Shia Islam

Apr 22nd, 2007, in News, by

Pressure on Shia Islamic groups in Indonesia is growing.

On 10th April in Sampang, Madura island, East Java, the home of a Shiite cleric was attacked by a mob of more than 100 people. The attackers carried sharp weapons and attempted to enter the cleric’s home but were prevented from doing so by police. No-one was hurt. metrotv

Still in East Java, but on the mainland, on 20th April thousands of people in the town of Bangil, near Pasuruan, marched to the office of the Attorney General’s department demanding the banning of organisations which promote Shia Islam in Indonesia.

The protestors, marching under the banner of a group called “Pemuda Ahlussunah Bangil”, or Bangil Sunnah Followers Youth, had previously gathered in the town square after Friday prayers, and then went about the town putting up banners condemning Shia Islam. On their passage through the town the marchers menacingly passed by the offices and homes of organisations and people thought to be most responsible for spreading Shia Islam in the Bangil area.

The leader of the protestors, Habib Umas Assegaf, said Shia Islam was heretical and responsible for such outrageous teachings and practises as contractual marriage. He said if Shia organisations were not banned he would bring even more people out onto the streets in future.

Asis Widarto of the Attorney General’s office in Bangil met with representatives of the mob and said his department would take into consideration the concerns of the protestors. He asked the Pemuda Ahlussunah Bangil to provide the Attorney General with evidence that Shia Islam was indeed heretical and thereafter such material would be studied by the comically named “Tim Pakem” (Pengawas Aliran Kepercayaan Masyarakat, Overseers of the Peoples’ Beliefs), this august body being composed of policemen, state lawyers, and members of the National Unity Board (Badan Kesatuan Bangsa (Bakesbang)). antara

Hasyim Muzadi of the Nahdlatul Ulama travelled to Bangil on 22nd April to attempt to calm the situation. He met with dozens of senior clerics in the town and attempted to explain the history of various Islamic sects, starting with Khawariji Islam, and moving onto the Shia.

Hasyim asked NU people in Bangil and Pasuruan to be rational, the differences between Sunni and Shia could not be solved by fighting. What was worse the NU was currently seeking to solve the Sunni vs Shia conflict in Iraq and the actions of NU members in Bangil were not helping. jawapos

The leader of the NU’s youth group in Bangil, GP Ansor, Mr Fahrur Rozi, also spoke out on the matter. He hoped that Ansor members were not involved in the anti-Shia demonstrations. “Gus” Fahrur said the PAKEM (Pengawasan Aliran Kepercayaan Masyarakat) was authorised to decide whether a certain belief was heretical or not.

Meanwhile Zainal Suwari, the local head of Banser, another NU youth group, said none of his members were involved in the demo. jawapos

On a later occasion, on 29th April, Hasyim Muzadi advised Shiite Muslims in Indonesia not to say bad things about any of the prophet Muhammad’s companions, like Abu Bakar, Umar bin Khatab and Usman, nor any of the early sheikhs, like Sheikh Abdul Qadir Djaelani, Imam Bukhori and Imam Muslim. If they did it would upset the feelings of NU members, he said.

He also said that efforts to divide Sunni and Shia Muslims in Indonesia were part of a wider international plot to weaken Islam, as was to be seen in Iraq and Palestine. tempo


150 Comments on “Shia Islam”

  1. timdog says:

    Pseudo – just two sticky computer keys away from “pedo”… snigger… pedo-Muslims and pedo-Australians… snigger snigger…

    Perhaps, AAB, you ought to talk about “nominal” Muslims rather than pseudo-Muslims…

  2. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    LOL

    Most Indonesian Moslem actually think they are Moslem. By ‘pseudo’, I mean ‘fake’ moslem. I prefer using this term as it infuriated the Arabs, and other Bule converts trying to teach us Real Islam.

  3. Faiq Doole says:

    I’m a descendant of Exiled Prince of West Java .He was exiled to Ceylon By the Dutch and under the British He Changed his Identity and didn’t return to Java. I’m doing a research on Hwo Convert Hindu Indonesia In to Islam (specially West Java ) Is that Sufi’s , Iranian Mystics or Yemani Syyids( descendant of 4th Imam in Shia Islam) , please try to provide some Authentic reference for my research and I shall be thankful if you all respond to my humble request.Best of Luck! Wassalaam!

