Islam and Chinese
Mar 8th, 2007, in News, by PatungThe distance between Indonesian Chinese people and Islam.
Julia Suryakusuma wrote in the Jakarta Post recently:
The Chinese in Indonesia are usually Buddhist, Christian or Confucian. In fact, the actual number of Muslim Chinese is not known, but there are not many.
And then:
The Religious Affairs Ministry has in the past made strenuous efforts to squelch academic research on the Chinese contribution to Islam in Indonesia. This is because for most Indonesians the link seems intuitively absurd and improbable: “Chineseness” and “Islam” are assumed to be totally paradoxical stereotypes or “identity concepts”.
Cheng Ho, 1371-1433.
She then notes that the role of the Chinese in spreading Islam in Indonesia was in fact considerable, and that it was a two-fold matter. First there were actual Chinese Muslims, such as the relatively famous mariner Admiral Cheng Ho, or Zheng He, who established Chinese Muslim (Hanafi) communities in Palembang, San Fa (West Kalimantan), and along the northern coast of Java, especially at Semarang. Secondly, and more indirectly, it was the Chinese who developed the ports, city life and supply networks that attracted Muslim (non-Chinese) traders to Indonesia, and this facilitated the spread of Islam by opening up the Indonesian states to Islamic trading, and then missionary, networks.
What’s more, as John Sidel in Riots, Pogroms, Jihad says, the first waves of Chinese migrants to Indonesia in the 15th & 16th century soon assimilated into Indonesian society, (Cheng Ho was one who specifically encouraged this), and as with the Baba Chinese of Malaya, Chinese mestizos in the Philippines, and Sino-Thai lukjin in Siam, locally born Chinese in Indonesia soon took up most of the linguistic, cultural, and religious forms of the society where they found themselves.
Yet today few Chinese are Muslims, many still speak a dialect of Chinese, and many still maintain Chinese cultural traditions, and further, many are loathe to consider themselves Javanese or Sundanese, etc. Indonesian nationalists will be pleased to hear that the Dutch are to “blame” for this.
Old loyalties.
One feature of Dutch society which has often stood out, even to the Netherlands’ neighbours, was the strict separation in the past between the Catholic and Reformed communities. In many ways Catholics and Protestants in Holland inhabitated separate worlds, with their own schools, clubs, sporting teams, etc, the two worlds often barely meeting.
When the Dutch took control of the East Indies they tended to recreate the system they were familiar with in some respects, and their policies resulted in something like a caste or apartheid system developing in the colonies, not totally unlike what they were used to at home, says Sidel.
Chinese were barred from entry to the local aristocracy, (whereas in the past Javanese upper class men had often taken a Chinese wife), they were ghettoized, forced to live in particular areas of a town, their inter-city movement was restricted and regulated, they had special legal codes and administrative practices imposed on them, all different from that which applied to the “native” population.
These policies hardened ethnic boundaries, set up walls between the Chinese and Javanese, and largely prevented Chinese from assimilating and, for example, adopting the religion of the majority of the people, Islam.
Further, over time, as Dutch power grew and the Javanese aristocracy became ever more subjugated, the attractiveness for Chinese in assimilating declined, and the economic benefits of being a distinct, separate class, increased.
Towards the end of Dutch rule a new wave of immigrants, this time many non-Hokkien speakers, people who saw no great need to assimilate, and combined with the rise of Chinese nationalism, made the established trend for separateness stronger. Chinese associations were formed, schools, chambers of commerce, and the Dutch became much more accommodating.
After independence the policies of both the Sukarno and Suharto regimes tended to reinforce, often severely, the division between the ethnic groups. It is only recently, since the presidency of Gus Dur, that attempts have been made to break down the barriers built up over hundreds of years.
107 Comments on “Islam and Chinese”
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wandi says:
Barry Prima,
Most chineses in indonesia discover their chinese culture again from the the contact on mainland china, especially when suharto restored Diplomatic ties with the People’s Republic of China in 1990.
There are a lot ethnic chineses in Taiwan and Hong kong. Like everyone who emigrate from country A to country B,there is no doubt there are differences. Since chineses indonesians are chineses who live in chinese speaking places like hong kong,Taiwan and singapore, the differents are easily overcome with the exceptions of the nostalgic indonesians sate ayam, otak otak and lontong and their dialects that need to be adjust to the main chineses dialect stream. a part of my family and friends who lived in hong kong since 1990 is the best example of it.
You exaggerate too much when you claimed that the indonesian chinese have the greatest cultural identity crisis you have seen anywhere in the world.
Have you forgotten the older generation who had retired and were well off. They were Chinese-educated in the 60s before the Chinese schools were closed.For the older generation, especially the Chinese-educated ones, they will continue to play the role of cultural gatekeepers to help the younger generation become more Chinese.Assimilations of the chineses in Indonesia is pointless. 99,9% of the indonesians will still consider the ethnic chineses as an outsider,no matter how good they speak bahasa melayu and understanding the indonesians culture. assimilations process of the ethnic chineses in non chinese society is only succesfull in Thailand although the ethnic chineses kept their traditions chinese name translated into the Thais name.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ wandi
assimilations of the chineses in Indonesia is pointless. 99,9% of the indonesians will still consider the ethnic chineses as an outsider,no matter how good they speak bahasa melayu and understanding the indonesians culture.
Speaking Bahasa and understanding our culture do not make you one of us. It is your loyalty to our country that counts. The Indon Chinese speak very fluent bahasa because they were forced to; otherwise they would not even bother. There are many Malaysian Chinese who were born and bred in the land and could hardly speak bahasa. When you live in another land, you should try to love the country and assimilate.
There was a valid grievance against the Chinese by the Javanese during our war of independence . A few had acknowledged their mistake and had tried to make amend; however a great majority had not. The big 3 questions still remain,
1. Had the younger generation learnt from the mistake of their fathers?
2. Are they still thinking that the animosity toward them is economic jealousy?
3. If a Western power attacked Indonesia tommorrow, would there be a repeat of Chinese assisting the aggressor against the Pribumis. -
Barry Prima says:
You exaggerate too much when you claimed that the indonesian chinese have the greatest cultural identity crisis you have seen anywhere in the world.
I am only relating my personal experience, I have more than a few cultural identity issues myself hah ha…but I think most people here would agree that the chinese/pribumi problem in Indo is very very peculiar. I think your words below seem say the very same thing as me anyway:
Assimilations of the chineses in Indonesia is pointless. 99,9% of the indonesians will still consider the ethnic chineses as an outsider,no matter how good they speak bahasa melayu and understanding the indonesians culture. assimilations process of the ethnic chineses in non chinese society is only succesfull in Thailand.
I think your whole post is in no way disagreeing with my statement, except perhaps slightly on this point.
Chinese understanding of their own religous culture in Indonesia comes mostly from transalations of chinese text from english.
A significant part of the chinese community in indonesia especially in the outer islands (pontianak etc) never really lost touch with the rituals of chinese culture/religion, or the language (written and spoken) even under Suharto. When I make the statement above I am talking about the literary classes, and how they bought back the chinese religious cultural texts, in which case the use of english translations into bahasa is very common. Also because of the influence of Pancasila and Islamic/Chrisitan concepts, the understanding of traditional chinese religions in indonesia varies quite widely from the Mainland/Taiwan and Hong Kong. However things are changing under new freedoms, there is a huge resurgence of interest in chinese culture and in time will become more in conformity with elsewhere nearly everyone I know who can afford is bringing their kids up to speak mandarin or sending the kids to taiwan or china for study, people are also going to burma/taiwan etc as well to learn buddhism/taoism.
