The Vespa Lifestyle

Feb 24th, 2007, in News, by

Female students at the University of Indonesia no longer ride around on Vespa scooters half naked.

The “Vespa Girls” at the UI of the roaring 70’s, who apparently once cruised about on Italian motor scooters between classes, sometimes wearing no underwear under their mini-skirts, are no longer with us. These exponents of the Vespa Lifestyle at the nation’s pre-eminent seat of learning have now been replaced by young women who attend Quranic education classes, pray five times daily, and keep their jewels under wraps, and keep away from Vespas if possible. So says Hannah Beech in an article in Time magazine which says Indonesia is undergoing an Islamic spiritual revolution.

Vespa Girls
The times ain’t what they used to be.

In “Why Indonesia Matters” (hmm), Beech makes a familiar list of recent changes in Indonesian political and social life, from the increasing tendency of women to put on the jilbab, or headscarf, regional Islamic laws such as those in Bulukumba, the spread of dour Salafi Islam from Saudi Arabia and the decline of the Hindu-Buddhist Islam of the masses, the Indonesia Ulema Council’s increasing conservatism and fatwa issuing, the occurrence of terrorist attacks, and so forth.

Jilbab
All the rage.

There is a battle, she says, over what constitutes true Islam, and the destiny of the country is at stake. The battle goes on, and the Islamists often suffer setbacks, but don’t expect a return of the Vespa Girls at UI anytime soon. Read on.


All the rage II.


101 Comments on “The Vespa Lifestyle”

  1. Cukurungan says:

    Indra say:

    Hey brother, I’m seriously laughing here. We know ‘kiamat sudah dekat’ and dajjals are coming. So stick to our Quran and Hadith so we won’t be get lied.

    You’re correct brother, hold both of them strongly if necessary, use your teeth. Dajjal is a very smart evil, he knows well it’s impossible to defeat the islamic tenets from the outside so that’s why dajjal is attacking from inside. If hadist gone at least dajjal succeeded to reduce 1/2 of the islamic tenets.

  2. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Cuk,

    You are already way too late, you need to look closer! The Jews were given Torah, but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel but follow the Gospels and Muslims were given Al Quran but follow Hadith and Sunnah, if you cannot see that you have already been fooled by Iblis then I feel sorry for you! You have all forsaken Allah’s word and followed manmade innovations, that is why there is so much conflict between you all, in fact Islam is probably in the worst state of all because despite knowing that Allah’s word is complete, perfect and fully detailed and Al Quran is protected from corruption you still follow your ridiculous manmade stories. That is probably why the Islamic world is so backward and riddled with conflict and ignorance.

    Peace

  3. Sputjam says:

    From where I am standing, I can see the folly of people who had embraced religion instead of God’s deen (system/order/way but definitely not religion).
    They dispute minor things such as women’s wadrobe and ignore larger issues such as praying to stones. Even the corrupters couldn’t hide the true messages in the Koran about the warnings of idol worship.
    Yes it is true, I read aididsafar.com and before that it was http://www.freeminds.org/books/journey.htm
    I must thank the internet as otherwise I too would have been trapped into stone worship and would have faced God’s wrath.
    For some, God have put a veil so that their eyes cannot see, and their brains cannot think. These people include the suicide bombers who died using God’s name to create carnage. The evil one’s will do anything to corrupt the earth.
    I am no preacher or cleric. God has not appointed any clerics but I see many who have fallen for Abu Bakar Bashir and taken him as their saviour instead of God.
    Take the story of solomon, as stated in the Koran, when he was informed of a certain community lead by a queen, and the community also worshipped the sun. And they felt good worshipping the sun until they encountered God’s deen through Soloman.
    Stories in the Koran gives subtle hints to what God expect of you.
    Adam was punished because he trangressed God’s commandment. Not one of the stories informed us that prophets of old had to worship numerous times a day etc, nor mentioned that they did the pilgrimage, nor fast during ramadan.
    But the stories indicated that the prophets tried to save mankind from homosexual acts/worshipping idols/evil bahaviour.
    Koran is for the human race, whether you are fully covered to prevent sand from entering your orifice such as in saudi, or almost fully naked, such as those people found in kalimantan or papua.
    Instead, we have orang asli of the religion of islam fully covered from head to toe in the jungles of the equator, definitely out of place for such a clothing, thanks to men’s corruption.
    think wisely and do not fall for the religionist who says that you have to do silly things because that was what is required by the creator. They merely create conjecture and if you follow, you are guilty for being stupid.
    If Solat is really required, there would have been a detailed surah indicating so. But the texts in the Koran merely asked us to have faith and to be rightoeus and do good deeds. No detailed religious rituals. Submit and serve God by doing good deeds. That was the message for the faihful and ignored by your clerics.

  4. Agusto says:

    People tend to be tolerant with what or how religious people wear no matter how stupid or ugly they look. But once you force other people who disagree with you to wear or dress up the same way as you do problem will arise. The point I am trying to make is, once sharia law is in effect there is no way a Muslim women have the freedom not to wear the veil, a good example is what is happening in Aceh. Even the burqa is mandatory in most mid east countries.
    Another problem is, a good Muslim understands that islam is the way of life prescribed by Allah for his servants (Muslims). A good Muslim should know this verse “To each among you, we have prescribed a law and a clear way (Qur ‘an 5:48) and (Quran 9:123) “Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you”! (Quran 8:39) “Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.”! (Quran 3:85) “Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.”
    For those bad Muslims who have not read the quran please check it out for yourself, and for those kuffar its time for you to surrender to allah!

  5. 1ndra says:

    Koran is for the human race, whether you are fully covered to prevent sand from entering your orifice such as in saudi, or almost fully naked, such as those people found in kalimantan or papua.
    Instead, we have orang asli of the religion of islam fully covered from head to toe in the jungles of the equator, definitely out of place for such a clothing, thanks to men’s corruption.

    Koran is for human race and Koran teaches to dress faithfully, see 24:31 and 33:59, that includes every human woman in every continent, every country and background, but you now make excuse for people living in the jungle to dress half naked.

    In my view, half naked dress is men’s corruption and including culture too.
    Remember culture already exist before Koran, jahiliyah, and that including half naked dress too.
    Just think about the past where men ruled and women only sexual objects, they sell women and dress them half naked and make the women dance sexually.

    Women are totally low at that time, they’re just a piece of meat and servant until Koran came, lift women and order the men to dress women faithfully and become respected.

    But we can see nowadays, women are most still low and piece of meat by her conscious uneducated faith, some of them voluntarily give their body to be enjoyed by men by any money necessary, prostitution, blue films, porn mags, striptease and thanks to even lower faith women they give some free access just by dress half naked or more, just need some creativity.
    And now some people now support them for the democracy’s sake, culture, and art and let the women drowned in their ‘highness’.

    Most culture is jahiliyah and should be left behind. Koran come to end it and unite all human race. We live for tomorrow and for the end of days. Angels won’t ask you, what’s your culture you’re in to.

    You’re all may be angry to me, but this is reality, we already know the truth.

    ____________

    If Solat is really required, there would have been a detailed surah indicating so. But the texts in the Koran merely asked us to have faith and to be rightoeus and do good deeds. No detailed religious rituals. Submit and serve God by doing good deeds. That was the message for the faihful and ignored by your clerics.

    Still dont read my verse quotation before, do you?

    God has not appointed any clerics

    Sure, Allah only appoint prophet. Clerics means people who do dakwah and not many people do that so there not many clerics. In your office or in your living, could you find a people who do dakwah?
    Dont you read Koran about Dakwah? There’re plenty. So the cleric is indirectly, exist.

    ______________

    A good Muslim should know this verse “To each among you, we have prescribed a law and a clear way (Qur ‘an 5:48) and (Quran 9:123) “Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you”! (Quran 8:39) “Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.”! (Quran 3:85) “Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.”
    For those bad Muslims who have not read the quran please check it out for yourself, and for those kuffar its time for you to surrender to allah!

    I’ve checked it Augusto, the first verse you quote clearly means the law including to obey the faithfully dressed (24:31 and 33:59).

