree.

   (d) It is very clear that in some countries around the world, such as the USA, UK, China and Europe generally, outright and violent war cannot be the preferred modus operandi for Islam in order to achieve its objective. That’s because the excellent ability of the host nation to defend itself would quite easily eliminate those who tried to wage outright war. Which is why, in these instances, Islam seeks to conduct that (declared) “war” by surreptitious means: by deceiving the host nation into believing that it is ‘friendly’ and ‘peaceful’.

   In so doing, Islamists are most eloquently affirming the Prophet Mohammed’s words: (quote) “War is deceit.”

   OK, having made ethose points, I may stand VERY SLIGHTLY corrected in (simply and simplistically) saying that the Quran recommends that Islamists can deceive Infidels in order to advance Islam and I concede that point. Bear in mind, I was going by memory – and I do not claim to be an expert on Islam. But…….

   HOWEVER – and this is a huge BUT – the Prophet Mohammed DID state “War is Deceit” which has clear implications, given that we KNOW that Islam is waging ‘war’ (whether physical, psychological or cultural ) in order to gain control of the world.

   Therefore clearly, as part of its “war” on the non-Islam world, Islam IS engaged in ‘deceit’ if one accepts the Prophet’s words as stated.

   There’s more….

   Understanding and interpreting ‘The Tuqyah’ is complicated, but the facts appear very clear to those who view them independently of Islamic bias or a deceitful mind – especially since the Tuqyah has been so perfectly explained by highly-respected Ulema.

   They assert that the Tuqyah very clearly urges Islamists to (a) never be friends with unbelievers and (b) if necessary, deceive them. Sure, I simplifying it here, but those readers who want to better understand these assertions can do their own further internet research as well as read the following (for example):

   (note for those not well-versed in Islam/The Quran: Abu Ad-Darda was a close companion of Mohammed)

   http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021625.php
   The whole page is worth reading. Worth noting is “Raymond’s” post…(quote)
   ‘Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on Qur’an 3:28 is particularly worthy of note:
   “Allah said next, (Arabic script…..unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, ‘The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.’ ”

   “Raymond” then offers another useful link ( http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8052 ) and I recommend that those who are interested or still disagree that deceit is condoned, should read that page too.

   It’s not simply stated, but the essence of the matter is clear. In the light of (a) Islam’s publicly-declared ‘war,’ (b) the Tuqyah and (c) basic human nature, Westerners would be complete fools to not take it as fact that Islamists will lie and deceive in order to ‘win’ their (literal) war against the West.

   And Mohamed Khafi is, deceitfully, in the name of ‘free and open’ Western-style discourse, doing his individual best to further Islam’s bigger-picture, world-dominance aims.

   By the way, Mohamed, if you truly believe that by so doing, you’ll be earning yourself 70 virgins in heaven, well, friend, have I got a deal for you!! For just $500 (I prefer cash) you can buy from me six hundred acres of tropical beach-front property, complete with a luxurious villa, as many bikini-clad nubile young female servants as you want (white-skinned and blonde, if you like, nudge, nudge, wink, wink) – who will be willing to do …er…. anything you ask of them. Don’t you think that’s a brilliant deal for only $500?

   Well, just send me the $500 and it’s all yours!

   It is located in the middle of the Sahara desert, but hey, I’ll give you a map, so you’ll surely find it. Remember, I prefer cash….

   —————————————————————————

   I imagine that the above – and additional reading of the references – would satisfy any sensible-thinking person that what Islamists say to us ‘Kafirs’ is NOT to be trusted.

   Speaking of ‘sensible’ people, I want to close off with a little heads-up for anyone who believes Islam should rule the world and who happens to be diligently working towards that objective.

   Read and weep: YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME.

   It’s never gonna happen. Let me tell you why.

   1. Notwithstanding what The Prophet would have you believe, we so-called Kafirs and Infiidels are not quite as gullible, dumb and stupid as you might think.

   It is, to my great embarrassment, completely true that our Western Civilisation is (to me) frighteningly degenerated and debauched and yes, we certainly do have our fair share – perhaps more than our fair share – of fools and idiots. But Islamists make a huge mistake in thinking all the fools and idiots – including debauched Hollywood – “represent” Western Civilisation.

   All the lovely Western technology – yep, including Nikes and iPods – that Arabs also greatly enjoy (but never developed – what does that tell you?), were not developed by fools and idiots….(interpretation: be very afraid, pal!….)

   2. Islamists are, undeniably and clearly – and have been 1979 – waging war on the West, a war (remember “War is Deceit”) publicly declared by Ayatollah Khomeni.

   But, as I said, here is the Islamist problem. YOU WILL LOSE THAT WAR.

   For many reasons, only one of which is that not only are “Westerners” not quite the decadent, dumb fools that Arabs think they are, just maybe (generally speaking) they could be a helluva lot smarter than the Arabs (generally speaking) are.

   But there’s a more compelling reason to believe Islamists will LOSE.

   (Do your own research if you don’t believe the following)

   500 years ago Nostradamus accurately predicted

   1. the rise of Ayatollah Khomeni to power (Nos. said that, out of France into Persia will come the third anti-Christ and, to boot, it happened exactly within the time-frame that Nostradamus had stated).

   2. the three decades-long war that ensued.

   Nostradamus also predicted a third world war which, he said, WILL erupt in the Middle-East and lay that part of the world to complete waste.

   Read that again, friends…LAY IT TO COMPLETE WASTE.

   (Hmmm…..There’s gonna have to be a helluva lot of virgins X 70 for all the MILLIONS of nuked Mullahs and ‘martyrs’!)