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Aluang Anak Bayang Says,
to answered your questions:
1. Had the younger generation learnt from the mistake of their fathers?
no, why?it is simply because they dont have much to gain and they experienced too much of dicrimination law base on race,created by the dutch and maintained by the pribumi. especially after suharto became president and anti chineses sentimets were high until may 1998. think about the so called chineses communism witch hunt in the sixties during the suharto era and may 1998 created by pribumi to use the ethnic chinese as a distract to gain political power by some pribumi high ranking officers. this kind of event will certainly take place again.
and you want the ethnic chineses act as indonesian true patriot? dont tell me you believe that when all ethnic chineses 100% back up the independent movement they all will treat very differently than today? fact is most chineses dont care about politics, they jut want social and economic stability and wealth.you forgot that there are chineses who helped the indonesians independent fighters.
read also this:
http://www.123independenceday.com/indonesia/national-anthem.html2. Are they still thinking that the animosity toward them is economic jealousy?
i think economic jealousy plays the central role in every pribumi mind. every chinese shop owners, conglomerates, who earnt money will always get the stigma of cheater. no point to deny that. besides chineses love to eat pork and we know pribumis who are majority muslims despise that. most of their jealousy is the fact that MOST indonesians are somehow lack of intelligence and capacity in comparison with the chineses
3. If a Western power attacked Indonesia tommorrow, would there be a repeat of Chinese assisting the aggressor against the Pribumis.
difficult to tell. you see in indonesia there are also mix blood between pribumis and chineses. according to me those mix blood will certainly fight the aggressor.
there are also alot of chineses who will not support the aggressors or support it. they just couldnt care less. they just want food on table,good educations for their children and stability. the chineses know they will still be treat as an outsider by the pribumis when the aggressor left no mtter if they fight the agressor or not.
no point to be optimistic that pribumi will change their attitude since the mass of pribumis are too uneducated and easily brainwash and the ethnic chineses are too few,just 5%of the total population of indonesiabtw, assimilate is a very dangerous term, that the turkic prime minister Erdo?an despise. he doesnt want the turkic germany assimilate into the german society. it would cause loss of identity. assimilation doesnt get anyone better: look at the jew in the world,no matter how hard they assimilate,they still consider as an outsider.
if you think assimilation is okay, what about the assimilations of the indonesians workers in Hong kong and Taiwan if they want the country’s citizenship? you think it is okay that the indonesian workers should abandon the islam religion and indonesians identity? and become full chineses inside and outside?you wrote:When you live in another land, you should try to love the country and assimilate. i think you should give that advice to your fellow oversea indonesians who live in the west,hong kong, taiwan and australia. see if they agree with your idea of assimilation
i have a question for you: if the islamic terrorists like Al Qaida invade the west with back up from the arabs nations, will the indonesians muslims who live in the west assisting the muslim fighters who they considers halal than the infidel west?
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@ wandi
re Q1.
I have encountered one too many Indon Chinese who still refuses to acknowledge the fact that bule could be so evil that they bribed the pris to kill the chinese. Bule could do no wrong in Indon-Chinese eyes.
and you want the ethnic chineses act as indonesian true patriot? dont tell me you believe that when all ethnic chineses 100% back up the independent movement they all will treat very differently than today?
You are singing the woeful tune as the ungrateful lots because majority were never patriotic to begin with.
Have a look at a handful of seriously wealthy Indon-Chinese who had helped our guerilla fighters. Every pris knows who they are. Aren’t they rewarded beyond their wildest dream?
you forgot that there are chineses who helped the indonesians independent fighters.
read also this:
http://www.123independenceday.com/indonesia/national-anthem.htmlI am not saying there were no chinese who lended hand during our struggle years, BUT an overwhelming majority (guesstimated uo to 99.9%) helped the Bule suppressed us. They helped the Bule in spite of being warmly well received to stay in our land. And after we won the fight on our own, you expected us to treat you nicely?
ps. The link takes me to unrelated page.
re Q2.
i think economic jealousy plays the central role in every pribumi mind. every chinese shop owners, conglomerates, who earnt money will always get the stigma of cheater. no point to deny that. besides chineses love to eat pork and we know pribumis who are majority muslims despise that. most of their jealousy is the fact that MOST indonesians are somehow lack of intelligence and capacity in comparison with the chineses
Having a creative mind is intelligent, learning by rote is not. The chinese makes good factory workers, that is why China is the world’s factory. Helping bule subdue another asian who welcomed you as family is ethically unsound.
Lack of intelligence? We are still in power in Indonesia, the Melayus are still in control in Malaysia; in Brunei, the chinese do not get residentship. We are smart enough to know who the real enemy is.
Lack of financial capacity? That is what you think. On the surface, you own the shops, the businesses; but who is controlling the supply? Also the spice trade era and the gold bullions, the creation of the World Bank ring a bell? Which Javanese royal family backed Pak Karno, and what are they worth? I bet you don’t know any of this with your ‘intelligent?’ brain.
re Q3.
If a Western power attacked Indonesia tommorrow, would there be a repeat of Chinese assisting the aggressor against the Pribumis.
difficult to tell.
No, not difficult to tell if you are honest. I can answer this one for you. You would be jumping onto their bandwagon and attack the first pri you see.
The rest of your paragraphs are ‘talk cock’. Ask Dragonball if you don’t know what that means.
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Kiwibali says:
“difficult to tell. you see in indonesia there are also mix blood between pribumis and chineses. according to me those mix blood will certainly fight the aggressor.”
– Isnt this further support the idea of assimiliation. To quote Aluang; “it is your loyalty to our country that counts.” a statement i fully support!
The idea of National langguage and the prohibition of other languages used as a lingua franca in Indonesia, is to enhance the feeling of shared experience, a shared identity to hopefully build loyalty among the masses. The centralised goverment, of which impose a unitary regional system based more closely on javanese governance also was made to build loyalty. The decison to build the nation with a unitary system instead of a federalist system, was also made to create this sense of shared identity and experience. Indonesia is full of different ethnic groups and cultures, its a hard task for the goverment to keep this country together. Soeharto uses force to glue the country together, a method that that is frown upon.
A nation have to be strong and united, and since the use of force to do so are deemed to be evil and inhuman, and the method of forcing one culture to dominate and other well established cultures are deemed unethical and evil. Assimiliation process is there to promote loyalty to the country. and since the are no devices to measure loyalty, unfortunately most of the time people jugde based on the most seeable feature, ur race. Then wouldnt assimilation through marriage be one of the answer to build loyalty to the country?“if you think assimilation is okay, what about the assimilations of the indonesians workers in Hong kong and Taiwan if they want the country’s citizenship? you think it is okay that the indonesian workers should abandon the islam religion and indonesians identity? and become full chineses inside and outside?”
