Hizbut Tahrir
Dec 28th, 2006, in News, by PatungHizbut Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) champions polygamy and rails against gender equality and domestic violence laws.
Aminah Yunus Rasyid of the Medan, North Sumatra branch of HTI said on the 19th of December during a demonstration outside the mayor’s office that the ideology of gender equality was a part of the trend towards liberalisation originating in the west that was being forced on Muslim women around the world.
About a hundred people were at the rally and they carried banners saying:
- Beware of the destruction of generations.
(Awas KKG! KKG = Kerusakan dan Kehancuran Generasi) - Polygamy is permissible, free sex is forbidden.
(Poligami Halal Vs Free Sex Haram) - Law for the destruction of Families and Households
(UU PKDRT = UU Penghancuran Keluarga dan Rumah Tangga) - Making polygamy illegal is against the law of God.
(Mengharamkan Poligami = Menentang Hukum Allah) - We’re proud to be Muslim mothers.
(Kami Bangga Menjadi Ibu Generasi Muslim)
They also performed some street theatre, a play entitled “Legalisasi Aborsi, Khitan Melanggar HAM”, Legalising Abortion and Circumcision Violates Human Rights, in which they critiqued the wrong-headed modern tendency towards allowing abortion, which they say is not permissible according to Islam, while the government strove to stamp out female circumcision, a practice which is permitted within Islam.
Aminah said that Muslim women had to be on guard against the efforts of many to portray men and women as the same, against the campaign to enact a sexual equality law and the legalisation of abortion, because these things were intended to divorce Muslims from the law of God.
We can imagine what will happen if our feminine side is lost, to the point where we no longer want to look after a house and we leave our children just because we are busy trying to feel equal with men.
(Kita bisa membayangkan apa yang akan terjadi bila sisi kefeminiman kita dihilangkan dari diri kita, sehingga kita tidak mau lagi mengurusi rumah tangga dan meninggalkan anak-anak kita hanya karena sibuk dengan urusan agar kita merasa setara dengan laki-laki. republika
)
Lampung HTI Women March.
A similar theme was heard in Bandar Lampung, Lampung on the 21st of December as about 500 women and girls of Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia protested against the liberalisation of family life, and specifically against the law on domestic violence, UU Kekerasan dalam Rumah Tangga (KDRT) and the law for the protection of children, UU Perlindungan Anak. The women claimed that both laws threaten the integrity of the family. Domestic violence, they said, should be blamed on men’s lack of understanding of their correct role within the family. metrotv
Speech by HTI Makassar Women.
In Makassar, South Sulawesi, about 500 HTI women also rallied in support of similar themes on the 22nd of December. l6
146 Comments on “Hizbut Tahrir”
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Hassan says:
Tomaculum: Why must we must always think that whenever some Muslims march on some demonstration or rally then we can conclude that “someone” must be behind them, streering them as if they are robots. I sense a certain amount of underestimation and negative thinking here.
I wonder why i rarely heard that whenever some gay pride marches (for example) were held in some western countries, people then accuses that they are driven by something (or someone) else. Or was it because those sort of things are part of the “current values and logic”?
We all knew that “current values and logic” is a relative term, it is different in iran, the united states and in the amazons, for example. And we are talking about the same era here. It is relative depending on geography the the people themselves.
No one can dominate what “current values and logic” meant, and force it on other people and other cultures.Values and logics evolves all the time, what we deemed ‘correct’ in our time will not necessarily be ‘correct’ 50 years from now. Judging the wisdom and values of days gone by with our “current values and logic” (a relative term in itself) is then sometimes unwise and arrogant.
Perhaps what those women and HTI members were doing was a collective action that they deemed necessary to do after some careful and thorough autonomous thinking. Maybe they thought that this western “current values and logic” which is rapidly invading Indonesia is not suitable with their current values and logic and with their religion’s values and logic. Should we blame them for that?
I didn’t say that it is enlightenment. I said it might be. We don’t know for sure whether their values or yours is the more enlightened one. Only God knows.
Tom, maybe your “current values and logic” is a western one, while those people’s is not. Can we say that yours is the ‘correct’ one and theirs is ‘wrong’ and obsolete? Perhaps we should revert back the the old value of ‘freedom of speech and opinion’? Or was it that western value and logic only apply to westerners, and Muslims don’t have that right?
That is why I said “we shouldn’t try to understand things happened some centuries ago with current values and logic”. Nggak akan nyambung. and futile, if not arrogant.