   500 years ago Nostradamus did not have the term ‘nuclear’, but it’s clear that’s what he was talking about when he described the devastation that will be the MIddle East’s near future.

   And finally, 500 years ago Nostradamus predicted that (what he called) “Mohammed” will be destroyed – i.e. Islam will be wiped.

   I’m not going to argue these points with anyone. Take ’em, leave ’em or research ’em. Those who dismiss Nostradamus are free to do so – in their ignorance.

   They should not try and engage me in debate about him, because I refuse to waste my time debating with ignorants.

   But what I am going to ask everyone is this: is it or is it not BLATANTLY clear that the dictatorship of Iran….

   1. is as hastily as possible developing nuclear weapons?

   2. has VOWED to “erase” Israel off the face of the earth?

   If THAT is not ‘preparing for war’ then what on earth would be?

   “It is written” – which is why I’m not wasting any more time on this….

   And finally, when you close your posts, you may SAY “peace” as many times as you like Mohammed Khafi, but you would only be fooling the fools…….

   Adios…

4. ET says:

   July 9, 2009 at 1:34 pm

   You’re right Astrajingga. 🙂
   Why make things complicated with science if religion provides all the answers? Science requires us to use our brains which only makes us pusing. Case closed.

   @ Odinius

   Sure, but make sure you have both a good translation and an annotated copy. Just coming to realize how broad the mistranslations are–not only in the Quran, but in the Old and New Testaments as well.

   So I guess Bin Laden and his suicide squads all have the wrong copy.

5. David2 says:

   July 9, 2009 at 1:50 pm

   Astrajingga – you might want to take note of the mention of Nuclear War in my previous post – and then re-think the question of “God” being “less tempremental” nowadays. Maybe “HE” is just on a coffee break, and in the meanwhile giving the Islamists a lot of slack rope – so they can finally hang themselves properly.

6. Mohammed Khafi says:

   July 9, 2009 at 5:45 pm

   David,

   Lets make it simple for everybody.

   I asked you where it says in Quran that Muslims are allowed to lie, your reply hidden within a smoke screen like post was:

   I may stand VERY SLIGHTLY corrected in (simply and simplistically) saying that the Quran recommends that Islamists can deceive Infidels in order to advance Islam and I concede that point. Bear in mind, I was going by memory – and I do not claim to be an expert on Islam.

   You are not slightly corrected my friend, what you said was simply untrue.

   You certainly have a lot of hatred towards Islam for somebody who states:

   and I do not claim to be an expert on Islam

   For somebody who admits to not being an expert on Islam, you certainly are very opinionated and full of hatred for something you do not understand.

   You are in fact no better than the haters within Islam who have been deceived by the lies and fabrications contained in the Sunnah and Hadith literature, and do not have the intelligence to read, learn and form their own opinions.

   You said:

   we so-called Kafirs and Infiidels are not quite as gullible, dumb and stupid as you might think.

   You are obviously trying your best to prove your own statement wrong, and succeeding I might add! Keep up the good work!

   Peace

7. Astrajingga says:

   July 9, 2009 at 7:29 pm

   Astrajingga – you might want to take note of the mention of Nuclear War in my previous post – and then re-think the question of “God” being “less tempremental” nowadays. Maybe “HE” is just on a coffee break,

   Yes, SHE is just on a coffee break, while reading Nostradamus, and trying to keep up with Nostradamus prophesy. When I mentioned you, She says, “Tell David2, his time is not as long as he thinks. I have prepared a warm place here.” I don’t know what it means, but I’m telling you anyway.

8. Odinius says:

   July 9, 2009 at 9:58 pm

   ET said:

   So I guess Bin Laden and his suicide squads all have the wrong copy.

   ET, think you’re engaging in a bit of a reducto ad hitlerum.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

   The point was that those who don’t read classical Arabic have to rely on translations. Thus the translator has a lot of power over the reader. This is similar to the power an imam has over a congregation that can only recitethe Quran.

   I have no idea how well Osama bin Laden can read classical Arabic. But having this skill–or possessing a good translation–is still no defense against making very crude and misguided interpretations of a text.

   In his quest to justify his hatred of something he does not understand, David here appears willing to completely ignore passages in the Bible such as “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” and “judge not.” Anti-pluralist Islamists are similarly willing to ignore the large number of passages where God declares that the Quran is simply one revelation among many, and that these other revelations are, well, also valid paths to salvation.

   e.g.

   “And argue not with the People of the Book unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say we believe in that which has been revealed to us and to you; and our God and your God is one and unto Him we submit” (29:46).

   “Some of the People of the Book are a nation upstanding: they recite the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and they hasten to do good works. They are in the ranks of the righteous.” (3:113-114)

   (the violent Islamists also forget this one: “And fight (struggle) in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.” (2:190))

   Sure there are passages that are also uncomfortable to liberals. The same goes for the Bible, which includes some disturbing episodes of God-ordained genocide. The problem with religious texts is that, if you try to do everything literally, you get a set of seemingly contradictory enjoinders. But in order to justify a radical interpretation, you really do have to cherry-pick egregiously.

9. David2 says:

   July 10, 2009 at 3:43 am

   Mohammed Khafi, the word ‘projection’ – in psychology – means that one is ‘projecting’ one’s own inner thoughts with an accusation. Your accusing me of ‘hating’ Islamists is pure projection. You brought the term into the discussion.

   Like those who FIRST use the word “racist” and other epithets and ad Hominems in attacking others, YOU have the problem of ‘hatred’ inside YOU.

   That’s why the word came into your mind in the first place.

   You can jump on me for mis-stating the matter of ‘deceit’ but you cannot hide the truth of the fact that Islamic ‘teachings’ teach exactly that. Hatred and all that goes with it.

