Valentine’s Day

Feb 14th, 2007, in News, by

Not everyone is in love with Valentine’s Day.

A number of small demonstrations took place in a few cities on Java, in which Indonesians were urged to reject the celebration of St. Valentine’s Day as an alien, unislamic practise.

In Bandung, West Java, as our friend Orgindo noted, about 60 university students conducted a “long march” along the main roads of the town, carrying banners on which were written such slogans as:

  • The times today are like those of pre-Islamic days.
    (Hari Gini Masih Berbudaya Jahiliah)
  • Eradicate all forms of infidel culture.
    Buang Habis Segala Bentuk Budaya Kufur

Spokesman Wisnu Sudibyo said St. Valentine’s Day was a part of western secular culture which Indonesia ought not to have anything to do with. detik

In Surabaya, East Java, about 400 of the youngsters at the Muhammadiyah 4 primary school in the suburb of Pucang staged a one-hour protest against Valentine’s Day. Speeches were made and posters displayed. Some of the latter read:

  • Valentine’s Day No Way.
  • Stop Valentine’s Day.
  • Beware of the Valentine’s Day Virus.
    (Waspadai Virus Valentine’s Day)
  • Smart People Reject Valentine’s Day.
    (Orang Cerdas Tolak Valentine’s Day) rileks
  • The Valentine’s Day Virus is Worse than Bird Flu?! suarasurabaya

Valentine's Day Demo
Valentine’s Day Demonstration at a primary school in Surabaya.

One young 5th grader, Rizky Dwi, said he rejected the great romantic day because it was synonymous with giving one’s girlfriend flowers, and then parties and sex could follow. One should show love every day of the year, he said, not just on Valentine’s Day.

Edi Susanto, a teacher at the school, said the event had been organised because the staff were worried about the negative effect of Valentine’s Day on young people. St. Valentine’s Day was opposed to Islam, he said, because it allowed for the celebration of love between persons of the opposite sex in inappropriate ways. rileks

Elsewhere in Surabaya the Barisan Muda PAN, a youth political group, handed out flowers to passers-by on a busy road, hoping to get the message across that Valentine’s Day should be celebrated in a restrained, moral way, without sex and drugs. suarasurabaya

And in Cirebon, West Java, a number of students and teachers of the Widya Utama senior high school carried out a “sweeping” operation in the classrooms of the school. They searched for symbols and tell-tale signs of the celebration of Lovers’ Day, such as flowers, as a signal of their rejection of the culture of Valentine’s.

The search teams entered every classroom and ordered students present to leave the room while a search was conducted. Bags and desks were gone through, and dozens of items were confiscated, such as dolls and other knick knacks associated with the evil day.

One of the ringleaders of the operation, Erlandan Dwi, said Valentine’s was not part of eastern/Asian culture, and not of any educational value.

A teacher, Dedi Nurjaman, said the search was to show the school did not agree with the Valentine’s tradition. He added that they were also looking for drugs. tempo


62 Comments on “Valentine’s Day”

  1. Andrew says:

    1ndra said:

    And you judged teachers as fools, even they know better than you, even they’re your former teacher, do you? They give them education about the truth about Valentine Day. Is it called poisoning?

    If they are fools, then they are fools. I had more than one SD and SMP teachers who were narrow minded and shortsighted, who did not seek to expand their knowledge, and refuse to continuously educate themselves, yet refuse to admit when they are wrong.

    And yes, those teachers in this story, they are poisoning the students. Lucky my children don’t have to learn from people like them.

    My point is, it is up to you if you don’t want to participate or celebrate or whatever you call it, but spreading wrong information is just plain imbecile.

  2. Orgindo says:

    Wah, didn’t notice that they post my blog here. So happy! LOL

    Anyway,

    If Muslims celebrate valentine day, it means they celebrated st valentine, who died for Christ because Christianization.

    Which means Muslim should go to work on Christmas day and New Year Eve’s! After all it is not Muslim’s celebration. I dare those who oppose Valentine day just because it is other day, to do that. Because I believe in even taking holiday at those time is just the same as celebrating it. Or maybe you can do what is happening in middle east? Take holiday Friday. and Work at sunday.

    And you judged teachers as fools, even they know better than you, even they’re your former teacher, do you? They give them education about the truth about Valentine Day. Is it called poisoning?

    Looking from how they do it, I called it poisoning. Don’t you agree that there is a better way?