    And the last one you quote, surrender to Allah clearly means pray and shalat too according to at least Al Baqarah 3, 43, 83, 110, 153, 177, 238, 239, 277 and surrender to Allah’s Dienul Islam, see at least 3:19 (Sesungguhnya, agama di sisi Allah hanyalah Islam…). 3:85 (Barang siapa mencari agama selain Islam, maka sekali-kali tidaklah akan diterima dan dia di akhirat termasuk orang-orang yang rugi) and 3:102 (…janganlah sekali-kali kamu mati melainkan dalam keadaan Islam).

  6. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:

    the Christians were given Injeel but follow the Gospels

    At the time the Quran was written, ie at the time the Quran mentions that the ‘Christians have the Injeel’, the Gospels were exactly the same as they are today. That means that the Quran recognises that today’s Christian Gospels are Injeel.

  7. Sputjam says:

    I believe that nothing was stated in any scriptures that during the time of jahiliah, women were half naked. The description given in the scripture was that of lewdness. Hence decent dressing is the key word. What constitues decent dressing? If you are swimming, the hijab is not viable.
    On your suggestion of worship towards a piece of meteorite stone in mecca, you can continue as you wish, but satan makes the ritual pleasing as stated below :-

    Here is Solomon’s story in full since you are in doubt :-

    And We bestowed upon David and Solomon knowledge, and they both said: “Praise be to God who preferred us over many of His believing servants.”
    27:16 And Solomon inherited from David, and he said: “O people, we have been taught how to understand the speech of the creatures that fly, and we have been given from everything. This is indeed an evident grace.”
    27:17 And Solomon’s soldiers were gathered, comprising of humans and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.
    27:18 Until they came to a valley of ants, a female ant said: “O ants, enter your homes else you will be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they do not notice.”
    27:19 He then smiled, amused by what she said. And he said: “My Lord, help me to be thankful for the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do good work that pleases You, and admit me by Your Mercy with Your righteous servants.”
    27:20 And he inspected the birds, then said: “Why do I not see the hoopoe, or is he among those absent?”
    27:21 “I will punish him severely, or I will kill him, else he should have an clear excuse.”
    27:22 But the hoopoe did not stay away long, then he said: “I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain.”
    27:23 “I found them ruled by a woman, and she was given all possession, and she had a great throne.”
    27:24 “And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.” 27:25 “Will they not prostrate to God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?” 27:26 “God, there is no god but He, the Lord of the great throne.”
    27:27 He said: “We will see if you are being truthful or are one of those who lie.”
    27:28 “Take this letter of mine and deliver it to them, then withdraw from them and observe what they respond with.”
    27:29 She said: “O commanders, a noble letter has been delivered to me.”
    27:30 “It is from Solomon, and it reads: “In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful””
    27:31 “”Do not be arrogant toward me and come to me as submitters””
    27:32 She said: “O commanders, advise me in this matter of mine, for I will not take a decision until you give testimony.”
    27:33 They said: “We are people of strength and mighty in power. But the decision is yours, so see what you will command.”
    27:34 She said: “When the kings enter a town they destroy it and make its most noble people humiliated. It is such that they do.”
    27:35 “And I will send to them a gift, then I will see with what the messengers will return.”
    27:36 So when they came to Solomon he said: “Are you providing me with wealth? What God has provided for me is far better than what He has given you. Now you are happy with your gift!”
    27:37 “Return to them. For we shall come to them with soldiers the like of which they have never seen, and we will drive them out humiliated, while they are feeble.”
    27:38 He said: “O commanders, which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?”
    27:39 A powerful being from among the Jinn said: “I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy.”
    27:40 And one who had knowledge from the Scripture said: “I will bring it to you before you blink.” So when he saw it resting before him, he said: “This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.”
    27:41 He said: “Disguise her throne so we may see if she will be guided or if she will be of those who are not guided.”
    27:42 So when she came, it was said: “Is your throne like this?” She said: “It appears to be similar.” And we were given knowledge before her, and we had submitted.
    27:43 And she was prevented by that which she served besides God. She was of the people who were rejecters.
    27:44 It was said to her: “Enter the palace.” So when she saw it she thought there was a pool, and she uncovered her legs. He said: “It is a palace paved with crystal.” She said: “My Lord, I have wronged myself; and I submit with Solomon to God, the Lord of the worlds.”

    Pagan worship is unforgivable –

    4:36 And serve God and do not set up anything with Him, and be kind to the parents, and the relatives, and the needy, and the neighbor who is of kin, and the neighbor next door, and the friend far away, and the traveler, and those committed to you by oath. God does not like the arrogant, the boastful

    4:48 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.

    I have given you evidence. Now show me your evidence in the Koran that you have to do 5 times daily prayers, two rakaat for suboh, 4 for zohor, 4 for asar, 3 for margrib, 4 for isyak. you are merely guessing and satan has made your rituals pleasing to you, just as stated in the Soloman’s story. Show me evidence that you have to recite certain words for the worship rituals in the Koran.
    God is my guide. The guide is in the koran. You can follow the path of those who will lead you astray such as the authors of the hadith.
    The following was stated in the Koran so that you may understand :-

    The Quran confirms this understanding by stating the following:

    “Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Converts, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.” (Quran 5:69)

    The emphasis is to do good works/deeds. This is the words that is missing in your pagan ritual on friday. Take the first step and study the Koran with good intent. And if you need assistance, God is only a call away.

    Medievel Arabs were stone worshipping pagans and pagan culture has infiltrated the teachings of God.
    Peace!

  8. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niahm Piperman said:

    At the time the Quran was written, ie at the time the Quran mentions that the ‘Christians have the Injeel’, the Gospels were exactly the same as they are today. That means that the Quran recognises that today’s Christian Gospels are Injeel.

    Not quite, what Al Quran mentions as Injeel, is what Nabi Isa/Jesus was given by God, this was a verbal message, he was after all known as “The Word” was he not? What the Christians follow is not this original “Word” but the word as transcribed by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, etc. this is not the same thing by any means, for instance the earliest dated gospel, does not mention Nabi Isa/Jesus as the Son of God, whilst those of a later period do. The earliest followers of Nabi Isa/Jesus also did not believe that he was the literal Son of God, this belief was not even official Church doctrine until the Nicene Creed was adopted many, many years after his death. These are all historical facts supported by documentary evidence and scientific research if you wish to search for the truth.

    Peace

  9. Agusto says:

    Indra,

    That’s the whole point I m trying to make! Once shariah is in effect all Muslims or non Muslims should obey it, and that is very unfair for the non Muslims. They either have to convert to islam or risk being subjugated if not killed, (Quran 9:123) “Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you” this verse clearly says that!

    I wonder how your interpretation of this verse (Quran 3:85) “Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter” can mean pray and shalat? This verse means convert to islam!
    Well anyway Muslims can have all the interpretation they like either out of ignorance or by playing taqiyya! Please use your conscience and a little compassion to the non Muslims, if you want shariah at least let them know the truth of it so they have time to decide, dont ambush them like quran 009.005 “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” There is no question the secular Indonesian govt will finally surrender to sharia, there so many islamic pol party and organization that want to transform this country into an islamic state, we will all be forced by the mullah just like Iran! Basically if you really want sharia you have got it, there is no way the so call moderate sitting on the fence doing nothing type of Muslim will help the kuffar when the time comes! And the kuffar will never fight in the name of their religion they love life too much! So, give them a chance to decide dont ambush them! This is how islam infiltrates!

  10. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:

    for instance the earliest dated gospel, does not mention Nabi Isa/Jesus as the Son of God, whilst those of a later period do.

    Even if the ‘earliest dated gospel’ doesn’t mention it, what about the Gospels that were in existence at the time the Quran was written –

    does not the Quran state Qur’an 5:47

    “Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed, such are evil-livers.”

    If it does indeed say this then the Quran aknowledges the Gospel then (which is the same as the Gospel now – documentary and scientific evidence can prove it) as INJIL. Would Christians (People of the Gospel) have been commanded by Allah to judge by the Injil if there had been any reason to believe that it was not authentic in every detail?

    The earliest followers of Nabi Isa/Jesus also did not believe that he was the literal Son of God, this belief was not even official Church doctrine until the Nicene Creed was adopted many, many years after his death.

    What about the Apostles? Paul certainly talks about the Son of God.

    These are all historical facts supported by documentary evidence and scientific research if you wish to search for the truth.

