Islam and Chinese
Mar 8th, 2007, in News, by PatungThe distance between Indonesian Chinese people and Islam.
Julia Suryakusuma wrote in the Jakarta Post recently:
The Chinese in Indonesia are usually Buddhist, Christian or Confucian. In fact, the actual number of Muslim Chinese is not known, but there are not many.
And then:
The Religious Affairs Ministry has in the past made strenuous efforts to squelch academic research on the Chinese contribution to Islam in Indonesia. This is because for most Indonesians the link seems intuitively absurd and improbable: “Chineseness” and “Islam” are assumed to be totally paradoxical stereotypes or “identity concepts”.
Cheng Ho, 1371-1433.
She then notes that the role of the Chinese in spreading Islam in Indonesia was in fact considerable, and that it was a two-fold matter. First there were actual Chinese Muslims, such as the relatively famous mariner Admiral Cheng Ho, or Zheng He, who established Chinese Muslim (Hanafi) communities in Palembang, San Fa (West Kalimantan), and along the northern coast of Java, especially at Semarang. Secondly, and more indirectly, it was the Chinese who developed the ports, city life and supply networks that attracted Muslim (non-Chinese) traders to Indonesia, and this facilitated the spread of Islam by opening up the Indonesian states to Islamic trading, and then missionary, networks.
What’s more, as John Sidel in Riots, Pogroms, Jihad says, the first waves of Chinese migrants to Indonesia in the 15th & 16th century soon assimilated into Indonesian society, (Cheng Ho was one who specifically encouraged this), and as with the Baba Chinese of Malaya, Chinese mestizos in the Philippines, and Sino-Thai lukjin in Siam, locally born Chinese in Indonesia soon took up most of the linguistic, cultural, and religious forms of the society where they found themselves.
Yet today few Chinese are Muslims, many still speak a dialect of Chinese, and many still maintain Chinese cultural traditions, and further, many are loathe to consider themselves Javanese or Sundanese, etc. Indonesian nationalists will be pleased to hear that the Dutch are to “blame” for this.
Old loyalties.
One feature of Dutch society which has often stood out, even to the Netherlands’ neighbours, was the strict separation in the past between the Catholic and Reformed communities. In many ways Catholics and Protestants in Holland inhabitated separate worlds, with their own schools, clubs, sporting teams, etc, the two worlds often barely meeting.
When the Dutch took control of the East Indies they tended to recreate the system they were familiar with in some respects, and their policies resulted in something like a caste or apartheid system developing in the colonies, not totally unlike what they were used to at home, says Sidel.
Chinese were barred from entry to the local aristocracy, (whereas in the past Javanese upper class men had often taken a Chinese wife), they were ghettoized, forced to live in particular areas of a town, their inter-city movement was restricted and regulated, they had special legal codes and administrative practices imposed on them, all different from that which applied to the “native” population.
These policies hardened ethnic boundaries, set up walls between the Chinese and Javanese, and largely prevented Chinese from assimilating and, for example, adopting the religion of the majority of the people, Islam.
Further, over time, as Dutch power grew and the Javanese aristocracy became ever more subjugated, the attractiveness for Chinese in assimilating declined, and the economic benefits of being a distinct, separate class, increased.
Towards the end of Dutch rule a new wave of immigrants, this time many non-Hokkien speakers, people who saw no great need to assimilate, and combined with the rise of Chinese nationalism, made the established trend for separateness stronger. Chinese associations were formed, schools, chambers of commerce, and the Dutch became much more accommodating.
After independence the policies of both the Sukarno and Suharto regimes tended to reinforce, often severely, the division between the ethnic groups. It is only recently, since the presidency of Gus Dur, that attempts have been made to break down the barriers built up over hundreds of years.
107 Comments on “Islam and Chinese”
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janma says:
Wandi…. i believe the term is Chinese….. it’s already plural so you don’t need the extra ‘s’ on the end…. no such thing as chineses!
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diego says:
“I lived in shanghai before for a year, I made friends with people there, etc”
Did you tell them you are indonesian?
He he. I really have to thank you here wendy, as your remark above really shows your character / tendency. I don’t live in hiding, unlike you maybe?
To answer your question: indeed, of course everybody especially in the company know I’m an indonesian. I always introduced myself as indonesian. And indeed my co-workers asked some question about that 1998. I infact took the time to find out the videos they’ve watched scaterred throughout the internet (many look bogus, with random shots from other countries). Just some balance check: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t23354.html.
Anyway, back to their question: I tried to give a balanced explanation based on my understanding of the history. I, in fact, acknowledged that it happened, although I doubt the scale (the videos look fishy to me). I tried giving my point of views about the social conflict, both sides should take the part of the blame. In the end I explained that things have improved since the era of Gusdur, etc. They seemed OK with what I told them.
That’s why I think it’s important TGPF works hard on this, finding hard facts, because in this situation it’s very easy for riders (like you?) to take advantage of the suffering of others for your benefit / agenda.
Now, listen, it’s very clear you are not particularly interested in the easing the friction. In fact, what you want seem to be quite the opposite. My advice is to shut up, and be a nicer person. There are more nice people (chi / pri) in indonesia learning to get along well in indonesia I believe. If you don’t want to join, that’s your choice, just stop bitching (it’s annoying, but we don’t care too much anyway).