– Yes, if they feel that they’re loyalty lie with the Chinese goverment, then why not. Its no good to have a ‘pribumi’ of which their loyalty fall for the other team. Why would they have to abandon their religion? is not a question of religion, is a question of loyalty to a state. Unless of course the state prohibit the religion.“you wrote:When you live in another land, you should try to love the country and assimilate. i think you should give that advice to your fellow oversea indonesians who live in the west,hong kong, taiwan and australia. see if they agree with your idea of assimilation”
– Im telling Indonesian overseas right now, if your in rome do as the roman does! Im an Indonesia living overseas, i speak english everyday, even if im with a fellow Indonesian. The only time i speak Indonesian is when the only people around me are Indonesian or understand Indonesian. I Learn their history. the first 2 years i arrived i socialised almost completly with the locals, it was a hard couple of years, but i have gained an immense ammount of knowledge about the custom and language. Now most people thought i’ve been here for most of my life. But my loyalty still stay with Indonesia, my second home might be overseas but my motherland is always Indonesia.“there are also alot of chineses who will not support the aggressors or support it. they just couldnt care less. they just want food on table,good educations for their children and stability.”
– exactly! they couldnt care less, they just want to have a good life. Thats what the west offered the chinesse in the colonial era. and the chinesse took it. Cant really blame them, when the other choice is to live misserably. But you have highlighted the exact thing that Aluang has mentioned, where does your loyalty lies? How could a fellow indonesian trust each other if the one side will switch side on very first sight of gold and bread and ‘stability’? War and revolution is hard, but if during the lead up to Independence every kings, warlords sultans etc, went for the quick fix of stability Indonesia will not be known today. It would still be under the ducth control. -
@ wandi
“if you think assimilation is okay, what about the assimilations of the indonesians workers in Hong kong and Taiwan if they want the country’s citizenship? you think it is okay that the indonesian workers should abandon the islam religion and indonesians identity? and become full chineses inside and outside?”
This is stupidity. I don’t even bother to response, but since Kiwibali mentioned it, here is 2 rupiahs.
The Indon maids were in Hongkong and Taiwan to work temporary. It would be to their advantage to learn the language of host country and employers to blend in. Why should they change abandon their religion and become full Chinese? We don’t expect expat nationals to ditch their religions and identity for the sake of staying in Indonesia temporary. If they are going to stick around for generations, YES, we expect them to assimilate or at least know our culture and be able to speak our language fluently
The Chinese were here in the nusantara to stay permanently. Generations after generations they should had adopted our culture or at least speak fluent bahasa. This was not to be. Indon Chinese being an exception because Javanese culture and bahasa were forced on them. Malaysian Chinese even after several generations could not even speak the local language.
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@ Kiwibali
Re:
exactly! they couldnt care less, they just want to have a good life. Thats what the west offered the chinesse in the colonial era. and the chinesse took it. Cant really blame them, when the other choice is to live misserably. But you have highlighted the exact thing that Aluang has mentioned, where does your loyalty lies? How could a fellow indonesian trust each other if the one side will switch side on very first sight of gold and bread and ’stability’? War and revolution is hard, but if during the lead up to Independence every kings, warlords sultans etc, went for the quick fix of stability Indonesia will not be known today. It would still be under the ducth control.Thanks for your unbias comment. Trust and loyalty is not the Chinese’s strongest point. They could be your best friend, but at the sight of gold, would betray a long time friend.
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@ Aluang Anak Bayang,
“I have encountered one too many Indon Chinese who still refuses to acknowledge the fact that bule could be so evil that they bribed the pris to kill the chinese. Bule could do no wrong in Indon-Chinese eyes”
Obviously you have never encountered me or chineses like me. Bule cant do anything wrong LOL. they are too much warmonger and tend to look down on non white. their cruelty can be proven just by looking into the history.
“I am not saying there were no chinese who lended hand during our struggle years, BUT an overwhelming majority (guesstimated uo to 99.9%) helped the Bule suppressed us. They helped the Bule in spite of being warmly well received to stay in our land. And after we won the fight on our own, you expected us to treat you nicely?”
How sure are you that 99,9% helped the bule? you just made that up. i remember what my grandfathers told me about the indonesians independent war. all the chineses tried their best not to involve in that nasty war. we were considered as alien by both side. the best we could do was kept a low profile. I am glad we did that. because 99,99% didnt fight along the pribumis against the bule,it didnt mean the chineses indonesians are guilty.This attitude is what we chineses share with others other chineses in other parts of the world. its called:mind your own business. Look at the PRC and ROC. they never stick their nose in others affairs. they just want do business,nothing more!
Siauw Giok Tjhan and Liem Koen Hian were the examples of the reward from the pribumis for chineses indonesians who fought along with the pribumis independent fighters. search on google about them. wait ,no need to do that since you probably already know that dont you?
what should they do according to you? should they all embrace the patriotsism of indonesia and kill all bule? i doubt it will help their position in indonesia after the bule left. one cannot deny the different of culture which will lead to the discrimination of the chineses.
“ps. The link takes me to unrelated page”.
maybe you should disable the pop-up.
“Having a creative mind is intelligent, learning by rote is not. The chinese makes good factory workers, that is why China is the world’s factory”.
yes, mainland china is now the world’s factory. but it is a normal economic trend when an agriculture country transforms into a developed country. look at south korea and the previous century with Japan. this kind of development is the same as long as they keep their hard work and sent more and more students to the west to learn their technology and come back to china to attribute china,same what japaneses-and south koreans students did in the previous century. Being called as factory of the world isnt something to be ashamed as long, we keep evolving,which is the case with china.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/business/worldbusiness/01factory.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2415241.stm
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_43/b3805001.htm“Lack of intelligence? We are still in power in Indonesia, the Melayus are still in control in Malaysia; in Brunei, the chinese do not get residentship. We are smart enough to know who the real enemy is”
finally i got the sentence out of you:”We are smart enough to know who the real enemy is”
thx. that is just what i need to know. it is clear your view is full of bias toward the ethnic chineses no matter what they do. in case you dont know,malaysia,indonesia and brunei try their best to get along with china. they even do weird things to please china.
chineses brunei who dont got the permanent resident is indeed troublesome. one that we should focus on in Shang hai. for now we can only offer them this choice:
http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/immigration/chinese_nationality/q6.shtml“Lack of financial capacity? That is what you think. On the surface, you own the shops, the businesses; but who is controlling the supply? Also the spice trade era and the gold bullions, the creation of the World Bank ring a bell? Which Javanese royal family backed Pak Karno, and what are they worth? I bet you don’t know any of this with your ‘intelligent?”
ROFL, it didn’t ring a bell. For the one who despise the bule,you sure are proud of the so called the creation of the world bank by the bule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank
If pribumis are so great and there are also rich Javanese royal family why don’t the rich nobles help their own people by donate or provide them loans? And yes,I don’t have a clue how rich your javaneses royal family are. Not a single clue with my brain. You seem to forget that according to economy rule,traders are the backbones. If you think you know so much,why you don’t vote anti chineses party or something like that? That way you will force the chineses out and let see if your theory are correct. I really hope sharia law will be implemented in Indonesia. I am sure the exodus of all chineses Indonesians will start immediately.
At the PRC Embassy the diplomats were talking about dual citizenship that will granted to overseas chineses. But this policy will face hardtime since south east asian countries are afraid to loose their ethnic chineses and certainly refuse to sign this implement. I think this would be a good opportunity for countries like Indonesia and malysia to prove themselves they don’t need their ethnic chineses to sustain their economy on wealth level. So why don’t you go to your government or political party and ask them if it possible to perform this policy between Indonesia and PRC?