    So you’re telling me that the myriad of highly experienced Biblical anthropologists, archaeologists and other authorities on the history of the Biblical documents have been deluded for so many years?

    Are you also saying the Christians who were willing to die for their faith, willingly conspired to change their Holy Books (which to them were as the Al Quran is to Muslims – Holy) knowing that doing so would bring the wrath of God upon them?

    Also, why on Earth would they risk their salvation by changing their Gospel and adding something (or exchanging the ‘true Injil’ for the Gospel) which to our rationality is really, very ludicrous (A Man being God and the Son of God at the same time)? What man in his human nature could ever think up such a concept of a man being the Son of God, and God at the same time, unless of course, it is a higher concept which originated from God, because God’s thoughts and ideas are higher than human thoughts?

    Christianity makes such seemingly absurd claims (God becoming a man; God dying on a cross; God rising from the dead; Salvation based on faith not religious piety) that in reality it seems such claims could only come from none other than God himself.

    Peace too.

  11. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Augusto,

    Whilst I agree with the general point you are trying to make with 1ndra, here are a few things that you need to be aware of, no just you in fact but the Mainstream Muslims, some are already aware but others, believe the verses meaning to be the same as you.

    (Quran 9:123) “Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you”

    The verses you quoted have to be read in context, Muslims are not allowed to fight unless they are personally being attacked, the verses you quoted were given when the Muslims at that time were being attacked and are meant to only apply during the same circumstances.

    “Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter”

    This verse applies to all who believe in Allah/God’s scriptures, the Jews who truly follow Torah, the Christians who truly follow Injeel, and the Muslims who truly follow Al Quran, all of them have surrendered to Allah in the way which was given to them, as Sputjam has shown above: “Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Converts, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.” (Quran 5:69)

    The mainstream Muslims ignore this verse which clearly show that all who follow Allah/God’s path are believers, it is only their corrupted belief in Hadith and Sunnah which allows them to call non-Muslims Kafir, or non-believers.

    Peace

  12. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niamh Piperman said:

    Even if the ‘earliest dated gospel’ doesn’t mention it, what about the Gospels that were in existence at the time the Quran was written –

    does not the Quran state Qur’an 5:47

    “Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed, such are evil-livers.”

    Please don’t forget that Al Quran also says:

    “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. ” 4:171

    The critical part of the verse you quoted is the phrase “…judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein” I think it is fair to say that the earliest Gospel is more likely to have been more closely related to fact, the later gospels were based on this earlier one, with modifications or embellishments to make Nabi Isa/Jesus less human and more godlike. Therefore to Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein is to take what Allah has given and not the manmade embellishments.

    So you’re telling me that the myriad of highly experienced Biblical anthropologists, archaeologists and other authorities on the history of the Biblical documents have been deluded for so many years?

    No, I am suggesting that The Church, The Establishment, has been deluding their followers for many years to maintain their wealth and power, the biblical scholars, highly experienced Biblical anthropologists, archaeologists and other authorities on the history of the Biblical documents have been searching for the truth some of which is here: Gospel.

    Are you also saying the Christians who were willing to die for their faith, willingly conspired to change their Holy Books (which to them were as the Al Quran is to Muslims – Holy) knowing that doing so would bring the wrath of God upon them?

    Many Christians who died for their faith were in the early days of Christianity when the Canonical Gospels were still not accepted as the Four Pillars of the Christian Faith. There were in fact many, many Gospels which were suppressed by the Early Church, because they didn’t fit the image that the early church was trying to project of Jesus. The Wrath of God didn’t stop the Spanish Inquistion, it also didn’t stop popes and priests from having mistresses or stealing or waging war. Some men have a propensity for evil which is just astounding! Perhaps they are really devil worshipers instead, pretending to be good?

    Christianity makes such seemingly absurd claims (God becoming a man; God dying on a cross; God rising from the dead; Salvation based on faith not religious piety) that in reality it seems such claims could only come from none other than God himself.

    The one claim of Christianity which proves to me that the mainstrean beliefs are wrong, and not from God is this one:

    “Salvation is only available through Jesus”

    Any religion which claims exclusivity cannot be from the God that I believe in, My God is tolerant of all faiths, and is forgiving and merciful.

    Peace.

  13. Agusto says:

    khafi,

    I know you are trying to white wash and sugar coat islam! You said: “The verses you quoted have to be read in context, Muslims are not allowed to fight unless they are personally being attacked, the verses you quoted were given when the Muslims at that time were being attacked and are meant to only apply during the same circumstances.” May I ask you how the hell do you know this verse were during that time.

    You did not quote this verse properly “Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Converts, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.” (Quran 5:69). It should be:

    YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians – Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right – there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

    SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good– they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

    You replace that “allah” by “god” to make it more universal that is call sugar coating! Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or atheists do not belive in Mohammad’s version of allah!
    I can show you hundred of nasty verses in the quran to make you sick by just reading them! Next time if you want to cherry pick verses at least be honest!

    Now you are confusing, you said: “The mainstream Muslims ignore this verse which clearly show that all who follow Allah/God’s path are believers, it is only their corrupted belief in Hadith and Sunnah which allows them to call non-Muslims Kafir, or non-believers.” Are you saying that the mainstream Muslims do not believe in the hadith and sunnah. I thought the quran is the perfect book authored by allah, how can you ignore a verse then, and who has the right to ignore any verse, is someone playing allah’s prophet here?

    Btw, since you don’t believe in sunna and hadith why don’t you go to the mosque tommorow for your friday prayer and tell the ustadz to never again use the hadith and sunna, see what you will get! You will end up in some hospital with a blue black eye and some broken ribs if not killed!

  14. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Augusto,

    I am not trying to Whitewash or Sugarcoat Islam, I am very well aware of the horrors associated with it which are hiding behind a religious facade.

    You said:

    May I ask you how the hell do you know this verse were during that time.

    The history of the revelation of the verses is well documented, it is that history that puts the verses into context, unfortunately it is the likes of Osama bin Laden, terrorists etc, and all the ignorant Mullahs and the Imams of Mainstream Islam that take these verses and use them out of context. The mainstream in general can’t be bothered to study or learn for themselves as instructed by Allah/God/Supreme Being etc (you chose which one you like)

    You said:

    Now you are confusing, you said: “The mainstream Muslims ignore this verse which clearly show that all who follow Allah/God’s path are believers, it is only their corrupted belief in Hadith and Sunnah which allows them to call non-Muslims Kafir, or non-believers.” Are you saying that the mainstream Muslims do not believe in the hadith and sunnah. I thought the quran is the perfect book authored by allah, how can you ignore a verse then, and who has the right to ignore any verse, is someone playing allah’s prophet here?

    I am clearly saying that they do believe in Hadith and Sunnah.

    Which verse am I ignoring Augusto ? I am clearly stating that it is the mainstream believers of Sunnah and Hadith that ignore it.

    Btw, since you don’t believe in sunna and hadith why don’t you go to the mosque tommorow for your friday prayer and tell the ustadz to never again use the hadith and sunna, see what you will get! You will end up in some hospital with a blue black eye and some broken ribs if not killed!

    If killed I would not be able to continue with trying to enlighten the backward would I. I am not stupid and have no death wish, however I do openly discuss the issues of Sunnah and Hadith and have found others who feel as I do, who do the same as I, that is spreading the realisation that the teachings of mainstream Islam are way off course.

    Islam can only be changed from within, or destroyed completely from without, as far as I can see there are no other options. I don’t really need to ask which option you would choose, it is obviously the one which would result in major bloodshed and loss of life. Your confrontational attitude stands out very clearly in your comments.

    The mainstream Muslims believe the interpretation of the verses as they do, because they have been indoctrinated and brainwashed into doing that, they are taught not to question or probe or seek knowledge and more importantly not to reason, because of this they have become lazy to educate themselves in anyway, and prefer somebody else to tell them what to believe and what to do, this is what the Sunnah and Hadith are all about, control of the masses, allowing then to be exploited by the rich and powerful.

    But at least those people have an excuse for believing this nonsense, just what is your excuse? Or are you just like them and believe what you are told? You obviously have never studied Al Quran or its history, or you would know better. Perhaps just like some of them you are a religious bigot, with a narrow minded viewpoint, and a complete lack of tolerance for others beliefs?