    Rdgs

    Faiq Doole
    ( Sri Lanka)

  4. timdog says:

    Faiq, get any history book on Indonesia, this topic will be covered.
    “A History of Modern Indonesia” by Ricklefs is probably the most well-known introduction; Indonesia – peoples and Histories by Taylor is a more recent book – a nice one. There are many more, but you’ll find your questions answered in the above two.
    It’s too complicated to go into in detail here, but I wrote some stuff about it on this thread: https://www.indonesiamatters.com/1697/syncretism-example/.

    “Sufi” is a fairly meaningless term; I’ve not come across any mention of Iranian conections in Indonesia, and though there is a modern Yemeni-origin Arab community, and there are claims of Yemeni origin for some of the early Muslim pioneers in Indonesia it is likely that more important were Indian, Cham and Chinese Muslims…

  5. Hossain says:

    Salamalikum,

    I find the debate has deviated from the main point and the whole argument is lost.

    Wassalam

  6. Zahrah says:

    Dear Mr. Wrong
    If shia believes in Imam Ali’s being the first successor of the prophet Mohammad S. It’s because it is proved in sunni books. Go to Tabari Tefsir of Qoran under the ayah ????? ????? ??? ?????….. He says this ayeh was sent to prophet S. on Hajjat al veda’ and it is indicating Qadir-e khom. You tell us, is the prophet, who left Medina once and bothered himself to appoint someone (Imam Ali) in his place for only one day, that neglecting to leave the Umma forever without any successor. One of the sunni references I got was that. The other reference is the “Saqalayn” hedith that all sunni scientists confess it is a “motavater” hadith which means it is absolutely correct, and in that hedith prophet puts his ahlol bayt and Qoran in one place and declares “after me these are your guides” while umar and abubakr were only Sahabi not ahlolbayt [ according to “dorolmanthor by Soyuti, who is a sunni writer, under the ayeh ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ? ?????? ??????, the ahlolbayte are Imam ali, Fatima (prophet’s daughter, Hossain, and Hassan (ali and fatima’s sons), if you believe in your own hediths, of course!). In kasravi we have this hadith from prophet that “after me there would be 12 successors all of whom are from Qoraysh, and earth will never be empty of Hujjat (=khalifah) after me”. If you just have a better look to shia’s believes you may admit that it is shiism holding that firmly indicated number of successors. Now, what about you? Different sunni groups with different believes and still not able to grant that correct number (of course you must at first believe that prophet’s words were from God, he was innocent, and God has said in holy Qoran “if he says anything other than what I say, I will cut his vessel of life”. We followed God and Prophet PBUH but you followed those ones who were after power and waited until Prophet died, to take the right of ruling the Islam territory, but they never knew this is not the matter of power rather the matter of God. Jewish people disagreed with Jesus Christ, they crossed him (according to Christianity), or at least betrayed him, but no Jud ever says why his followers are Christian, although he had claimed that he is continuing Muses’ path, they don’t say we WERE the majority so we were right, we know and everybody knows that those Jewish who killed Jesus did wrong and they were doing something against what God had said and Moses himself had predicted before. This was the answer of your first problem with shia believes. I can still give you some more sunni references and hediths if you wish let me know. We don’t disapprove of you if you leave us alone. Leave us alone with our believes, don’t kill our youth in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, so that we don’t start challenging you. You for yourself and we for ours. LEAVE US FREE IN OUR BELIEVES.

  7. Zahrah says:

    sorry friends those 2 ayes that are not shown are in Arabic font the eglish translation of them is
    1. today I completed your religioun and chosee Islam as your religion, obey God, and his prophet and his sucessor.
    2. God wants to cleanse you, ahlol bayt from any filth and uncleanness and make you pure and the purest.

  8. Mohammed Khafi says:

    @Zarah

    The first verse actually translated says:

    Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal), and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall, and that killed by goring with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten — except what you slaughter; and that which is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols), and that you seek to divide by arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. But whoever is compelled by hunger, not including wilfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, merciful. 5:3

    Doesn’t appear to say anything about following any successor to me.