Lastly, i know we are living in this current era with it’s current western and non western values and logic. But some people (including Muslims) have their own values and logic. Theirs might come from some scriptures several centuries ago, but can we say it is “wrong” and the modern one is “correct”? If the two contradicts, can we say the newest one must be the best for them?
Btw, there was a military general once that made president in some not so far away country. His government always felt that they are the only ones with the brains while the rest of his countrymen were all either brainless or don’t know how to use them (or indeed needed information to be spoon-fed to them), and he ruled for about 32 years. You know what? Nobody felt that he was a great and wise ruler. I’m sure you get the picture.
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Dimp: you said:
“What if the person doing the polygamy does not tell the other party, by doing kawin siri, while the person doing the selingkuh actually tell the other party?”
I believe, then the husband will be considered committing a sin of untruthfulness to his wife, but he would not be considered committing the sin of adultery. Why? Because after he concluded his marriage ceremony (including kawin siri), it means that he had proclaimed his marriage in front of God and the witnesses attending that marriage. Allah SWT knows he had married a woman lawfully. The same does not apply to adultery.
And does adultery and polygamy the same thing? Well, as a Muslim we must look that up in the Quran. If the Quran says that those are the same, then they are. But since the Quran doesn’t mentioned anything about polygamy as equal to adultery then as Muslims we shouldn’t think otherwise.
About your other statement:
“polygamy and selingkuh caused by the same reason: ‘titit gatel’.”
Well, is it not true that some monogamous marriage was caused by the very same reason? “ti..t gatel” and ‘i..l gatel’? When young couples couldn’t hold their lust for each other then they got lawfully married, is that the same with adultery?
Let’s not use too much prejudice on commenting about certain religious doctrines, whatever the religion might be.
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Dimp says:
Hi Hassan,
I am not prejudice against certain religion, but I am prejudice against hypocracy, when a person is doing something that is against his saying, then he is a hyporcrite and I am against that person, I am not judging people who commit adultery or polygamy, they are all adults and have their own judgment. I don’t have the rights to say otherwise.
So if you want to do polygamy please do it, but don’t justify your need for sex by saying that this is the way that Allah intended, that my friend is just hypocracy.
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Ihaknt says:
Hassan said:
When young couples couldn’t hold their lust for each other then they got lawfully married, is that the same with adultery?
No, because they got married. lawfully.
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Oh also urusan dosa is in God’s hands not yours, not mine, not ours but GOD’S. Adultery, poligamy whatever it is, God will be the accountant and the judge of the sin.
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1ndra says:
No Hassan, marriage needs witnesses, siri too. A second, third, fourth marriage within first marriage are called poligamy AND need the first wife’s agreement, if she doesn’t agree, no marriage, no poligamy. If he does backstreet marriage, it isnt legal in Islam.
By the way Dimp, if poligamy=selingkuh then marriage=kumpul kebo (living together out of matrimony). 😀
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Grace and Mercy says:
If there are some IFs in a statement, in my opinion I don’t think you can call that truth…
IF you can do this then do this,
IF you can’t do this then do that.It’s more like giving options to do one or the other. Like alanguage of computer programming tere are “IF” statement which is not an absolute but an option to two or more probability.
Truth is an absolute statement that says one thing and not the other.
For example this is a statement Jesus made about marriage (monogamy) and divorce:
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
When in practice a person breaks this truth, it is because of that person own’s fault.. called SIN.
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Hi Indra,
Some “kumpul kebo” relationship lasts longer and are more harmonious than marriage, so you cannot judge that this relationship is bad.
All I am saying is that no matter what you do, polygamy, selingkuh, kawin siri, kumpul kebo, just be true to yourself and to others, don’t use “any outrageous reasons” to justify your actions. If you want to have a second, third, forth wife just say the truth, don’t use “this is what was intended by Islam”. Again I am saying that what I am prejudice is the hypocricy of these people.
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Good for them bad in religion, yeah, once again, religion. 🙂
If you love her, then marry her.
And for to be fair in loving, love her and fill your heart with her only. -
Hi Indra,
I agree with you if you truly love the person then you are entitled to be with that person, unfortunately in Indonesia there have been too many cases where religions interfere with love….. sad.
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Tomaculum says:
Hassan, sorry for being late to answer your comment from January 4th, 8:28.
For me, you believe it or not, is (almost) irrelevant from which religious front the women come.