“No, not difficult to tell if you are honest. I can answer this one for you. You would be jumping onto their bandwagon and attack the first pri you see”
So I didn’t know you could read my mind! So du bist ubermensch! Sieg hitler! Well, i take my words back. You are just acting like an ordinary pribumi. Not to insult you ofcourse. It is just a fact. I never understood why pribumis urged the chineses Indonesian back to Indonesia after may 1998. you killed,raped and slaughtered as many as possible and yet you want them back. It killed my braincells to figure out what more you wanted from them. Not all chineses Indonesians are rich. I felt sory for the ones who have to stay there. in the near future when nationalism in China gains more power, we certainly wont forget the poor chineses in south east asian countries especially in malaysia,brunei and indonesia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/indonesia/latest_news/118461.stm
The thing is if I act according to your logic, then I would attack the first pribumi i see. Hmmm that would be awkward since in our family we have 1 pribumi,which is happen to be my aunt. So she would be the one I kill if your logic doesn’t fail you,right?
Did you realise how much Indonesians workers in Taiwan, who are willing to switch their passport with the Taiwanese’s?
“Malaysian Chinese even after several generations could not even speak the local language.”
Let me guess,you saw few kids cannot speak bahasa melayu and you immediately presume all chineses malaysians cannot speak bahasa melayu.
The Malaysian Chinese communities, therefore, usually have a choice to send their children to either Chinese schools or Malay schools. Whichever schools they went to, the Malay language must be taught as a compulsory subject, if the language of instruction is not already in Malay. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Chinese
“Trust and loyalty is not the Chinese’s strongest point. They could be your best friend, but at the sight of gold, would betray a long time friend”
Hmm very very bias. Then again its not surprising me at all. You don’t even know what some of the chineses Indonesians had done to help the local pribumis . I bet those chineses have done more than you to their neighbourhood.
Btw: who is dragonball?
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@Kiwibali,
“Im telling Indonesian overseas right now, if your in rome do as the roman does! Im an Indonesia living overseas, i speak english everyday, even if im with a fellow Indonesian. The only time i speak Indonesian is when the only people around me are Indonesian or understand Indonesian. I Learn their history. the first 2 years i arrived i socialised almost completly with the locals, it was a hard couple of years, but i have gained an immense ammount of knowledge about the custom and language. Now most people thought i’ve been here for most of my life. But my loyalty still stay with Indonesia, my second home might be overseas but my motherland is always Indonesia.”
I am afraid you are a class apart. Indonesians who live in Holland tend only to live in Indonesians neighbourhood. Take a look at molukkers neighbourhood or the javaneses people who live in the same neighbourhood in Arnhem. On 17 august 1945 they celebrate the Indonesians independent day with indonesian cuisine. I never heard Indonesians in Holland speak dutch when they were together. With exception of the youth since they don’t speak bahasa melayu and only dutch. Some Indonesians insist I speak bahasa melayu instead of bahasa belanda. Maybe I should give them your recommendation and point of view?
Indonesia never exist,at least not in the form of the present day. Indonesia was consisted of thousands of thousands of islands with each its own sultans. I think Indonesia should be greatful to the dutch since they were the one who have gather all the islands into one big family.
I don’t see people from malukku very proud to be called Indonesians. Instead they want to be called orang malukku same with Aceh, West Papua and the dayaks in Kalimantan.http://dayakbaru.com/weblog08/?p=644
Furthermore your claim about assimilation, look what it took my uncle too. NOWHERE. In may 1998 he was killed by some random pribumis. Simply because he was chinese,although his pribumi driver shouted to the attackers that my uncle married to a pribumi didn’t do him any good. In the end he has a hole in his head. I am pretty sure he will tell you now( if he could speak to you) that the concept of assimilation is futile since one always will be judge on his appearance and not on his fluently native speaking,the history, learning by rote the national anthem etc. its also useless to fight along the pribumis against (future)invaders,like Siauw Giok Tjhan and Liem Koen Hian did during the independence war against the dutch. They were chineses Indonesians who fought for the independence of Indonesia. See what good brought them too. Not only both found their end at cruel hands,but there were many examples of chineses Indonesians who were bitter by that experience and hence will not anything have to do anymore with pribumis especially when Suharto became the president. He tried so many policy to assimilate the chineses into the society and in the end? No results since no matter what kind of policies, pribumis only see chineses as alien. Which is good to my opinion. This kind of attitude will certainly make those chineses Indonesians realise their future is everywhere except in Indonesia and that will force them out of Indonesia.
Same with the jews. They assimilate with the locals,but in the end they were slaughterd by the NAZI,arabs,Russians etc. assimilation is pointless.
I can only give 1 recommendation to chineses indonesians: get a master degree at the western university and emigrate to the West or chineses speaking country like Taiwan,Singapore and China. In the west,you may have your own culture as long you contribute to the welfare of the country. Take an example of me: i live in Holland,but next year when i get promoted, the chance is very high i emigrate to Canada. it is all about business and stability.
Fortunately this kind of brain drain is also very well known in Malaysia. The Indians and the chineses are leaving and their destined place are mostly Canada, Scandinavic countries and UK -
sputjam says:
fact is, the chinese who came during the time of cheng ho assimilated well with the locals in south east asia. Those who were muslims probably inetrmarried with natives and became one. Those that were not muslims became the babas and nyonyas.
But the new wave of chinese that came during the period under colonisation, were mostly nationalist, chased out by war and famine in their homeland, and welcomed by the europeans for their skill, looked down on the babas and nyonyas, who were chinese but could not speak and act like one.
Due to peer pressure, most of the babas and nyonyas abandon their culture and embrace their lost kindred.
as an example, peer pressure also causes many female muslims to cover their heads.In the case of singapore, whom some have suggested that they should be part of china, 1000 people left singapore(mostly chinese) for a better place in the west last year. So indonesia’s so called brain drain, as mentioned by wandi is a common occurence amongst chinese in south east asia, irrespective of country.
I can understand the anguish due to the death of an uncle in 1998, but after the time of japanese occupation, many malays were slaughtered by the chinese in malaya, for supporting or working with the japanese, but very few if any, left for better destinations. Unfortunately, they left out Lee Kuan Yew, who worked as a translator to the japanese occupiers.
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@Sputjam,
Until the event of may 1998, chineses indonesians were taught by assimilation that they were one as pribumis by suharto policy. Some even might believe they were part of indonesia, but when things get bad, the pribumis look to the non pribumis. In all case we knew it was the chineses who were used as scapegoats repeatly. I bet to you all that may 1998 is something the chineses indonesians would not forget, in fact it will be told to the next generations and so on.
Anguish due to the death of an uncle has nothing to do with it now. It was merely a good lesson to be remembered about ”indonesian assimilation project” which failed from the beginning. The chineses indonesians face double trouble. On one side they were taught to be part of the big indonesian family, and due the event of may 1998 and many other anti-chineses events in the history of indonesia after 1945, they know they will never be part of indonesia. Which is logic according to me. On other side many young generations know little of their chineses culture due the assimilation policy. They don’t know how to speak proper mandarin, they only knew some chinese dialects. Now they tried to discover their roots which has not always been easy.
You also mentioned about malaysia, but malaysian’s political situation is very different than the indonesians. The ethnic minority of chineses and indians are far more better treated than in indonesia. Malaysia isn’t perfect but certainly better than indonesia.