    And finally If you want to talk about copying Christian and even Jewish Traditions how about these ones:

    I wouldn’t call it copying, it is just because they come from the same root.

    You seem too defend others and ignored your own brothers and religion. You’re brainwashed.

    Who is brainwashed here? I prefer to use the term enlightenment.

    I am not trying to corner anybody here, but this discussion is for people who are willing to expand their knowledge and try to see other people’s point of view. When you keep standing on where you are, you won’t learn anything, and other people won’t understand you either. Step out of the box and try to see things from outside. or maybe people are just afraid to face the truth? Or maybe you are too comfortable there. If that is the case, go back to traditional media.. (newspaper, my friend). Oh ya, thats why I call it enlightenment.

    😉
    Peace

    ___________

    Oh ya, can someone enlightened me? What is a hadith?

    But strangely enough you are willing to follow manmade fabrications called Hadith?

  3. Julita says:

    Mohammed Khafi. Two quotes from Voltaire seem very appropriate in this case:

    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

    Valentines Day is all about the purest of universal emotions, Love, the fact that these teachers try to connect it with sex, drugs and unislamic practices, shows their ignorance. I worries me more though, that they are trying to brainwash the children. Instead of educating them as to the good aspects of western culture, they are trying to poison their minds, without being able to understand others cultures we will never fully appreciate our own. Do these fools realise that the culture that they are promoting is also not ours, it is also an alien culture?

    Thank you, Mohammed Khafi for making people understand and appreciate Western Culture. All nation all races have their good custom, tradition and culture, though why bad-mouthing them. They are not imposing it to anybody.

    fools from the chains they revere.

    This is what we call martyrs, dying for their Faith. The reward is nothing, nothing else as others imagined, it is eternal life with God their Creator.

    Indra:

    Valentine’s Day is Christian’s day used to memorize priest St Valentine (Santo Valentinus), in that day in emperor Rome Claudius II time, the priest is doing Christianization and captured then jailed and tortured, inside in the jail he still doing Christianization to prisoners, the emperor knew it, then the priest be killed in 14 Feb 270. Before he died, he wrote a love letter to a jail employee’s daughter who he fell in love with, ended with signature ‘From your Valentine’.
    Christians regard him died because of his love to Christ and make Valentine as Christian’s symbol as love between Christ and Christians. And wrapped by modification with love theme in centuries.

    Sorry Indra about the above, it is either you didn’t understand what you read or you get a bad source. I appreciate very much if you can share with me the source. In none of the many sources I read is the one you add “Before he died, he wrote a love letter to a jail employee’s daughter who he fell in love with, ended with signature ‘From your Valentine'”. This is all screwed up ‘love letter’ ’employee’s daughter’ ‘he fell in love with'” very sad indeed to twist (beautiful, good) ideas around.

    Do you know why they were jailed? They did not want to denounce their Faith. Against Claudius they kept blessing young people who wanted to get married. They were old religious, a bishop, a priest. They were going to be beheaded, they were to meet their last judgment. Were they so stupid to spoil what they believe in? In that case just denounce their Faith and get married.

    I quote from two websites and it sounds entirely different than yours.

    [edit] In the Golden Legend.
    The Legenda Aurea of Jacobus de Voragine, compiled about 1260 and one of the most-read books of the High Middle Ages, gives sufficient details of the saints and for each day of the liturgical year to inspire a homily on each occasion. The very brief vita of St Valentine has him refusing to deny Christ before the “Emperor Claudius”[14] in the year 280. Before his head was cut off, this Valentine restored sight and hearing to the daughter of his jailer. Jacobus makes a play with the etymology of “Valentine”, “as containing valour”.

    The 14th was also a designated a feast day (until 1969, when it was dropped from the Roman Catholic calendar) to honor two Christian saints (at least one named Saint Valentine) martyred by the Roman Emperor Claudius II Gothicus. There is a little bit of love stuff in this part, though, the reason Saint Valentine was killed (beheaded, actually) was that he continued to marry young couples even though Claudius forbade it. Apparently Claudius thought that married soldiers weren’t as good as single soldiers.

  4. Ali says:

    1ndra, don’t you realize you’re using Christian calendar to count your day, month, and year? that you’re adhering to Christian weekdays and weekend? how about the technology gadget you use, wear, watch, listen to, or drive, those are all products of either western or infidel civilization. In fact you might be eating rice grown by infidels and wearing clothes made by them, too. If you want to prove yourself to be consistent, don’t do all of the above – wear treebark, ride a camel, and don’t reply to this, because you’re laying your fingers on infidel keyboard. Haram, no?