Every zealotism bothers me, particularly such (sorry) dopey irrational zealotism. I think negative about such things and I think it is not fair to compare this demonstration of “enlightment” with those of the gays (btw: not only the gays, but also the lesbians). The purpose is different. Maybe you should try to find more informations about the movement before giving (sorry once again) inadequate statements.The reason for the homosexual movement is to call the attention of the people to their situation, which is still coined with refusal, hate, exclusion. Short: intolerance against them. Yes, Hassan, even in the morally so destroyed western countries you will still find conservative thinking people with apparently high moral attitude.
I don’t know how you think about the homosexuals.
For me they are normal human being with a “deviation” in their sexual behaviour, no in their nature. Deviation in quote signs to accent that I don’t see their sexual behaviour as a something abnormal. They just try to get some more acceptance and rights (in the daily life and religious. Yes, there are many religious homosexual!!). Hassan, that has nothing to do with current logic or values, but with understanding, which is timeless.
Btw: we talk about current values and logic in Indonesia and not in the USA, Europe or Amazon. You’re right, we are talking about the same era. And it is relative and depends on the local culture.
No one can dominate what “current values and logic” meant, and force it on other people and other cultures.
Answer me fairly: who force her/his value and logic on other people and other cultures?????
Judging the wisdom and values of days gone by with our “current values and logic” (a relative term in itself) is then sometimes unwise and arrogant.
1000%-ly right. And my next question: who does always judge the wisdom and values of the west? In almost every statement of the clerics or the want to be so called you will find a judgment about the values and logic of the “other”.
And that isn’t arrogant, hm, Hassan?Values and logics evolves all the time.
Which values and logics do you mean? Is it also valid to Islamic values and logics? I hear often the converse to your statement especially about the Islamic values and logic. Frequently I read and heard people say, don’t analyse or question the Islamic teachs (read: values and logic), it is written or given by God and it is absolute.
Tom, maybe your “current values and logic” is a western one, while those people’s is not.
No, Hassan. My values and logic is the summation of the east and west thinking, spiced with my ability to think free and to decide free what is for me good or not. I never let me absolutely affected by any values and logic. Because I know (or I believe to know) that every value and logic is relative (like you said).
Can we say that yours is the ‘correct’ one and theirs is ‘wrong’ and obsolete? Perhaps we should revert back the the old value of ‘freedom of speech and opinion’? Or was it that western value and logic only apply to westerners, and Muslims don’t have that right?
In this case I stay on my personally view point, that their demonstration aim is wrong and irrational, not their values and logic. For me they desire the community to do a step backwards. If men do the demonstration, I would understand them 100%-ly (but I would surely refuse their intention although I’m a normal man).
Back again to the question: who does always criticise the values of the others? Answer: both sides. Isn’t it so, Hassan?
If the two contradicts, can we say the newest one must be the best for them?
Nobody says such things, Hassan. The better way is only to try to understand each other, isn’t it?
And once again: for me personally are some values and logic of the Islam not the right thing, this statement is also valid for the western values and logic, which are some not the right way for me.
But I respect both sides. Respect means also to criticise.
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Homosexual, lesbian are still human they have their social rights. As long as they didn’t do, like inviting to their ‘loving’, it’s tolerated.
Because any religion didnt welcome those wrong sexual alignment. I welcome them in social relationship and friendship only. But not in religious areas, because religion banned them.
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Why do the religion bann them? Wrong sexual alignment?
That is the point, 1ndra.
What is wrong with their sexual life? If they do it with their homosexual partner, is this wrong?
Why? -
Tom, I personally dont think its wrong (i just it must be painful heheheheh 😀 ). I have many gay friends. And they are lovely. And what surprises me is that their relationships are in many cases are as (if not more) loving, passionate, caring and long lasting as many hetero relationships.
BUT, to align this with the discussion, for me gays are just trying to be accepted and as long as they are not trying to force their view upon us…then they should be left alone. -
Only in religion its wrong, but well, no more discussion about homosexual here, out of topic, maybe Patung will bring in new fresh topic about it. 🙂
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Well, I will try and bring the comments back on topic.
These women are no more than brainwashed cattle, who haven’t even got the God given sense to read and understand Al Quran.
1ndra was right the answer is in Al Quran, but unfortunately he left out the important parts of the verse and a later verse in the same chapter.
An-Nisa verse 3 is very, very clear, on the conditions for polygamy, and they are:
Time of war
Inability to deal fairly with orphans
Ability to deal fairly with the additional wivesAll these conditions have to be met!