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@ wandi
Until the event of may 1998, chineses indonesians were taught by assimilation that they were one as pribumis by suharto policy. Some even might believe they were part of indonesia, but when things get bad, the pribumis look to the non pribumis. In all case we knew it was the chineses who were used as scapegoats repeatly.
May 1998 was a political strategy by the then government to hold onto power. The chinese was easily scapegoated because of the resentment built over the past decades. The violence happened only in West Java.
I bet to you all that may 1998 is something the chineses indonesians would not forget, in fact it will be told to the next generations and so on.
You conveniently forget about the hundreds of thousands of pribumis suppressed and killed by the Dutch with the help of the chinese. My great granddad was a guerilla commander by night and a farmer by day. He was betrayed by a Pontianak hainanese ‘friend’ who pointed him out to the Dutch and was shot on the spot. So much for the peaceful Chinese who had never killed any pribumis but let the Dutch finish us off. PN believed only the hokkiens were traitors, but I think it is across the board. Probably you should note this down and pass them onto your next generation.
Anguish due to the death of an uncle has nothing to do with it now. ….., they only knew some chinese dialects. Now they tried to discover their roots which has not always been easy.
Learning and acknowledging what went wrong is a prevention of history being repeated. You are a bitter chinese who had not learn anything at all.
You also mentioned about malaysia, but malaysian’s political situation is very different than the indonesians. The ethnic minority of chineses and indians are far more better treated than in indonesia. Malaysia isn’t perfect but certainly better than indonesia.
In Bold – Bulls**t. They don’t enjoy as much freedom of wealth as the Indon Chinese. The grass is always greener on the other side.
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@Aluang Anak Bayang,
“May 1998 was a political strategy by the then government to hold onto power. The chinese was easily scapegoated because of the resentment built over the past decades. The violence happened only in West Java”
It wasn’t only a political strategy by the then government, the government couldn’t possible have succeed without the help of the pribumis who are still resent the ethnic chineses until today. The violence happened everywhere in Indonesia. Stop being a denial.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,IDN,,469f389bc,0.html
“Learning and acknowledging what went wrong is a prevention of history being repeated. You are a bitter chinese who had not learn anything at all”
Look who is talking! I think you should think all the atrocities committed by pribumis after the independence of Indonesia. Ofcourse if you can do such a think!
“In Bold – Bulls**t. They don’t enjoy as much freedom of wealth as the Indon Chinese. The grass is always greener on the other side”
Are you claiming the political situation of Indonesia is much better than the chineses Indonesian?
Why don’t you and your kind vote on anti chineses party? For instance the Islamic party and their agenda to insert sharia law in the near future. We could kill 2 births with 1 stone. All chineses Indonesians leave Indonesia which would make me happy and you would be happy that there aren’t any chineses left on bumiputra soil so you can demonstrate to your fellow pribumis and foreigners that you pribumis can take care of the economy and so on. So pls vote for inserting the sharia law and the islamic parties. I know most Indonesians muslims see themselves as part of the arabs like the malaysians people do. LOL
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diego says:
This wandi (that name reminds me of sofyan wanandi, oh, the face, that face, revolting) … is this just another incarnation of dragonwail?
I really despise chinxes who think they’re superior, when they’re actually a slimmy rateros, as much as I despise islamist bigots.
How about this: stop stealing, be more honest as a person, integrate, pay some respect to the place that has given you life (otherwise your parents would have died of hunger during the great leap), …, and we’ll stop calling you chinx. Allright?
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Why don’t you and your kind vote on anti chineses party? For instance the Islamic party and their agenda to insert sharia law in the near future. We could kill 2 births with 1 stone. … LOL
Listen Wan Di Chinq,
It is so obvious from your “suggestion” that it is in your interest to see Indonesia fall into the hands of islamist bigots (as it would ruined the whole social structure and civilzation).
And guess who will benefit the most from that? you, your kind, who has no problem bowing to lick the balls of the islamists. You two bigots (slimey chinxes and islamists) definitely make a good freaky couple, both are lacking moral compass.
So, thanks for your perverted “suggestion”, but we don’t need it (*garbage*). We can kick you _both_ together out from Indonesia.
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@diego,
How about this: stop being resentful to the ethnic chineses,try not to bust the chineses indonesians, but also your dirty corrupt government and the money stealers in your pribumi government from IMF funds and the world bank destined to the local projects. Stop being hypocrycy and blame all bad things to the chineses and for most all, be grateful for the economic development the chineses have contributed to indonesia. without them…you fill self in.
Btw, it isn’t chinx, it is chinks to be correctly.
My family fought during the war against the communists mao zedong. When the nationalists lost the war, the half of our family went to Taiwan with Chiang Kai-Shek and the other half went to indonesia. In 1990 we decided to move to Taiwan permanently. So the great leap of the dirty Mao policy didn’t apply to us.
“So, thanks for your perverted “suggestion”, but we don’t need it (*garbage*). We can kick you _both_ together out from Indonesia”
I doubt you and the remnants of suharto could really kick the muslim fundamentalists out. But dreaming isnt prohibited. Furthermore I really doubt the ethnic chineses will ever to cooperate with the muslim fundamentalists who tend to force people to embrace the islam or they will be die as infidels. It isn’t a perverted suggestion. This scenario could highly happen especially within 100 years when the natural resources of indonesia are depleted and the westerns don’t donate to the miltairy force anymore to combat the militants muslims in the so called war on terror. When that day comes, remember who would be your sugardady and pls don’t blame the chineses again when the muslims fundamentalist gain power. In a matter of fact don’t blame chineses for things beyond the control like your tsunami disaster.
I think the fact you talk about the muslims in indonesia and the ethnic chineses, speak volume of your ignorance. I think it is time for you take a deep look into them both. And not the stereotype one. Pls don’t fall off your cheap chair when you find out that your theory is unsound. Islam and chineses never mix in general. Don’t worry when the islamic parties control indonesia, I will make sure to make the chineses indonesians understand to leave and also make sure you keep your words by saying you will kick the islamists out. See if you got really BIG Cohones, ROFL.
People like you shouldn’t talk but instead vote on the anti chineses political party. It doesn’t matter whether it nationalists or islamic party. After all we share the same vision: the exodus of all chineses indonesians. So get up and start campaign now. Every minutes count!
@dragonwall,
So you are dragonwall, nice to meet you. I am not sure but I think we have met before on this forum?
Now I just need to find out who is dragonball.
@dragonwall,
There is no need to adapt diego way of thinking. Let him call us chinks and so on. I know what indos are called here in holland, but I just don’t bother to lower myself to his level. I just feel to good to do that.
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dragonwall says:
KISS MY ARSE. LICK MY BALLS THEN DIE AND GO
You speak too much about your own taht you despise others by swearing and name calling.
People like you behaves more like cowards and hypocrite but pretended not to be one.
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@Wandi
it seems that you have made up your mind not to have anything to do with Indonesia. fair enough no good in forcing someone.
“At the PRC Embassy the diplomats were talking about dual citizenship that will granted to overseas chineses. But this policy will face hardtime since south east asian countries are afraid to loose their ethnic chineses and certainly refuse to sign this implement. I think this would be a good opportunity for countries like Indonesia and malysia to prove themselves they don’t need their ethnic chineses to sustain their economy on wealth level. So why don’t you go to your government or political party and ask them if it possible to perform this policy between Indonesia and PRC?”