  5. Orgindo says:

    I was just afraid that one day they will think that the entire internet community is against them and declare internet as haram.

    When it happens, oh well, we will be talking to ourselves. sad ending. 🙁

  6. Ihaknt says:

    Orgindo, we’re not that bad. 😉

  7. 1ndra says:

    1ndra, don’t you realize you’re using Christian calendar to count your day, month, and year? that you’re adhering to Christian weekdays and weekend? how about the technology gadget you use, wear, watch, listen to, or drive, those are all products of either western or infidel civilization. In fact you might be eating rice grown by infidels and wearing clothes made by them, too. If you want to prove yourself to be consistent, don’t do all of the above – wear treebark, ride a camel, and don’t reply to this, because you’re laying your fingers on infidel keyboard. Haram, no?

    Yeah, and mostly western use some Muslim economical science to sell, like Ibnu Khaldun one.
    And I have read in my younger days, many Muslims scientist in the older days who their science adopted by western and develop it.

    About the calendar there’re differences and the some are same.
    The Hijriyah based on qamariyah, contain 12 month based on QS At Taubah 36 “Sesungguhnya bilangan bulan disisi Allah ada dua belas, dalam ketetapan Allah pada waktu Dia menciptakan langit dan bumi…”
    Example, days there’re same 7 days, and do you know the days?
    Begining with Ahad (mean first/the begining) or Minggu, Isnain (Dua) or Senin, Tsulatsa/Selasa, Arba’a/Rabu, Khamis/Kamis, Jumu’ah/Jumat and Sabtu.

    Back to the issues….

    Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge, Valentines day has not been an official church holiday since 1969, and have never suggested that Muslims should celebrate the holiday, read my post again.

    Lacking knowledge? If lack knowledge then I don’t debate V Day for Muslim, brother.
    It might be before 1969. But still its a religious holiday, isnt it?
    It’s removed because the church want to pare down the number of saint days however it’s still marked by some local communities throughout the world.
    So? It’s still called religion holiday.

    And finally If you want to talk about copying Christian and even Jewish Traditions how about these ones:

    Hijab
    Death for Apostates
    Stoning to death for Adulterers
    Circumcision
    Food Restrictions
    Restrictions on women praying during their Periods
    Beards for Men
    The use of the word “Ameen” during prayers
    Religious scripts on walls and houses and lucky charms
    Zakat as a religious Tithe

    It must be a special edition, because none of them exist in Al Quran

    Food restriction (Al-Maidah 3)
    Zakat (Al-Baqarah 43, Al-Baqarah 277, Adz Dzariyaat 19)

    You said none?
    About the other, orgindo is right, its came from the same root. Now I ask you, who is Jews, and who sent to them a prophet and who sent Muhammad saw?

    Brainwashed? I don’t think so, if that was the case I would be following your way like the rest of the cattle, not standing with my few friends defending faith and freedom of choice.

    Now you called other Muslims who advised not to celebrate other religion holiday because it’s bid’ah and haram as cattle? May Allah forgive you for your lacking of Ukhuwah Islamiyah and like Hassan said, no Amar Ma’ruf Nahi Munkar.
    And about the teacher, they have responbility to teach, teach the truth about valentine day and you called that as poisoning and fool.
    Well based on your opinions, I’m just another fool and poisoning, at least I understand my first name, Muhammad.

  8. Ihaknt says:

    I have enjoyed reading this particular one topic.

    but 1ndra

    And about the teacher, they have responbility to teach, teach the truth about valentine day and you called that as poisoning and fool”¦

    The teachers are not teaching the kids the truth. They teach them what they THINK what it is. The point is, it’s not related to sex and drugs. What they are telling these kids are not correct. They can tell the kids that it came from a Christian teaching and that it is advised not to follow it. But not telling them it’s related to sex and drugs. That’s a lie. There are other ways to teach kids, but telling them lies?

  9. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Julita,

    The quote from Voltaire about fools and their chains was directed at the teachers and their narrow minded, bigoted view of life.

    1ndra,

    The food restrictions I am talking about are not the ones mentioned in Al Quran, they are the other manmade ones in Hadith, such as not eating shark meat, not eating eel, crab, shrimp etc they are all from Old Testament Scriptures, What about all the other things on the list? Are you still searching?

