UnIslamic Behaviour

Dec 27th, 2006, in News, by

The sharia police of Aceh have begun a month long campaign against unIslamic behaviour.

Unmarried couples being together without a chaperone or an acceptable reason are the main targets of the campaign, says sharia police (Wilayatul Hisbah, WH) spokesman Wirzaini Usman. Some success has already been met with:

Since the launch of the operation on the 20th we have arrested nine people for breaking Islamic law.

Although the offenders could have faced flogging with a rattan cane leniency has so far been shown and they have been let off with a warning.


Radical Islam’s Rules: The Worldwide Spread Of Extreme Sharia Law.

Meanwhile Raja Radan, the head of the Banda Aceh Sharia office, discussed the issue of beauty parlours and hairdressing salons, after having just completed a raid on one:

Beauty parlors should announce that they only receive women and staff should wear proper Islamic clothes.

In Indonesia salons can often be fronts for brothels so Radan asked parlour owners to remove any room partitions so that no suspicion would arise that concealed areas were being used for un-Islamic activities. In one raid on a salon five staff were arrested and a number of used condoms and empty bottles of alcoholic drinks were discovered. antara


55 Comments on “UnIslamic Behaviour”

  1. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    You really need to think a little more about what you are posting.

    individualism

    Were The Prophet or his Companions, not individualists? They didn’t follow the mainstream thinking of the time, if they had, we would not have Al Quran and the Arabs would still be circling the Ka’aba worshipoing all of their multitude of Gods and Goddesses

    consumerism

    Unless you are suggesting that we all go back to a primitive agrarian system, and grow all our own food and make all our own clothes from our own natural resources, then I am afraid that consumerism is here to stay. It has been here in varying degrees from ancient times and is not a construct of the Evil West. Rampant consumerism is another matter indeed and needs to be controlled, but most of what I see in Indonesia is electronic consumer items, and transportation devices, mostly from China, Taiwan and Japan. again not the Evil West.

    capitalism

    An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production.

    Unless I am sorely mistaken The Prophet and his first wife Khadija were traders, running a business based on the above definition of Capitalism. Again not a construct of the Evil West, but a worldwide phenomenon.
    You do of course realise that the alternative to Capitalism is State Ownership of Businesses, and that is commonly called Communism, I am sure that you don’t want that?

    secularism

    Secularity is the state of being without religious or spiritual qualities

    I think you know me better than to think that is what I desire. What I want is a secular government, which is not influenced by religion, so that it can concentrate on what needs to be done for the good of Indonesia, without outside influence. Religion and Politics need to be totally seperated, you should clearly be able to see what is happening in America with the rise of the Religious Rightwing. Religion and Spirituality are for the Individual, and have no need to be regulated by or influence the workings of government.

    free sex, etc.

    Again not a construct of the Evil West, but a worldwide phenomenon, this is not a new issue, it has been around since the time of creation. In fact although it is not ‘FREE” sex per se, prostitution is called the worlds oldest profession.

    From an Arab/Islamist/Hadith perspective of course they don’t have to worry about free sex. They are probably already too tired having the right to marry up to four wives, who can be arbitrarily divorced at any time and replaced with another four, the rights to have sex with their slaves/servants, Mut’ah, and Misyar marriages. Really who needs free sex when you can have Sharia/Hadith Sex? And totally guilt fee as you can hide you lust behind religious teachings! Alhamdulillah, Allahu Akbar!

  2. Tomaculum says:

    Hassan,

    Better MAYBE than SURE destruction under secularism, as we can see everyday.

    Really? What kind of destruction and which causality connection does it have with secularism. Please define it. I’m inquiring.

    Maybe you mean moral destruction? Then I take it that you know, that a social disturbance doesn’t have any direct connection to a secularism.

    Hassan,
    Consumerism isn’t an end product of capitalism. The consumerism of the egypt pharaons were the end product of the egypt capitalism? Or the consumerism in the Majapahit era?
    Hassan, consumerism is one of the preconditions of the capitalism and the capitalism aggravate this character (a.e. by advertisements) to feed their thrive. Consumerism is the character of everybody. If you buy a third shirt just for fun (and not because you need it) then it is a consumerism, isn’t it?