   Including deceit.

   How deceitful is it to NOT wear a military uniform (so everybody can see the soldier) but instead dress up as a ‘normal’ and ‘peaceful’ citizen, then walk into a crowded marketplace and detonate the bomb strapped to your body?

   That’s the kind of thought process being taught to thousands of young and impressionable Islamist kids in Madrasses.

   Dare you deny it, Mohammed? Were you perhaps one of them? Or will your small and unknowing children be one of them?

   No, I don’t ‘hate’ Islam. Like most sane people, I just happen to not like the idea that Islam’s Quaran instructs its followers that they (you?) must, when they have power over me, give me one of only two options: either convert to Islam, whether I like it or not, or become a slave to Islamists.

   And, the Quaran instructs, if I don’t accept either of those, then I must be killed.

   Or are you going to now try and persuade everybody that the Quran does not instruct Islamic believers (like YOU?) to do EXACTLY that?

   Do you seriously expect us to not know that your Islamic intent is that you should ‘smile’ at us until you have deceived us sufficiently to take power over us and then implement that instruction?

   Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt, Mohammed…..

   You have displayed your ‘hatred’ of non-Islamists with your own words, Mo.

   In contrast, and ONLY because you ahve take this discussion to a highly personal level, I don’t ‘hate’ Islamists, I actually pity them…..

   1. because the majority have been brainwashed into a belief system that is most blatantly not conducive to social wellness. (see below re Islam is trouble EVERYWHERE)

   2. because the VAST majority of Islamists living in Islamic-ruled nations don’t have the wonderful social stability and wellness that the great majority of Westerners (Christians) do have (and are let to believe it’s OUR fault! Well, the Japanese don’t blame us for their problems, or the Fijians, or the Chinese, or the ..etc. etc.. – no, ONLY the Islamists do. Think about it!)

   3. because so many desperately try and get to the West so that they can partake of the safety, stability and wellness that was created by – read and weep, Mo – CHRISTIAN teachings, NOT Islamic teachings.

   4. because they can’t understand that ideas have consequences and that it has, for 1500 or more years been the IDEA of Islam that has had the unhappy consequence of their living mostly deprived, unhappy, suppressed and unsafe, subjugated lives (except of course for the few ‘religious leaders’, who live well here on earth and don’t seem to embrace the idea that they must wait until the hereafter to actually get their reward!).

   5. because most of them are so dumb that, the moment they arrive in Western societies and start enjoying the benefits and freedoms of the Western ways, they immediately start ABUSING the freedoms by trying to CHANGE those Western ways into Islamic ways, the very thing that caused them to get AWAY from the Islamic country where they lived. Now THAT kind of stupidity brings new meaning to biting the hand that feeds you!

   5. and I pity them because not only have they been LOSING out on a good, safe lifestyle for more than 1500 years, they continue to cling to that LOSER of a social system – refer my previous post re the coming Nuke war and who are the people will unhappily get what they are so damn determinedly asking for.

   NOWHERE in the world where Islam manifests and is promoted is there social peace and stability.

   Islamists cause TROUBLE, wherever they are, Urumqui being merely the latest example.

   Where do you read of an American, a Brit, a Frenchman or a Dane blowing up or killing dozens of innocent people in the name of their ‘culture’ or ‘religion’ or ‘way of life’ (whatever the hell you want to describe Islam as)? Where do you hear of people peacefully doing their shopping or riding on a bus or flying in an aeroplane – or schoolgirls walking from school – and being brutally killed by anyone other than an Islamist in the name if his/her ‘God’?

   You’d HAVE to be nuts – or brainwashed – to embrace, believe and follow Islamic teachings in the belief that it will bring social wellness, when in FACT it has NEVER brough social wellness.

   Oops, I forgot, Islam doesn’t promise social wellness in the here and now, does it? No instead it promises something that CANNOT be proved exists (70 virgins and all that…blah, blah that only real suckers would ever believe).

   Even in their “homeland” (Iran) there is nothing but relentless TROUBLE, killings, stonings, unrest etc. etc. ad anuseum. Why else do so many Iranians FLEE and try and find the peace and safety that is offered in Western societies?

   Get a grip Mo – take a long, unbiased look at what you are trying to promote and WAKE UP. Western Civilisation clearly has some serious flaws that need fixing – and they will yet be – but on its worst day Christianity gives people what Islam can NEVER provide (or did you miss my point about all – OH, OK, 99% then – of the things that have brought human wellness, from medicine to strong, comfortable shoes, and everything in, between, has come to human beings from where? The West or Islam?)

   If you can’t or don’t want to re-think your provably destructive beliefs, Mohammed, then at the very least leave use Westerners alone and go kill and stone your own defenceless women and children.

   Because, pal, I have news for you. We are NEVER going to convert to Islam, we are NEVER going to be your slave and we ain’t exactly going to just lie down and quietly let you slit our throats either! We do have guns you know. We do have other weapons, you know. And we do have the smarts to outsmart you any day of the week. Sure, you can ‘take on’ our defenceless women and children and hide behind the skirts of your own defenceless women and children – and you do – but you and I both know that when it comes around to the time of the Main Game, you are gonna lose BIG TIME!

   Or have you forgotton what happened to Saddam’s magnificent army on the road home from Kuwait? Come to think of it, have you forgotten what happened to Saddam?

   Like Saddam, Mohammed, be very careful about asking for what Islam keeps asking for….

   And THIS time it’s seriously adios.

10. David2 says:

    July 10, 2009 at 6:39 am

    Astrajingga. thanks for the message from “God.”