    If they all come from the same root, why do you not have more respect for Jews and Christians, if their scriptures are from the same God then theoretically you should also follow all their religious practices unless specifically told not to in Al Quran? But of course you will probably say that their scriptures are corrupted won’t you? Well if they are corrupted why do you still follow some of them instead of taking your instructions only from Al Quran, which Allah says is complete perfect and fully detailed?

    You see 1ndra I do understand my name and like The Prophet I will not follow anything unless it comes from God, The Prophet was warned by God not to teach anything other than Al Quran, if he did he could expect a severe punishment, Hadith and Sunnah are not from Allah or Al Quran, they are manmade fabrications. Follow them at your own risk! It is your own soul that you are gambling with, eternity is a long time, don’t forget that.

  10. 1ndra says:

    And finally If you want to talk about copying Christian and even Jewish Traditions how about these ones:

    The food restrictions I am talking about are not the ones mentioned in Al Quran, they are the other manmade ones in Hadith, such as not eating shark meat, not eating eel, crab, shrimp etc they are all from Old Testament Scriptures,

    Tell me before, so I don’t need to search because I only have Quran.

    What about all the other things on the list? Are you still searching?

    I’m not searching again because of this :

    It must be a special edition, because none of them exist in Al Quran

    You said that none of them in Quran, even I give one is enough to remind you that its exist in Quran but then you said in hadith, you know if anything listed in Quran then it should be in hadith.

    If they all come from the same root, why do you not have more respect for Jews and Christians, if their scriptures are from the same God then theoretically you should also follow all their religious practices unless specifically told not to in Al Quran? But of course you will probably say that their scriptures are corrupted won’t you? Well if they are corrupted why do you still follow some of them instead of taking your instructions only from Al Quran, which Allah says is complete perfect and fully detailed?

    Tell me what are them?

    You see 1ndra I do understand my name and like The Prophet I will not follow anything unless it comes from God, The Prophet was warned by God not to teach anything other than Al Quran, if he did he could expect a severe punishment, Hadith and Sunnah are not from Allah or Al Quran, they are manmade fabrications. Follow them at your own risk! It is your own soul that you are gambling with, eternity is a long time, don’t forget that.

    And I do. See QS Al Hasyr 7, Al-Ahzab 21, An Nisa 80.
    We should follow the right hadith after the Quran. The hadith position is the second. If not listed in Quran then dont follow hadith.
    Like shalat, do you know how to do shalat if you only read Quran? Never.
    That why Hadith came : ‘Shalatlah kamu sebagaimana kalian melihat aku shalat’ (HR Bukhari).
    If no people follow hadith then there no shalat 5 waktu and other shalat sunnah like tahajud fajar dhuha ghaib and many others, confuse how to select imam shalat, masbuk and many other related to shalat hadith.

    So, don’t follow the hadith if it not listed in Quran. That’s the point.

  11. Orgindo says:

    nah, this is where i get lost…

  12. Mohammed Khafi says:

    1ndra you said:

    Like shalat, do you know how to do shalat if you only read Quran?

    Well you could look her for an explanation: Quranic Sholat.

    So, dont follow the hadith if it not listed in Quran. Thats the point.

    Exactly! But as Al Quran is the critierion, and Hadith should not be followed unless it is in Al Quran, then why have Hadith in the first place?

    So where does that put the additional dietary restrictions, and all the other things I listed, plus all the thousand of other laws, rules and regulations which I did not list which come from Hadith which also are not mentioned in Al Quran?

    Peace

  13. 1ndra says:

    Exactly! But as Al Quran is the critierion, and Hadith should not be followed unless it is in Al Quran, then why have Hadith in the first place?

    Who placed it in the first place? Am I?

    So where does that put the additional dietary restrictions, and all the other things I listed, plus all the thousand of other laws, rules and regulations which I did not list which come from Hadith which also are not mentioned in Al Quran?