The reason not to allow dual citizenship is about national loyalty. Indonesia is a young conuntrym with a diverse range of ethnicty, some of which hate each other. its hard to manage such a massive array of cultures not to mention the geographic dislocation of the different groups. So in order to ‘glue’ the country together the goverment, had to build this sense of loyalty to the nation. One of the first point to judge one loyalty to a nation is through one membership, or nationationality to a state. In other words, what pasport are you carrying. Given that ethnic chinese are often felt that even though they hold the same pasport as other indonesian, they are still being labelled as ‘others’, and therefore their loyalty to the nation are often questioned. but still having one nationality shows the goverment of you utmost loyalty and dedication to that country. Having someone that have a chinesse citizenship and an indonesian citizenhip, will in no dount raise suspicion.
No indonesia does not need ethnic chinese to sustain the economy, What Indonesia need is capital, not a distinct ethnic group. There are other people, black, yellow, brown, white, green, that have capital and the need to invest their money. If ethnic chinesse feel that the condition in Indonesia is unberable, then its not a healty to thing to keep rejecting whats one mind want to do. sell the business and leave. The fact is Indonesia is full of resources that other businessman wants to exploit.
“Some Indonesians insist I speak bahasa melayu instead of bahasa belanda. Maybe I should give them your recommendation and point of view?”
yes please do!
“Indonesia never exist,at least not in the form of the present day. Indonesia was consisted of thousands of thousands of islands with each its own sultans. I think Indonesia should be greatful to the dutch since they were the one who have gather all the islands into one big family.
I don’t see people from malukku very proud to be called Indonesians. Instead they want to be called orang malukku same with Aceh, West Papua and the dayaks in Kalimantan.”Yes i understand, its true for most Indonesians. An ambasadorm of indonesia, once told my friends who was trying to learn more about Indonesia, that most people from Indonesia state their province first before saying their Indonesian. Indonesia is a young country, with a diverse range of ethnicty that can be flamed at any time. Which is why creating, some people might even argue forcing, a shared experience to all Indonesian is the way to glue them all under the red and white flag. And the exam results of such experince is through national loyalty and the report card wil given in a green passport with the garuda on it, is deemed necessary. Great country is not born in less than a century, great county is made through a century of strugle (since independent).
Yes your concern about racial discrimination is Indonesia is fully noted. I am embarassed at the amount of racial hatred in Indonesia. Educating and changing such view will be difficult. But then again such racial hatred also exist in other countries, the fact that most Indonesian are poor, made the action of such prejudice more barbaric. If the population have the same form of living standard as they do in the west, the action of prejudice will be much more ‘softer’.
none the less there are Indonesian out there who are trying to make this country a better place. -
Way to go kiwibali. Those arochinqies need some reality checks, they’re not as indispensable as they like to think about themselves. Beside, they’ve always been bitching about leaving indonesia, but until now, they’re still here, doing their usual thing: usurping. So…. Btw, I’ve seen people like that. Such a loser.
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@Wandi
it seems that you have made up your mind not to have anything to do with Indonesia. fair enough no good in forcing someone.Yea, that makes me wondering about their motives (drago and wandi). They just keep coming back with their annoying high-pitched (almost squeaking) voice, bitching around about indonesian people, and moaning about the death of tio / tia / prima / primo / whatever in 1998 (which might only be a product of their imagination … next time try imagining sex, at least it makes you feel better, instead of bitter).
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Lairedion says:
Wandi,
You’re talking rubbish. I have been living in Holland for over 15 years in various stints but Indonesians are viewed positively here. We blend well with the Dutch. We speak Indonesian/regional languages at home and with our friends to keep our own culture alive but outside and in society we do as the Dutch do. There are no Indonesian neighbourhoods in Holland. We are too diverse and too small in numbers. In our network we have Javanese, Sundanese, Minang, Melayu, Manadonese, Madurese and also Chinese friends but we are all Indonesian living in the West. We are no troublemakers like the Moroccans and Antillians.
The Moluccans are a different story. They are former KNIL soldiers and their families. They opted to move to Holland temporarily with hope the Dutch would help them to establish the RMS (Republik Maluku Selatan) in turn to their oath and loyalty towards the Dutch crown. The Dutch fired them from the KNIL the moment they set foot on Dutch soil. They stayed together in their own distinctive communities while keeping their hopes live to return to a free RMS, of course they don’t want to be regarded as Indonesians.
kiwibali,
Great comment, cheers!
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Lanang says:
barry prima,
They cant be true christians either,doesnt stop mass conversions to chrisitanity (its a trend).
Reminds me of a phrase I once heard, Agama bukan MLM, meskipun MLM bisa menjadi agama. One thing I do admire from their method though, they know where the sheeps and the sheeps-to-be are, taking aim on that particular area only, and they’re very cautious of rebels ready to distort their ways of mechanism.
The indonesian chinese have the greatest cultural identity crisis i have seen anywhere in the world.
Yes, perhaps that’s why Indo-Chinese tend to be perceived being overly defensive and competitive, even to a point where they exclude themselves from others, they’re also perceived to be very materialistically competitive, which is not Indonesia-like. Indonesia has always been more about mangan ora mangan asal ngumpul. Not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing though.
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Correction.
Yes, perhaps that’s why Indo-Chinese tend to be perceived being overly defensive and competitive, even to a point..
Yes, perhaps that’s why Indo-Chinese tend to be perceived being overly defensive and conservative, even to a point..
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@kiwibali,
“it seems that you have made up your mind not to have anything to do with Indonesia. fair enough no good in forcing someone”
Firstable, thx for the recognition of me as part of indonesia but it is way too late now. When I grew up I consider myself Indonesian. I never made distinctions. We get along with indians, javaneses and bataks. Time flew, we got older and more mature. I suddenly faced the different attitude of the people in my neighbourhood. Signals I got from some people, signals I never put attention at when I was a kid. Things as cina babi etc make you wondering why you get insulted and others not. So I grew up, searched my roots and found it. The thing is no matter what, race matters especially when you are the minority in a society.
No matter what kind of policy the government put in indonesia we all know chineses indonesian will still treat as second class, lower than the people from atjech or papuah or maluku. Just read the report of the bad treatment towards the ethnic chineseshttp://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,CHRON,IDN,,469f389bc,0.html
“Having someone that have a chinesse citizenship and an indonesian citizenhip, will in no dount raise suspicion”
Well in case you don’t know it yet. Despite having the garuda passport, the ethnic chineses still take the heat. I am sure you know of the event of may 1998? Or the earlier events of anti china riots after the independence?