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Mbak janma yth,
Would you like to defend the Indon-Chinese on behalf of Wandi? Wandi is too emotional to continue. He will embarrass the Chinese more with his illogical responses. I will be in England to join my wife and kids next wednesday, so plenty of spare times for now. 🙂
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dragonwall says:
Mbak Jangan kalah gertak.
Wandi
There are a number of them here in these blogs that is ever ready to ridicule you. They speak their heart for want to know what they want to hear or belief not in reality.
You should encourage those African Muslims to import more of their ethnicity into Indonesia. Later Indonesian will not only be “Arabisasi” like what she is facing now but “Africanisasi”.
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wandi says:
@janma,
Well, it seemed I made a mistake about the word chinese in plural. I think too much from the point of view of the dutch grammar mix with other languages, my bad. I didn’t know you took the word “chineses” so… rather than the topic we are having now.
@diego,
it isn’t listen since I can’t hear you from here. You should write: read well instead of listen.
“He he. I really have to thank you here wendy, as your remark above really shows your character / tendency. I don’t live in hiding, unlike you maybe?”
Which part of my previous comments made me look like a hider?
Btw, I bet only the video’s where pribumis don’t spit or hit chinese get your approval.ROFL, you called http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t23354.html balance? I read only bunch of teenagers comments.
Tell me Einstein what will I have to gain? Will I be millionaire by taking advantage of the suffering of my fellow chinese? LOL you should read my previous comments about what I want to see in the future. Maybe and maybe if you ask me nicely, I will tell you if its obviously too hard for you to reread my previous comments what my wish is.
“They seemed OK with what I told them”‘
Yep, it “seemed”
@ Aluang Anak Bayang,
“He will embarrass the Chinese more with his illogical responses.”
Let the chinese viewers decide that, shall we?
Btw what part of my comments are illogical responses? I think you write and think too big about yourself as usual. Maybe if you paid attention to my previous comments and let the words come into your brain, maybe you will understand the message instead of making up some facts.
If I were too emotional, I would use another kind of words. If you have any comments, just direct it to me.
Is here any muslim who can answer my previous question about the nigerian muslims? I will look like a fool when those nigerians will treat bad in indonesia. The fact is that blacks aren’t much welcome in asian countries like in china, south korea, taiwan, thailand and malaysia due the bad image they have by hollywood movies. May indonesia is the exception?
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wandi…. at this point in my IM career, the wrong spelling of Chineses is about as far as I’m willing to comment on this topic…. which I feel is useless plus I’ve already done all of that to no avail….. wasn’t picking on you either, or trying to make you seem ridiculous….. just thought you should know the proper word…. sorry if it seemed arrogant.
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@ janma,
No hard feelings
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Hola Wendy-nesio,
“He he. I really have to thank you here wendy, as your remark above really shows your character / tendency. I don’t live in hiding, unlike you maybe?”
Which part of my previous comments made me look like a hider?
The fact that you insinuated that I hid my nationality in front of zhongguoren actually reflected your state of mind, your tendency. That’s psychology 101.
ROFL, you called http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t23354.html balance? I read only bunch of teenagers comments.
Why do you have to show your stupidity with every new comment of yours? It’s boring and not funny anymore. It’s not the forum, it’s the news copied-and-pasted in the forum. Geesh.
Let me quote it for you:
Applicants were coached to tell authorities they had been beaten or raped by Muslims in Indonesia because they were ethnic Chinese or Christians. Their applications contained bogus accounts of abuse that were identical on multiple applications. “The stories of torture they fabricated were repeated word for word by immigrants who were coached to memorize them exactly,” said U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty.
So much for your “pogrom”.
Tell me Einstein what will I have to gain? Will I be millionaire by taking advantage of the suffering of my fellow chinese?
Or it can be trashing just for the sake of trashing, as (pathetic) way to entertain yourself and your bunch? That already counts as “advantage” (for bitters like you).
LOL you should read my previous comments about what I want to see in the future.
What you want to see in the future? Aren’t you the one who stated that you don’t want to have anything to do in Indonesia anymore (and yet you keep coming and trashing indonesia here)? Nothing positive about indonesia / indonesian people has ever came out of your noisehole. So….
Eh, good luck in Canada. I hope you wouldn’t face discrimination there (though I doubt it. Not that I’m saying Canadian are anti-chinese, though. It’s just you. Maybe the problem is you yourself and your “why do people hate me?” mindset).
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@diego,
“The fact that you insinuated that I hid my nationality in front of zhongguoren actually reflected your state of mind, your tendency. That’s psychology 101”
Kitchen psychology or real one?
I just gave my future vision to my fellow chinese indonesian nothing more or less. That’s what I meant when I wrote what I wished in the future.
There are different kind of discrimination everywhere in the world. It is just the way some race behave and act physical, looting burning and running amok. Don’t tell me you didn’t see the videos I have put here? Do you want me to put more?
Let me ask you 1 crucial question: when in the future indonesians natural resources are depleted and the country sink into poverty by corruption, bad management etc, are you going to risk your life and defend the poor chinese indonesians who are still stuck in indonesia since it is tradition in indonesia to blame the chinese for all bad things? Look at the rising of the muslim fundamentalists in indonesia (Atjeh conflict and Bali bombing). You can’t deny that muslim indonesians hate the chinese and in fact see them as infidel. Pls try to be honest.