    About free sex: tell me what you know about free sex in the western world (not what you’ve heard or read, like one of our blogger friends once said). Tell me your definition about adultery and tell me about your definition of moral, about good moral and bad moral.

    Well, IF (hypothetically speaking) we consider the western culture as a man made thing, and Islam is indeed the teaching of God (remember the IF?), then yes, the answer must be so. Why? Humans (and their culture) are full of mistakes but God is perfect. The religion (which God had devised for us) MUST be perfect, but the followers are not. Again, hypothetically.

    No, Hassan, Islam doesn’t teach anybody, that the west is bad and Islam is the best. Show me the parts of Islamic teaching about it (not that what the clerics and the zealots interprete!). You say it, Hassan, the religion is hypothetically perfect. And which religion do you mean? Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, ….? Oh, sorry off course the Islam, isn’t it? And the other aren’t? Garbages?

    Electricity, computer, medicaments etc., etc?

    Did those things fall into the category of western values?

    Yes, surely. They are parts of the western way of life and were and is invented on the base of this!

    No, we weren’t discussing about technology, but about the values. And they are parts of the values.

    You wrote that individualism is a western garbage. So you like the uniformity and the subordination of individual development. Why do you use a product of individualism? Computer?
    🙂

  3. 1ndra says:

    What bothering me only :

    – Free sex cult and its globalitation mostly in movies, why the hell most western’s need a portion of sex clips?
    – The injustice between Muslim and non Muslim ones. Ah, maybe just extremely Islamophobia.
    – Double standard.
    – Racialist, I hope its diminished now.
    – Drug.

    But those are mostly maybe because they lost their connection to their religion.

  4. Ihaknt says:

    1ndra

    Afghan is one of the biggest drug exporters. Some of the best opium comes from that land apart from South America. Many middle easter countries have drug problem too. and what religion or belief do they have? Islam. Taking drugs has nothing to do with religion. Being racist? it’s everywhere, even Indonesians are sometimes racist towards each other, pribumi vs chinese, javanese vs maduranese, etc. it’s not just between the whites and the yellow, blacks, or any colors. But i find that the white people are less racist towards me than the Asians. Luckily I’ve hardly been being racist against in my life.

  5. 1ndra says:

    I mean about racist is they treat some people like low people, I mean negro.

  6. Dimp says:

    Hi Indra,

    Racists are everywhere, but at least this is changing for the better in the US and other western world. I hope this is also changing in Indonesia. But looking at your statement regarding westerners that you judge as being bad people, isn’t your statement shows that you are also a racist?

    And Ihaknt is right, Afghanistan was the biggest opium exporter under the Taliban regime, actually one way that the Americans used to detect their activity is by monitoring the price of opium, when the Taliban is planning something then they will flood the market with opium which mean a decrease in the price. Unfortunately one way that they smuggle the drug out of their country is by doing it through Iran, thus the border town in Iran is one of the worst drug passage in the world, there were a lot of men, women, and children who are addicted to drugs.

    This is my friend unfortunately is the truth, crimes have no boundaries, no religions, there are bad people regardless of race or religions.

  7. 1ndra says:

    Yeah, I have heard some Muslim in American being captured because they’re doing shalat.
    A very good misunderstanding.

    And drug is not just opium, there are marijuana, ss, heroin etc.

  8. Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi:

    -Individualism. I was referring to the ‘every man for himself’ behavior currently plaguing our society. Indonesia’s original mentality is ‘gotong royong’. Arabs didn’t brought that value with them, either. Suspect: Globalization. Advocate: The evil evil west. 😀

    -Consumerism. Yes perhaps i should have explained specifically of what I meant, rampant consumerism, as you said. Or perhaps ‘materialism’ is more appropriate.
    Materialism originated from capitalism, which worshiped money as god. Money is what makes the world go round (instead of God). Rampant consumerism and materialism had eluded people, it had made them do anything for money. Is money the reason why we lived?