    Well, in my opinion its Rasulullah knowledge and it’s a choice to follow it or not, but it’s very important to follow (See the Quran verses I mentioned).
    About diet, well do you know how many diets are there nowadays, and people are following that. Like Atkins diet, Jenny Craig diet, Ultraslim diet, Danish diet, high protein low carb diet, low fat low carb diet, mayo diet and so many other diets out there then is it wrong if there’s a diet list in hadith?:)

    About shalat, I can’t say anything about it, but I’ll follow the common shalat, 5 times. Yes it’s a 3 times shalat plus 2 and don’t forget to add other shalats if you wish, are you ever did a 15 rakaat in shubuh time? It’s far better and worthy to pray more isn’t it?
    And is it sin if shalat 5 times a day? And if you answer yes, then you directly judge Rasulullah as sinner and deny the verses I mentioned above because Allah didn’t warn Rasulullah’s shalat.

    But by the way, good topic brother.

  14. Ihaknt says:

    MK, I missed you. You argue well! GO MK!

  15. Rambutan says:

    Happy Valentine’s Day by the way.

  16. Mohammed Khafi says:

    1ndra,

    My apologies for the poor use of English, the phrase ” Then why have it in the first place?” doesn’t refer to it’s position or priority, it just means “why does it exist?”

    Regarding Rasulullah knowledge, how do you guarantee that the Hadith which you follow is his knowledge and not just lies made up by men who are using The Prophets name? Allah guarantees Al Quran, he says that nothing can change it, nothing can approach it from in front or behind. He has never given that guarantee for anything else.

    Just using logic for a little while, Bukhari is reported to have collected 600000 Hadith, if we assume that he must have checked the chain of narration for each of these Hadith before accepting them or rejecting them, and we gave him 40 minutes to do it for each one. (bearing in mind that an Islamic University Graduate I consulted on Hadith says that it takes him up to 3 months for checking just one Hadith even with computers and libraries of books at his disposal) That would mean Bukhari would have to have worked without break, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, 365 days per year, for 45 1/2 years, as he died at age 60 he would have needed to have started his momentous work at age 14 1/2 and worked continuously without praying, eating, sleeping, going to the toilet etc for the rest of his life.

    Hadith, Truth or Fiction? You make up your own mind.

    Peace

  17. 1ndra says:

    Regarding Rasulullah knowledge, how do you guarantee that the Hadith which you follow is his knowledge and not just lies made up by men who are using The Prophets name? Allah guarantees Al Quran, he says that nothing can change it, nothing can approach it from in front or behind. He has never given that guarantee for anything else.

    Nah, that’s need work, to select the real hadith and destroy the fake.
    Hadith is real, because Rasulullah could speak, is he? And he wouldn’t speak only Quran but it implementation too.

    You know, there’re bunch Rasulullah book of view/biography out there about his attitude and speaks, those books are not just came from Islam, and he got positive and good review.
    I’ve read them somewhere but sadly I’ve forget the links.

  18. Mohammed Khafi says:

    1ndra,

    I am quite well aware that there are many books and autobiographical histories of The Prophet out there, but do you really want to take religious guidance from them, religious guidance comes from Al Quran and from Allah, not from recollections and stories from ordinary men.

    All the stories of The Prophet being a paedophile, sex manic, blood thirsty murderer of women and children, come from Hadith, do you really want to accept books that include these sorts of stories about the Prophet?

    Just one other thing before you bury your head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich, are you sure that you are not a politician, government official, or civil servant? Because you never answer my questions or illustrations, you always just come back with diversionary tactics to alter the course of the debate.

    Peace

  19. Ali says:

    Happy Chinese New Year to those who celebrate!!

  20. 1ndra says:

    I am quite well aware that there are many books and autobiographical histories of The Prophet out there, but do you really want to take religious guidance from them, religious guidance comes from Al Quran and from Allah, not from recollections and stories from ordinary men.

    Of course no.

    All the stories of The Prophet being a paedophile, sex manic, blood thirsty murderer of women and children, come from Hadith, do you really want to accept books that include these sorts of stories about the Prophet?

    Of course no.

    Just one other thing before you bury your head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich, are you sure that you are not a politician, government official, or civil servant? Because you never answer my questions or illustrations, you always just come back with diversionary tactics to alter the course of the debate.

    I’m just a 24 year old, a near end mahasiswa, who’s looking for real life meaning.
    I just share my view with backing by some tafsir, brother.

  21. Julita says:

    Hasan says:

    I don’t think that ‘giving aid’ is a western culture. Are you saying that the West introduced ‘giving charity’ in this world? And the aid money can’t be considered a culture, either.

    Quoted from the dictionary:

    A culture consists of the ideas, customs, and art that are produced or shared by a particular society.
    A culture is a particular society or civilization, especially one considered in relation to its ideas, its art , and its way of life.