“Or it can be trashing just for the sake of trashing, as (pathetic) way to entertain yourself and your bunch? That already counts as “advantage” (for bitters like you)
“Nothing positive about indonesia / indonesian people has ever came out of your noisehole. So….”
LOL, if I thought like that, don’t you think I already have cut the bound with some indonesians and only hang out with white and chinese? Don’t get me wrong, I do like some indonesians, but you must not deny the ugly dark side of the average pribumi especially their behavior towards the chinese indonesian. That is what I have been written all this time. It has never been about indonesian cuisine which is the best in my opinion or the beautiful flora and fauna which is also the best in the world.
“Or it can be trashing just for the sake of trashing, as (pathetic) way to entertain yourself and your bunch? That already counts as “advantage” (for bitters like you).”
Me bashing you? ROFL. What about you bashing me here? I thought I could get the chance to give you people my point of view.
On contrary what you think I am not bitter since i have closed my indonesian chapter. I just give people here what I want to see in the future with regard to the chinese indonesians.“Maybe the problem is you yourself and your “why do people hate me?”
Ahumm, may I correct you? People don’t hate me. I have too much social skill, experience and human knowledge. I am always direct, no hidden agenda. Take for instance my name. It is my real name. nothing to hide, and you? LOL, DIEGO?
The fact that many people like me, doesn’t mean I like them. True, loyal (future) friends are scarce. I prefer quality than quantity. Always has, always been. The odd think about you is that you always think you know about me. Pls don’t presume you know anything about my personality. I don’t intend to show any of my personality here. I just came here with 1 purpose.
Diego, you are really fanatic towards me. If I don’t know better I could swore I could smell your fear.
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@ Wandi
Non-Indon readers may buy your lies and I will be doing my own people a great disservice if I stayed silent. Our Javanese government had done their best to accommodate our Indon-chinese population. I will be flying off tonight and will be back in 2 weeks’ time so I will just briefly address one of your lies re Country A & B.
Chinese population in Melayu-ruled Country A & B Versus Javanese-ruled Indonesia.
What is the use of having able to keep your cultural identity when every step you take is closely monitored? What is the use of establishing chinese schools in a land where even after several generations, your passport is stamped “stateless’? What is the use of living in a country where, if, the limited few with residentship, at the first instant you accidently lost that document, you will be re-issued with a ‘stateless but allowed to stay’ document? What is the use of having to be able to prominently display chinese characters in shop fronts when, being chinese, your equity should not exceed a certain amount? What is the use of living in a land where you have no right as a citizen, let alone a ‘stateless but allowed to live’ residentship? What is the use of living in a land where minor incident like traffic accident with a bumiputra, you as chinese have to pay the other party even if it is not your fault? The list is endless.
Now compare that to Javanese-ruled Indonesia. I would say the most pampered group in the nusantara is the Indon-chinese. It is a tragedy that lives had been loss in riots but we cannot do much with a group that is non-responsive, selfish, arrogant and pribumi hating. Javanese had a grievance against the chinese during our struggle years, yet we treat them humanely; the Melayus do not, hey have no excuse to discriminate the chinese.
Javanese believe in an egalitarian society and we live it through our kejawen creed. Our history backed us up. Chinese were granted citizenship, though WNI, you are still considered citizen of Indonesia. You are allowed to conduct business to your hearts’ contend. Your movement are not restricted. What we get in return? Javanese are considered inferior by your kind. Most had run out of patience. You can deny it as much as you can. You can call me a redneck or paint me as anti-chinese, but I am speaking from my own observation. How many Indon-chinese families openly castigate their children for letting a brown kid in their home and had to hold their tongue when they realised that this brown kid can understand chinese? How many Indon-chinese parents think that their chinese blood will be tainted if their children married a pribumi? Can you deny these statements?
If you have not lived in country A & B, Javanese wisdom is that you shut up; otherwise you will be shredded into pieces by someone had been there. My parents had helped a few chinese families with Indon WNI because they do not believe one should be ‘stateless’ even after a few generations in the nusantara. These are grateful Indon- chinese and had kept in close contact with us. You are one of the ungrateful lot. Thank god you are in Holland. Don’t come back. Good riddance.
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Re,
@ Aluang Anak Bayang,
“He will embarrass the Chinese more with his illogical responses.”
Let the chinese viewers decide that, shall we?
Yes, of course, you will have the moral support of DXP and Dragonball. They are as deceitful as you are.
Btw what part of my comments are illogical responses?
One of your many inadmissible responses – The part where you said Indonesian maids should ditch their cultural and religious identity to work in Hongkong and Taiwan. For f**k sake, they are only temporary workers. Remember, in a panel of unbiased observers, you are making a fool of yourself.
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@Aluang Anak Bayang,
You used words I don’t know (anymore). For instance: kejawen creed, Melayu, nusantara.
My knowledge about them is slim, so shoot me all the way.Is there really a difference with javanese and pribumi? As far as I recall there isn’t.
How many Indon-chinese families openly castigate their children for letting a brown kid in their home and had to hold their tongue when they realised that this brown kid can understand chinese? How many Indon-chinese parents think that their chinese blood will be tainted if their children married a pribumi? Can you deny these statements?
Unfortunately that is something I can’t deny. It happened. But don’t take it too personally. This attitude isn’t aim special to the pribumi but also to other race like the blacks, white, red and brown. It is just the middle kingdom attitude where everyone outside the chinese community, culture are seen as barbarian. Hell, this kind of attitude is even common in east asian countries (china, japan and south korea).
