"DW, after praising singapore, you have decided that you may not retire there. Chances are, your children may not want to live there either, after being educated in the US."

I need not praise Singapore neither do I live on her past glories so that you know.  When achievements were made and seen by others they do not need my praise bar none.

The last time I spoke to my chldren they say they wanted to continue their studies in Indonesia before embarking to further their studies.  But to my surprise they in fact like Singapore more than I do.  So wherever they want to go I will be there and that possibility exist to me.

"Dragonwall, the corruption in singapore takes different forms."

Can you tell me besides what the norms in Indonesia what forms do they come in?

"Salaries of the leaders are simply without basis in logic or need."

If they declare their income tax on what they are paid, is that corruption?

" And yes, you can google singapore ministerial salaries, they are all paid in excess of one million dollars."

Yeah, you know why so that people knows that their salary is that much nothing hidden behind their sleeves.  If a country is not progressing, can they pay their ministers that much money?  One thing I would like you to really understand of being corrupt and to let others know they are not corrupt.

The reason the Singapore government is paying their ministers such high salaries is that to refrain them from involving in any kind of bribe or kickbacks.  Until so far besides the case of Teh Cheang Wan, have you heard of anyone else involving in any corruption practice?

" Coupled with the PAP stranglehold on keeping themselves in power, I consider this corruption."

Is this what you learn from Singapore?  To be in power is corruption? What will you think of next?

I have a question for both you Hary and Sputjam.

Would you trust someone who have not proven to be proficient to run the country?  Can any opposition prove that they will be able to lead the country?  Will the Indonesians trust someone to run your country?  History had told us that most of the time the Indonesians makes a choice, it is their fatal choice until Soeharto and recently.  Besides that all others were just what? Please tell me.  Don't just whin and sigh.

"Interesting also how their Government linked companies (GLC) can show such great returns only when they are doing business with other GLCs."

Of course it is interesting otherwise how would they be making money.  Do you think they want to make a fool out of themselves?  When they withdraw themselves from the Hongkong Tele what happened to Lee Chak Kai of Cyberspace?

" Govt contracts are doled out to each other, ensuring an uneven playing field."

There is only uneven play in Indonesia and not in Singapore.  If they deemed the competitors to be unqualified then they will not be in tyhe race.  Didn't you see why Singapore spend miliions on the studies done by foreigners on the MRT and they decided on that.  So happened? Fantastic and saving billions of dollars and yet making money.  What about Jakarta?

" As soon as the GLC has to compete in the real market, they can't. "

Come on show us something and not just talking.  What real market are you talking about when you already understand the basic.  Do we need to teach you from the start?

"Meanwhile, the top executives, who are politically connected, continue to collect million dollar salaries. I consider this corruption."

If a person can make me billions, why can't I pay them million? Simple logic.  Unlike Indonesia when you guys were always complaining the low salary?  This is what you should consider in learning on how other countries could progress and not Indonesia.

"I am not jealous of Singapore or Singaporeans. I too recognise their achievements without being blind to their faults and failings."

Right you are not jealous but by way of speech you seemed so but what could you do except to envy!  And taking into consideration of what was spoken you obviously seemed blid to me when you failed to observe that no venture no gain kind of business tact.

"BTW do have a little perspective in your posts Dragonwall. For eg to claim that the Singaporean has outshone the British in technology and mindset is a little far fetched, in my opinion. "

Can you enlightened us how well you know about politics and economy?

In the 50" people goes to Cambridge University, now most of them come to Singapore University and Nanyang Tech.

Besides the Harrier jump jets, I don't suppose there is anything else.

You think Singapore cannot build a Harrier jumpjet?  Are3 you aware that Singapore can produce weapons like the SAR? Mortar? etc.  You are still sleeping my dear friend.

So does my perspective sort of a little lightened you up.  There are many things that Singapore could do but is not prepared to do so taking in consideration of competition in neighboring countries and others and that is why they have not been so outspoken and they prefer to be more low profile.

Can you count how many number one has Singapore achieve in the world?  Then you talk about my perspective.

Post edited 4:41 am – January 20, 2009 by sputjam

I warned everyone earlier. You just cannot in a discuss with a singaporean maturely, especialy if you come from a neighbouring country. They willl always come up with their kiasuness, from coconut trees, to skyscrapers. All we can do is listen to them silently and nod, in order not to offend.

now they have decided to downgrade the UK to a level below that of singapore, knowing that it was the british who developed singapore into what it is now, and the present leadership is smart enough to ride on that momentum. I am sure many are not that ignorant and recieved good education. Pap's  propaganda and two years of national service branwashing has worked well.