    Peace

  15. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:
    March 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    Please don’t forget that Al Quran also says:
    “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. ” 4:171

    Christians also only believe in One Allah.

    The critical part of the verse you quoted is the phrase “”¦judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein” I think it is fair to say that the earliest Gospel is more likely to have been more closely related to fact, the later gospels were based on this earlier one, with modifications or embellishments to make Nabi Isa/Jesus less human and more godlike.

    The modern Gospels do not make Jesus less human, in fact they describe him as being perfectly human, so human that he felt hunger, thirst, emotion, pain, and could die.

    Therefore to Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein is to take what Allah has given and not the manmade embellishments.

    But the Gospels that we have now are the same as the Gospels (NB Canonised Gospels that is) at the time of Mohammed. There are manuscripts to prove it. Meaning that if the modern Gospels are embellished (corrupt) then so were the ones at the time of Mohammed. Why would Allah instruct us to judge by “that which Allah hath revealed therein” if clearly that means Allah hath revealed a corrupt Gospel?

    Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

    This instrction is written in the “present” tense. If the Gospel (Injil) was corrupted at that time then surely Allah would never have asked the people of the Gospel, the Christians, to believe in it.

    I am suggesting that The Church, The Establishment, has been deluding their followers for many years to maintain their wealth and power,

    Please don’t degrade the intelligence of your arguments by resorting to conspiracy theories. There is far more to Christian doctrinal authority than ‘The Church, The Establishment’. There are way too many independent Christian scholars outside ‘The establishment’ who base their belief in the Scriptures not because of any conspiratorial pressure from The Church (by which you no doubt mean The Vatican) and who have ready access to the historical manuscripts of the canonical Scriptures AND the ones that were supposedly suppressed, unlike Islam where all the variants bar one were destroyed by Kalif Ottoman.

    Secondly, If Allah instructs the people of the Gospels to believe in them, surely He is powerful enough to ensure their (the Gospels’) survival.

    Any religion which claims exclusivity cannot be from the God that I believe in, My God is tolerant of all faiths, and is forgiving and merciful.

    Do you believe the Quran? Show me where the Quran says this about ‘your’ God. How do you interpret The Quran At-Taubah 9:29-30?

  16. Orgindo says:

    Btw, since you don’t believe in sunna and hadith why don’t you go to the mosque tommorow for your friday prayer and tell the ustadz to never again use the hadith and sunna, see what you will get! You will end up in some hospital with a blue black eye and some broken ribs if not killed!

    Well.. that’s the problem, my friend. Don’t you realize it? Do you believe in something just because other force you to do so?

    Do you wear jilbab just because your environment is pressuring you?

    If so, where is the pahala?

    Anyway, a well-said piece of information from me from Khafi. Totally a different perspective for me.

  17. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:

    March 1st, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    The earliest followers of Nabi Isa/Jesus also did not believe that he was the literal Son of God, this belief was not even official Church doctrine until the Nicene Creed was adopted many, many years after his death. These are all historical facts supported by documentary evidence and scientific research if you wish to search for the truth.

    There is plenty of evidence to show the early Christians worshipped Chraist as the Son of God, for example –

    1) in a letter from Pliny, the govenor of Pontus (111-113AD) to the Emperor Trajan he states his observations of Christians at and prior to that time –

    “…they [Christians] were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hym to Christ as to a god…”

    2) the writing of Justyn Martyr for example this exerpt from HERE

    “…From the writings of early Christians, historians have tried to piece together an understanding of various early Christian practices including worship services, customs and observances. Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr described these practices. In his “First Apology,” a letter of defense written to Roman emperor, Antonius Pius, 161-180, Justin described simple Christian worship services and practices, explaining:

    There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. … And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion….And this food is called among us Eucharistia or [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. … we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. [16]
    Emphasis mine.

    See also the history of Justyn Martyr HERE

    Cheers,

    NP

  18. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niamh Piperman said:

    Christians also only believe in One Allah.

    Yes but it is the oneness of that Allah that is questioned in Islam, in Islam Allah is simply one, but in most christain belief Allah is one made of three parts.

    The modern Gospels do not make Jesus less human, in fact they describe him as being perfectly human, so human that he felt hunger, thirst, emotion, pain, and could die.

    The earlier dated synoptic Gospels, those by Mathew, Mark and Luke, are generally in agreement on this, depicting Jesus as man with some god like qualities, but there appear to be from the same source with many similar if not exactly worded passages, but the later Gospel of John which is in a completely different style of writing is the only one which categorically states that Jesus is God.

    Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

    This instrction is written in the “present” tense. If the Gospel (Injil) was corrupted at that time then surely Allah would never have asked the people of the Gospel, the Christians, to believe in it.

    This verse is conditional, the People of the Book are told to judge by the Gospels, on the condition that they do it by what Allah has revealed within, this is reinforced by the second part of the verse, which repeats this requirement albeit in a slightly different phrasing. They have to leave out any embellishments. You must remember that Jesus as “The Word” was carrying a verbal message, the Gospels are basically Biography’s of his life, they are not Divine Scripture, although they may be divinely inspired, they are still mens recollections and memories and as such they are open to errors.

    My opinions about the church are not directed towards the Vatican in particular, in actual fact they are not really directed at any religion in particular, they are certainly not a conspiracy theory (I guess you must have been reading The Davinci Code or Angels and Demons), they are from my personal observations and my knowledge of history and religion. Nearly all organised religions, are either obscenely wealthy or obscenely powerful, both wealth and power lead to temptation to corrupt. I am sure that religious leaders of the past as of the present day are not immune to this temptation.

    If Allah instructs the people of the Gospels to believe in them, surely He is powerful enough to ensure their (the Gospels’) survival.

    Yes of course, and I know that some Christians are following the preachings of Jesus without believing that he is God Incarnate. He is doing this work by allowing scholars to show the inconsistensies in the written Gospels, and hopefully to arrive at the source of their inspiration and thereby the truth.

    Any religion which claims exclusivity cannot be from the God that I believe in, My God is tolerant of all faiths, and is forgiving and merciful.

    Do you believe the Quran? Show me where the Quran says this about ‘your’ God.

    Yes of course I beleieve in Al Quran, I also believe in the previous scriptures, as long as I can feel for sure that what I read is from Allah and not as we talked about earlier, embellishment.

    Tolerance:

    “Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabi’een, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” Quran 2:62

    “Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabi’un, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” Quran 5:69

    Forgiving:

    “GOD does not forgive that partners be established with Him, but He forgives other than that to whom He wishes 4:48

    “Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.” 4:116

    There are actually 82 occurences of the word ‘forgiveness’ in Al Quran

    Merciful:

    This word occurs 126 times in Al Quran!

    How do you interpret The Quran At-Taubah 9:29-30?

    “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” 9:29

    “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!” 9:30

    The first verse is the Muslims being given permission to fight unbelievers until they pay taxes, unbelievers being those who have been given scripture and do not follow what Allah has given them in that scripture. The phrase “Religion of Truth” being what Allah has given to all mankind, not just Muslim, but all others who as stated in comments above, believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds. Fight just means struggle not physical violence, just as I fight against Sharia Implementation, it doesn’t mean that I use violent means to do it.

    The second verse is quite clear, it is stating that both the Jews and Christians are setting up partners with God, going back to the old ways of polytheism in effect.

    There is plenty of evidence to show the early Christians worshipped Chraist as the Son of God, for example –

    In that case you will also know that there is also plenty of evidence to show that other early Christians worshipped him as a Prophet. The sources which you have quoted above are all after the earliest dates estimated for the Synoptic Gospels and possible post date the earliest estimated date for the Gospel of John, by this time the idea that Jesus was God Incarnate already had a foothold in religious circles.

    Utimately what we all believe should be our own personal choice, we should base it on what we know, or understand and on what we feel to be right or wrong. That is the way it should be, religion between the individual and their God, with no imposition of belief by any establishment or group.

    Peace

  19. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:

    March 2nd, 2007 at 2:10 pm

    but in most christain belief Allah is one made of three parts.

    Can you explain your idea of the Trinity?