    The second verse translated reads:
    And stay in your houses and display not your beauty like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to take away uncleanness from you, O people of the household, and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. 33:33

    But just who were the “people of the houshold”? The previous verse tells us:
    O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah, then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech. 33:32

    Simply the wifes of The Prophet, doesn’t mention anybody else at all does it?

    Peace

  9. Zahrah says:

    dear khafi
    are you sure you got the aya I meant? the first Ayeh is in Maeda and the second In Ahzab surahs. the Arabic in English font is “alyam akmaltolakom dinokom, va atmato lakom neemati…”, and “ya ayaohallazina amanu oti’ollah va otio’rrasul va ollelamre menkom…” and the second is “Enamma yoridollah leyozheba ankomorejsa ahlolbayt va yotahherokom tathira”
    The first translation you’ve mentioned was terribly rediculous. where did you firnd that. was it, in any sence, relateds to the translation I gave. and the second you mentioned does not involve anything such as being pure or somethin. In fact Im Iranian and my original language is persion. reading Arabic is pretttey easy and undrstandablr\e to me. but I out to fing the english translation of the verses or give you the number of ayas because you find what you want to and you see what you wish to, even if it is againt the truth

  10. Zahrah says:

    by the way you are not deserved and valid to give your own interpretations over Korans ayas (as tabari says in his bookand you know he is sunni) and again in Tabari’s TaaFSIR YOU OUGHT TO LOOK TO FIND WHAT IS UNDER THIS AYE. he says it is for the day qadir and “olelamre menkom” is refering to Alienbne Abitalib A. and his being chosen as the prophet’s successor at Qadir on Hajjatolveda’.

  11. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Dear Zahrah,

    Yes I am quite sure I have the correct verses, and the correct translation into English.

    Al-Maidah ( The Table (Spread)) 5:3

    al-Ahzab -( The Clans, The Coalition, The Combined Forces, The Allies ) 33:32

    The links above will take you to the original Arabic, transliterated Arabic, literal translation in to English and over ten different English translations.

    Zahrah said:

    The first translation you’ve mentioned was terribly rediculous. where did you firnd that. was it, in any sence, relateds to the translation I gave. and the second you mentioned does not involve anything such as being pure or somethin. In fact Im Iranian and my original language is persion. reading Arabic is pretttey easy and undrstandablr\e to me. but I out to fing the english translation of the verses or give you the number of ayas because you find what you want to and you see what you wish to, even if it is againt the truth

    Allah said:

    No, We cast with the truth upon the falsehood, so it disrupts it, and then it retreats. And woe to you for what you have described. 21:18

    Zarah said:

    by the way you are not deserved and valid to give your own interpretations over Korans ayas (as tabari says in his bookand you know he is sunni) and again in Tabari’s TaaFSIR YOU OUGHT TO LOOK TO FIND WHAT IS UNDER THIS AYE.

    As to having to rely on others for interpreting Al Quran Allah said:

    And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? 54:17

    He is the One Who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are decisive they are the foundation of the Book – while others are allegorical. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief follow the allegorical part to mislead others and to give it their own interpretation, seeking for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. Those who are well grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; it is all from our Lord.” None will take heed except the people of understanding. 3:7

    Allah seems to be telling us that searching for hidden meaning is a sign of disbelief, what does this tell us about Tabari?

    Peace

  12. Zahrah says:

    Dar Khafi, all ayehs of quran have got a Zaher =face and a Baten=meaning. Tabiri under the aya of ta’vil says, only God knows the Ta’wil of them. Tafsir and Ta’vil are not understood by the surface of the ayas but it needs careful interpretation by an expert. as you know both shia and sunni scientists believe in mutashabehat and muhkamat. muhkamat are those with a clear surface and mutashabehat are those with a surface and a not clear meaning underneath. the first aye was what you said but the historical occasion is important. you ought to gio to history books I said it was given to prophetSAWW. at Qadir occasion. it is not writen in quran but tabari says it is so. any way the other ayeh is maeda:55-56 which directly indicates the need for prohet’s successor

  13. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Sister Zahrah you said:

    Dar Khafi, all ayehs of quran have got a Zaher =face and a Baten=meaning. Tabiri under the aya of ta’vil says, only God knows the Ta’wil of them. Tafsir and Ta’vil are not understood by the surface of the ayas but it needs careful interpretation by an expert.