When I was little, I often invited my pribumi friends (javanese and bataks) to stay on sunday. My parents allowed them to stay in my room to sleep, playing nintendo and watching anime on vhs. We even invited them with christmas, chinese imlek and new year eve. Even my (DEAD) uncle (with a hole so big as tennis ball in the left side of his head) married with pribumi woman. Then again this is just my experience. What do you want More? Do you want us to convert to the islam like you pribumi?you are still considered citizen of Indonesia. You are allowed to conduct business to your hearts’ contend. Your movement are not restricted. What we get in return?
What you get in return? Let’s see the tax we paid. The monthly salary we paid to the local workers, the credit we gave to some who are in bad need. Actually we, the middle class, are the backbone of the indonesian economy.
My parents owned a store. They worked their ass off 24/7. In fact they are my role model. We weren’t rich, we were the middle class. We hadn’t friends like suharto or high ranking officiers like some chinese we knew. We lived in pribumi neighbourhood. You knew what the problem was when you live in that kind of neighbourhood? Most pribumi see you as their prey. They assume since you own a store so you must be rich. Preman came now and then to our store. They threated to burn down our store if we don’t pay them monthly. The worst thing is when we went to the police, they didn’t help us. The police considered us as spoiled hence no need to help. The police wanted to protect us WHEN we paid them. I wonder which one was the biggest crook? The saddest part is that most of the so called friends didn’t do anything, they kept silent. Nice friends, huh? In fact you remind me of them. Talk big, but in the end no action, just words.My parents had helped a few chinese families with Indon WNI because they do not believe one should be ’stateless’ even after a few generations in the nusantara.
Good for your parents, but really are you going to claim all pribumi act like your parents? I bet your parents are the FEW exception of pribumi who really act instead of talking. If you really care about the poor chinese why don’t you help the ones in sumatra and sulawesi? I heard stories about the bad treatment by the local pribumi especially when the tsunami hit sumatra and left the chinese shopowner with almost nothing. They even had to beg for help but they didn’t get any since the local muslims saw/see them as infidels. You know how i knew this? My aunt (not blood related) who live in china has a nephew who was sent to indonesia by the PRC in order to help the tsunami victims. He saw and heard horrific stories of the bad situation of the chinese and the treatment they get by the local pribumi. The good thing about tsunamy is that many chinese has left sumatra. Most are now (il)legal in malaysia. It seems malaysia is much better than indonesia. The poor ones still live in sumatra since no one care about them even by their own fellow chinese. My heart goes to them.
With regard to Indon WNI, I can only say: we paid dearly for it, yep, it was expensive but it was worth since we intended to emigrate.
One of your many inadmissible responses – The part where you said Indonesian maids should ditch their cultural and religious identity to work in Hongkong and Taiwan. For f**k sake, they are only temporary workers. Remember, in a panel of unbiased observers, you are making a fool of yourself.
You don’t read my previous comment well. I was wondering if the pribumi workers would abandon their islam religion and embrace the chinese tradition and culture if they were granted the ROC citizenship.
Non-Indon readers may buy your lies and I will be doing my own people a great disservice if I stayed silent.
You sure you aren’t the one who lied all the time? In fact I suspect you of looking the other way when it is convenient to you.
Don’t worry I wont come back to indonesia again. I have learnt the hard way.
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The part where you said Indonesian maids should ditch their cultural and religious identity to work in Hongkong and Taiwan. For f**k sake, they are only temporary workers
Temporary only? How about over stay? Fighting and killing others while working in Malaysia? Arrested and Deported? So how for f**k sake that it be temporary. Bego loe.
Non-Indon readers may buy your lies and I will be doing my own people a great disservice if I stayed silent. Our Javanese government had done their best to accommodate our Indon-chinese population. I will be flying off tonight and will be back in 2 weeks’ time so I will just briefly address one of your lies re Country A & B.
What best have they done for the Indonesian Chinese! With wrongly cancelled and amended Laws? More and more laws implemented to milk the cow and please don’t say with pribumis are alike because the vast travellers are mostly Chinese okay. Sharia Laws subjugating the minorities to further persecution andmost of all marginalize the Chinese Indonesians. So take you 2 weeks with your wife and children to England and you could continues licking the spittles of the Brts and colonialist that you so despise.
Yes, of course, you will have the moral support of DXP, Dragonball and Janma. They are as deceitful as you are.
So that your lies and deceit will go undetected because because your parents’s nanny had breast fed them as all these while your thought had brought you to feel that the Hainanese Chinese had gold finger to the Dutch that you said got them killed.
This is also one reason I said that you are a coward and a traitor as you have always shown the outright hatred of others by choosing to ignore what are facts and what are fictions that you made up and prefer to make Chinese a scapegoat as an easy way out in showing your prominence.
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sputjam says:
I truly believe wandi is a racist at heart.
There are nigerians even in singapore. Some are playing for their national football team.
The issue of paying protection money is nothing new. even new york suffers from this during the mafia days. These guys can only prey on small businesses. But when huge conglomerate started to make inroads, the protection money businesses couldn’t collect anything from them and faltered. Wandi’s family had to balance between the amount paid and the returns from their businesses. If there is no money, then just close the shop and do other things. The ones killing the smal mom and pop shops are the giant supermarkets like Hero and carrefour. when these guys come to town, you can bet the protection racket picking will drop. Best to lease your shop to them and let them handle the racketeers.