    The earlier dated synoptic Gospels, those by Mathew, Mark and Luke, are generally in agreement on this, depicting Jesus as man with some god like qualities, but there appear to be from the same source with many similar if not exactly worded passages, but the later Gospel of John which is in a completely different style of writing is the only one which categorically states that Jesus is God.

    And it is these Gospels, including John, which the early Christians held to be the true Gospels. Can you show me examples of the so-called ‘True’ Gospel that you talk about? Can you point me to modern day Christians who still hold on to these ‘original Gosples’?

    “The Word” was carrying a verbal message, the Gospels are basically Biography’s of his life, they are not Divine Scripture, although they may be divinely inspired, they are still mens recollections and memories and as such they are open to errors.

    The same can be said of The Quran

    Nearly all organised religions, are either obscenely wealthy or obscenely powerful, both wealth and power lead to temptation to corrupt. I am sure that religious leaders of the past as of the present day are not immune to this temptation.

    What obscene Wealth did the early Christians (ie, the Church) have that they felt the need to supress the truth in favour of the canonised Scriptures?

    The early Christians, who held that the Scriptures we still have today were the Truth, were poor, widely dispersed, and widely persecuted. That was the reason the felt the need to canonise the Scriptures – not to supres anything, but to formally colate and recognise that which was already held to be the truth since Jesus’ time.

    Can you adequaltely prove otherwise?

    Yes of course, and I know that some Christians are following the preachings of Jesus without believing that he is God Incarnate.

    Yes, but they still believe the same Scriptures we have today – the Unitarians, Jehova’s Witnesses etc still read the New Testament as it is and always has been.

    He is doing this work by allowing scholars to show the inconsistensies in the written Gospels, and hopefully to arrive at the source of their inspiration and thereby the truth.

    But you have to admit, it doesn’t look very good for God, if he revealed the truth to the Jews and they lost it, to the Christians, and the lost it, and now to the Muslims. Your perspective on history seems to indicate that the Quran is in danger of being lost too.

    thank you for you interpretations of the Verses. I will not comment.

    There is plenty of evidence to show the early Christians worshipped Chraist as the Son of God, for example –

    In that case you will also know that there is also plenty of evidence to show that other early Christians worshipped him as a Prophet.

    Can you show me? What about any texts (Gospels) that teach this? You’ll have to show me evidence from the first century, since you don’t seem to want to accept my evidence which you say –

    The sources which you have quoted above are all after the earliest dates estimated for the Synoptic Gospels and possible post date the earliest estimated date for the Gospel of John,

    Utimately what we all believe should be our own personal choice, we should base it on what we know, or understand and on what we feel to be right or wrong. That is the way it should be, religion between the individual and their God, with no imposition of belief by any establishment or group

    So why does the Quran insist that those that do not follow the truth pay taxes?

    Peace

  20. Sputjam says:

    While there are some arguing on religious matters, they have missed the BIG picture.

    Satan has made worship of things other than God pleasing to us.

    The Muslims revolve around a piece of meteorite stone and bow and prostrate 5 times daily towards this stone, the Christians worship a man/apostle created by God, the Buddhist worship at images of Buddha.

    But everybody is suppose to serve the One True God by submitting to his commandments.

    That is basically the whole truthful message in the Koran/bible. If you want to lead a straight path, then observe God’s commandments. And do not trangress the commandments.

    That is why Islam is so simple and yet difficult for pagans to understand. And once you have understood the truth, then koran becomes easy to remember and understand.

    Who cares what Paul said. The ten commandments already stated the truth. Worship no God but He, The Creator of meteorite stones, Jesus and stones for making statues/images of Buddha.

  21. Sputjam says:

    How do you worship the One God? He will guide whom He wants and lead to astray whom He wills. But can the word worship be submit? Therefore Submit to the One God by serving Him.
    Hence Muslims are called submitters.

    Peace bro! and wake up from your pagan slumber!

  22. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niamh Piperman Said:

    Can you explain your idea of the Trinity?

    I am sorry but I just don’t have any concept of Trinity, I cannot comprehend God as being other than a single entity!

    And it is these Gospels, including John, which the early Christians held to be the true Gospels. Can you show me examples of the so-called ‘True’ Gospel that you talk about? Can you point me to modern day Christians who still hold on to these ‘original Gosples’?

    As I understand the datings of the Gospels, the transition from Jesus as a man to Jesus as a God occurs gradually, with only the very latest and the only Canonical Gospel which differs in all respects from the others not only in it’s writing style but also as declaring categorically stating that Jesus is God.

    Of course I cannot show you an example of the “True Gospel”, as I have said it was a verbal message, the only thing I can suggest is that possibly the earlier Gospels, which show Jesus as man rather than God are closer to the truth, There is no denying that Jesus’s influence and teachings have had a great influence on people, his teachings of love kindness, helping the poor and disposessed have had far reaching consequences for all mankind, however that does not make him God!

    As to modern day Christians that follow the ideals of these earlier Gospels and the principle of Jesus as Man, here are some: Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians, Iglesia ni Cristo, Oneness Pentecostals, and the Unification Church.

    “The Word” was carrying a verbal message, the Gospels are basically Biography’s of his life, they are not Divine Scripture, although they may be divinely inspired, they are still mens recollections and memories and as such they are open to errors.

    The same can be said of The Quran

    Not really, the revelations to Prophet Mohammed, were dictated to professional memorisers, who were prolific at that time in Arabia, as the written language was at an early stage, or were written directly onto whatever scraps of material were available. So this does not apply to Al Quran, however it does apply to Sunnah and Hadith, which were recollections and anecdotes collected some years after The Prophets death, which is the reason that I personally place no value on them.

    Nearly all organised religions, are either obscenely wealthy or obscenely powerful, both wealth and power lead to temptation to corrupt. I am sure that religious leaders of the past as of the present day are not immune to this temptation.

    What obscene Wealth did the early Christians (ie, the Church) have that they felt the need to supress the truth in favour of the canonised Scriptures?

    Please don’t mix up “Early Christians” with “The Church”, The early Christians were for me the mainstream followers of the religion, and I have never said that even the early church had obscene wealth, but given the number of different beliefs in the early church, who can deny the fact that Jesus as God, would have given the early church more power and influence.

    The early Christians, who held that the Scriptures we still have today were the Truth, were poor, widely dispersed, and widely persecuted. That was the reason the felt the need to canonise the Scriptures – not to supres anything, but to formally colate and recognise that which was already held to be the truth since Jesus’ time.

    Can you adequaltely prove otherwise?

    The concept of The Trinity was not accepted Church Doctrine until the 4th century. The Trinitarian view has been affirmed as an article of faith by the Nicene (325/381) and Athanasian creeds (circa 500), which attempted to standardize belief in the face of disagreements on the subject. These creeds were formulated and ratified by the Church of the third and fourth centuries in reaction to heterodox theologies concerning the Trinity and/or Christ.
    These were church councils convened by an already established structure, which was wealthy and powerful, not the poor widely dispersed Christians which you are talking about.

    But you have to admit, it doesn’t look very good for God, if he revealed the truth to the Jews and they lost it, to the Christians, and the lost it, and now to the Muslims. Your perspective on history seems to indicate that the Quran is in danger of being lost too.

    I don’t think Al Quran will be lost as there are too many copies in circulation which do not vary by as much as a single word, There are some early manuscripts which have some differences but these are only diacritical marks or accents, as the early Arabic Script was still in a state of development at that time.

    What is happening with Islam is that people are forgetting Al Quran and instead basing their faith on Sunnah and Hadith.

    Utimately what we all believe should be our own personal choice, we should base it on what we know, or understand and on what we feel to be right or wrong. That is the way it should be, religion between the individual and their God, with no imposition of belief by any establishment or group

    So why does the Quran insist that those that do not follow the truth pay taxes?

    Those who follow the truth also have to pay taxes, why should one be exempt from taxes, because one does not believe in God?

    If you are living in a Truely Muslim society, which if it follows Al Quran, will protect your right to follow you religion, will give you protection in time of war and not insist on you fighting to protect it, which also provides you with civil service and government. Would you really expect it to be free just because you do not believe in God!