    Let’s put it this way, who will benefit the most with the resurgence of worldwide consumerism and materialism? Yes, global international corporations, from the west. They will need to push those agendas relentlessly, at all cost.

    -Capitalism. Tell me Khafi, what made current global capitalism work? Money. Where did it circulate the most? The west. From where did they suck more money from? Poorer third world countries. Yes khafi, we must admit that capitalism had created a huge disparity of income in the world wide economy. Capitalism is merciless and capitalists doesn’t care what the result of their ‘sucking them dry’ policy on other people in other parts of the world.

    Lastly, capitalism is built on and used the system of interest (riba) as their backbone. Is taking interest halal, khafi? Do you want to live in a world with the interest system as the dominant economic agent?

    -Secularism. Did you see Muhammad (pbuh) as the head of the state of Islam with Medina as the capital, practiced secularism when he ruled?

    From an Arab/Islamist/Hadith perspective of course they don’t have to worry about free sex. They are probably already too tired having the right to marry up to four wives.

    You do know that Quran 4:129 referred to Muhammad’s (pbuh) preference towards Aisyah of all his other wives, don’t you? So Allah SWT reminded him to at least try to be fair to all his wives, even though Allah SWT knew he will not be able to do so (even if he wished it ardently). That is why the word used is wife instead of women.

    M.H. Shakir : “And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, even though you may wish (it), but be not disinclined (from one) with total disinclination, so that you leave her as it were in suspense; and if you effect a reconciliation and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

    M. Pickthall : “Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.”

    Mohsin Khan : “You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire, so do not incline too much to one of them (by giving her more of your time and provision) so as to leave the other hanging (i.e. neither divorced nor married). And if you do justice, and do all that is right and fear Allah by keeping away from all that is wrong, then Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.”

    Only Yusuf Ali uses the women instead of wives.

    Context, khafi.

    ________________________

    Tomaculum: What had failed is the system which is lead by secularism. If an organization or a corporation failed to achieve it’s objectives, the blame must be laid on the leaders and the system which those organizations had used.

    We can’t single out consumerism, materialism, or capitalism as the root of our problems, but we can tell if the system is not working and had failed us. The system is what had governed all those things.

    Since our independence 61 years ago, can you consider Indonesia as a success story? Okay, we can blame Soekarno and Soeharto, but one thing that those despots have in common is that both used the system of secularism in governing our country.

    You say it, Hassan, the religion is hypothetically perfect. And which religion do you mean? Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, “¦.? Oh, sorry off course the Islam, isn’t it? And the other aren’t? Garbages?

    Nope. Only God knows which one is the ‘One’. No one can dominate the truth regarding these matters. Saying our religion must be it, is both selfish and ignorant. All we can do is to keep our faith and hope that the religion that we believed in is the correct one.

  9. Tomaculum says:

    Hassan,

    Tomaculum: What had failed is the system which is lead by secularism. If an organization or a corporation failed to achieve it’s objectives, the blame must be laid on the leaders and the system which those organizations had used.

    Do you speak now about Indonesia? Really? What about the succesful and effective secularism in Europe? Germany? Netherlands? Can we really just blame the malfunction of the Indonesian? Nowadays you still find secularism (and the beginning of democracy) in Indonesia. And the economical and political situations are not jet stable. Blame the secularism? Or are there also other factors slowing down the development? Which non-secular/clerical system is more succesfull than secularism?

    Since our independence 61 years ago, can you consider Indonesia as a success story? Okay, we can blame Soekarno and Soeharto, but one thing that those despots have in common is that both used the system of secularism in governing our country.

    What about looking in the mirror and try to find our contribution to this “failure” of system?
    As I compare, the economical situation in Indonesia is far far more better than the situation for 30-40 years. The political situation is more stable then in that time. Indonesia is now still in a transission, Hassan, what do you expect. Do something for your country, help it to be better.