Where did prominent malaysians got their education from during the colonial era? University Malaya  and various colleges based in Singapore, including the prominent Dr. Mahathir, who still harbour hatred for singapore due to racial discrimination by the chinese there when he was a student.

The trade port and business centre for malaya was in singapore. All rail tracks and road leads to singapore, not Kuala Lumpur. Singapore was the unofficial capital. It was a bustling port, not a swampland and backwater that PAP kept harping on. The only airport hat could accomodate direct flights to london and australia was on the island, not anywhere else in Malaya.

Sinagpore's per capita income was one of the highest in asia before merger with Malaysia and their  reserve was at USD400million in 1961 money.

Once upon a time, the hongky tonks looked down on their brethren from china. Not any more my friend.

You know something I am quite annoyed when my posting just doesn't seemed to appear.

I gather there might be someone that does not agree to my rebutting your disagreements.

Tell you this much.  I had made posting that I spent almost 35 minutes on that and it did not appear.  But anyway I am making this my last posting to your comments because I do not wish to waste unnecessary time. 

“Corruption takes the form of unreasonable salaries.”

What do you mean by unreasonable salaries?  Can I pay you USD1.00 for your work because I deemed reasonable?

“ Obviously you did not understand my point.”

Oh yeah I understand you well enough to tell you that the thinking you possess is in serious doubt.  If you pay your staff S$100.00 per month because you feel it is reasonable taking into consideration of rupiahs exchange, what will your staff say to you?

“In 2008, the average worker's salary increase was 2.5%. Most workers did not recieve increments.”

I would say if they were not retrenched they should have considered themselves lucky due to the global recession.  Looking into the US market where hundred of thousand lost their job because of company failures.

“ Ministerial salaries increased by an average of 26%. There was widespread complaints but as always, the increments were approved by their Parliament. “

It is only 26 percent, but have you consider taking inflation and others into consideration.  So they have been approved by parliament and that means what, is that legal or corrupt? 

Indonesia’s Justice Minister drafted the Sharia Law and have them shafted down the throat of the DPR MPR members for approval.  There were quite edgy at first but with pelicin it went through like breeze.  What does that mean to you?  Agung Laksono vouch to investigate the bribe but what was the outcome.  Sama Aja Bohong.

“To be in power is not corrupt. To remain in power by oppressing opposition is.”

Ahhh.. To be in power is not corrupt but to remain in power is?  I should learn more of such language from graduate from Cambridge and Harvard.  Is that what was taught to you at Harvard? Is that what you sum up of Singapore Government?  How about Indonesia Government?  Did they corrupt themselves to be in power?  And please tell me who were being oppressed in Singapore?  Jeyaratnam or you? 

Being in politic is a big risk like Mahatir Mohamad against Anwar who got framed.  Whereas Jeyaratnam has a big mouth and he speaks nonsense otherwise he won’t be targeted at. 

In court it is all about proof and nothing else, right?

“ It is after all a democracy.“

What is your definition for democracy?  Meaning that the opposition must be given the opportunity to take the seat?  Prove it that you are competent and you will get the seat.  You don’t need to be in the opposition.  Be a PAP member and the opportunity will be made available to you.

“The level playing field I was refering to is the International market. Singaporean companies do not do so well when they have to compete outside a politically friendly environment. “

So what about Singapore playing in the international field? 

When Cyberspace was fighting for HK tele and Singapore opted out because of what?  He is rich?  He is smart? No, definitely not.  Because Singapore realized that the Cyberspace is a fluke and over inflated bloat and going into competition with someone like that will definitely make Singapore no wiser.

When Indonesia called for help Singapore was the first to approach and invested in Indo tele.  Indonesian government had welcome them with open arms and follow by others.  When the share price went up everyone says Singapore play foul and need to be kicked out so that someone else could come in.  Why don’t they protest in the first place before the price went up.  Is this for real?  Is there corruption involve in the part of Indonesian government?  Kiss my arse if you say no.  Did Singapore whin about that?  Of course in all proper government approved investment they will appeal against the court but the outcome still the same so Singapore lost out.  That is not big deal with that to Singapore.  But it serves a lesson to Indonesian government and Indonesians alike that no one will invest into Indonesia.  So much for international field of competition.  The global recession and downturn affects everyone including Singapore because they are holding someone else investment beyond their apprehension.