    Peace

  23. Niamh Piperman says:

    MK,

    So far you haven’t given me any solid evidence. You are relying on mere conjecture by making vague statements such as…

    “I think it is fair to say that the earliest Gospel is more likely to have been…”

    and

    “I also believe in the previous scriptures, as long as I can feel for sure that what I read is from Allah…”

    and

    “I cannot comprehend God as being other than a single entity!”

    and

    “…the only thing I can suggest is that possibly the earlier Gospels, which show Jesus as man rather than God are closer to the truth,…”

    I also believe in the previous scriptures

    How can you believe in something which the majority of evidence, even from the Quran itself, shows to be non-existent? You said yourself ….

    Of course I cannot show you an example of the “True Gospel”, as I have said it was a verbal message,

    What do you mean ‘a verbal message”? The Quran explicitly refers to the Gospels and Torah as being a Book –

    al-Ma’ida 5:72: “Say: `People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel.'”

    al-Nisa’ 4:135: “O believers, believe in God and His Messenger and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before.

    al-Qasas 28:49: “Say: `Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these (the Qur’an and the Bible), and follow it, if you speak truly.'”

    How can you speculate that the true Gospel was verbal and not written down?

    As to modern day Christians that follow the ideals of these earlier Gospels and the principle of Jesus as Man, here are some: Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians, Iglesia ni Cristo, Oneness Pentecostals, and the Unification Church.

    Yes, but they still refer to the Modern Gospels – they just like to chop bits out that they don’t like. All religions have their heretics. They don’t have the original Gospels, because as even yourself admitted, they don’t exist.

    Not really, the revelations to Prophet Mohammed, were dictated to professional memorisers, who were prolific at that time in Arabia, as the written language was at an early stage,

    Everybody was a professional memoriser – the Jews the Greeks, that’s how history was transmitted. That’s why the Gospels were able to be written down – there were many believers who lived at the time of Jesus, anything that was written down that was erroneous would have been singled out pretty quickly as not being consistent with the experiences of those first believers.

    I don’t think Al Quran will be lost as there are too many copies in circulation which do not vary by as much as a single word, There are some early manuscripts which have some differences but these are only diacritical marks or accents, as the early Arabic Script was still in a state of development at that time.

    For a comparison of the History of the Quran and the Bible go HERE.

    Cheers,

    NP

    _____________

    Mohammed Khafi Says:

    March 5th, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    If you are living in a Truely Muslim society, which if it follows Al Quran

    There are no ‘Truly Muslim societies’ yet there are societies of majority Muslim populations and ‘dhimmis’ who have to kow-tow to them.

  24. Mohammed Khafi says:

    NP Said:

    So far you haven’t given me any solid evidence. You are relying on mere conjecture by making vague statements such as”¦

    “I think it is fair to say that the earliest Gospel is more likely to have been”¦”

    I would say closer to the source and therefore less chance of corruption! Not really conjecture more like common sense I would say!

    “I also believe in the previous scriptures, as long as I can feel for sure that what I read is from Allah”¦”

    I have to use Al Quran as the criterion of what is Divinely Inspired, what is wrong with that?

    I am sure you know that even the four Canonical Gospels differ in various respects with regard to the life of Jesus, even with regard to what Jesus’s last words were on the cross, do you not have to make choices about what you believe in the Gospels, or do you think that all the Gospel writers just divided up Jesus’s last words so they all had something to write and it was more fair? 😉

    “I cannot comprehend God as being other than a single entity!”

    Personal opinion, neither conjecture nor vague I would say.

    “”¦the only thing I can suggest is that possibly the earlier Gospels, which show Jesus as man rather than God are closer to the truth,”¦”

    See point No 1.

    I also believe in the previous scriptures

    How can you believe in something which the majority of evidence, even from the Quran itself, shows to be non-existent? You said yourself “¦.

    Of course I cannot show you an example of the “True Gospel”, as I have said it was a verbal message,

    What do you mean ‘a verbal message”? The Quran explicitly refers to the Gospels and Torah as being a Book –

    al-Ma’ida 5:72: “Say: `People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel.'”

    al-Nisa’ 4:135: “O believers, believe in God and His Messenger and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before.

    al-Qasas 28:49: “Say: `Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these (the Qur’an and the Bible), and follow it, if you speak truly.'”

    The first verse quoted is incorrect I am sure you must have meant:

    “Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.” 5:68

    The Book is in fact Torah, not The Gospels, the fact that The Book and The Gospels are two different things are shown in Al Quran thus:

    “And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 3:48

    The Christians are called followers of The Book because they should be following Torah, this is shown in the Bible thus:

    Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

    Backed up by the following:

    He that turneth away his ear from hearing the Torah, even his prayer [shall be] abomination, Proverbs 28:9

    But we know that the Torah is good, if a man use it lawfully; 1 Timothy 1:8

    But heaven and earth will come to an end before the smallest tittle of the Torah may be dropped out. Luke 16:17.

    Do we then make void the Torah through faith? By no means: but we establish the Torah, Romans 3:31.

    How can you speculate that the true Gospel was verbal and not written down?

    From Gospel and from Al Quran:

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. 4:171

    Do Christians not refer to him as The Word?

    As to modern day Christians that follow the ideals of these earlier Gospels and the principle of Jesus as Man, here are some: Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians, Iglesia ni Cristo, Oneness Pentecostals, and the Unification Church.

    Yes, but they still refer to the Modern Gospels – they just like to chop bits out that they don’t like. All religions have their heretics. They don’t have the original Gospels, because as even yourself admitted, they don’t exist.

    As you asked in an earlier comment, do you not think that they are afraid of the Wrath of God? If they are capable of “cutting bits out”, what makes you think that the priests and heirachy of the early Church were immune from “sticking things in”?

    Not really, the revelations to Prophet Mohammed, were dictated to professional memorisers, who were prolific at that time in Arabia, as the written language was at an early stage,

    Everybody was a professional memoriser – the Jews the Greeks, that’s how history was transmitted. That’s why the Gospels were able to be written down – there were many believers who lived at the time of Jesus, anything that was written down that was erroneous would have been singled out pretty quickly as not being consistent with the experiences of those first believers.

    I would take issue with you on that point, whilst Jesus’s followers during his lifetime may have numbered in their thousands, I believe that the vast majority were from the underclasses, the downtrodden and oppressed, criminals, prostitues, fishermen, farm labourers, carpenters etc, hardly the clerical classes of their time, I don’t think that many of them would be able to read and write? There is also the issue historiograpic evidence of Jesus asking anybody to write down his life and saying, not even his Disciples!

    Niamh, I study the work of your biblical scholars for my benefit, to increase my faith, If that doesn’t accord with what you believe, that is not a problem for me and shouldn’t be a problem for you either. I do not study them to argue with anybody, but you were the one who questioned my views so I am defending them. I hasten to add they they are just my views, based on study of different sources, I don’t ask anybody to believe them or to follow them unless they research the sources themselves and make up their own minds.
    ———————————————————————

    If you are living in a Truely Muslim society, which if it follows Al Quran

    There are no ‘Truly Muslim societies’ yet there are societies of majority Muslim populations and ‘dhimmis’ who have to kow-tow to them.

    Sad but true, that is why I am trying my best to correct that issue. If you check some of my other comments in other threads you will see that it is possible for a person who professes to be Muslim and following Al Quran to be tolerant, understanding, caring, well at least I hope that I am. Maybe my fellow Muslims would disagree with that!

    Peace

  25. Sony says:

    I could not more agree Mubarak, wearing jilbab doesn’t automatically make a woman become a good musllima, but at least she is consequent with her religion. I’m not feel bad or bother with half naked woman in mall, or in any public place. So if there are anyone who feels bad with woman wearing jilbab, maybe he/she must study more about islam and it’s culture. At some western country, women with jilbab are underestimated. Even in France, there is regulation that in public school, Muslima cannot wear jilbab. So I ask, where is democracy? Should we respect any other culture and faith?

  26. Dimp says:

    Hi Sony,

    Even in France, there is regulation that in public school, Muslima cannot wear jilbab. So I ask, where is democracy? Should we respect any other culture and faith?

    Why is it always that when the issue of jilbab taken into discussion people refer to France in a bad way, they issue this ban only in PUBLIC places, what you do in your PRIVATE place they have no problem. How about Turkey who has implement this law long before France, I did not hear any protests back then, why this issue was brought up now?

    At some western country, women with jilbab are underestimated.