Or better still, just employ natives to work in your shop. That will stop all the bulying and, spread wealth within the community and stop the protection money racket, as you will be seen as an equal, plus command respect within the community for providing jobs to the pris.
One problem with the chinese in south east asia is that they make a mountain out of a hill. There could have been some Chinese indonesian who were left out in the rescue of tsunami victimes, but i can bet there were many natives who were similarly neglected, due to the sheer scale of the event.
The chinese indonesian aren’t the only ones leaving aceh for malaysia. There is already a huge acheh community in malaysia and more are coming in due to economics. The famous malay actor, P Ramlee, who found fame in singapore working for keris film (owned by shaw brother-a singapore chinese company), is of aceh descend. There are numerous kampung acehs in the northern malay peninsular, just as there are kampung jawa in the south.
The thing is, like P Ramlee and shaw brothers, if all the community work together, there are profits to be made, which translate nto greater economic activity, and hence job creation, which benefits everyone. -
What make you think so that Shaw Brother’s need P Ramlee.
The thing is, like P Ramlee and shaw brothers, if all the community work together, there are profits to be made, which translate nto greater economic activity, and hence job creation, which benefits everyone.
Don’t you think this also happened in Indonesia? Except the Indonesians refuse to accept the fact what the Chinese had done for them by thinking that what they are doing have made the Chinese richer.
When you are paid a salary you do you work whereby the Indonesians always thinks that if without our work how could they be that rich!
I don’ think such thinking is rational so whether such thinking is logical or not is up to you to think. And by speaking for the Chinese meant to be racist then I would suppose most commentators do possess a prejudicial and bias outlook on the perspective with the topic at large.
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You are correct. shaw brother does not need P. ramlee, nor the malay peninsular needs shaw brothers. They left for hong kong.
What the chinese, european, indians and arabs has done was to exploit the riches of the malay archipelago and its inhabitants. Indians and arabs mostly spiritual, chinese and europeans mostly in resources.
It is no surprise that majority of sultans/rajas etc are of either arab or indian descend. And majority of companies that exploit the resources of indonesia are of chinese or europeans origins.
The sad fact is that, the benefit gained from these resources did not trickle down to the native on the street. hence the resentment.
Unlike dragonwall, shaw brothers invested in making malay films, and therefore the benefit and money trickled down to the malay actors and cinema workers. But the return to their investment were probably not very good and hence their decision to change base to hong kong. All due to economics.I termed wandi as racist due to her resentment against africans, and i detect some hatred for the pris.She is no different from other chinese in south east asia, always seeking a short cut to wealth, by emigrating to a wealthier nation, especially those countries on the UN list of best nation to live in, of which holland is not in the top ten, but canada is there at the top.
i just don’t understand, why CHINA IS NEVER ON THEIR LIST of countries to emigrste to? and why singapore, despite a chinese majority and high per capita income, have the second largest emigration rate per population, in the world? -
What the chinese, european, indians and arabs has done was to exploit the riches of the malay archipelago and its inhabitants
What riches are there in the Malay archipelago and its inhabitants? If you look closely the rich people in Malaysia are Chinese and thei business in a wide kaleidoscope.
When it comes to the issue it is always someone saying the Chinese exploit and capitalize others. Don’t you get it, it is the business mind that lead them for want to carry out their business, not serobot. So when you do business you are also exploiting whoever they are right?
shaw brothers invested in making malay films, and therefore the benefit and money trickled down to the malay actors and cinema workers.
There were not too much acting creativitty then compare to hongkong and the standard of malay movies comparing to what it is in the hongkong movies industries, won’t you move back considering that honkong were their first base?
those countries on the UN list of best nation to live in, of which holland is not in the top ten, but canada is there at the top.
Why? Easier immigration law. The need to open up their vast land. They need people.
i just don’t understand, why CHINA IS NEVER ON THEIR LIST of countries to emigrste to? and why singapore, despite a chinese majority and high per capita income, have the second largest emigration rate per population, in the world?
Don’t you think China is already over populated? Singapore is over populated considering their expansion and absorbing foreign techniques? Of course those who need room to expand will thus seek bigger ground to venture into.
What is there in Holland. Except Milk, cheese, cheap entertainment, the rest is all about drugs, underground activities and mafias.
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@sputjam,
There are nigerians even in singapore. Some are playing for their national football team.
Really. That’s good. fine to hear that. At least 1 point to Singapore.And how about indonesia? Will indonesia accept the influx of nigerians who are fleeing the country due the conflict between north and south?
Some nigerian muslims see indonesia as the perfect muslim country and try to come to indonesia to fleeing the conflicts. So they are easy accept as indonesian citizen since they are muslim, right?The issue of paying protection money is nothing new. even new york suffers from this during the mafia days. These guys can only prey on small businesses. But when huge conglomerate started to make inroads, the protection money businesses couldn’t collect anything from them and faltered. Wandi’s family had to balance between the amount paid and the returns from their businesses. If there is no money, then just close the shop and do other things. The ones killing the smal mom and pop shops are the giant supermarkets like Hero and carrefour. when these guys come to town, you can bet the protection racket picking will drop. Best to lease your shop to them and let them handle the racketeers.