    Nope. Only God knows which one is the ‘One’. No one can dominate the truth regarding these matters. Saying our religion must be it, is both selfish and ignorant. All we can do is to keep our faith and hope that the religion that we believed in is the correct one.

    Then why did you talk about trinity doctrine (in an other topic).
    Doctrin is a more or less scientifical system of views/opinions or declarations, frequently with the pretension to owe the general validity. If you say “trinity doctrin”, then you implicate, that it is a human opinion.

    You know surely this:

    A knife is just a knife. It is usefull in the hand of a cook, but it is frightening in the hand of a killer.

    The best religion can be frightening if the followers are fanatic hater.

  10. Ihaknt says:

    1ndra.

    Are you sure the African American are treated badly? Some are probably not behaving themselves. And why are they ‘low’? they are not low, they are equal. they are different. Don’t you see that many black artists, musicians, are now populating the music charts? Many black people have also done very well internationally. Muhammad Ali, Nelson Mandela, etc.

    But racism is everywhere. Although I am hoping with so many mix marriages these days that in a few decades these ‘mix’ generations will be less racist towards each other. I must admit I like being Asian, because then when I do a racist remark with my white friends they just say that I am racist towards my own kind and that it’s fine with them because they don’t always like their own kind either.

    The next one 1ndra is that from opium you can then make many sorts of drugs. opium is like the mother of the many other drugs pretty much. it can also be used as anasthetic. Hence, when you are very sick or just have had a surgery the doctors give you morphins to numb the pain.

    Dimp, they ARE still one of the main exporters. In the end those Afghans (of course not all in the community) need money to survive, buy food, clothes, etc.

    Also, don’t always believe what you hear. Not all that you hear from the medias are true. Many Muslim still can lead a decent life and follow their religion in western countries. I’m one example. unfortunately some small groups that have caused uproar – read: fanatics – make the others suspicious towards the peace-loving, harmless Muslims.

  11. Dimp says:

    Hi Ihaknt,

    Unfortunately these fanatics albeit they are minority, seems to represents the whole Moslems communities, and that is what I hate, they are actually destroying the Islam that I know, Islam that = peace.

    Just heard on the radio regarding another idiot, here’s the news:

    CONTROVERSIAL Islamic cleric Taj al-Din al-Hilali has reportedly claimed Muslims have more right to be in Australia than people of Anglo-Saxon descent because their ancestors were not convicts.

    Anglo-Saxon Australians had arrived on convict ships, he said, “while we (Muslims) paid for our tickets”.

    Sheik HilalI also described westerners as “the world’s biggest liars” and said there was a media conspiracy against him.

    The sheik made the comments in an appearance on Egyptian television and they were broadcast on Channel 7 news tonight.

    He also defended remarks he made last year in which he compared immodestly-dressed women to pieces of meat. He originally claimed he had been quoted out of context.

    The sheik’s spokesman in Sydney, Keysar Trad, has already apologised for the sheik’s remarks, which have been condemned by Government backbencher Brownyn Bishop.

    I wonder what he does for a living, or is he still on the dole.

  12. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    Individualism, is not the problem in this country, lack of it maybe! From what I observe the fault is egotism, selfishness and greed. I am an individualist but that has not prevented me from helping others in my community.

    Consumerism. I agree with you that rampant consumerism or as you say ‘materialism’ is not good for our society, but people here in general are not overly materialistic are they? Most of them don’t have the resources to be so.
    I don’t think materialism originated from capitalism, I would suggest it was the other way round, traders did not create a need for things they just supplied the demand.

    No, of course money is not the reason we live, but it is difficult to live without it isn’t it!

    Global International Corporations are not just from the West Hassan.

    Please re-read the definition of Capitalism Hassan “An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production” The fact that there are deficiencies in the system is not because of Capitalism itself, I agree with you that there are serious problems in the worldwide economy, and huge disparities between first world and third world countries, but there are also huge disparities between the Gulf States and the Third world. I don’t hear you complaining about that?