“Salaries should not only be determined by how much money you can make the company.”

How about you making a billion for me and I pay peanuts to monkeys. 

Please give me you logic in an economic sense and don’t just rebut for the sake of arguments.

“ In any case, the Prime Minister's wife did not have her salary cut when she lost USD 500 million on the Polis deal.”

Like what was said above.  Must the person taking the helm be sent to the gallow?  Is that her fault?  When you buy something and the price drops you blame others?

“I assure you I am not envious of Singapore or Singaporeans. I am very happy with my life and am financially ( and intellectually) independant.”

As far as I can see, yes you are and however financial adequate or intellectually independent will not affect what you said.  I suppose the opposite makes you happy don’t they?

“ As for my grasp of basic economics and politics, I trust that my years in Cambridge and Harvard weren't wasted.”

So much for your Cambridge and Harvard studies and I see that really gone down to waste by way of your analogy that what I consider to be irrational, devious and unappealing.

“Perhaps with a little homework on your part, you may find that the Brits are quite clever. Ever heard of Faraday, Pyke , Pickering, Bacon, …I could go on but British contribution to science and technology are far too numerous.”

I might need a little homework, but please go on.  In the end what were you trying to prove?  So Singapore will not be a country if they do not contribute to science and technology?

“As for the SAr, it is a simple short carbine variation of the American AR 15. The 81mm and 106mm Mortars are produced in Singapore under license from the Israeli patent holder. So much for innovation on their part.“

Why don’t the Americans make them, Why don't the Indonesians make them?  Do you think the Singapore Mint is going to tell you what they are doing so that you can call them innovative?

How about N235?  You should concentrate more in getting the Indonesian government to prosecute and retrieve back the money stolen and corrupted by Habibie, his cronies and his family where he is living in recluse under the protection of the someone's Helmet in Germany.  Don’t you think that he has corrupted more money from IPTN BPPT etc etc?

“Note, there is art in disagreeing without being disagreeable. Cheers!!!”

When 2 wrongs does not make one good, and 2 rights does not amend one wrong, so much for the art of disagreeing having to be disagreeable to thing you do not really understand yourself.  Is there anything to cheer about yourself?

Fact 1) sateleindo, and other financial assets and distressed company was forced upon the indonesian by IMF.

Fact 2) USD400million in 1961 money is equivalent to around USD100billion today (maybe more)

Fact 3) Singapore's per capita income figures is assisted by the huge number of high paying foreign executives who works for the merchant banks /hedge funds/financial institution. Hence when these collapse, singapore was the first to feel the pain of recession.

Fact 4)  Singapore' entrepreneurship spirit is still lacking, as it has been turned into a socialist state by LKY. A huge chunk of the populations works for either a) the govenrment b) the GLC's.(Govenrment linked companies) when compared to an equivalent city such as Hong Kong or even Kuala Lumpur.

I accept, Dragonwall, that you are entitled to your own opinion. There is little to be gained by arguing for argument's sake. Other posters and readers will form their own judgements on the irrationality, deviousness and elegance of our differing styles and views. Thank you for an illuminating and extremely entertaining discussion. Your world view and opinions are fascinating. I haven't had as much fun since watching reruns of WWF!!!     

Draggie said:

…

You know something I am quite annoyed when my posting just doesn't seemed to appear.

I gather there might be someone that does not agree to my rebutting your disagreements.

…

You're right, draggie. Seems like the whole world is against you, exactly like what you think.

Drag,

My advise is , before Global warming sink your beloved tiny island, why dont you open new topics for :

1) How to exploit and smuggles more sands from Indonesia to singapore to expand your seashore or build apartment.

2) Also how to topic of how to comfort more neighbouring goverment officer to hide thier properties in singapore.

3) How to exploit ( kill?) more overseas students who perform too good in colleges or once they  invented something so valueble while studing there.

4) How to let the cheap diesel and gasoline to be smuggled from Indonesia.

and so on so then you can have more cash to keep your island safe from shinking.

Remember global warming is speeding up, and you are sinking now with all beloves comrads in that tiny island there.

Good luck

Hi dragie ™, please let me know the name of the english-language training you're taking. Thank you.