You don’t really read my previous comment well, huh?
even new york suffers from this during the mafia days.
How about the present day? I bet the same situation.
But when huge conglomerate started to make inroads, the protection money businesses couldn’t collect anything from them and faltered.
The ones killing the smal mom and pop shops are the giant supermarkets like Hero and carrefour. when these guys come to town, you can bet the protection racket picking will drop. Best to lease your shop to them and let them handle the racketeers.
That’s true, I mean your theory about the giant eat the small ones but you forget we lived in the pribumi neighbourhood my parents deliberately chose a place where we knew we could made profit. A place we knew that the community needed the middle class. It turned out the strategy worked. There are no big supermarkets like something you called Hero or carrefour (French?). So your theory didn’t apply to us. The problem with you is that you put your theory with no regard to the situation.
Or better still, just employ natives to work in your shop. That will stop all the bulying and, spread wealth within the community and stop the protection money racket, as you will be seen as an equal, plus command respect within the community for providing jobs to the pris.
Sigh why I got the feeling I keep repeating myself?
Firstable, we employed the pribumi workers. We had 6! We couldn’t possible done the job alone! It was really busy all day we handled every single aspects big! Think about the one who contac the local logistic, the supplier, the workers in the store who give any customers immediate attention and prevented any customers for waiting too long etc. If I included the maids and the driver, it would be 9 in total!
My driver who was really funny guy was sometimes threatned by local pribumi because he worked for us and didn’t want to cooperate with them to rob us when we sleep. Since then he got harassment from some people in his neighbourhood. He came to us and made the confession. Since we really cared about him and wanted to protected him, we went to the police and paid the police to make sure the preman didn’t do him any harm. After we left indonesia for taiwan, he became the driver for my uncle. My uncle who was the only family member left in indonesia died in may 1998 with a hole so big as tennis ball in the left side of his head. Happy now?Second, are you now suggesting that hired the local pribumi, would stop the extortion by preman and police? And by providing jobs, the pribumi will give us respect?
Really, how old are are you? Your theories failed on every aspects. May I advice you that theory and practice mostly don’t match with real life? Grow up!as you will be seen as an equal, plus command respect within the community for providing jobs to the pris.
Did you get that from economy study or the social study? One should learn from life experience and not only from theory!
I truly believe wandi is a racist at heart
You think so? Good for you. another brilliant remarks from you got more?
This past few weeks, I found out that indonesiamatters is indeed indonesian.
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@sputjam,
“i just don’t understand, why CHINA IS NEVER ON THEIR LIST of countries to emigrste to? and why singapore, despite a chinese majority and high per capita income, have the second largest emigration rate per population, in the world?”
Because I hate communist government of china. The reason I emigrated to Canada is because the offer I got was much better than the one in usa. It is about supply and demand. I could also go to uk, but they offered me less than what usa or canada was willing to pay since the credit crisis hit uk so hard.
If and if communist regime gone, you bet your ass I am willing to move to Guangzhou in china. -
Because I hate communist government of china. If and if communist regime gone, you bet your ass I am willing to move to Guangzhou in china.
I think this is a rather wrong concept in changing the system. The communist system is in China and will not change, but the policy may. It is like blood in your body, can you change the blood in your system?
China had prove herself that she is willing to change and she did, lives change, living changes, development changes everything except the system.
I am making plans to move to China but will see how things develop. Ths US says they want a change but before changes could be made, things got worse.
Similar to Indonesia it is all political. Politic must be dealt with an iron hand.
Of all the condidates that I see none of them fit.
You know actually someone actually did split the Indonesian system from the ABRI dwi fungsi to make candidates weaker in term of support.
Nothing will bring back Indonesia unless SBY and only SBY will be able to do so, not megawati, not wiranto, prabowo.
If Try Sutrisno or his son in law it would be good because of their strong military achievements and background. I have not seen any person better then.
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One more thing Wandi, these people do not want to know what is reality. They just want to know what they want it to be, write what they want to hear abd belief in what they think.
Sorry for your uncle, but how many will accept that as a fact that had also happened to us. Our loss, though not life, were even more devastating factories gone, building smashed. It is all over.
The Indonesian government can’t be bothered. Everyone except the whole world are calling the Chinese a lair. Why? to protect their own f*cking skin.
Take a look at the Justice department, what have they done!. Those indicted and were suppose to stand trial and the AG has the cheek to say the files were missing and everyone goes free. I wonder if they are prepared to make the files of, all their so called Chinese on the DPO list, missing.
So go own with your life Wandi and make good yourself.
I am here because there are people that needs to be ticked bacause they are what I considered a menace to society, a social leech filled with such great hatred for the Chinese wherever you are. And I don’t care whoever they are or whatever they are. They could just keep coming and we will see.
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i don’t get it. first wandi detest nigerian muslims coming to indonesia, then she congratulated singapore for admitting nigerians into their country.
Of course indonesia is a rich country. rich in natural resource.(unfortunately, not in human resource). with the two combination, any more advance civilisation will be able to take advantge of the situation, plus ample uninhabited land.
indonesian native are lucky the weather does not suit the europeans. Otherwise they would have been anhilated like the red indians and the aborogines.
But the luckiest of the lot has to be the chinese, who saw ample oppotunities to exploit the natural resources, and find a market for it.The only cities in the malay archipelago, were either founded/built by the europeans or the chinese. malay stay mainly in small kampung communities, as the do not trade. Plus their skills are mainly wooden base and does not have the knowledge of metalurgy.