Allah says in An-Nisa verse 129 says ‘no matter how hard you try you will be unable to deal fairly with the women’
Allah says you cannot meet that condition, then it is quite simple NO POLYGAMY
If these women want to act like mindless morons that is their choice, but to demonstrate it in public and to push for laws encouraging their stupid beliefs is outrageous, this country is being flushed down the sewer, by this sort of ignorance.
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In 4:3,
‘Dan jika kamu takut tidak akan dapat berlaku adil terhadap (hak-hak) perempuan yang yatim (bilamana kamu mengawininya), maka kawinilah wanita-wanita yang kamu senangi (lain) yang kamu senangi : dua, tiga, atau empat’. Kemudian jika kamu takut tidak akan dapat berlaku adil, maka (kawinilah) seorang saja, atau budak-budak yang kamu miliki. Yang demikian itu adalah lebih dekat kepada tidak berbuat aniaya.’
The first bold means ‘the orphan, the second bold means the other women, if you cant be fair with orphans then marry other women’.
The third bold means ‘the fair in clothes, tempat/house, giliran/turn and other lahiriyah/physical needs’.
The fourth bold means ‘if you cant be fair between them (independence women) then marry just one’.
The fifth bold means ‘or the women that are slaves (it means women that are live in ‘low’ life that are needed to be freed, nowadays could mean they who are in poverty and starvation)
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In 4:129,
‘Dan kamu sekali-kali tidak akan dapat berlaku adil di antara isteri-isteri(mu), walaupun kamu sangat ingin berbuat demikian, karena itu janganlah kamu terlalu cenderung (kepada yang kamu cintai), sehingga kamu biarkan yang lain terkatung katung. Dan jika kamu mengadakan perbaikan dan memelihara diri (dari kecurangan), maka sesungguhnya Allah Maha Pengampun lagi Maha Penyayang.’
The first bold arent just women Kahfi, they are your wifes.
This verses means dont love other wife more than the other one. You must love them equal and fair.
These verses are what that they believed.
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Mohammed Khafi: Let’s not get ourselves involved in the ‘allowed vs not allowed by religion’ discussion. Because that will result in an endless polemic, especially in regards to the ‘how you interpret the Quran’ argument. Obviously, those women believed like mainstream Muslims do, a view which permitted polygamy, end of discussion. Right or wrong? WAllahualam.
I do understand your rationalization about this matter, but to change the perspective of those women and the view of the mainstream Muslims? That’s a whole different thing altogether.
And, “brainwashed”? Are you sure you hadn’t been ‘brainwashed’ by that liberalistic way of thinking? If you catch my drift, that is. I don’t think that you woke up one day and.. voila!
Dimp: Perhaps when Abdullah Gymnastiar said “this is what Allah had intended”, he was talking about fate. Fate had made it possible for him to re-marry another woman. If Allah SWT didn’t want him to re-marry, then he will not be able to do that. His wife’s rejection could have prevented him from re-marrying, but it didn’t.
Again, only Gymnastiar and God knows what his intentions really are. And again, as Ihaknt said, “Adultery, poligamy whatever it is, God will be the accountant and the judge of the sin.” So, let God be the judge of that, and of other people’s actions.
Tomaculum: You said,
“I think it is not fair to compare this demonstrations with those of the gays (btw: not only the gays, but also the lesbians). The purpose is different.”
In what way was it any different? I believe in both cases the purpose generally are: a. to express their opinion/aspirations b. to fight for their rights.
So, I wonder where the difference is.If you read the article, it will be quite obvious that the women only wanted to made their views about certain matters clear, and not to curse others or force others to conform. I suppose there’s nothing wrong with that, isn’t it?
Look Tomaculum, I used the comparison between the march by the HTI women and the gay (and lesbians) march only to point out that there is a certain unfairness in saying that when the HTI women protests, some of us said that they “didn’t think” (or were just “brainwashed cattle” as khafi put it), but when the gay rallied then it was “their right to fight against intolerance towards them” and we must “understand” them. Double standard?
“Maybe you should try to find more informations about the movement before giving (sorry once again) inadequate statements.”
Ok, then should I write a short essay about a certain topic prior to talking about it? You know, just to prove my understanding of that topic and all.
“Btw: we talk about current values and logic in Indonesia”.
Well then, please define what is the current values and logic in Indonesia. Is it the same in jakarta, aceh, or sulawesi? Is it the same in your family and in those HTI members’ family? Which one is the ‘correct’ one, tom? What you perceive as the current values and logic in Indonesia will not necessarily be the same as what your neighbor think as Indonesia’s current values and logic, let alone with what those HTI members thought about it. So, differences in perceptions will occur.
In almost every statement of the clerics or the want to be so called you will find a judgment about the values and logic of the ‘other’. And that isn’t arrogant, hm, Hassan?
I don’t actually speak on behalf of those clerics, tom, so I’m not quite sure. Maybe it’s an act of arrogance, but maybe they only said that so that Muslims will not follow some bad examples (which is against Islamic laws) in our society these days. Perhaps it’s on their jobs description, being clerics and all.
“Their demonstration aim is wrong and irrational, not their values and logic.”
But those aims came from their values and logic, as do the gay on their marches. Their aspirations came from their values and logic, no matter how ‘wrong’ and irrational it may be (Hey, what kind of men wanted to stick their penises on each other’s asses anyway? Talk about rational). So why treat the two of them differently?
“But I respect both sides.”
Exactly my point, we must respect both sides. The thing is, how can we understand and respect each other, if we still feel that the ‘other party’ is not actually “thinking”. That’s the reason of my criticism on the first place.
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So ignoring the fact that these verses were revealed after the battle of Uhud and were contextual for a time of war:
Where 1ndra are the orphans that all these men are unable to be fair to?
Doesn’t 4:129 say, “Dan kamu sekali-kali tidak akan dapat berlaku adil di antara isteri-isteri” we will leave out the “mu” for now as that is an addition by the translator as are all the words in brackets.
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Mohammed Khafi: Let’s not get ourselves involved in the ‘allowed vs not allowed by religion’ discussion. Because that will result in an endless polemic, especially in regards to the ‘how you interpret the Quran’ argument. Obviously, those women believed like mainstream Muslims do, a view which permitted polygamy, end of discussion. Right or wrong? WAllahualam.
I do understand your rationalization about this matter, but to change the perspective of those women and the view of the mainstream Muslims? That’s a whole different thing altogether.
And, “brainwashed”? Are you sure you were never ‘brainwashed’ by those liberalistic way of thinking? I don’t think that you just woke up one day and.. voila! Everyone is ‘brainwashed’ by what they see, hear, and feel everyday, brother Khafi.
Dimp: Perhaps when Abdullah Gymnastiar said “this is what Allah had intended”, he was talking about fate. Fate had made it possible for him to re-marry another woman. If Allah SWT didn’t want him to re-marry, then he will not be able to do that. His wife’s rejection could have prevented him from re-marrying, but it didn’t.
Again, only Gymnastiar and God knows what his intentions really are. And again, as Ihaknt said, “Adultery, poligamy whatever it is, God will be the accountant and the judge of the sin.” So, let God be the judge of that, and of other people’s actions.
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Tomaculum: You said:
“I think it is not fair to compare this demonstrations with those of the gays (btw: not only the gays, but also the lesbians). The purpose is different.”
In what way was it any different? I believe in both cases the purpose generally are: a. to express their opinion/aspirations b. to fight for their rights.
So, I wonder where the difference is.
If you read the article, it will be quite obvious that the women only wanted to made their views about certain matters clear, and not to curse others or force them to conform.
Look Tomaculum, I used the comparison between the march by the HTI women and the gay march only to point out that there is a certain unfairness in saying that when the HTI women protests, some of us said that they “didn’t think” (or were just “brainwashed cattle” as khafi put it), but when the gay rallied then it was “their right to fight against intollerance towards them” and we must “understand” them. Double standard?
“Maybe you should try to find more informations about the movement before giving (sorry once again) inadequate statements.”
Ok, then should I write a short essay about a certain topic prior to talking about it? You know, just to prove my understanding of that topic and everyhing.
“We talk about current values and logic in Indonesia”.
Well then, let’s define what ‘the current values and logic in Indonesia’ is. Is it the same thing in jakarta, aceh or papua? Is it the same thing in your family and the families of those HTI women? Which one is the ‘correct’ one? Your family and your neighbors might even have different perceptions regarding this matter, let alone those HTI women. Are they ‘wrong’?
“In this case I stay on my personally view point, that their demonstration aim is wrong and irrational, not their values and logic.”
Isn’t true that the aims (and aspirations) in any demonstrations and rallies came from the culprits’ values and logic of what is going on in their respective societies. It is true in the case of the HTI women and is also true for the case of the gays (and lesbians) pride marches. Why must we differentiate between the two? Certain people also disagreed with what those gay and lesbian marches aimed for, but then again you said they had their rights. But the HTI women didn’t?
“But I respect both sides. Respect means also to criticize.”
My point exactly. We have to respect both sides. But my question is, how can we respect each other if we didn’t respect each other’s aspirations? When they had certain aspirations then we say that they are not actually “thinking”? That is the reason of my criticism on the first place, Tomaculum.
“The better way is only to try to understand each other, isn’t it?”
I couldn’t have agreed more.
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Hi Hassan,
If these stupid women want to share their husbands that is their choice as I said earlier. What I don’t like is what HTI stand for in general and that is theocracy! The complete rule of the nation by their own interpretation of religious texts. If they chose to live their lives by manmade religious rules, that is up to them, but to force others to do the same is completely unacceptable!
Hizbut Tahrir’s goal is Islamisation by compulsion, whilst Allah clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion!
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‘Dan kamu sekali-kali tidak akan dapat berlaku adil di antara isteri-isteri(mu), walaupun kamu sangat ingin berbuat demikian, karena itu janganlah kamu terlalu cenderung (kepada yang kamu cintai), sehingga kamu biarkan yang lain terkatung katung. Dan jika kamu mengadakan perbaikan dan memelihara diri (dari kecurangan), maka sesungguhnya Allah Maha Pengampun lagi Maha Penyayang.’
Means, even you cant be fair and the followed words mean you can be fair if you love them all equally.
The last, if you do try to be fair, Allah is Mercyful._______________
If these stupid women want to share their husbands that is their choice as I said earlier.
And please Khafi, dont call them ‘stupid’. That isnt soft and good word.
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Hassan,
In what way was it any different? I believe in both cases the purpose generally are: a. to express their opinion/aspirations b. to fight for their rights.
a. to express theri opinion/aspirations: OK, I agree.
b. to fight for their rights: rights??? Sorry, Hassan, but what kind of right? Right to be defined as a gender with lower position? If you see this as a right, then it is not different. I wonder if a human being likes to be seen as something less worth with fewer rights as the other. Even many of the shudras in Hinduism fight nowadays for more rights.
So, Hassan, I don’t think that we (in this case, use two different standards. In my eyes the women’s wishes are against the development with the increasing recognition and estabishment of woman rights.
Maybe you should try to find more informations about the movement before giving (sorry once again) inadequate statements.
Ok, then should i write a short essay about a certain topic prior to talking about it? You know, just to prove my understanding of that topic and everything.
No, but the contents of your statements can express the informations you’ve got or/and your position about a thing.
About the current values: surely you won’t find a homogenous understanding of values and logic. It depends on intelligence (read: ability to understand), education, environment (read: influence of neighborhood and family) and inputs from outboard (TV, internet, newspapers, books etc). But sociological seen, there is a common/collective denominator of the local current values and logic (surely with deviations).
For example: one of the current valid values in Indonesia is to fight for a stable and more democracy, isn’t it? And to democracy belong certain laws and attitudes like the same rights for every human being who is citizen of the Republik Indonesia (independent of the gender). Is the ability of the HTI women to demonstrate not also a part of democracy? (Btw: we don’t talk here about their right to demonstrate or to express their opinions, but about the contents of this opinion).
If in a country only different values without collective denominators are stabled, I wonder if there will be a peaceful cohabitation possible.
Why must we differentiate between the two? Certain people also disagreed with what those gay and lesbian marches aimed for, but then again you said they had their rights. But the HTI women didn’t?
For me, Hassan, those are two different things. The demonstrating homosexuals in Europe represent (nearly) all of the homosexuals up there and maybe in the world, and the HTI women? Are they representing the women in Indonesia or even the majority of the females in Aceh?
But I respect both sides. Respect means also to criticize. My point exactly. We have to respect both sides. But my question is, how can we respect each other if we didn’t respect each other’s aspirations? When they had certain aspirations then we say that they are not actually “thinking”? That is the reason of my criticism on the first place, Tomaculum.
To respect someone doesn’t mean to accept or to respect all of his deeds. This is my opinion.
Again an example: if you read my comments in this blogs, you will find out, that I respect all religions and faiths.But I can’t accept some of the regulations (or some call it laws) of the religions. The system of the caste in Hinduism is one of the laws I can’t respect. Or the hand cutting punishment in sharia. I refuse this and see it as inhuman. In Catholicism is for me an absurdity, that a women are not allowed to be a priest.
There are still many of such things I can not accept/respect, but it doesn’t mean I don not respect the religions.
If we understand something, then questions will be arised and then maybe doubts and then questions.
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1ndra,
I am sorry you find the word stupid, a bad and hard word, but considering the definition I think it is wholly appropriate.
Stupid: Definition:
1, Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2, Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3, Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless.
4, Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5, Pointless; worthless. -
MK, stupid is an appropriate short word to describe these bunch. They dont know any better and most probably think they have no other choice.
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I do not believe in the habit of calling others with a different opinion, or whose opinion differed than those of the mainstream ‘logic and values’ as “unthinking” or “stupid”.
If those people can not perform additions or can not read, that might be a sign of their ignorance, but if a certain bunch of people had a different opinion well then that’s a whole different story altogether. Are we sure that we are ultimately (and absolutely) “smart” and they are “stupid”? Who can judge that statement? Ourselves?
The devil (iblis) was cursed and condemned by God for being arrogant, considering himself to be higher, smarter, better in any way than Adam.
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Tomaculum: you said,
“rights??? Sorry, Hassan, but what kind of right? Right to be defined as a gender with lower position?”
Those are your words, based on your (and certain western) values and logic. Obviously those women (with their own values and logic) didn’t see it that way. So, as long as what they do is aimed at something that they thought is best for them, then yes, it is their rights. And who are we to judge other people’s aspirations as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’??
If the government started doing those sort of things (determine people’s aspirations as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’), they will start closing the medias, jailing people without trial, and other ‘ORBA’-ish nonsense. So, Tomaculum, no matter how different or queer (like the homosexuals’) aspirations are, in democracy, there’s nothing wrong with that.
“The demonstrating homosexuals in Europe represent (nearly) all of the homosexuals up there and maybe in the world, and the HTI women? Are they representing the women in Indonesia or even the majority of the females in Aceh?”
Maybe it is true in Aceh, we don’t know that, do we? Anyway, are you saying if a certain sentiment had become the majority in a certain place, then (and only then) that sentiment can be justified in the form of demonstrations? As long as it is not, then those women can not channel their aspirations?
“I refuse this and see it as inhuman”
The term inhuman, came from human values (which is relative anyway). But God’s regulations and laws (in the form of religion), came directly from the our Creator who knew us inside out (He DID create us). So Tomaculum, if human sentiments and religious values contradicts, tell me, which one is ‘right’ and which one is ‘wrong’? Or let’s make it clear, Who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’? God, or us?
Lastly, as I said, the devil was banished for thinking that he is better than Adam. Arrogance is the ultimate sin. That is why, Tomaculum, I said that it is unwise to call others as “unthinking”.
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Well, stupid is as stupid does.
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Hassan, if humans value sais: according to the (earthen) law the thief should be jailed for 1 year and if “God”s regulation tell us to cut off his/her hand, then I will surely choose the earthen law as the right one.
The governmental regulations in Indonesia arrange the interests also of the women, and aacording to my (few) opinion there are also regulations about the equality of the genders.
Democracy doesn’t mean that everybody can shout out tany of their opinion, what about if this opinion is against the democratical development? Isn’t the inequality of the genders, which is wished by those women, contradict against the development and the regulations?“Anyway, are you saying if a certain sentiment had become the majority in a certain place, then (and only then) that sentiment can be justified in the form of demonstrations? As long as it is not, then those women can not channel their aspirations?”
Compare with my opinion:
“Is the ability of the HTI women to demonstrate not also a part of democracy? (Btw: we don’t talk here about their right to demonstrate or to express their opinions, but about the contents of this opinion).”
And about my values, read this:
“No, Hassan. My values and logic is the summation of the east and west thinking, spiced with my ability to think free and to decide free what is for me good or not. I never let me absolutely affected by any values and logic. Because I know (or I believe to know) that every value and logic is relative (like you said).”
So please read my comments carefully and don’t interpret your thoughts in my words, OK?
“Lastly, as I said, the devil was banished for thinking that he is better than Adam. Arrogance is the ultimate sin. That is why, Tomaculum, I said that it is unwise to call others as “unthinking”.”
God hates surely also stupidity and it is a stupid arrogance to postmark other human as sinner or unbeliever. It is Gods right to justice us in such things, not ours. And the holly books (I think you mean this with Gods words and regulations?) are guidance for our life.
If not then every religion can (and they do it) claim, that their teachings are the right one and that the other who don’t follow the words of his/her God are unbeliever and sinner.
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Oh, and maybe stupid is the one who cannot read and see the truth.
When other ‘better knowing people’ are said A but the other stupid are said BI’m stupid for you but you’re stupid for me…
What a different opinion makes people stupid each other
😀Lets get rid the stupid words as we are all stupid…
🙂 -
Tomaculum:
“if humans value says: according to the (earthen) law the thief should be jailed for 1 year and if “God”s regulation tell us to cut off his/her hand, then I will surely choose the earthen law as the right one.”
Well then, according to you, humans are wiser than God. Pardon my conclusion, but God did gave us brains, didn’t He? 🙂
“Democracy doesn’t mean that everybody can shout out any of their opinion, what about if this opinion is against the democratical development?”
Ahh, then it’s the case of democracy for the sake of democracy, not for the sake of the people. If a democracy only allows the voice of those in support of it, and banned those who were against it, then it’s not really a democracy, is it? Biassed? Democracy for the democratic instead of for everyone?
That reminded me of Soeharto’s version of democracy. I think he would agree that opinions against his ‘democratical development’ should be banned.
“and it is a stupid arrogance to postmark other human as sinner or unbeliever”
Correction, i did not call anyone as a sinner, nor called anyone as unbeliever, as you implied. I was merely reminding others not to fall into arrogance. As that was the reason of the downfall of a lot of men, and was also the reason of the devil’s banishment. Was it not true in your religion also? Tomaculum, using your own words, please read my comments carefully and don’t interpret your thoughts in my words, OK?
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1ndra: That is exactly my point.
When we have people calling each other “stupid”, just because their views are different than ours, what we have is.. well, a community full of “stupids” (based on those people’s words to each other).
It’s amazing what derogative words can do.
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Hassan.
Women are stupid according to your Hadith:
The intellectual and religious deficiencies of women are stated in the following Hadith found in Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered by Muslim scholars to be “The most authentic book after the Book of Allah (ie. the Qur’an)”:
“Allah’s Apostle once said to a group of women : ‘I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked: ‘O Allah’s Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said: ‘This is the deficiency of your intelligence’ … ‘Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women replied in the affirmative. He said: ‘This is the deficiency in your religion.'”
The authenticity of the above Hadith is undisputed. It is reported by the two most reliable collections of Hadith; Bukhari and Muslim. The agreement of Bukhari and Muslim on its authenticity makes it (mutafaqun ‘alayhi) ‘agreed upon’, which is the highest degree of authenticity. The above Hadith has been accepted and used by eminent scholars, such as Ghazali, Ibn al-‘Arabi, Razi, Suyouti, Qortobi, Nawawi, and Ibn Kathir, in their writings.
I very much doubt if these womens views are based on reading and study of Al Quran, their views are more likely based on what others have told them Al Quran means, based on their twisted tales.
Probably using Hadith such as:
“If a woman dies while her husband was pleased with her, she will enter Paradise.” This Hadith was narrated by Um Salmah/At Tirmidhi.
“If a man orders a woman to lift a mountain she should be ready to lift it.” (Musnad Ahmed)
If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse the woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428)
The marriage of a woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)
If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband’s bed. (Bokhari P 93)
Women who are ungrateful to their men are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: “I have never seen any good from you.” (Bokhari P 96)
A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27) She is not allowed to practise birth control either.
Quotes From Sahih Muslim Hadith
Chapter 540.The prophet said that he saw a woman coming and going in the shape of a devil and she fascinated him. So he came to his wife, Zainab, as she was tanning leather and had sexual intercourse with her. That drove out what he felt in his heart.
Chapter 558. The prophet said: “When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.
Chapter 576. The prophet said :”Woman has been created from a rib, and will in no way be straightened for you.”
Malik
365:1245 A man said, “My wife has willfully given my slavegirl with whom I used to cohabit her own milk to drink. What is my relationship to the slave girl ?” Omar said “Punish your wife and go into your slave girl”.Do you really wish to practice your religion based on these sorts of stories?
Comment on “Hizbut Tahrir”.
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FYI my naive friend Dimp, women have as much capability as men to swing dude! If not happy in the relationship then surely you can only hang on for so long before you just realise, this is crap, I don’t want this.
Ss for your question? I will leave it to the others to answer, my hangover is not going away!