    Allah says in Al Quran:
    He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

    Zahrah further said:

    as you know both shia and sunni scientists believe in mutashabehat and muhkamat. muhkamat are those with a clear surface and mutashabehat are those with a surface and a not clear meaning underneath.

    Exactly the reason that both Sunni and Shia, are deviants from the path of God. Allah clearly states that only He understands the meaning of the unclear verses. Yet, as the scholars have proven over the years they are those described by Allah as being “perverse”: as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.

    Zahrah said:

    the first aye was what you said but the historical occasion is important. you ought to gio to history books I said it was given to prophetSAWW. at Qadir occasion. it is not writen in quran but tabari says it is so.

    So Tabari becomes a source of divine revelation now does he? A partner with God? Don’t you think it strange that in that same verse Allah says:

    This day have I perfected your deen for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

    Allah says that His deen is complete but you beleive that it needs Tabari to add to it!

    Zahrah said:

    any way the other ayeh is maeda:55-56 which directly indicates the need for prohet’s successor

    Al Quran reads:
    Verily, your Walee (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, – those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).
    And whosoever takes Allah, His Messenger, and those who have believed, as Protectors, then the party of Allah will be the victorious.
    5:55-56

    Sorry Zahrah, still can’t see any direct mention of following The Prophets family in Allah’s complete, perfect and fully detailed Quran.

    Or do we need Tabari to Perfect Allah’s words once again?

    From Al Quran:

    And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these– and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit. 16:89

    Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
    The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
    6:114-5

    These are the Messages of Allah We convey to you with Truth. Then, in what HADITH, if not in Allah and His Verses, will they believe? 45:6

    Peace

  14. Zahrah says:

    The problem is that
    1. you think you understand everything from qoran by yourself
    2. You are neglecting the allegorical ayahs only because you don’t have the knowledge, and you don’t want gain the knowledge.
    3. You think by “allegorical” God means “unexplainable”, hence; don’t believe in any explanation from either sunni or Shia experts or scientists.
    4. If you leave the allegorical ayas and stick to only decisive, while by doing so you absolutely neglect a large part of qoran and indirectly declare their being unnecessary. This is like while umar invade Iran to introduce Islam, but he face large libraries of ancient Iran and reasoned as” these books are either for, or against quran. If they’re against qoran they’re kufr, and if they’re for qoran their existence is unnecessary, so we destroy them.” This is not logical.
    5. ANYONE CAN GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF TAFSIR, because ther are a lot of quotations from Prophet SAWW. that we can put side by side of qoran and understand those allegorical ones and get use of them. Under this subject I need to mention again the “saqalain” hadith which is a Motavater hadith. This hadith has been narrated by 2 great sunni narrators (relator of traditions):

    a. Muslem in his “sehah” quotes from “zayd ibn Arqam”:” one day prophet SAWW addressed a sermon beside a water called “Khom” near Mecca and Medina, and in that sermon praised God, and advised people, then he said: “” lo. People, I’m not but a human being, and it is the time that agent of God came and I respond to his invitation, and I leave 2 precious great thing with you; one God’s book which is guidance and light in it, grasp God’s book _and prophet SAWW. emphasized on practicing it then he said:_ and my Ahlolbayt, for God’s sakce I remind you my ahlolbayt, and he continued this sentence 3 times.
    ? Ref. Muslem, Sahih, vol. 4, p. 1803, No. 2408, Abdolbaqi publication.
    ?Ref # 2. Darami, Sonan, vol.2, pp. 431-432

    b. TARMAZI narrates this text by using the expression “va etrati ahlebayti” and the text is this: I leave 2 things among you as trust, as long as you resort to it, you wont get misled; one is greater than the other one: God’s book which is the hanging blessing cord of God from sky to earth, and the other My ahlolbayt and Etrat, and these 2 never get seprated until they join me at pool. Look how you react my trusts.
    ? Ref. Termazi, Sonan, vol.5, p. 663, No. 37788

    So if you only believe in God and Prophet Mohammad SAWW.(only thses 2) you ought to use qoran along with Ahlolbayt. Your interpretation of Ahlolbayt might be different from other people, but whatever it is you must have one, because this is what prophet SAWW. Himself does and orders you to do.