Furthermore in holland I sometimes hang out with indonesians who mostly came from bandung with exception of orang ambon. They all are dual citizen! Most of them don’t want to be buried in holland. They just work here and want retire in indonesia and die there. Some have bought real estate to make money. It is all possible since holland allow dual citizenship. Most of them also asked me when I return to indonesia. I just only said:”I had my portion of indonesia”. They just shook their heads and now and then they keep asking me the same question about returning. They just don’t get it. Most can’t imagine how it is being chineses in indonesia. Sure there are some area or opportunity that could make us all rich or at least earn us enough money to give our kids good education, food on table. But all that economic advantages perish when now and then anti chineses riots took place. Seeing your hard built shops burning and seeing your people get beaten by random pribumis because they just being chineses did something to me. I am sure I am not the only one who feel like this. It is what we called pride. Somewhere in me the chineses pride awakened and I said to myself: enough! I am not going to take this shit anymore. So after my study I traveled around the world, especially to places where there are chineses communities like San francisco, malaysia, thailand, Vancouver, and of course hong kong and shang hai in China. The most exciting thing is maybe the feeling of chineses nationalism I felt in hong kong and shang hai now china is rising as world power. You see the world becomes smaller and now race issue matter. Take for instance turks in germany: the president of Turkiye condemned the attempt of the german government to make turks 100% german, same with the morocco people: their king tried to prevent any morocco people integrate 100% in dutch society. Nationalism among chineses all over the world was well shown during the olympic torch routes. In hong kong, san franciso and shang hai where I met young nationalist business elite and young politicians is the turning point in my life. Those days felt as if I was coming home.
I am not even sure why I tell you all this. as a matter of fact as the name of the website suggest, it is an indonesian matters. Since I have closed the indonesian chapter long time ago, I am wondering what am I doing here? I came this website by accident a few months ago and get curious about the situation in indonesia. That’s all folks.
“If ethnic chinesse feel that the condition in Indonesia is unberable, then its not a healty to thing to keep rejecting whats one mind want to do. sell the business and leave. The fact is Indonesia is full of resources that other businessman wants to exploit
As a matter of fact we did like other thousands of chineses indonesians who leave indonesia yearly. If you read the previous comments then you knew, we emigrated to Taiwan. We sold our properties in 1990 and 1991. I also encourage other chineses to leave as soon they can afford it. One might never know when the sharia law will be insert in the most populous muslim country in the world. And one doesn’t know it either when the next riot against chineses will occur in indonesia. So pls leave all chineses indonesians. The problem is the poor chineses who can’t afford to leave. I am more worried with the chineses in remote places like in sulawesi. That is the only place we have never been to.
Further I have nothing to add to the rest of your point of view.
@diego,
I bet you still think the atrocities of may 1998 and all that the indonesians committed after the the independence are fairytale made by the insane chineses. Pls don’t be awake. Stay in your ideal world. I don’t want to ruin your dreams.
Diego, I am fed up with sex. I had too much sex with chineses in usa, vancouver canada to taiwaneses, hong kongnese and a few white women. The reason I can date with different race of women is because I don’t have the typical look of chineses indonesians. People abroad always thought I am half white which isn’t the case.
Btw, I have seen people like you. Only talking but don’t add anything. The chineses indonesian at least they do something to improve their situation. You look more like preman in the time I was in indonesia. Look always for the chineses in the street for extortion. Give my best regards to the family of suharto. I know you love them so much even when they suck you dry and they cant do harm in your eyes.
@Lairedion,
“We are too diverse and too small in numbers”
400.000 of indonesians is not much? Where have you lived? In village? Semi city or the big city? There are Indonesian neighbourhoods in Holland but it is so small (it is a community so small as let say street name to other street name) I admit it is not so big in comparison with the antillen community in the big cities like amsterdam , den helder and rotterdam or the turks/morocco community in amsterdam and den hague.
“You’re talking rubbish. I have been living in Holland for over 15 years in various stints but Indonesians are viewed positively here”
When I wrote they weren’t?
Further, it is true what you wrote about the moluku people. Nothing to add here.
Again I want to emphasize that you all really need to vote on anti chineses islamic-or nationalic political party. It would serve our (common) vision. When the hell break out again, PRC and ROC government couldn’t refuse and have to accept the millions of (poor) chineses indonesians, especially under the pressure of the nationalistic chineses who is rising nowadays. Communism is history in china, only the communist government doesn’t realise it.
Since assimilations is the flagship of Aluang Anak Bayang, I really need to know something. In Penang in malaysia I met chineses who claimed that there are a lot of black african immigrants in Borneo kalimantan. They came in with boats and settle there. The chineses malaysian knew this since some do business with the woods factories in kalimantan. Is this true and if it so, what are you going to do with the black africans? Force them to assimilate with the pribumis?
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One thing I do admire from their method though, they know where the sheeps and the sheeps-to-be are, taking aim on that particular area only, and they’re very cautious of rebels ready to distort their ways of mechanism.
Anyhow, this applies in general, whether Aluang Anak Bayang’s typical Indo-Chinese is a drug warlord, a Mangga Dua shop encik or a real estate tycoon. Question is, who are the sheeps? Pribumis. Vain, gullible pribumis. Who’s to blame?
wandi,
No matter what kind of policy the government put in indonesia we all know chineses indonesian will still treat as second class, lower than the people from atjech or papuah or maluku.
Not true. Well, it is true if you assume your class is higher than everyone else.
Indo-Chinese are Indonesians, not more and not less, I’d disagree to anyone that says otherwise. And along with whatever stereotype they are imposing on themselves, they’d still be a major part of Indonesia’s (unity in) diversity. It’s a shame that this nation can’t have more So Hoek Gie, and end up having the likes of Eka Tjipta Widjaja — bombarding a village with napalm just for the sake of corporate profit.
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Wandi nice meeting you too.
they’re not as indispensable as they like to think about themselves
How about people that controls over 80% of the overall economy, is that dipensable?
It is pointless to tell you to speak some sense because you have no cents at all when you say
Yea, that makes me wondering about their motives (drago and wandi). They just keep coming back with their annoying high-pitched (almost squeaking) voice, bitching around about indonesian people, and moaning about the death
And you could continue with your annoying high-pitched (almost squeaking) voice, bitching around about indonesian Chinese people
People like won’t make the world stop and I suppose there are many like you who thinks this way and that reflects the non improvement of Indonesians like you.
You are always there when time stood still.
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Draggie wrote:
they’re not as indispensable as they like to think about themselves
How about people that controls over 80% of the overall economy, is that dipensable?
Lanang wrote:
No matter what kind of policy the government put in indonesia we all know chineses indonesian will still treat as second class, lower than the people from atjech or papuah or maluku.
Not true. Well, it is true if you assume your class is higher than everyone else.
Lanang nailed it perfectly. As it is so obvious in the tones of the comments coming from wandi / draggie, some of them, some of the indo-chineses haven’t learned anything at all. They’re still hiding behind the cliche “you stupid lazy pri hate us because you’re jealous of our economic success” self-defence. When wandi said: “so I searched my roots…”, I’d say “search further”, and take note of what Aluang and Kiwibali told us “who took side with the oppressor for economic advantage” in the past. Yes, it’s in the past. But at least you should reflect on it, acknowledge it (I’m not patronizing here), and try to find ways to improve ourselves and the situation…, instead of repeating the shallow conclusion “you hate us because’re we’re rich (thus superiors), you poor prithugs”.
You know what wandi, you’ve closed your indonesian chapter. Good for you. So, move on, and don’t come back unless you have anything useful to say. Your insulting indonesian people and mentioning “chinese worldwide rise to power” thingy wouldn’t help anyone, except maybe yourself (to satisfy your selfish ego). In fact, it can cause a setback. I guess the situation between chinese and pri in indonesia is getting better since the last couple of years, sans people like you.