    Riba is a huge sin, but until such time as a Banking System is available to take it’s place I cannot see any alternative. The Sharia Banking System is just as costly to borrowers as the Capitalist System, Interest Charges are just replaced with Administrative Charges, it is the same end result only hidden behind supposedly religious practices. All I can do on a personal level is help those around me who need money and ensure that I do not ask for Interest on the loaned sum.

    Secularism. Did you see Muhammad (pbuh) as the head of the state of Islam with Medina as the capital, practiced secularism when he ruled?

    No, but he had the personal assistance of Allah to guide him didn’t he, and he was also following what was revealed to him by Allah, not some fabrications made up 200-250 years after his death, which have been used for centuries to control and subjugate the Ummah in general and Women in particular

    You do know that Quran 4:129 referred to Muhammad’s (pbuh) preference towards Aisyah of all his other wives, don’t you? So Allah SWT reminded him to at least try to be fair to all his wives, even though Allah SWT knew he will not be able to do so (even if he wished it ardently). That is why the word used is wife instead of women.

    So if The Prophet was personally warned by Allah that he couldn’t be fair, what chance does any ordinary man have? Don’t forget that being fair is one of the conditions of Polygamy.

    That doesn’t negate the point that according to the rules that you follow, everything I said in the comment above applies to Muslim men does it?

    The right to marry up to four wives, who can be arbitrarily divorced at any time and replaced with another four, the rights to have sex with their slaves/servants, Mut’ah, and Misyar marriages.

  13. Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi:

    “Most of them don’t have the resources to be so.”

    But the 10% who owned 90% of our national wealth apparently do, and apparently are practicing rampant consumerism. An example which some of the poorer ones tried to immitate as hard as they can.

    “traders did not create a need for things they just supplied the demand.”

    Traders need to maintain the demand. They don’t just sit around and wait for the demand to come to them. Most of them aggressively (within the extent of their ability) tried to manipulate consumer demand to suit their needs. Aggressive campaigning, creating trends, and manipulation of the culture of their consumers are some examples. And yes, they tried their hardest to create or preserve a condusive condition for their business: the existence of (rampant) consumerism in the society as the end user of their products.

    “No, of course money is not the reason we live, but it is difficult to live without it isn’t it!”

    We can’t tell that to those who practically ‘worshiped’ money. Putting all of their live’s effort into making money. (extreme) Capitalists?

    “Global International Corporations are not just from the West Hassan.”

    Almost all of them are. 🙂 They are the real winners of globalization, and the rest of the world are all loosers.

    “but there are also huge disparities between the Gulf States and the Third world.”

    Yes, a rather un-Islamic way to spend your God-given oil money, huh? At least they did it by selling their oil, rather than sucking other countries dry like what those multi national corporations (of the west, in case you forgot, :D) did.

    “No, but he had the personal assistance of Allah to guide him didn’t he, and he was also following what was revealed to him by Allah, not some fabrications made up 200-250 years after his death.”

    So if Muslims only followed the Quran, you would support the Islamic system (so to speak) to govern our nations, and get rid of those man made western style values completely? I sincerely doubt it. 🙂

    “So if The Prophet was personally warned by Allah that he couldn’t be fair, what chance does any ordinary man have? Don’t forget that being fair is one of the conditions of Polygamy.”

    Reverse logic. We don’t have to be ulimately and 100% absolutely fair to the wives. Because we simply can’t! We must only try our hardest to be fair to the wives. If the Prophet (pbuh) couldn’t do it (he is human after all), then all of us won’t be able to do it. Only Allah has the ultimate and 100% qualities of fairness.

    Allah SWT told us to be fair in everything, not just in marriage. But can we do that (in 100% absolutism)? No! Allah SWT only demanded us to try as hard as we could to be fair.

    2:286 “On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns…”

    Don’t take the hadith as your source, but even the historians tells us that in Prophet Muhammad’s lifetime, and those of the sahabats, and the four rightly guided caliphs, polygamy is a common practice. It was never banned by any of them. Now, are you going to say you don’t believe in the historians as well? Yes, we don’t need history anyway 🙂

    “Don’t forget that being fair is one of the conditions of Polygamy.”