    Can you please elaborate which western countries? If you have no proves of this the just keep your mouth shut, you are making false allegations.

    The truth is when it is not the jilbab that makes them different, is the fact that they do not interact with others who do not wear jilbab, they prefer to stay within their exclusive community.

  27. Niamh Piperman says:

    Mohammed Khafi,

    First I would like to address you last point that you ”

    do not study them to argue with anybody, but you were the one who

    questioned my views so I am defending them. I hasten to add they they are just my views, based on study of different sources,

    I don’t ask anybody to believe them or to follow them unless they research the sources themselves and make up their own minds.”

    The fact that you made you initial claim, and I quote

    “The Jews were given Torah, but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel but follow the Gospels”

    on a public forum indicates that you do indeed ask us to believe it. Second, I (and not you as you claim) am the one defending something initially, that is again, your claim that the Holy books fo the Jews and the Christians are spurious. Would you sit silent if someone said the same about the Holy Quran?

    Anyway, that is a minor issue. Let me address your previous points.

    How can you speculate that the true Gospel was verbal and not written down?

    From Gospel and from Al Quran:

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. 4:171

    Do Christians not refer to him as The Word?

    Yes, So? Why does that mean only verbal? Are not these things on the screen or on paper also your Word and my word?

    As you asked in an earlier comment, do you not think that they are afraid of the Wrath of God? If they are capable of “cutting bits out”, what makes you think that the priests and heirachy of the early Church were immune from “sticking things in”?

    Because no one ‘stuck’ anything in. All the beliefs where firmly established prior to the canonisation of Scripture.

    Also, contrary to you previous statement,

    “The earlier dated synoptic Gospels, those by Mathew, Mark and Luke, are generally in agreement on this, depicting Jesus as man with some god like qualities, but there appear to be from the same source with many similar if not exactly worded passages, but the later Gospel of John which is in a completely different style of writing is the only one which categorically states that Jesus is God.”

    It is not only the Gospel of John the refers explicitly to Jesus as God or the Son of God.

    Mat 14:33 – ‘And those in the boat worshipped him saying, “Truly you are the Son of God”.

    Mat 16:15-18 – “He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.”

    Mat 17: 3-5 “Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I will make three dwellings here, one for you one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, “This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!”

    Mark 1: 11 “And a voice came form heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” (See also Luke 3: 22)

    Mark 5: 6 – 9 “When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him; and he shouted at the top of his voice,

    “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God” I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” for he had said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” (see also Luke 8:28)

    Luke 1: 30-32 “The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear as son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David.

    and again in Luke 1: 35.

    And then in Acts (Written by Luke around the same time as the Gospels)

    Acts 9: 19-20 “For several days he [Saul, NP] was with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God“.

    Not really, the revelations to Prophet Mohammed, were dictated to professional memorisers, who were prolific at that time in Arabia, as the written language was at an early stage,

    Everybody was a professional memoriser – the Jews the Greeks, that’s how history was transmitted.

    I would take issue with you on that point, whilst Jesus’s followers during his lifetime may have numbered in their thousands, I believe that the vast majority were from the underclasses, the downtrodden and oppressed, criminals, prostitues, fishermen, farm labourers, carpenters etc, hardly the clerical classes of their time, I don’t think that many of them would be able to read and write?

    Maybe so, but

    1) Luke was a docter,

    Paul was educated under Gamiliel – a highly renowned Rabbi,

    Matthew was a tax collector – he must keep accurate records,

    Mark – Tradition says he came from a wealthy family based in Jerusalem and probably well-educated

    John – tradition says his family had influence, even access to a High Priestly family, hence Peter getting into the courtyard on the night Jesus was arrested

    In Acts 25-26 King Agrippa and Governor Festus accuse Paul of being “over-educated”

    Steven was well versed in the Torah

    2) isn’t it wonderful that God Almighty should reveal himself to such downtrodden and lower class people?!

    But to say that “

    I don’t think that many of them would be able to read and write

    ” is an assumption which gives no weight to your argument.

    What about their ability to memorise?

    If you can not read or write, then like a blind person whose other senses are extraordinarily fine-tuned, then those who are illiterate (I will take your liberty and make an assumption myself) we could expect to have extra fine-tuned memories.

    There is also the issue historiograpic evidence of Jesus asking anybody to write down his life and saying, not even his Disciples!

    Why does that matter? The fact of the matter is, things were written down. Which brings me to an important point –

    You and I will, it seems, simply go around in circles but for to acknowledge a fundamental difference between the Jewish and Christian concept of revelation and the Islamic concept of revelation.

    We Jews and Christians throughout the ages acknowledge a One, Almighty, Pure and Perfect God whose wisdom is above all mere mortals – Isaiah 55:9 –
    “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughs”.

    God Almighty is so pure and perfect that we cannot hope to draw near to Him via our own efforts.

    However, God Almighty is also a wonderfully Merciful God who in His infinate mercy accomodates Himself to us, that is He mercifully brings Himself down to our level and reveals Himself to us through human agents – through the prohpets and the apostles whom we acknowledge to be mere humans capable of sin.

    As such, God has revealed His word to us through the writings of these people. And as humans, these people wrote in their own styles. That is why the Bible has various styles of writing – poetry, imagery, literal fact, dreams, etc.

    Isn’t it wonderful that God should make use of the diversity of human talent to reveal Himself?

    The Gospels tell a story which modern historians acknowledge to be very fine historical accounts of the highest standard. God reveals Himself through this story. The fact that there are four different accounts of the same story simply reflects the
    fact of these different writing styles PLUS the fact that the different authors chose to describe slightly different facts. Put all the accounts together and you see the God Almighty has ensured we are given a bigger picture. the accounts complement each other.

    Hence the apparent differences between the Gospels accounts – The guard at the foot fo the Cross says in one account, “Truly this is the Son of God” and in another accoutn he is quoted “Truly this man is innocent”. Contradictory? No – complementary.

    The difference here is that Muslims believe that the Quran is the EXACT word of God, ie, only the Arabic version is God’s word and any translations cease to be God’s word. Unfortunately, that makes the presence of even the most minute errors – punctuation, spelling and a possible missing verse, indicative of the flaw in this concept.

    We Jews and Christians, through God’s Mercy have been spared that burden. God has sent us a message of Salvation. Just because the Holy Scriptures do not always apparently add up to a perfect transliteration of God’s verbal word as the Quran supposedly does, does NOT in the slightest way mean that the important fundamental message of God is altered.

    When you tell a story in one way, and someone fails to understand, what do you do? You reword your story to accommodate his limitations.

    Does that mean your fundamental message has changed, just because the words are different?

    God in his mercy accommodates himself to our limitations. But God in his Almighty sovereignty ensures that his message is never lost.

    Therein lies the fundamental difference which makes it impossible for Muslims to see eye-to-eye with Jews and Christians.

    Peace.

  28. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niamh, may I call you Niamh? Said:

    your claim that the Holy books fo the Jews and the Christians are spurious. Would you sit silent if someone said the same about the Holy Quran?

    I didn’t say that they were spurious, I said I felt they they had been embellished or changed, I did however say that I felt that the original Scriptures, either in word or book, were from God. You cannot deny that Talmud, which the orthodox Jewish people use is manmade, it was the result of great debate amongst the Jewish Scholars, which to this day has never stopped.
    As to the Gospels well, whilst I concede that there may be difference in the stories and how they were told, and more specifically what the writer was trying to convey, I cannot believe that they are the true word of Jesus or God when they have grave differences in things which should be the same if they were eye witness accounts, such as Jesus’s last words.

    Mark “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (15:34)
    Matthew [same as in Mark] (Mt 27:46)
    Luke “You will be with me in Paradise” (23:43); “Father, into your hands I commend my Spirit” (23:46)
    John “Behold your son; behold you mother” (19:26f); “I am thirsty” (19:28); “It is finished” (19:30)

    I would challenge anybody to show any significant difference in the Arabic Quran, from its earliest days, as I have said before, there are some diacritical marks, which have been added but this was because the Arabic Script was changing and developing, these accent marks are insignificant, like a dot on an i and a cross on a t. Where many problems arise is that translations into languages other than Arabic, have corrupted in many cases the original meaning of Al Quran, translators have translated the original to reflect their own understanding or beliefs. Please feel free to challenge any translations, furthermore I would love more people to challenge Sunnah and Hadith traditions and stories, which is what I myself do.