    Oh yeah, and thanks (not!) for straying so far off topic as to prove to all that you live in a nutty little world all of your own. “Hotline to psychics” is, I suspect, an entirely different web address.

    Perhaps you could let the Great Deity know that I’m starting to suspect that, after all, He/She/It may well be a “she”.

    After all, who…er…what….. else but a female would be so bitchy, irresponsible, nasty and just plain idiotic as to tell a complete stranger – and over the internet, mind you – that (quote) “his time is not as long as he thinks.”

    Just so you know, “time” is a human invention and there isn’t a person on this planet who does not think they will/should/would have more time thant they actually have.

    Therefore your ‘message from God’ has no rational meaning at the metaphysical level. Methinks your “God’ is actually an evil little devil playing games in the vast expanse of emptiness that constitutes your mind.

    The very fact that you would seek to pass on such a supposed ‘message from God‘ – and ignoring your unbelievable arrogance – is clear evidence that you are a charlatan.

    Or, if you will a ‘false prophet’, masquerading as a so-called “God’s messenger.”

    And to top it all, you use a picture of Che Guevara – a proven, murderous killer and torturer of thopusands of people – to represent who you are.

    Wow, I am so impressed that I have now descended into speechlessness…..

11. David2 says:

    July 10, 2009 at 7:04 am

    Odinus,

    I do feel compelled to make a brief response to your gratuitous backhand at me in your note to E.T.

    To begin with, read my earlier comment to M.Kafi about ‘hate’ and remember that YOU too FIRST used the word.

    Second, in your supposedly learned references to the Judeo-Christian Bible, you conveniently omit to point out that the ‘God-Ordained’ practices of the Jews was something that

    a) Happened thousands of years ago when life was, for the most part, a kind of “kill or be killed or enslaved ” existance. In relative terms, those ‘God-ordained” acts of violence and even genocide at that time were no worse than what was going on around the globe at that time.
    b) Jews – and especially Christians – no longer subscribe to, having ‘upgraded’ their religious and moral principles over the past few hundred years, something that Islam, stuck in the year 700, still hasn’t done.

    As for the “something I don’t understand” comment – with no accompanying validation, I might add, well, I commend your brilliance at being able to so exactly know what I do and don’t understand.

    But to set the record straight, even my apparently simplistic mind could “understand” what it meant when a certain group of people flew two aeroplanes into a tall building in New York, all the while shoulting – like the insane maniacs they were – Allah Akbar!

    The likes of you and Mohamed Kafi can speak all you like, but this person “understands” properly that one should listen less to what people say and watch more carefully what they actually do.

    And finally, Odinus, go find – if you can – yourself a copy of Velivosky’s “Worlds In Collision” and read it.

    Then – just maybe – you yourself might better “understand” that, just maybe, your level of “understanding” might be even less than that which you assert is mine.

    Does not that “beam in your own eye” wisdom that you so pseud-learnedly quotes a few posts ago apply to you?

    “Before God we are all equally wise – and equally foolish” – Albert Einstein

    To which I must add that some, Odinus, are just more equal than others….

12. diego says:

    July 10, 2009 at 7:30 am

    Jews – and especially Christians – no longer subscribe to, having ‘upgraded’ their religious and moral principles over the past few hundred years, something that Islam, stuck in the year 700, still hasn’t done.

    But jews and arabs still believe in those (semitic) mumbo-jumbos that is torah and quran, that says “jews are chosen people and non-jews are sub-humans” and “we hold the key to heaven and jews are apes”, respectively. That’s why they’re _still_ killing each other and (unfortunately, and this has got to stop) dragging the whole world into their mess.

    LOL.

    We, east asians, don’t (or should I say, shouldn’t) give a sh!t to those bullsh!ts.

    Peace…, and LOL.

13. Odinius says:

    July 10, 2009 at 8:03 am

    David2…I assume you are the same person as “David?” Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why you decided to add the numeral “2” to your handle? I’m sure it’s fascinating.

    Now, the fact is that in the several hundred works you’ve written here, you have yet to demonstrate that you have read the Quran or possess even a basic understanding of Muslim theology. Instead, you make a lot of judgements as if you possess that basic understanding, yet to any and all who have actually spent time looking at the theology–in all its diversity–you are, simply put, giving us a heap of omong kosong.

    As for:

    a) Happened thousands of years ago when life was, for the most part, a kind of “kill or be killed or enslaved ” existance. In relative terms, those ‘God-ordained” acts of violence and even genocide at that time were no worse than what was going on around the globe at that time.

    b) Jews – and especially Christians – no longer subscribe to, having ‘upgraded’ their religious and moral principles over the past few hundred years, something that Islam, stuck in the year 700, still hasn’t done.

    So your logic is:

    “Christians are better than Muslims because our religious teachings say wonderful things, and theirs say horrible things. And if ours does, at times, say horrible things, that’s okay, because we’ve learned not to follow some of the stuff in there. But I’m going to pass judgement on all of them, because I simply refuse to consider that, perhaps, many of them have learned not to follow some of the stuff in there, because I read somewhere or I heard from someone that they’re just all meanies.”