    Remember brother Khafi, Sura 4:129 is the base of your argument for saying “being fair is one of the conditions of Polygamy.” Now that we can see it was placed a bit out of context, is that argument still valid?

  14. 1ndra says:

    Fair here means the primaly need like those need to live, like food clothes places.

  15. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    But the 10% who owned 90% of our national wealth apparently do, and apparently are practicing rampant consumerism.

    I would suggest that most of this 10% are not Muslim, are you suggesting that they should be forced to follow your ideals?

    And yes, they tried their hardest to create or preserve a condusive condition for their business

    I think we already have sufficient numbers of unemployed without reducing the numbers of people in the workforce, which is what reducing consumerism would do. Until we can come up with an alternative solution for these people, what can we do?

    We can’t tell that to those who practically ‘worshiped’ money. Putting all of their live’s effort into making money. (extreme) Capitalists?

    As long as they are using this money for the benefit of the poor and disposessed, they are commiting no sin as far as I know:

    And in their property was a portion due to him who begs and to him who is denied (good). 51:19

    And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty on the day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flonks and their backs”. 9:34-35

    However good things, material wealth, and capital ( gold, silver, land, horses, homes, etc) are not forbidden by Allah:

    Beautified for mankind is love of the joys (that come) from women and offspring; and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and horses branded (with their mark), and cattle and land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode. 3:14

    So if Muslims only followed the Quran, you would support the Islamic system (so to speak) to govern our nations, and get rid of those man made western style values completely? I sincerely doubt it.

    My idea of heaven on earth is a true Islamic Deen, but that doesn’t include Arabic culture or values either! 😉 A deen where all are equal and free, where true human rights are upheld, where intelligence and reasoning are considered of value.

    We don’t have to be ulimately and 100% absolutely fair to the wives. Because we simply can’t! We must only try our hardest to be fair to the wives. If the Prophet (pbuh) couldn’t do it (he is human after all), then all of us won’t be able to do it.

    Remember brother Khafi, Sura 4:129 is the base of your argument for saying “being fair is one of the conditions of Polygamy.” Now that we can see it was placed a bit out of context, is that argument still valid?

    No, the base of my argument for no polygamy was actually:

    And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. 4:3

    Sura 4:129 is about being fair and just and I think is very much in context. I repeat my question, If The Prophet was not able to be fair and just how can any ordinary man meet the conditions? Or are you saying that it is all to do with a mans fear of being unfair and unjust? Are you saying that if he is not fearful of punishment from God about his unequal treatment of his wives then it is ok to practice polygamy?

  16. Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi:

    “I would suggest that most of this 10% are not Muslim, are you suggesting that they should be forced to follow your ideals?”

    In which part of my arguments did i ever blamed the non-Muslims? I blamed the system, the capitalistic secular system we adopted which had resulted in the staggering disparity of income in our country. I don’t think that under an Islamic system such condition will exist. At least it won’t be as bad as it is now.

    “I think we already have sufficient numbers of unemployed without reducing the
    numbers of people in the workforce, which is what reducing consumerism would do. Until we can come up with an alternative solution for these people, what can we do?”

    Agreed, reluctantly. But measures must be taken to curb the side effects.

    “As long as they are using this money for the benefit of the poor and disposessed, they are committing no sin as far as I know.”

    Indeed, but only thinking about money in every single minute of your life (figuratively speaking) will prevent a person to think about and remember Allah SWT. Hence, money is the modern day ‘berhala’ in a modern capitalistic society.

    “My idea of heaven on earth is a true Islamic Deen, but that doesn’t include Arabic culture or values either! -) A deen where all are equal and free, where true human rights are upheld, where intelligence and reasoning are considered of value.”

    But what system should we use to achieve that? If a system which strictly only followed the ways of the Quran existed, surely you will follow that one, wouldn’t you?