    It is not only the Gospel of John the refers explicitly to Jesus as God or the Son of God.

    In fact “Son of God” is used a number of times in the old testament, as the writers of the Gospels must have been fully aware:

    The word “son” was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation, but other close connexion or intimate relationship. Thus, “a son of strength” was a hero , a warrior, “son of wickedness” a wicked man, “sons of pride” wild beasts, “son of possession” a possessor, “son of pledging” a hostage, “son of lightning” a swift bird, “son of death” one doomed to death, “son of a bow” an arrow, “son of Belial” a wicked man, “sons of prophets” disciples of prophets etc. The title “son of God” was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called “sons of God” (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: “And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me” (Exodus 4:22 sq.).

    Just because somebody is decribed as “Son of God” this should not be taken literally, as these examples show.

    If you can not read or write, then like a blind person whose other senses are extraordinarily fine-tuned, then those who are illiterate (I will take your liberty and make an assumption myself) we could expect to have extra fine-tuned memories.

    Rather a long jump you are taking there, I wouldn’t say that the illiterates that I know would be reliable memorisers.

    You and I will, it seems, simply go around in circles but for to acknowledge a fundamental difference between the Jewish and Christian concept of revelation and the Islamic concept of revelation.

    I don’t see any conflict here over concept of Revelation at all, but why try and bring the Jewish people into this, they certainly don’t believe your Gospels are true, they don’t recognise that Jesus was even carrying a message and they will not even acknowledge the special place of Jesus.

    Al Quran is the only Scripture or Revelation which recognises that all Abrahamic peoples were given Messages and Messengers by God, and it is the only one which says its followers have to recognise all of them. Although I hasten to say that most of it’s followers don’t! It is also the only one which is not exclusionary, It clearly states that there are followers of all the Abrahamic messengers who are praising God and who have nothing to fear.

    We Jews and Christians throughout the ages acknowledge a One, Almighty, Pure and Perfect God whose wisdom is above all mere mortals

    Here you go again, us against you! Here I am trying to promote a belief that all scriptures are from the same God and if followed as originally given will lead to harmony amongst religion and understanding amongst people, and you keep ganging up on me with the Jewish People, who as I pointed out earlier don’t believe in your Jesus as the “Son of God”, don’t beleieve in your Gospels, and certainly don’t believe in your Trinity, and on that subject, Those who follow Al Quran also believe in “One, Almighty, Pure and Perfect God whose wisdom is above all mere mortals!”
    But we also believe in his oneness!.

    Isn’t it wonderful that God should make use of the diversity of human talent to reveal Himself?

    Yes, doesn’t that make you realise that he loves diversity, and accepts all who believe in him? Not just those who believe that they can obtain salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?

    The Gospels tell a story which modern historians acknowledge to be very fine historical accounts of the highest standard.

    There are many fine historical accounts of Indonesian History in the 1960’s But how many of them are true, Bapak and his cronies made sure that we have only been indoctrinated with his version of the events, not necessarily the truth though is it?

    The difference here is that Muslims believe that the Quran is the EXACT word of God, ie, only the Arabic version is God’s word and any translations cease to be God’s word. Unfortunately, that makes the presence of even the most minute errors – punctuation, spelling and a possible missing verse, indicative of the flaw in this concept.

    Where is the flaw in the concept? I can only see possible flaws in the human implementation?

    We Jews and Christians, through God’s Mercy have been spared that burden. God has sent us a message of Salvation. Just because the Holy Scriptures do not always apparently add up to a perfect transliteration of God’s verbal word as the Quran supposedly does, does NOT in the slightest way mean that the important fundamental message of God is altered.

    Here we go again with the Christians/Jews tag team against Muslims. Lets just look to see if there are any problems with your argument here shall we?

    We Jews and Christians, through God’s Mercy have been spared that burden. God has sent us a message of Salvation.

    First I would ask what burden? I don’t see any burden.

    Secondly you say that you collectively have been given a Message of Salvation, well that is nice to know, except don’t the Jews beleive that unless you are one of the “Chosen People”, one of the “Nation of Israel”, you will never get to Heaven, And don’t you as a Christian believe that unless, somebody has accepted “Jesus as their Saviour” that they will never get to heaven. Doesn’t sound like the word of God to me, try this one:

    “Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabi’een, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” Quran 2:62

    Now that is God like! Everybody has a place!

    God in his mercy accommodates himself to our limitations. But God in his Almighty sovereignty ensures that his message is never lost.

    That is what I am trying to tell you, if you compare all scripture or revelation you will eventually be able to see the truth!

    Therein lies the fundamental difference which makes it impossible for Muslims to see eye-to-eye with Jews and Christians.

    Again with the Tag team, what is this WWF?

    You have either not been reading my comments or just don’t want to understand, I believe that all scriptures are relevant, I believe that if we just just look for what God is trying to teach us, we can find peace, tolerance and harmony, I have rejected the false teachings of Islam, the Sunnah and Hadith, and I find that with the correct attitude and with research as to the context of verse and with reference to classical Arabic dictionaries I am able to accept all of Al Quran’s teachings regarding previous scriptures without any hatred or animosity or violence or intolerance. In fact this applies I find to any religion which teaches tolerance. I think you still have some way to go.

    As I said before any religion which teaches that it is the exclusive and the only way cannot possibly be from God. Elevating yourself to be the holders of the only truth is placing yourselves at the same level as God Him/Herself.

    Peace

  29. Niamh Piperman says:

    MK

    Just because the Jews don’t believe in Jesus doesn’t mean they are not of the same tradition as Christians. Christianity is Judaism but the only difference is Christians beleive the Jewish prophecies to be fulfilled in Yeshua.

    Second, no Christian says Jesus is a ‘literal’ Son of God to use your words if by that you mean as if God the Father married and gave birth to a son. Nor is Mary a part of the Trinity as some Muslims have claimed Christianity believes.

    Why so defensive? No one os ganging up. Make a claim about someone’s Holy scriptues, expect a response.

    The lets just agree to disagree. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. I do not agree with you nor you with me.

    Nevertheless I continue to study your religion as I do my own. At least we can both (hopefully) agree that we have a common ‘enemy’ in the form of atheist humanist social science. I would only appeal to you not to place too much trust in those scholars whose research into the Christian scriptures is based on a humanist, closed order cosmology, ie, that God has no place in the working out of history.

    Peace and thank you for a challenging and though-provoking discussion.

    NP

  30. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Niamh, again I hope you don’t mind, this form of address, using your full name just seems to formal!

    Christianity is Judaism but the only difference is Christians believe the Jewish prophecies to be fulfilled in Yeshua.

    I could say that a true Muslim, if he is true to Al Quran, is a mixture of Jew, Christian, and Muslim. He is instructed to follow all Prophets and their Messages, without differentiating between them. For me there is one path, and that is the path of God, not the colourations that religious practices put on it. Anything that differentiates us in religion to me is a doubtfull practice.

    Second, no Christian says Jesus is a ‘literal’ Son of God to use your words if by that you mean as if God the Father married and gave birth to a son.

    Do you really think I think that! 😉

    Nor is Mary a part of the Trinity as some Muslims have claimed Christianity believes.

    I am afraid I have never seem such a thing stated, although knowing the ignorance and narrow mindedness of some of my fellow Muslims I could believe it as being the sort of thing which they would say.

    The lets just agree to disagree. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. I do not agree with you nor you with me.

    As it states in Al Quran:

    “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion” 109:6

    Nevertheless I continue to study your religion as I do my own. At least we can both (hopefully) agree that we have a common ‘enemy’ in the form of atheist humanist social science. I would only appeal to you not to place too much trust in those scholars whose research into the Christian scriptures is based on a humanist, closed order cosmology, ie, that God has no place in the working out of history.

    I think we have much more in common than you would possibly care to admit, I am not a Mainstream Muslim as you probably have realised and I have a deep commitment to “The Straight Path of God”, which is based on tolerance, understanding, reason and learning, I fully support human rights especially with regard to women and children, I do not believe in compulsion in religion nor appearance over substance.

    Thank you my friend, I have enjoyed the last few days,

    Peace.

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