    Sound about right? Please try to respond more concisely this time: Patung may have bandwidth limitations. 🙂

    But in all seriousness, religions are kinda what you make of them. They all tell you to be good members of society. At times they tell you to be loving, compassionate and tolerant–a good example is Exodus, which enjoinders Jews to learn from the experience of captivity in Egypt and be kind and hospitable to non-Jews living amongst them. At others, they tell you that it’s okay to be violent, even indiscriminately so–a good example is this passage from Numbers:

    Moses, Eleazer the priest, and all the chieftains of the community came out to meet them outside the camp. Moses became angry with the commanders of the army, the officers of thousands and the officers of hundreds, who had come back from the military campaign. Moses said to them, “You have spared every female! Yet they are the very ones who, at the bidding of Balaam, induced the Israelites to trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, so that the Lord’s community was struck by the plague. Now, therefore, slay every male among the children, and slay also every young woman who has known a man carnally; but spare every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man.” Numbers 31:13-18

    This isn’t to denigrate Judaism or Christianity, but to point out that all religions are contradictory when it comes to violence and need to be interpreted, rather than read literally. Islam is exactly the same as its “People of the Book” counterparts in this regard.

14. Odinius says:

    July 10, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Oh, and one more thing, David. You said:

    Like most sane people, I just happen to not like the idea that Islam’s Quaran instructs its followers that they (you?) must, when they have power over me, give me one of only two options: either convert to Islam, whether I like it or not, or become a slave to Islamists.

    The Quran says both this:

    If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

    Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. 109:1-6

    …and this…

    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    One set nice, one not-so-nice. Just like the examples above from the Old Testament. Or others I could add, such as:

    Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.” Leviticus 25:44-46

    These religious texts kind of defy easy categorization, don’t they? 😉

15. Odinius says:

    July 10, 2009 at 11:15 am

    Radical Islam: the belief that the violent passages trump the peaceful ones
    Liberal Islam: the belief that the violent passages were historically contingent and the peaceful ones transcendent.

16. David2 says:

    July 10, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Odinus,

    Against the constraints of my time, I am responding – yes. briefly, although in brevity lies the danger of misconstruction – as happened with me when I succinctly and hurredly referred to the matter of Islamic ‘deceit’.

    You said: “But in all seriousness, religions are kinda what you make of them. They all tell you to be good members of society.”

    Actually, religions are merely tools for (or the means of) managing any given society. Religion is a “system of belief” and by inculcating a common ssystem (culture) one has developed a social management system.

    Perhaps this will help people understand why I say that we are ALL brainwashed as children – into the culture into which we happened to be born. The trick is to, as you grow up, take a hard and honest look at your beliefs and determine whjether they are ‘good’ and rational.

    Most people CANNOT do that…..

    Some social management systems have proved to be ordinary and not much good, some were very bad – like the one employed by the Xhosas in the 1800’s, whereby they ‘believed‘. they should destroy all their crops and their “God” would reward their obedience by destroying all their enemies.

    Bad idea. They starved like flies…

    Some social management systems are better than others – but the word ‘better’ is a relative term – i.e. by what standard?

    Well, the only rational standard is human wellness, freedom and progress.

    And by that standard, Christianity fomented – note the past tense – a human wellness. freedom and progress (think moon landings and warm, safe homes – or cool, safe homes, depending on where you live) such as the world had never before seen. The USA is of course the primary example.

    I said “past tense” because the forces of anti-Christianity and anti-decency have done a great job of abusing the freedoms that Christianity provided Which is why we most probably will yet see a collapse of Western Civilisation. (Don’t cheer, Islamists, your future – ask Nostradamus – is a whole lot worse!)

    Therefore Christianity – no ‘theory’ here – PROVED itself to be the best social-management system the world has seen. But, as we can all see – what with the half-naked women prancing down our streets and the rampant ‘free’ smut and pornography that swamps us – Christianity had flawed loopholes through which the barbarians have…er….gaily…..stampeded.

    Buddhism, by the way, so often touted as ‘the gentle and ultimate answer’ is a seriously-flawed social management system, because it fails to recognise that there are – and always will be – idiots in the world who want to enslave others. And Buddhists – non-violently not believing in any powerful self-defence mechanisms – are almost literally walking around with a big sign saying, “I am defenseless, so you can safely rape my women, kill my children and enslave me!”

    Ask the Tibetans about being suppressed…..

    Where does Islam sit on the scale of producing human wellness, etc? Uh-oh…it’s a no-brainer… Look how Islam tried to kill (literally) free speech recently in Iran.

    Gee, if it wasn;t for that WESTERN (AKA CHRISTIAN) technology, they would have easily succeeded without the world knowing the evil they do TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

    Now THAT’S a self-destructive social-management system if ever I saw one.

    Is Christianity “the best”? Actually I personally don’t think so – bearing in mind the abovementioned loopholes. There’s much in other social-management systems (including Islam and Budhism) that (given human nature) make rational sense and which I think we ALL should ascribe to.

    But if someone stole something, I’d not cut his hand off. That’s pretty dumb actually.

    Instead I’d put him in a military-style boot camp (NOT prison) and, with disciplined hard work, teach him to (or MAKE him, depending on how ‘tough’ he thinks he is) become a sufficiently productive of society so that he doesn’t need to and wouldn’t want to steal…)

    Oh yeah, and I’d find a way to persuade Western women to (generally) stop being such immoral bitches and start being decent and dressing decently, etc. Maybe a few weeks of scrubbing kitchen floors with a toothbrush would work wonders at waking them up to themselves…

    Forgive me, these are just a few examples from my flights of fancy. See, I’m a dreamer that socially-speaking, things actually could be better…

    But until we humans get smart enough to put aside our entrenched and often mindless beliefs about “our” system being the best, and develop a standard and EFFECTIVE social-management system that ALL can ascribe to (drawing on the best aspects of ALL sources of knowledge on these matters), well I guess Christianity is gonna remain the PROVABLE best of a bad bunch.

    The thing that concerns me about your approach Odinus is that it is either moral relativism or very darn close to it. Smart social managers (in this instance this includes both those who developed Islam and Christianity) know that, given the human propensity of falling down the ‘slippery slope’ there must not, as a matter of dealing with the reality of human nature, be ‘grey areas.’

    You appear to love grey areas Odinus. It was via ‘grey areas’ that the anti-Christ forces got formerly-decent people to step onto the slippery slope that has now taken so many of us Westerners downward into a festering cauldron of porn, smut and barbarism.

    In this principle, Islam and John Calvin enjoyed a shared perspective. Rigid lines in the sand – and don;t even think about smudging them. You may have noticed in my writing that I kinda go along with that. Now you know why.

    Which is also why your approach, Odinus, has to be relegated to one of the ‘not the best’ kind of social-management methods. It opens the door and when a door opens even just the teeniest …er…..crack, you can betcha some moron is gonna push it further.

17. David2 says:

    July 10, 2009 at 11:35 am

    And, Odinus, vis-a-vis radical Islam versus Liberal Islam….

    The problem is that the ‘radicals’ (if they can be separated as a distinct group – which I doubt, see ‘deceit’ above) have all the power and guns etc.

    Therefore, it’s all very well claiming to be a ‘moderate’ and ‘peace-loving’ Islamist but, as we just saw AGAIN in Iran, when the ‘radicals’ tell the ‘moderates’ to jump, those moderates are either jumping like hell or they are dead.

    I’m sure there are ‘Moderate’ islamists. I’m also sure their existence has no value to improving the current situation only because the ‘radicals’ have proved that the ONLY WAY to stop their relentless agression is to actually kill them.

    And the ‘moderate’ Islamists are surely not going to do that.

    Actually, why don’t I ever see ‘moderate’ Islamists marching down the street in protest at the activities of ‘radical’ Islam?

    Hmmm… could it be that old…don’t listen to them SAYING they are ‘moderates’, instead watch what they DON’T DO but WOULD if they were sincere and wanted the violence to stop?

    And once again, the unhappy question of “who is deceiving whom” arises……….

18. timdog says:

    July 10, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    david, number one, two, or whichever personality you are currently inhabiting –

    I try to make a point of not engaging with the likes of you. It can be passingly amusing, but ultimately is as futile (as perhaps Odinius now realises) as starting a debate with those people who stand on street corners shouting about judgement day – or indeed with bearded folks who believe that grave veneration and music are “the wrong kind of Islam…”

    I could, and am perhaps tempted to, point out how you are channelling a paranoid 1500-year-old “Western” discourse on the “threat” of “Islam” so perfectly as to be almost a parody, shouting out the ancient mantras in which scholarly translations of the Koran are subtitled “Law of Mahamad the pseudo-prophet” and “A refutation of the Koran” (really, this is how the first two European translations were published), in which “Mahound” is both a popular bogeyman for scaring the children, and the object of genuine, religiously-inspired frantic paranoid agitation in the courts and churches of Europe, in which the same “Mahound” is placed firmly in the Eighth Circle of Hell amongst, not the heathens, but the schismatics (which really tells you everything you need to know about the genesis of early “Christian” ideas about “Islam”). I could indeed also expand this to point out how marvelously textbook an example you are of a standardised negative response to the Other….
    However, it would all go soaring over your head.

    There is something fundamentally mastabatory about people like you, with your hours of sweaty-palmed trawling amongst similar onanists on “jihadwatch” and your little pornographic collection of cut-and-paste “information” about “Islam” borrowed from other “authoratative” commentators on jihadwatch and its ilk, men (almost always) with usernames along the lines of “Sword_of_truth” (Freud anyone?). (The very same goes, incidentally, for the rockin-and-howlin Islamists, particularly those born and brought up in “the West”)… Anyway, it’s generally just best to leave you alone to jack yourself into a stupour…

    And when you started going on about Nostradamus, well, that should have been the point when everyone walked away sniggering…

    However, one point of order picked from the general torrent:

    Urumqui being merely the latest example.

    …which proves how very little you know. Recenct events in Urumqi have nothing to do with Islamism, I can assure you (I’ve spent time in Xinjiang, I’ve been to Urumqi, which, I have reasonable confidence, means I know about a million times more about the situation than you – hell, before monday I’d actually heard of Urumqi!) and everything to do with ethnicity.
    Amongst the “foreigners” who recieve the ire of the Uighers are the Hui, ethnically Chinese Muslims (Islam is, incidentally, a very significant presence in China, not only in Xinjiang). They do not distinguish between non-Muslim Han and Hui; all are foreigners whose presence in “their country” they resent. (Interesting, last year cuddly, cute Buddhists with their pretty pictures and quaint pearls of silly wisdom also rampaged and attacked Han and Hui “foreigners”)…

    Anyway, just wanted to point that out. The very real complaints and aspirations of people like the Uighers are so often lost and invalidated by the loud clamour of outsiders – both Islamists on one side usurping their situation and deciding that it’s part of a “global” issue, and the oppressors (in this case the Chinese) doing the very same thing on the other side (al Qaeda did it!!!!!! So we can kill ’em all, right?).
    So shut up.

19. Odinius says:

    July 10, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    Timdog:

    Could not have possibly said it any better. 🙂

    Because of that, I think i’ll change the topic a bit. Reading the news, I’ve felt that the Urumqi situation is very much an “ethnic” grievance, but one that carries the danger of morphing into a religious conflict. Looking at recent Indonesian history, I tend to think that both W Kalimantan and Ambon fit this description in a lot of ways, though neither is a precise analogue to Urumqi. But in those two cases, one became thoroughly “ethnic” (in large part because the main perpetrators of violence wanted it to) and the other “religious,” which led to its escalation beyond local actors. Is this a danger in Urumqi? Is “religious” even more dangerous than “ethnic” in China, as it is in Indonesia? Or is it more like Yugoslavia, where “ethnic” is more dangerous than “religious?” Is there even any religious dimension at all, or is it simply rhetoric on the part of the Chinese government? Your thoughts?

20. BrotherMouzone says:

    July 10, 2009 at 11:36 pm

    @David/David2/Other Future Davids

    Actually, why don’t I ever see ‘moderate’ Islamists marching down the street in protest at the activities of ‘radical’ Islam?

    Maybe you just don’t have many Islamists living in your trailer-park?

    As I recall; there were protests and vigils by Muslims after the London bombings and the Bali bombs.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3183498.stm

    Muslims protested in Mumbai about the acts of terror;

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdeye/3071528506/

    British muslims protested after the bombs in London;

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4684885.stm

    The simple fact is that most Muslims condemn such barbaric acts. To judge all Muslims by the words and actions of a psychopathic minority would be as facile as to judge all Christians by the words of …. erm …. someone like you.

21. diego says:

    July 11, 2009 at 12:37 am

    I agree with Timdog…, my conclusion: “islamists are usurpers”. They happily jump in into incidents like in Xinjiang, and declare “they’re waging a war on us… muslims unite!”. Yeah, right.

22. Odinius says:

    July 11, 2009 at 12:48 am

    Some tried to do that in Central Kalimantan and failed miserably. The ethnic cleansing was bad enough without the religious crazies jumping in. Feel bad for the Madurese, of course, since no one stood up for them. But always love it when the religious crazies fail.

23. David2 says:

    July 11, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Gentlemen, and others,

    I bow to your quite obviously superior intellects and insights.
    Timdog, I’ll ignore your insults (trailerpark etc…) and suggest that your arrogance re Nostradamus merely, as I predicted, displays your ignorance.

    Ditto re the ‘ethnic’ comments concerning the problems in Urumqui.

    Italians are (generally) of Southern-European/Latin/swarthier ethnicity. The Brits are generally (but how things are rapidly changing!) Caucasian/Northern/fair-skinned.

    But their differences are NOT cultural – they are different ethniticies.

    The difference between Italians is not cultural, since they both (generally) subscribe to the same fundamental cultural principles – based on Christianiity.

    The Urunqui’s are Muslim. That’s a CULTURAL difference….

    But, given the level of perception I am encountering, I now choose to permanently bow out of this clearly pointless discourse.

24. timdog says:

    July 11, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Bye bye David!
    Incidentally, you appear not to have read my post re. Xinjiang. The people of Xinjiang (generally known as Uighers, not, ahem, “Urunqui’s” – love the rogue apostrophe, stigmata of the illiterate) are of a radically different ethnicity to the Han Chinese. They are Turkic people, ethnically closer to Turks, Turkmen, Uzbeks, Kyrghiz and Kazakhs than to Han Chinese. Hui (Chinese Muslims) for the most part share an ethnicity – and a language – with the non-Muslim Han. As in Tibet, the Uighers resent the presence of the Hui immigrants every bit as much as the Han (who they simply consider as all “Chinese”). And, when the “Han” marched through Urumqi wielding meat cleavers and chanting “down with the Uighers”, amongst their numbers were MUSLIM – but crucially also CHINESE – Hui… And one more thing, “culture” and “religion” are not necessarily the same thing. You, my friend, are a very silly boy…

    Odinius, China is unique, in its own horrible way, and the situation in Xinjiang (referred to by Uighers as Eastern Turkestan) is not analogous to anywhere outside the country. There is only one place where the situation is comparable – and it’s comparable in virtually every way, in the historical context, the complaints, and the outlooks of all parties concerned. That place is Tibet.
    At present I think it can be said with reasonable confidence that “Islam” is purely incidental in the Xinjiang situation, as a component part of Uigher identity (but much less so than being linguistically and ethnically Turkic, which in turn is probably less important than simply being non-Chinese).
    The idea that “Islam” is at most a side-issue is abundantly demonstrated by the fact that the Hui find themselves on the “Chinese” side of the conflict, marching with the Han, (don’t forget, the Tibetans have historically shared at least some religious common ground with the Chinese – doesn’t make their complaints any less bitter)…

    There is, of course, the chance for the conflict to become Islamised, like so many other conflicts that happen to involve Muslims. Uigher identity is actually a very new construct. The name is taken from one of the early Turkic tribes that swept into Xinjiang before the arrival of Islam. However, its modern application to the people of Xinjiang only dates from the mid-20th Century. Prior to that people were identified “culturally” to a much smaller area – the city-oasis from which they hailed. People were firstly Kashgaris, Yarkandis, Hotanliks etc. If they had a wider “ethnic” and “cultural” identity it was as Turkis, but a man from Kashgar would have identified as closely with a man from Uzbekistan as with a man from Turfan (even though both are Uighers today)…
    The fact that “Uigher” identity is very new, one would think, would give space for “Islam” to achieve dominance as the cultural factor, however, this doesn’t seem to have happened. I think the helpful existence of very large numbers of “Chinese” Hui Muslims – who are very distinctly culturally, ethnically and linguistically different from the Uighers – in the vicinity (the long-established “Chinese” population in neighbouring Gansu and Qinghai are significantly Muslim) is the key factor in keeping Islam on the far sidelines of the Uigher aspirations and identity.

    Secondly, Xinjiang’s Muslims are far more isolated from the rest of the “Muslim world” than virtually any other Muslim population – including Indonesia’s. This is, it must be said, mostly due to Chinese control of the state. There are certainly no madrassas in Xinjiang, children are banned from mosques, no one is allowed to study religion abroad, no one can make Hajj except on very tightly controlled state tours. Uighers do turn up from time to time in “terrorist training camps” in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and in other regional conflict zones (Afghanistan, Chechnya etc). However, such is the nature of state control in Xinjiang that once they’ve gone, they don’t have much chance of coming back.
    The “Islamising” of a conflict requires a definite connection with the outside world. A very good example is Kashmir. The Islamising of the Kashmir issue was the deliberate project of Pakistan’s state apparatus – and concurrently by the “foreign fighters” who went there to “help”. As an illustrative anecdote, a Kashmiri guesthouse owner told me that in the early days of the insurgency in the late 80s when the fighters were all Kashmiri, tourists still came to his village; he had photos of foreign tourists playing cricket (!) with Kalashnikov-toting (local) rebels. It was only several years later when bearded foreigners started slipping in from Pakistan and screaming at the villagers for not going to mosque that these things changed…
    Because of Xinjiang’s effective isolation, there is very limited chance of this kind of active “input” from outside – either by individuals or by states or organisations.

    Also, the cultural impact of “Islam” is relatively light in Xinjiang. It has never been a particularly conservative place. In the 1860s and 70s the region was independent under a man called Yaqub Beg. Like most of the rebel leaders there in the 18th and 19th centuries he was not a local, but an Uzbek from Andijan in Uzbekistan. He captured the entire area that now comprises Xinjiang and for about fifteen years kept the Chinese out. He was a religious bigot, banned alcohol, enforced the veiling of women, and mandatory prayer (all, apparently, alien to Xinjiang).
    According to reports by Indian Muslim and Afghan agents sent there by the British, the stability wrought by Yaqub Beg was appreciated by the locals, but the “Islamic” aspect of his rule was bitterly resented.
    Interesting, a century and a half later a lax sort of Islam endures there. Of various places I have visited during Ramadan, Xinjiang is that where I saw least observance of the fast, or rather most blatant disregarding of it!
    And, it must be said, uncomfortable as it is, the severe Chinese suppression of religion has probably helped to keep things that way…

    Anyway, what I’m saying in all this digressive rambling, is that for four specific reasons – isolation, the nature of Islam in Xinjiang, the fundamentally ethnic nature of the conflict, and the presence and roll of the Hui in the situation – Xinjiang will probably prove the most resistant conflict involving Muslims to being “Islamised”, either from within or without. Doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen, but unlikely.

25. ET says:

    July 11, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    David2 said

    5. because most of them are so dumb that, the moment they arrive in Western societies and start enjoying the benefits and freedoms of the Western ways, they immediately start ABUSING the freedoms by trying to CHANGE those Western ways into Islamic ways, the very thing that caused them to get AWAY from the Islamic country where they lived. Now THAT kind of stupidity brings new meaning to biting the hand that feeds you!

    Which is exactly what is happening in Europe right now and to which reactions are
    building up, from public statements of president Sarkozy in France and from recent European elections winner Geert Wilders in Holland to street protests in Germany and bans on religious symbols in Belgium. The public and provocative wearing of burqa and similar islamist attire also in schools is becoming a cristalization point for bottled-up tensions.

    Provocation is a powerful tool to induce hate. I wonder what Mohammed Khafi has to say about that.

26. Odinius says:

    July 11, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    David2 said:

    But their differences are NOT cultural – they are different ethniticies.

    Think you might need to pick up a basic primer on culture and ethnicity.

27. diego says:

    July 12, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Islamization of Xinjiang conflict… it doesn’t take long (and sooo predictable):

    http://www.detiknews.com/read/2009/07/12/103055/1163379/10/pks-kutuk-pembantaian-muslim-di-xin-jiang-china

    😀

28. diego says:

    July 12, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Kami mengutuk setiap pembantaian terhadap muslim dan etnis lain di Xin Jiang, China, di mana
    memakan korban meninggal lebih dari 150 orang,” ujar Tifatul dalam rilisnya yang diterima detikcom, Minggu (12/7/2009).

    Since when “muslim” is an ethnic? Oh ya, right, I forgot… it _is_ an ethnic….saudi arabia.

29. Cukurungan says:

    July 13, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Because, pal, I have news for you. We are NEVER going to convert to Islam, we are NEVER going to be your slave and we ain’t exactly going to just lie down and quietly let you slit our throats either! We do have guns you know. We do have other weapons, you know. And we do have the smarts to outsmart you any day of the week. Sure, you can ‘take on’ our defenceless women and children and hide behind the skirts of your own defenceless women and children – and you do – but you and I both know that when it comes around to the time of the Main Game, you are gonna lose BIG TIME!

    Dudes, why do you think we have any spare time to think about your welfare, I tell you that we Muslim are so busy with our own business, we have many wives to be seduced and we have so many children to be take care, for sure, we will not waste our priceless resource to convert the powerless and unknown people like you …but do not worry …there is still good new for you …we will install a Muslim President for you ASAP

    Dudes, I am just wondering if your kind is so smarts as your claim why your kind are enslaving your self to serve the Arabic Sheikh. Why Kaffir’s like you have been working so hard to build car, IPOD and plane ut you still have to pay jizaa and tribute to the Arabic Sheikhs.

    Do no tell us about your GUN because it is just bulls**t, it is hard to believe if you have a good Gun why you could not eliminate few hundreed Al-qaeda and Taleban even already more than 5 year you have been waging war on them

30. diego says:

    July 15, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Nice pic of my fellow (?) countrymen (man? looks like pinches putos maricones jototes to me)

    

    http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/dunia/china-bakal-jadi-target-para-jihadis.htm