It is unfortunate that wandi’s uncle suffered in such a catastrophe. i am still unsure the reason why the chinese are detested in muslim south east asia.
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@dragonwall
So go own with your life Wandi and make good yourself.
Thx for the message. I am intend to make career and make sure I will be filthy rich as possible.
Btw, there seemed to be another wandi on the topic Lia Eden. know well I only respond to topics related to chinese indonesian, so that way you people dont confuse us.
what am I talking about? this is the last time I post my comment on indonesianmatters since I will get busy with my work from now on.
It was a pleasure to read all the comments in response to me. It only confirms my thoughts. -
@ wandi
Why the hurry to close the chapter on Indonesia – the land where your parents made their riches to enable you to study overseas, and now the offspring bagged us from ashore. Chinese is and chinese are – Greedy and Ungrateful. Like many Indon-Chinese, they like to whinge about Javanese treatment, what paradise Chinese enjoyed in Melayu-ruled countries. The restrictions placed on the chinese population can no way be compared with Indonesia.
The biggest sin the Javanese government is guilty of was our noble ethos of threating others (in this case, the Indon-chinese) with respect and dignity. We have created a mess whereby we allowed our chinese population to thrive to the point of controlling 80% of our economy, and now they are muscling in on us with big talks.
Out of the two Melayu lands, one is worst off than the other; as long as you are chinese (regardless of how many generations in the land), you are ‘stateless’. The other didn’t fare too well either. Javanese Indonesia are way off better and reasonably fair to their chinese population, which was why we have chinese problem now. Chinese culture is incompatible to us. We have immaterialistic, shared societal lives and are easily self-contented. What we take from the land, we give back a little. This is what the chinese will never do. The anti-chinese mobs were made up of moslems, christians, etc; so it is a common foe among the pris.
If we had handled the Indon-chinese with a big stick like the Melayus, certainly we will be much loved now.
Indon-chinese like to bring up how friendly the Melayus are. Why not gather a few loud-mouthed chinese friends of yours from Melayu lands, and talk to me about their rights and priviledges.
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Irene says:
rofl. ngakak gw baca respon2nya.
Aluang Anak Bayang:
The biggest sin the Javanese government is guilty of was our noble ethos of threating others (in this case, the Indon-chinese) with respect and dignity.
ROFL. yes, you and your Javanese noble ethos.
Chinese culture is incompatible to us. We have immaterialistic, shared societal lives and are easily self-contented. What we take from the land, we give back a little.
hahah…sekalian aja put yourself on a cross, AAB!
you along with your ethnocentric cronies should stop acting like victims. the country has a crap system. thanks to everyone.
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@ Irene
Try to refute me logically. Otherwise you are just another ungrateful Indon-chinese, whose parents make it rich because of Javanese connections, and now bagging us overseas.
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@ Aluang Anak Bayang,
Why the hurry to close the chapter on Indonesia
As far as my concern,I have closed the Indonesian chapter long time ago. We dont owe pribumi anything. We employed pribumi workers,we paid tax etc. It is my parents money that made me possible to study abroad unlike some pribumi students who get funds to study abroad with the tax payer money. Chinese indonesian dont get such a privilige! Everything we do, have to come from ourself. We leave Indonesia since the circumstances are not ideal for chinese. This doesnt apply only to Indonesia but also to Malaysia and Brunei.
Why dont you vote on anti chineses party like the islamic party? that way you and I will accomplish what we want for the future.All chinese Indonesian should leave after making some fortunes and let the economy in pribumi hand. See if pribumi can manage the economy with their easy and relax attitude.
Do you really think all chinese indonesian are rich simply because they are chinese? Do you really think my parents were rich? hell no! they were poor. they had to borrow money within the chinese community. Indonesian banks dont give any loan to the chinese thanks to the policy of your friend suharto! In the end, we had several stores after decades of hard working and busting our ass 24/7. You know what they are saying: “What doesnt kill you make you stronger”
If we had handled the Indon-chinese with a big stick like the Melayus, certainly we will be much loved now.
LOL, are you ok in your head? do you really think race policies like NEP in malaysia is something the chinese malaysian or the indian malaysian like?
Chinese culture is incompatible to us. We have immaterialistic, shared societal lives and are easily self-contented. What we take from the land, we give back a little.
Really? how about the corrupt suharto family, friends, government,civil servants and the generals etc who love money so much? your claim is so ridiculous that i am speechless! Are you trying to make a joke or are you being serious?
although,It is true when you wrote than pribumi are easily self-contented.It is because pribumi dont have any ambition. Chinese=progressing. A chinese cannnot sit still and not accomplish things in his/her life. We want wealth wealth=stability. wealth=respect
Do you even know in what kind of era we live? it is the era of capitalist system where money, wealth and top education count. we live in the world wherein globalization plays a big role. dont believe me? take a good look at north korea. no ambition to play the capitalist game which results in poverty. Nothing Is Free!Try to refute me logically. Otherwise you are just another ungrateful Indon-chinese, whose parents make it rich because of Javanese connections
And your point is that only the chinese get rich and not their counterpart, the javanese? trading means both party have something to gain and not just one side. the fact that the chinese do it better is merely due to their attitude of trader.
For your information, most pribumi are hostile,but not all. There are few good ones. Unfortunately they are the old generation.
sighhh, talking to you is like talking to the wall. I feel like a tape recorder,repeating the same over and over again.Why do you drag me in this futile topic over and over again? try to live like a chinese indonesian for 1 year in indonesia then you know what i mean.
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Mi querido Wendy,
Pense que ya estas muy ocupado juntando dineritos (kaching, kaching, kaching!) y no volverias por aca…, y para que te regresaste con tus “whinings” and “rants”?
Learn how to prevent yourself from making “kneejerk reactions” (that would make people see how pathetic you really are). Inhale…, hold…, and now release. There you go, feeling better now?
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Eh, sorry, please change “prevent” to “refrain”. Mi ingles no es muy bueno porque nunca tuve oportunidad de tomar clases en universidades europeas. Soy un pobre brownie.
Comment on “Islam and Chinese”.
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@Lanang,
So chineses indonesians are equal to pribumis huh? So the ill treatments like beating random chineses by pribumis because the victims look like chineses, extortions, cops who don’t bother to help you even after you get robbbed, and other ill treatments ESPECIALLY BECAUSE YOU ARE BEING CHINESES are the same treatment the pribumis get? LOL, you know what? Keep that fantasy in mind. Maybe and maybe you might believe they actually true.
http://www.planetmole.org/indonesian-news/chinese-indonesians-and-discrimination-indonesia.html
There are of course more of this kind but I don’t bother to put them on all.
It is not the words or the theory or what the the minority think but the practice or rather the deeds that speak more volume.
If pribumis still look chineses like they are some aliens and treat them unequal, how can you expect the chineses not to think themselves as different than other indonesians like javaneses, maluku, dayaks etc? You all don’t have to believe me. Just go on streets. See it yourself.
@diego,
You hit the core of the problem. It is indeed the way I am raised and treated in indonesia. This kind of conversations i had it too in holland. I don’t want play hide and seek and hypocrycy with indos. I just told indonesians what I think about indonesia and the chineses relations. That’s it, take it or leave it. Most accept my point of view and still hope I return to indonesia (which is 0% of chance since I am going to Canada) or celebrate the independence day on 17 august with them annually.
Respect and improvement cannot come just from one side.
Btw, me an unlikeable person? Hmm, if i was that according to you, then I wouldn’t have much friends, would I? You see, the problem with having too much friends is that you need make time for them. It is what we called social moments and improving relationship but time isn’t what I have much I am busy so I need to divide my attention to them which isn’t always be easy people tend to be jealous or feel left alone if they don’t receive the appropriate attentions. The reason why I can comment you on this forum is because it is holiday now. Normally I don’t bother. Beside I am above all curious about the indonesian’s situation. That’s all.
Did you tell them you are indonesian? In case you don’t know it yet, in china, taiwan and singapore they have broadcast the may 1998 riots and other ill treatment of the indonesians towards the chineses after the independence of indonesia. Even the usa did some report see the reports links below I didn’t even know the events of may 1998 were so brutal I thought it was the same old story of pribumi beating some random chineses and burn the whole shops but it was more than that after seeing the images.
I got the full length images sent by the chineses from hong kong and shang hai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhru48BS82k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9OYlaNDchg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmnTPt0ENXc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6bSpvQ3d4o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OcASYOQhYY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wQ2zbI3gwU
@Lairedion,
When I wrote:”I know what indos are called here in holland, but I just don’t bother to lower myself to his level. I just feel to good to do that”
with that, I mean the words calling that associates with your ethnicity. It is not the same as the bad image and stereotype of all muslims in holland.
You get too fast offended since you have lived in holland, the dutch have name for the non dutch. I hope you still known dutch.
chineses=spleetoog
indos”=pinda
turks=turk augurk,stinkend naar oude kurk
marokkaan=geitenneuker
antillen/surinamers=zwarte aap.
furthermore,
So you claimed that they don’t have the rights to have real estate in indonesia, even when they have and I repeat dual passport? How come I saw them and their family have still their garuda passport especially when I bring them to the airport when they once in 2 years go on vacation to jakarta and brag all the time about how much money they are going to earn with the real estate when they retire and go back to indonesia?
And no, the people with whom i sometimes hang out are pure blood 100% indonesians.
Most of them aren’t born here to begin with! They married with indos women/men who live for decades in holland. This is what we called import bride. Are you presume I don’t know the difference between the mix blood and the 100% pure indo? Mix blood mostly hang out with only dutch.
I have 1 question: I knew via a friend a lot of nigerians muslims who are very religious and charmed with asian women. Since they heard indonesia is the biggest islamic country in the world, they are willing to move the entire muslim community to indonesia. Of course not many at the same time they ask a friend of mine who work at the shell company in nigeria how to get indonesians citizenship. my friend knew i have lived in indonesia so he contacted me 5 weeks ago and I told him that it would be a piece of cake since the nigerians are muslims same as the indonesians and above all muslims all over the world support each other. Furthermore I told him that keeping cultural identity would be a problem so they need to assimilate with the indos which is clearly what they eager want to do with pleasure. Same with the africans who stay in borneo kalimantan although they were illegal I think.
So to cut a long story, they can get indonesians citizenship easy, right?
Some of you use too much indos words I don’t recognize (anymore)
PS: if you don’t want me to comment again don’t comment to me so simple is it, but pls answer the question. I owe it to my friend.