    “Or are you saying that it is all to do with a mans fear of being unfair and unjust? Are you saying that if he is not fearful of punishment from God about his unequal treatment of his wives then it is ok to practice polygamy?”

    I think Allah SWT gave us the liberty to judge for ourselves what we fear or fear not. If He didn’t, He would’ve used a more direct and strict language, using words that strictly forbade polygamy. If a person is certain (to an acceptable extent, by his own judgment) that he can be fair (as humanly possible), then yes, of course he can do it. Insya Allah, Allah will make full of what is lacking.

    Of course he can’t be 100% certain that he will be 100% fair to the women, but tell me, is there any 100% certainty in this world?

    “but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one”

    The tone used seemed to allow our judgments.

    For example, if you agreed to come to your friend’s wedding tomorrow, then you must be quite certain that you can make it tomorrow. But are you 100% certain that you will be there tomorrow?

    Did you fear that there are certain things that could’ve prevented you from coming tomorrow? Like natural disasters, riots, and even your death? Of course such fears existed, but should that prevent you from your commitments? If our certainty about something is more than our fear, then perhaps we should do it. Insya Allah, Allah will make full of what is lacking in our conviction.

    I believe the same applies to polygamy, and that is what Sura 4:3 meant.

    “Sura 4:129 is about being fair and just and I think is very much in context.”

    Sura 4:129 is about Allah SWT reminding prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be fair to his wives, telling him try his hardest to be fair (although he will never be 100% fair). 100% fairness is not the prequisite for polygamy, being (relatively) certain that you can be (relatively) fair to them is.

    There are no absolutes in humans, aren’t there?

  17. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    In which part of my arguments did i ever blamed the non-Muslims?

    You said:
    “But the 10% who owned 90% of our national wealth apparently do, and apparently are practicing rampant consumerism”

    I realise that you didn’t say that they are predominantly non-muslin, but the fact is that they are.

    I blamed the system, the capitalistic secular system we adopted which had resulted in the staggering disparity of income in our country.

    I don’t blame the capitalist system Hassan, most of the fault is our own, the Muslim majority are less well educated and quite lazy, this is not just a characteristic here, it also applies in Singapore and Malaysia! Just look at the statistics. Even with Positive Discrimination in action in Malaysia for the Bumiputera, they still cannot compete with the non-Muslim part of the population.

    But measures must be taken to curb the side effects.

    I agree with you completely, perhaps stamping out rampant corruption and diverting the funds to education and job creation would be a good starting point?

    Indeed, but only thinking about money in every single minute of your life (figuratively speaking) will prevent a person to think about and remember Allah SWT.

    Agree with you completely!

    But what system should we use to achieve that? If a system which strictly only followed the ways of the Quran existed, surely you will follow that one, wouldn’t you?

    But whose interpretation of Al Quran Hassan? We are both staunch believers in Allahs Book and The Prophet, but we differ on so many details. 😉

    I think Allah SWT gave us the liberty to judge for ourselves what we fear or fear not. If He didn’t, He would’ve used a more direct and strict language, using words that strictly forbade polygamy. If a person is certain (to an acceptable extent, by his own judgment) that he can be fair (as humanly possible), then yes, of course he can do it. Insya Allah, Allah will make full of what is lacking.

    Agree 100% that Allah gaves us freedom of choice, but I must point out that I have never said that polygamy is not allowed, it is allowed, but the conditions can only be meet with extreme difficulty and I believe that no ordinary man in this day and age can meet those conditions.

    There are no absolutes in humans, aren’t there?

    Only if they are dead, and then we can only say that they are absolutely void of life! 🙂

  18. 1ndra says:

    Sura 4:129 is about being fair and just and I think is very much in context. I repeat my question, If The Prophet was not able to be fair and just how can any ordinary man meet the conditions? Or are you saying that it is all to do with a mans fear of being unfair and unjust? Are you saying that if he is not fearful of punishment from God about his unequal treatment of his wives then it is ok to practice polygamy?