  15. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Zahra,

    Either you believe that the Word of God, Al Quran, is complete, perfect, and fully detailed, or not! It matters not at all to me what you believe The Prophet said or did in manmade writing. The example of The Prophet I follow is what is shown by Allah in Al Quran.

    You unfortunately are a classic example of somebody who has deviated away from Allahs Words, you confirm this by using Hadith to support your beliefs rather than Al Quran.

    Is it any wonder that The Prophet himself will say:

    And the messenger said: “My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.” 25:30

    Fear Allah Zahrah, not your scholars.

  16. Zahrah says:

    Mr. Khafi

    ok. I understood that you don’t believe in prophet Saww. because you are taking qoran. but still it’s very strange to me how somebody may claim that he believes in God, the God that MOhammad SAWW. introduced and still do not believe in prophet himself, or do not want to listen to him. Qoran is compelete and as the qoran itself says, needing interpretations in some part(allegorical ones). so you may not really understand some parts at all, and you need someone to clarify it for you. you tell me if those ayas are not clear(allegorical ones) and cannot be interpreted by anyone what’s the usage of them? Nothing, sinply nothing. and God is Aadel and Hakim which means he will not do anything useless. there must have been treason. the reason is that to know the real followers of the prophet SAWW. as a Ma’sum (innocent, saint) sent from God who listen to him, and those who are not reall followers of him. I do not fear my scolars at all. some people may say Iranian leaders are like God to them, but I dont leave a dam to Khomeini and Khameneii. God and Prophet is importan. I have searched in my Deen and got to this conclusion that Qoran itself is not enough. forexample we have the 3 kinds of hands in qoran
    1. Mohareb (war)
    2. Tayamom (ablution on soil)
    3. Burglar
    but there is no sign or indication in any other place in the qoran to show where each one of these parts start and where it finishes. so in punishing a burglar you may cut the hand from the shoulder, elbow, wrist, or only the four fingers. I don’t know about you, but without any hadith or sth from someone credited (prophet SAWW. or as credited as him), Im sure I will get confused perplexed. and Im not that much connected to God to get the true guides from Himself. and I cannot cheat myself only to avoid “Prophet SAWW.’s welayat”. I always say to my friends:
    cheat the ones that care about you alot, your parents.
    cheat the ones that are always there for you, your true friends.
    cheat the one who is the only true lover of you, God;
    BUT DO NOT CHEAT YOURSELF. because those who cheat others are only STUPID, but those who cheat themselves are MISERABLES.

  17. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Zahrah,

    You said:

    Qoran is compelete and as the qoran itself says, needing interpretations in some part(allegorical ones). so you may not really understand some parts at all, and you need someone to clarify it for you. you tell me if those ayas are not clear(allegorical ones) and cannot be interpreted by anyone what’s the usage of them? Nothing, sinply nothing.

    Allah does not say that the verses need interpreting, He clearly says that only He Understands their meaning, please read the verse:

    He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. 3:7

    You said:

    you tell me if those ayas are not clear(allegorical ones) and cannot be interpreted by anyone what’s the usage of them? Nothing, sinply nothing

    The usage for those verses is clearly stated by Allah, it is to identify those people in whose hearts is perversity (deviation from the truth is the literal translation from Arabic!)

    As you so correctly said:

    God is Aadel and Hakim which means he will not do anything useless. there must have been (t)reason. the reason is that to know the real followers of the prophet SAWW.

    The real followers of The Prophet rely on the description of him in Allah’s book, not Sunnah or Hadith, Allah has promised to protect the message of Al Quran, nowhere does he promise to protect Sunnah and Hadith, they are manmade and as such are open to corruption and fabrication.

    Peace Sister

  18. Pakmantri says:

    To me it is very simple.
    There is a message and a messenger which one is more important?

    The answer should be the message, i.e. The Qur’an. Therefore, it should take precedent over anything else.

    If we imitate/do anything that the messenger did, Sunnah and Hadith, does not that mean we idolize the messenger? Which is clearly prohibited in the Qur’an.

    Studying Sunnah and Hadith is good but it should not take precedent over the Quran.

    God gave us intelligence and conscience to guide us in understanding God’s messages, so use them. All we have to do is open our heart and be receptive.

    Salam.

  19. Zahrah says:

    Dear Pakmantri;

    here the problem is not message or the messenger. it is not one contradicting the other which makes us chose one. it is the matter of underlying meanings, guidances, clarifyings, and such things. Mr. Khafi insists on Holy qoran being enough, while it is enough for him and not me (I have explained above why). he can have his way and I my. it seems that he is interpreting my words while Im still aloive and do not need anybody interpreting them but I myself, but still his way is respected as his (tabari says nobody knows the ta’vil of ayat as God says in his Qoran, then he says “my ta’vil of this ayeh is…” at the same time he deny his own word. ha ha) anyway lets not get that much diverted from the main point. the main point is that do we have the permission to kill each other because one is contradicting the other? who gives this permission to one person, group, or sect to slaughter the other? Shia, sunni, salafi, wahhabi, or whatever else, we are now here, living in this world, and history shows killing does not help solving the problem, nor reducing the number of one sect’s followers. better to wait until the judgment day. I say “live and let live”. Criticism “yes”, controversy “yes”, but no invasion or such thing.

  20. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Sister Zahrah,

    What is it about the verse quoted above that makes it so difficult to understand?

    Allah says His book is complete, perfect, and fully detailed. He says that some verses only He knows the meaning and that those who follow the unclear verses have perversity or unbelief in their hearts.

    I absolutely uphold your right to choose, Allah tells us that there is no compulsion in religion. But I would not be doing my duty to Allah, if I didn’t at least try and point out his clear and meaningful message to you.

    I would never dream of forcing you to accept my views, true faith can only come from the heart after Allah has placed it there, never by force or compulsion:

    “Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” 16:125

    I wish you well on your journey, may Allah guide you and light your path.

    Peace

  21. Zahrah says:

    Mr.khafi
    you said:

    “I absolutely uphold your right to choose, Allah tells us that there is no compulsion in religion. But I would not be doing my duty to Allah, if I didn’t at least try and point out his clear and meaningful message to you.”

    then leave me a lone in my kind of leaving. our problem in Muslim society is exactly what we are doing. I take up logic, you take up Qur’an. To me messanger is as important as the message.

    then you continued as:
    “I would never dream of forcing you to accept my views, true faith can only come from the heart after Allah has placed it there, never by force or compulsion”
    Maybe my heart is not as open as you. I told you. I need a leader because I’m afraid of getting lost. do not try then just let’s go back to our first topic “acceptance of other sects”.
    thanks
    Zahrah

  22. Pakmantri says:

    Dear Zahrah,

    The main point is that do we have the permission to kill each other because one is contradicting the other?

    My answer is definite NO! We can argue or debate until steam come out from the top of our head or slap each other silly (just kidding ….. 😀 ), but kill each other NO!

    Who gives this permission to one person, group, or sect to slaughter the other?

    I believe they are some of the respected leaders, scholars, imams, or priests of each group/sect. Who used their interpretation of the Messages (their holy books) to suit their need.

    Because I am sure God did not give the permission. Neither did I nor mas Khafi …… 🙂

    Salam.

  23. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Sister Zahrah,

    You will find none more supportive of freedom of choice, than those who take their guidance from Allah in Al Quran.

    You said you take up logic, but you cannot see that the only logical solution to the problems in the Ummah are to remove the sects and become one, that can only be achieved by returning to the core of belief and rejecting that which has caused the divisions within the Muslim deen.

    Allah tells us in Al Quran that the deen we should follow is the deen of Nabi Ibrahim, not Sunni or Shia, nor Talmudic Judaeism, or New Testament Christianity.

    As I said in another thread:

    Allah all through Al Quran wishes us to return to and practice Pristine Islam, it is called The Deen of Nabi Ibrahim!