When you think I hate chinese / racist, well, you have the right to think what you like. But I’m not. I lived in shanghai before for a year, I made friends with people there, etc. Interestingly, seldom I met such an annoying snob like you there. Most are helpful and humble. I don’t know, maybe the problem was with the way you were raised in Indonesia, that makes you such an unlikeable person.
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wandi said:
400.000 of indonesians is not much? Where have you lived?
I have been living in The Hague so I’m well aware of the local Indo community.
You are including the Indo (Eurasian) community, I guess. Well, technically they aren’t Indonesians. Most of them are descendants from a white colonial man and an indigenous Indonesian woman and have European family names. Most of them never had Indonesian citizenship. These Indo’s clustered together in the beginning in the 50’s but now there are widespread and blended with the Dutch.
There are Indonesian neighbourhoods in Holland but it is so small (it is a community so small as let say street name to other street name)
Most big cities have street named after various Indonesian islands but you won’t find a lot of Indo or Indonesian people living there, at least not in the way one can state there are Indonesian neighbourhoods.
“You’re talking rubbish. I have been living in Holland for over 15 years in various stints but Indonesians are viewed positively here”
When I wrote they weren’t?
Well, you were suggesting it here:
I know what indos are called here in holland, but I just don’t bother to lower myself to his level. I just feel to good to do that.
You said earlier:
Furthermore in holland I sometimes hang out with indonesians who mostly came from bandung with exception of orang ambon. They all are dual citizen! Most of them don’t want to be buried in holland. They just work here and want retire in indonesia and die there. Some have bought real estate to make money. It is all possible since holland allow dual citizenship.
Not true. Holland allows but Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship with the exception to children under 18 born from one Indonesian parent. Before 18 they must choose. Again I think you spend too much time with Indo’s who are not, I repeat, are not Indonesian but regular Dutch citizens with some Indonesian blood.
Comment on “Islam and Chinese”.
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Aluang you avowed javanesism is so obviously a mask that barely concelas to the trained eye a hugh inferiority complex ,not only in the face of the white man but the chinese.At least in your inferiority complex,you are being javanese.!
You deny the reality of who you are,so vociferously,it is apparent that you are will only come back to you.YOU ARE A MUSLIM,and you will come back to the fold of islam before you die,i can bet my life on it.There are plenty of Javanese like you ,who have come back with their tails between their bowed legs.
You continue to espouse an ignorant version of islam,if only to show you superiority,but expose only your own ignorance of true Deen,Islamic or otherwise.
Look in the mirror with your kata hati,and you will see there the promise you made ,in the Alam Arwah.Do not deny the signs in your own soul,for indeed you will be one of the transgressors
Chinese histories had not one single war fought in the name of any God.
But plenty of wars and bloodshed none the less.Remember this is the country where millions of people were killed to build a wall.
In terms of controling the minds of its citizens,and forcing them into certain behaviours,the muslims have got nothing on the chinese.They dont need a god,thats how good they are.
In any case Buddhism,taoism and confucianism,have historically been in an ideological struggle for a long part ofthe history of china.Depending on who was in power,at varying points of history,one of the three has been banned by followers of the other.In the 20th century they were all banned,for most intents and purposes.
If youre not fighting for a god,youre fighting against the idea of one,(or many for that matter),which is a large the history of modern china.
Different manifestations of the same phenomena or cause and effect.No different from the history of Islam.
It is unimaginable that a Chinese would be religiously indoctrinated, kill a kaffir and shout ‘Allahu akhbar’
Youre right theyre too busy,working for the traids,or the secret police,keeping the majority of their people under the grip of terror.
Youre romaticised view of the chinese does not reflect the reality of living in the chinese community.The chinese are some ofthe most unhappy people in the world,despite their outward wealth in indonesia. They just just keep problems well hidden.
Speaking of Nikah Mut’ah, there are so many single mothers ending up in brothels to make end meet after this Allah-sanctioned prostitution contract expired.
Forgetting quite conveniently that the chinese introduced organised prostituation to South East Asia,not the arabs,expecially in thailand.Although i dont dispute that arabs do come to Indonesia for sex tourism,but so do the koreans,japanese and many others.
All the Chinese have to do is to offer roasted pork and birds, teas, joss sticks and incenses to keep God happy in return for lasting peace, prosperity, etc.
Is that why Chinese have had a long history of famine,slavery,prositituation,infacticide,foot binding,child and forced marriage and abject povery,it is only coming out of now,and again only in certain sectors of society.
So the fault Is not Allah,its argubaly the gods of the underworld.Different manifestations of the same phenomena or cause and effect.
Different diety/ies same phenomenon.Your rational mind would call them both Hokus Pokus
Most of the chinese should be very grateful to Indonesia,just remind them of how lucky they are that they did not grow up in 20th vcentury china,under the gang of four!
A single bomb blast by Muslim jihadis in China will be ‘bye bye Islam’ forever in China.
Wishful thinking,you dont have much of a handle of islamic sepratist battles in parts of china right now,plenty of bombs have gone offf and historically,atlhough it is little known,the chinese muslims risked complete annhialtion to preseve their identity.
Islam will never die,not even in China.
I am not opposed to any religion as long as it doesn’t impose their belief on others.
Thas the dumberst thing i ever heard,a complete lack of comprehension of not religion but ideology.Any ideology by its very nature has to be imparted to others and at some level becomes imposed,consciously,forcefully or unconsciously and subtlely.
Life only exist due to the constant friction/constant struggle beteween opposing forces.
Thats a bit of chinese wisdom for you!
Chinese will never be MuslimHave you ever wondered why Chinese can be Christian, Buddhist, Animism, but avoided Islam?
They cant be true christians either,doesnt stop mass conversions to chrisitanity (its a trend).
It is a matter of finding an islam that conforms to chinese sensibilities,which the chinese muslims have managed to do,but chinese in Indonesia havent.They can give up wine and pork for Buddha,so at least some of them will do it for Allah.It is a matter of time and matter of Muslims showing a fit example.Many Chinese realise that ridiculous of worshiping the kitchen god in a world where it is becoming necessary to assume a global identity.
Their civilisation was far more advance with great thinkers like Confucius and Lao Tze, long before Allah revealed the Al-Quran to Mohammad (saw) in some far away unknown desert.
Good point..even if you failt to see the irony that you could be quoting this from the quran as it says each nation was sent messangers.(Zhuk kifl) and Lao Tzu (Lut,if you dont believe me,try reading the story of lut as a metaphysical treaty of yin and yang dynmics)were similiar to Muhammed in their ways.
Confucius bought the sharia,lao tzu the tariqah.Confucians are obsessed about what their neighbours do ,in the same way as sharia fanatics are.Lao Tzu was a Sufi who was a staunch monotheist..He can be called the greatest critic of chinese superstition,. Of course as the quran explains they just turned his unitartian world view into another set of god and godess.
You point about how Chinese do not need Islam due to heir own philopshical heritage ,also shows your ignorance of the chinese understanding in Indonesia of theiur own heritage.You know alot of chinese in Indo dont even know that Kongfuchu was a historical figure?Chinese understanding of their own religous culture in Indonesia comes mostly from transalations of chinese text from english.(we can thank suharto for that,as well as the fact that most chinese indonesians are of peasant stock)The indonesian chinese have the greatest cultural identity crisis i have seen anywhere in the world.When a staunch totok ancestor worshipping,chinese dialect speaking ,indochinese goes to Taiwan or china,he feels himself very much an outsider!