    Christianity is the base of the Western way of life. “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” Is one of the most important commandment in the 10 commandments. This love or charity encompasses many of the other commandments like do not kill, respect your parents etc. etc. As a way of life clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give to the poor help the needy.
    I hope that answer your question. I did no say where it first started, though I am sure it started with the Ten Commandments given to Mozes. Not in the West in the Middle East, isn’t it something!
    ___________

    Indra, yes I am still waiting for your reply in regard to St. Valentine. I know you are very busy answering the others. Though I think you are responsible for the truth what you are posting here. Sorry to say, if you are making up things, not telling the truth it means lying (sorry, I don’t want to use this word) and this is what ‘haram’ is Indra. I will apologize once you give me the right answer.
    Take care!

  22. Mohammed Khafi says:

    1ndra,

    I asked you:

    but do you really want to take religious guidance from them, religious guidance comes from Al Quran and from Allah, not from recollections and stories from ordinary men.

    You answered

    Of course no.

    I also asked you:

    do you really want to accept books that include these sorts of stories about the Prophet?

    Your answer again was:

    Of course no.

    But then you went on to say:

    I just share my view with backing by some tafsir, brother.

    The vast majority of Tafsir is based on the books above which you have just said no to, the Hadith books.

    I still think you should consider a career in Politics, or government though! 😉

    Peace

  23. 1ndra says:

    The vast majority of Tafsir is based on the books above which you have just said no to, the Hadith books.

    Only a lil bit, most of them are tafsir-ing and quoting Quran.

    I still think you should consider a career in Politics, or government though! 😉

    Vote for me. 😉

  24. 1ndra says:

    Indra, yes I am still waiting for your reply in regard to St. Valentine. I know you are very busy answering the others. Though I think you are responsible for the truth what you are posting here. Sorry to say, if you are making up things, not telling the truth it means lying (sorry, I don’t want to use this word) and this is what ‘haram’ is Indra. I will apologize once you give me the right answer.
    Take care!

    I’ve got from three sites and a book.

    The legend of St. Valentine is not absolutely clear”¦”¦”¦.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine's_Day#Catholic_Origins

    From Indonesian language site:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/jamaah@arroyyan.com/msg02450.html

  25. Rockstar says:

    Valentine’s day.. it’s old. 🙁
    I’m a Rockstar declares a new day to celebrate. Van-Halen-tine’s day, 🙂 now we’re rocking. 🙂

  26. Hassan says:

    Julita: “I did no say where it first started, though I am sure it started with the Ten Commandments given to Mozes”

    So basically, pre-Moses people never ever gave charity? Adam, Abraham, Noah, None? 🙂

    And about giving charity, Julita, I’m sure the Torah which were given to the Jews had also mentioned it. And since the Torah was an earlier revelation than the Bible, then perhaps giving charity is a Jewish culture. 😉

    Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were all part of the Abrahamic line of teaching. They basically come from (or inspired by) the same God, hence none of those religion can claim that their religion taught a certain virtue first and that they introduced that virtue to humanity. God taught those virtues to us.

  27. Julita says:

    Of course Hasan, they were and are God’s people even before the Ten Commandements they did live in Charity.

    Hasan: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were all part of the Abrahamic line of teaching. They basically come from (or inspired by) the same God, hence none of those religion can claim that their religion taught a certain virtue first and that they introduced that virtue to humanity. God taught those virtues to us.

    Very true, to all.

    I was not discussing about the origin, you came up with it and if we need to discuss this I have to collect data so that I don’t do not sound like an empty ……Though about how others live now I don’t know, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam yes they should live according to the same law. I do believe it is also put in the human conscience if they do not refuse it. As about the West, I hear it everyday and witness it with my own eyes, so I can say it.

    Thanks Indra, I will look it up and give you a feed-back.

    Regards to you.

  28. Julita says:

    Sorry, Indra it seems you translate from Indonesian into English instead of just copy and paste from the English, perhaps you like that better. That is O.K.

  29. 1ndra says:

    Sorry, Indra it seems you translate from Indonesian into English instead of just copy and paste from the English, perhaps you like that better. That is O.K.

    My english is bad, is it?
    If I copy paste, I worried it might be deleted.

  30. Julita says:

    No, Indra you are doing very, very well. In a computer like this and e-mail we od make mistakes. Nice talking to you. Love!

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