    “Muhammad, as for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you have no part in them in the least. Their affair is with God. He will inform them of the truth of all that they did.” 6:159

    “Muhammad, say: ‘Truly, my lord, my superior has guided me to a way that is upstanding. It is an established and upright custom and culture; the religion of Abraham, one rightly inclined while he had no one around him of like mind.’ ” 6:161

    “Muhammad, say: ‘God is true. Follow the religion of Abraham. He was rightly inclined while he had no one around him of like mind.’ ” 3:95

    “Strive for God as He deserves to be strived for. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulty on you concerning custom. Follow the religion of your forefather and founder, Abraham! He has mentioned you, being the submissive ones earlier in this (compilation). Let the messenger and the message testify for you, and you testify for humanity! Keep to prayer, compliments, dignified speech, oratory, discipline & blessings, being promotions of good and well-being. Do what is best, vindicating and virtuous. Hold onto God. He is your support; the best of support and the best to help!” 22:78

    But they will say, “Become Jews or Christians to be guided.” Muhammad, say, “No. The religion of Abraham! He was rightly inclined while he had no one around him of like mind.” 2:135

    Those who will turn away from the religion of Abraham will only make fools of themselves. We have distinguished him in the earthly realm. In the very end he will surely be in the company of the righteous, the correct.”</em 2:130

    The Deen of Nabi Ibrahim was given to us before the corruption of Talmud, New Testament, and Hadith, none of those things are needed to follow it. Once we reject those corrupt lies and fabrications, we all return to True Islam. Jew, Christian, Muslim, ALL will be the same. No more use of God to justify wars, terrorism, subdjugation of women or supression of the ordinary people.

    Truly this, your community, is to be one, indivisble community . . But people have belittled this command. They belong to separate factions, and each party rejoices in that which it alone has. “ 23:52-53

    Peace

  24. Zahrah says:

    Mr. khafi,
    You have your choice and I mine. I’m not gonna on your way neither do I like to be with you on your way. You see the world that way. I gave my proof from Qur’an that you cannot explain some parts and get confused but it seems that you prefer to ignore it. so have it your way. But LEAVE ME ALONE IN MY WORLD. I cannot look at the world and religion through your glasses, I have my own logic and beliefs and I’m happy with them. The more you try to convince me the more you waste your time. I get confused (according the proof I presented) in this huge world of Qur’an. I need someone to guide me. This toddler needs someone to lean on and who is better than prophet SAWW. And the ones whom he approves. Brother Khafi I don’t listen to music, I don’t watch dirty movies, I don’t drink alcohol, you know why? Because they give me stress. I have the opportunity to have them, any one has, but I don’t like to do sth that make me stressed. When you tell me Qur’an is enough I get stressed. You said only follow you heart ok I’m following it, it tells me follow prophet saw. And his successors who are approved by him. This is my heart. Your heart is different from mine. Cant you see that. I don’t want to come to your group, I don’t go to any group, name is not important my heart is and my heart is telling me “you need a guider, a leader”.
    Regards Zahrah

  25. Asad Ahmed says:

    Tauheed, Salat, Roza, Zakat, Hajj.
    Five pillars of religion whoever believed and follow is muslim?
    Why majority call themselves sunni and why minority call themselves shia?
    Kindly inform me!

  26. Mohammed Khafi says:

    The leader of the protestors, Habib Umas Assegaf, said Shia Islam was heretical and responsible for such outrageous teachings and practises as contractual marriage. He said if Shia organisations were not banned he would bring even more people out onto the streets in future.

    I assume that Habib Umas Assegaf doesn’t have any objections to trading off in marriage his 8 year old daughters for a bad debt though, which is the Saudi Sunni way apparently:

    In December, Saudi judge Sheikh Habib Abdallah al-Habib refused to annul the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man.

    The rest of the story can be found here: Top Saudi cleric: OK to wed young girls

    Do we really need the corruption of Sunni or Shia teachings, to practice Islam, when Allah says in Al Quran:

    ” Any who believe in God, the day of judgement and does good deeds has nothing to fear from God”

    How far the Clerics have strayed from Allah’s straight path! They cannot even see that muttah marriage and marriage to prepubescent girls are vile and disgusting, let alone the idea that it is acceptable to pay a debt with somebody elses life.

    They are filthy and disgusting and are all polluting the Deen of Islam.

    @Zahrah

    Sister, I am not suprised that you are confused! Read Al Quran with an open heart and let Allah be your guide and leader. If you genuinely wish for guidance Allah will place it in your heart.

    I pray that Allah will guide you with The Light of His Goodness.

    Peace

  27. Zahrah says:

    Mr khafi
    my open heart told me follow prophet saww. marrying 47 year old man to an 8 year old girl is not sth strange, becasue even in western countries we ave such thing. in my Interchange book for practicing English we had a 15 year old girl who wanted to marry a 40 year old guy. and maybe you are wrong. maybe you are on the wrong side. you come and follow my leaders. you come and follow prophet. Who brought that complete Qur’an God himself or Prophet saww.? everybody thinks he or she is right. so everybody thinks His/her sect is right. you can a make a unique sect, because this is peple’s beliefs. dont try hard you wont succeed. I love my sect and I think it is the correct one, while at the same time i respect the other sects and their beleivers. what you r after christian Protestant and Catholics were after but did’nt succeed in doing it. they shed a lot of blood but it didnt help.

  28. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Zahrah

    There must be some sort of sickness in your heart if you consider that trading an 8 years old girl in marriage to a man to pay a debt is not immoral, perhaps this sickness is the same as the one preventing you from accepting the word of Allah as sufficient for your needs.

    I for one will never rest as long as there are people like you whose morals and judgement are so twisted, and who seek justification for their views as coming from Allah.

    I only hope and pray that your husband never trades your 8 years old child to pay a debt.

    You said:

    what you r after christian Protestant and Catholics were after but did’nt succeed in doing it. they shed a lot of blood but it didnt help.

    What I am after is nothing to do with Christian Sects, I am struggling for the same thing that Allah sent Nabi Isa for, to return people to Allahs way, unfortuntely his teachings were corrupted by the writers of the Gospels, just as Nabi Mohammed’s message has been corrupted by the Islamic clergy.

    Your choice, Allahs word or mans word?

  29. Zahrah says:

    let’s believe that I choose man’s word, then what? will u come and slaughter me? do it then because Im not gonna back from my ideas, never ever even if I’m killled. I believe so deeply in Prophet and A3emme ma3sumin alayhemassalam so much that Im ready to exchange my life for their love. killlllllllll me, but you will never be able to change me. I love prophet saww. I love lady Fatima S. I love Imam Ali a. and Im proud of dying for such people’e love. dying without love does not mean to me at all. I ahve saved my life so that I can sascrifice myself for them one day. I dont feel you are eadying the important parts of my texts. you have not tolsd me anything about the 3 hands in qur’an I said. when you found their answers in qur’an and only in qur’an then I’ll change to what you said.
    I think that’s enough for roaming in it here. Im not gonna any other post by you unless you find my answer.
    goodbye then
    Zahrah

  30. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum sister Zahrah,

    I can assure you that brother Khafi will not entertain the thought of killing you because he is from the nusantara. Religion is secondary in the nusantara, unlike ME and the Indian subcontinent. I have repeatedly told brother Khafi that real moslem (be they Sunni or Shia) practised:

    1) Wife Swapping

    Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 63, Number 187:

    Narrated Aisha:

    A man divorced his wife, then she married another man who also divorced her. The Prophet was asked if she could legally marry the first husband. The Prophet replied, “No, she cannot marry the first husband unless the second husband has had sex with her.”

    2) Sex with animal

    A man can have sex with animals such as sheep¹s, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.
    From Khomeini’s book,

    “Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

    3) Sex with daughter-in-law

    33.37 “We gave her ( Zaid’s wife ) in marriage to thee, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching wives of their adopted sons”.

    4) Sex with pre-teen girl

    Prophet Mohammad at age 53 years married Aisha at age 6, then deflower her at age 9. The prophet is an examplary figure for all mankind; Islam is the only religion for all mankind. Sister Zahrah can confirm this to you.

    If anyone of you considered yourself a moslem and don’t follow through with those described above, Allah swt will punish you just as He had sent tsunami to the people of the nusantara for not being true enough moslem.

    @ Mas Khafi

    Leave sister Zahrah alone. You are exposed as a pseudo-moslem. May Allah guide you to the right path.

    Salam.

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