    Being unable to be fair here means unable to be fair in loving, as Muhammad saw love Aisyah most!
    So about love, Allah has forgive him and other men too. But he must be fair in term of human nature needs…

  19. Mohammed Khafi says:

    1ndra,

    I do wish you would make up your mind:

    You said:

    Fair here means the primaly need like those need to live, like food clothes places.

    Being unable to be fair here means unable to be fair in loving, as Muhammad saw love Aisyah most!

    Both in relationship to the same verse? I guess it must be those confusing Hadith you keep reading, full of contradictions and twisted information. Better if you just stick to Al Quran 1ndra, no contradictions in there.

  20. Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi: I believe what 1ndra meant was that in a polygamous marriage, the men should only be fair to his wives in matters of the worldly needs, like money, food, clothes, housings, etc.

    The husband should not give the first wife a BMW, but tells the second wife to take a bus, for example. Or if he stayed in the first wife’s place 5 days of the week and only spend the last two on the second wife’s house. He must be fair on those matters.

    As for fairness in the matters of the heart, that is the difficult part. Even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) failed in that department (as Sura 4:129 tells us) because he loved Aisyah more than the other wives. We don’t have (and can not, really) to be fair in that department.

    Let’s be honest, even in the matter of child raising, ideally we must be fair to all of our children. But realistically, there must be one or two of them that our heart favored the most. Be it for their honesty, they obedience, etc. Are we guilty in doing that? We are guilty if we feed two of our children 3 times a day, but only feed the other child once a day, for example.

  21. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    I was just suprised that 1ndra had two different interpretations of the word “fair” for the same verse, his sources must be very adaptable or very inconsistent!

    I would suggest that fair means just that, it means dealing justly and evenly in all aspects, and not specifically with regard to material things or love!

    Even theoretically accepting 1ndra’s interpretation of 4:129 and that being unfair to wives is considered a small problem and that Allah is forgiving and merciful, why promote polygamy when if it needs Allah’s forgiveness and mercy it is obviously wrong?

    Of course not forgetting the other conditions required as well!

  22. Hassan says:

    Mohammed khafi:

    I would suggest that fair means just that, it means dealing justly and evenly in all aspects, and not specifically with regard to material things or love!

    Is that even humanly possible? 100%-ly, and not just in marriage, but in every aspects of our lives? No, surely. Have God ever asked or allowed us to do anything He knew we could not do? If He did, then was that not an act of teasing us?

    I don’t think Allah SWT ever tease humans or play with words, Khafi.

    Perhaps it is the liberals’ interpretations which had made it nearly impossible for the ordinary man to perform polygamy. The reason is because they don’t want men to commit polygamy, so then their minds searches in the Quran for the justification for their view, and surely enough, they found it.

  23. 1ndra says:

    Wew…

    Fair for human is fair in something they could reach and ‘see’.
    And human couldnt be 100% fair in something they couldnt ‘see’.

    Hassan’s is right, that was the verses means.
    Human can be fair in earthly term (Material) but couldnt be fair in heavenly term(Love), because the last is Allah’s prerogative.

    For example, we have to son, one is a good child who always listen to our advices and always doing good, always make your heart pleased.
    The other is a bad one, that always make you angry.

    Now from the situation above, who you loved much?

    But you couldnt be unfair because of that, you couldnt give your good child more time more toys more food more entertainment than the bad child and let him play alone.

    And that’s the mean from the two verses.

    Only Allah that Maha Penyayang dan Maha Adil.

  24. desi herawati says:

    I am from jakarta and i was a prostitute , i dont know my baby father the reason is my parents are very poor and i wanted to be like all my friend to have to i live like that ,sharia police should make jobs for people like me al times and there will no problem again you think all blues to to indonesia for vacation and paid sex I make money with the blues not my employer so leave me to live however me want.

  25. denese says:

    i strongly think u should try and trace all the men u slept with and do a dna test that will conclude ur answer desi herawati but sorry to hear that u dont know baby father hope u get answers soon asap

Comment on “UnIslamic Behaviour”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-20
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact