Hello Rara,

I'm not "true" westerners – as I'm not bule … but can I assist you ?

1.Would you have a relationship with them, would you marry them ?

*** relationship … maybe, if she's attractive, good-looking, nice to talk with … head scarf is just a piece of fabric, isn't it ?

about marrying her - I did not think that marriage is that easy … religion do counts, even though I really respect her religion. If she can accept & tolerate what I believe, and I can tolerate what she believe … what's the problem ? We'll see about that later

2.Would you respect the religion values such as no premarital sex - 

*** depend on your description of "values"

if it consists of honor killing – a BIG NO

if it consists of treating women as subordinates – a BIG NO

if it's about premarital sex … OK with me, but don't blame me for trying =D

3. How would you bridge the cultural and religion background difference.

***  … you forgot one thing … it should be US, not just ME who should bridge the cultural and religion background … I do not really know about your value, but I think marriage is not personal decision, it must be coming from both parties

well, about the bridging thing … sure we'll talk it out … some thing can be compromised, some cannot … if the difference is too sharp, I think I'll back off … to avoid getting hurt and hurt her

4. And how would you compromise ? – Would you convert?

*** I know that all would come down to this … =D

lemme return it to you …

supposedly I want you to me my wife, regardless your religion (I respect your choice fully), and never try to convert you … can you hang along with me without thinking of converting me ? could you compromise and respect my choice ?

Hiya Donny, (phewww, finally somebody is replying!) :D

Thanks for replying to my post, I didnt get any replies until you came in lol … I was like  "ummm.. okay.. its a heavy topic or really less interesting topic, (dont blame you) "  :P

Thank you,

I suppose I chose word of westerner here referred to people who live in the western countries / non muslim countries, who are not muslims- regardless skin colors. Thus its not particularily bule which refers to caucasians.

Okay,

1st answer is very clear, Thank you. Youre probably one of the ones who looks for inner beauty :P Very good to know, thats a good start !

Yes I agree marriage isnt easy, to unite 2 people together has never been easy indeed. As for Asians, religion plays big role in our lives. Different beliefs can cause serious problems, therefore bothsides need huge amount of understanding and tolerance. A very big task for the couple.

2nd answer

*** depend on your description of "values"

if it consists of honor killing – a BIG NO

if it consists of treating women as subordinates – a BIG NO

As we speak the religion values here you might wanna stick to the question ONLY (premarital sex) I didnt mention honor killing and women subordinations above (irrelevant because they´re secluded from the teaching itself ;) – And we´re not gonna have some religion debates here

– So you´d try huh LOL. Okay fair enough. But could you survive without it  and not go cheating to get it ? :P

3rd  You´re absolutely right on this one that the bridging thing needs to be worked out by two parties. I Think its related to the question no 1. Huge amount of tolerance and understanding are required to achieve the goal. But I was thinking what is the sharpest difference between western culture and eastern culture that you could never bridge? If we could ever find out maybe the less sharp matters would never be problems anymore, and maybe we can help many couples , no ? :P (thinking of a carreer change as a counselor now lol)

4th *** I know that all would come down to this … =D

Good that you knew! :P It couldnt be helped

As you know as Indonesians, we are not permitted by law to marry with different beliefs. So couple must decide one religion to conduct the marriage. Some people doing it only by paper and some people are really converting by heart. BUT, as far as I know people who converted , also those who have even ONLY by papers, last longer in their marriage than those who have a seperate beliefs on their ways. I dont talk about statics, I dont know the statics but its from what I´ve heard , seen and known , it is as it is.

See, I think its all because a marriage is a union of two people, two differences must merge into one, heading to one direction of life. Whereas if you have seperate beliefs which you think you can face it with tolerance and huge amount of understanding, respect etc,  But  somehow it would work for the first years with Passion of Love, but as time goes by, it slowly comes to a exhaustness of endless adjusting. You seem to be trying to work it out for the rest of your lives! And most of them have come to failing sooner.

ay ay ay,,, thats quite long thats my 2 cents of the day.

Diego: which one isnt clear anymore?

Nobody is scoring nobody. My intention was clear purely I wanted to know bout the perspective. Any opinion is welcome.

Cheers,

Rara

Hey Donny,

normal human being can lasts for 3 days without water, 7 days without food and countless days without sex – if they want to

does sex important ? – Yes, it is … but if by forcing it I may lose someone special … I'll think twice about it …

now thats something nice to say from a guy!

Yes I understand the importance of sex but there are some people who choose not to have it before they are married, and it is a common thing in Asia.

so by the meaning of refrain – you wouldnt cheat for it ?  

and how bout the other guys you know … what are the chances of cheating here if you didnt get it from your girlfriend… (currious)

I think it is respect and tolerance … not pseudo-tolerance asians claims to have .

Can you please elaborate the pseudo-tolerance here , which attitudes that you think its a part of it?

most of my Indonesian friends depicts my way of thinking as "too open" or "radicals" or "did not suit asian's way"

we all are open minded individuals here no ? so no worries!

so … back to topic … can you tolerate us and let us be without trying to change who we are ?

I would answer Yes of course as long as its not against the law or endanger youself by being who you are and what you are. If there is something that can be improved to the better why wont we try for the better?

You see,

changing somebody is not always a bad thing to do. It can be from a negative to a positive change. For instance if you were a drug addict and somebody is trying to change you not to drug no more, is that wrongdoing ? Thats why theres rehabiltations, prisons, schools , social organizations, even UN – to make one to have a better life.

really ? so you have to choose one of five approved religions (if I'm not mistaken – or is it six ??) in order to get married ?

yes thats the law here , 6 religions now acknowledged by the state.

why you choose to be stubborn, to think that yours is better than others ? this kind of arrogancy, no matter how sweet your reason is, is the main cause of divorce.

Its not about the arogancy. But its about uniting differences that will minimize the family affairs in the future. So your friend Jeff is happily married for 3 years,- I hope they will last happily ever after – but we´ll never know whats gonna happen and we never know whats inside their household..how tough they try and try to work things out…if they´re happily married for a lifetime for half a century, then I want to know their secret!

Anyway I salute you for still holding the family values. No matter where you are , wherever you´re from , any nation, any skin, family is the best home you can return to ;)

and to establish a strong familyhood you gotta start from a man and a woman in a good bond , with mutual goals and mutual destination

Ok,

I think I need another cup of coffee now.,,:D

Wow,

you think its about math ???

and the follower? AY thats funny, I mean like you made it sounds like theres a big mafia gang if you be a member you get a cushion and a gun! LOL

lets stick to the topic, the answer should be YES n NO, as simple as that

I aint having a religion debate here,  like I was asking,

if you were to have a gf with different religion would you convert to her religion?

thats it, no fuss

@Diego:

Allright, sorry, I found the answer (divine revelation): you love him soooo much that you don't want to see him burn in hell.

@Diego you took it way to ridiculous

divine revelation? did you ever read from my post that I was going to be a prophet or a saint here?

@Patung : Thank you!

that was very helpfull!

yes as I wrote before some people do it only for the papers…you´re right nobody knows how deep is the conversion. But there are some people who are really persistent and not willing to compromise in this matter at all and chose to marry outside the country.

So Ive been noticing this with the people around me and trying to get a point of view, how many say YES (fake or no) and how many say NO-NEVER – and what are their reasonings…I think it shouldnt be hard to discuss….

but Diego ridiculed me and took it way too far

Cheers,

dpsgurl

Hello TidakMasalah, thank you for replying..

I would marry one, but would be extremely careful about the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing. It's not that I find women with hijab unattractive. A pretty girl is a pretty girl. But I don't want to be the one who corrupts her.

hmmm extremely carefull…  that word is so strong.

Maybe, does it mean that youd marry her but not to date her?

 I would try to. But you get a guy and a girl together, and things have a way of… progressing.

very well this is somehow understood. But at least you would try, that sounds a good enough intention 

Religion is not a factor for me. I'm already a Muslim, though admittedly not a very good one. The culture I am already trying to bridge by learning the language and ways of Indonesia for my own reasons.

ah I see, good. But I think if you didnt grow up in a muslim country you would get a different situation, different perception for it.. Therefore I think there´d be an obstacle in a relationship and would need quite a bit much of adjustment.

Cool!  Yes, learning a language is always a good start to blend in !

I think thats the interesting part of diversity. To learn about  a new culture, to live in a new country with all its colors, I think its beautiful

Thats why God created us into nations and tribes so we can get to know each other. I think thats one thing we all should be grateful for.

Hi Donny , glad ur back

hope your weekend was great!

Ok now I see what you mean by pseudo-tolerance, but first lets not stereotyping anyone here by saying the Javanese or Central javanese are more likely like that. Since from the very beginning I never try to stereotyping  anyone by saying "Bulés are twisted, Chinese are cheap, Javanse are lazy, Arabs are racist etc "although thats whats people are rambling about when they get mad. Lets not diss each other. Im not gonna talk about one´s social behaviour since we all know attitude is formed by influence of environment and education.

  yes, changing somebody is not always bad thing

at least we agree on one thing here yay!

cover it up with good reasoning as "changing to better ones" … better according to who ??

Changing in this matter reffers to your earlier post

 can you tolerate us and let us be without trying to change who we are ?

This is a general change unparticularily only religion. As long as its not against the law Im fine with that! 

if you say you're open-minded, why should religion be a problem ? if religion is to bring peace, why is it pushed forward to strengthen disparity ?

Yes I am open minded person. And as for myself I never push a religion as a religion cannot be forced towards one´s mind. But thats not the case here. I wanted to know how far a comprimisation could go in a relationship when it comes to a religion.

compare to our viewpoint – If I have a muslim girlfriend, for example … and she wants to pray 5 times daily, it's COMPLETELY OK with me, as long as she did not disturb my daily activity (I still can tolerate quite a lot in terms of accompanying, helping and close one eye sometimes) – but I am what I am … I will not change her into something she's not …

the sentence that I marked as bold seems interesting. Which activity in the 5 times daily prayer that could possibly disturb you ? Would you elaborate?

Slowly Im getting a perspective on this still need more of opinions tho, but at least I get a slight idea   and Thank you for the posts guys!

hey Donny

awwwww thats very kind of you, coffee would be a good start off in the morning !

thx for replying in your sleepy time

I see what you mean ! hehehe preaching you all the way wouldnt sound as good then! haha, that sounds annoying, heheheh I hope you wont have to deal with such thing!

so in another way of saying You Choose NO – to convert .

Yes?

Ill note that in my poll :D

Hi Donny ,

okay , so its a no, kewl – thats a note,

oh stuppor mode huh , LOL

thats funny

thanks bro for your points – have a happy Tuesday!