Hand Amputation
Dec 16th, 2006, in News, by PatungIt is proposed that thieves in Aceh have their hands amputated.
According to international reports iht a draft law in circulation proposes that thieves found guilty of stealing goods worth more than the market price of 94 grams (3 ounces) of gold should have a hand amputated, a punishment which is said to be stipulated in the Koran, and is carried out in a few Islamic countries.
The draft law was published on the 12th in the form of an advertisement in Aceh’s Serambi newspaper that was paid for by the agency responsible for implementing Islamic sharia law, the Wilayatul Hisbah. The advertisement invited submissions and comments on the proposed law so it could be revised before being handed over to the local parliament for review.
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February 28th 2007.
The law is still in process and it is expected to be completed by the March. Al Yasa Abubakar, the head of the sharia office, says he hopes the law will lead to all forms of theft in the province disappearing.
The draft law stipulates that hand amputation will be incurred as a punishment only in certain cases, where the value of goods stolen would normally be subject to zakat, or charity tax, and where goods are stolen from their proper place of storage. The latter condition entails that muggers or pickpockets will not be subject to the punishment, and further, first offenders will also not be subject to the punishment; similarly if the offender stole for reasons of desperation, like hunger.
Abubakar said his office had received over 100 SMS messages, telephone calls, and letters stating approval for the proposed law. antara
77 Comments on “Hand Amputation”
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It seems that these kinds of laws, are for those who are very weak willed. It’s the easy way out and allows humans to be the natural primitive and barbaric beings that they are.
Thieves – cut off their hands!
Adulterers – stone them to death!
Rape victims – jail them! (cos rape victims are usually women, and they must produce at least 4 witnesses otherwise they have no case. In many cases, these women are seen as ‘asking for it’)Nowhere does it teach humans to be understanding, tolerant, forgiving, good samaritans, compassionate and kind hearted. Why? Cos be to all these things take more courage and guts!
An eye for an eye is the easiest way to succumb to our inner animal, but to be compassionate and forgiving is the hardest.I read in a media that the father of one of last week’s bomb victim has forgiven the bombers. Now, THAT take guts!
And I agree with most about the hand amputation law, it will only hurt the poor. I saw a chicken thief almost beaten to death by the mass. And he only finally stole because he had no other way to feed his family, while many of our corrupt leaders who keep on stealing from the people enjoy luxurious lives while being ass kissed by half the nation.
If there are people deserving to be amputated, it’s them, not petty thieves.
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Michael says:
Suryo – To be blunt, you still haven’t answered my simple (at least I thought) question, would you be happy to be put forward to have your hands removed (if you were, of course, given a ‘fair’ trial) while innocent, simply to act as a deterrent to others?
On another note, you’ve now named two people who have been wrongly convicted, yet state that timothy evans is ‘the only one that springs to mind’. A) ‘the only one that springs to mind’, is hardly conclusive, and B) will there be any more that ‘suddenly spring to mind?’ As far as this goes, might I get you to read from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jul/28/ukcrime.prisonsandprobation
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Overturned_convictions_in_the_United_Kingdom
(I realise that one of the above links is from wiki, but i’m relatively sure that given the time and effort I could verify many of these… and there are many)
Now, as far as ‘butter my parsnips’… you have a resounding ??? from myself and i’d beg to venture 99.9% of the English speaking world, please explain.
When it comes to my suggestions failing miserably in the uk, i’d like more of an explanation. Crime seems to be alot lower than in the days of corporal and capital punishment, and education is a proven factor in redusing crime and poverty.
And as far as political correctness goes, how is it waffle? How is it incorrect (the name itself implies correctness, not foolishness)? And why is it that when someone from the right wing of the track attempts to derail a solid argument, this is the first gun they reach for?
I look forward to your next post, but hope you put more research into this issue beforehand.
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Oigal says:
Micheal, you were doing ok until…
And as far as political correctness goes, how is it waffle? How is it incorrect (the name itself implies correctness, not foolishness)
PC is the indeed the last bastion of the foolish and the first arrow into the heart of free speech. But hey perhaps we should ask a chairperson to adjudicate…
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Crime seems to be alot lower than in the days of corporal and capital punishment, and education is a proven factor in redusing crime and poverty.
Jumping in as I’ve been reading some debates about this recently, but “seems”, have you got any evidence to suggest that crime is lower now than say, 1950, or 1900. I would have thought it the other way round, but if it is lower I rather doubt it’s got much to do with education or reducing poverty and more to do with lock up rates…
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Suryo Perkoso says:
Actually by stringing the buggers up, at least you prevent them from doing it again, and if they didn’t do it in the first place, then they won’t be able to commit an offense if the chance comes their way – it just has to make sense.
And while we are on the subject, when they take the photo’s for the “wanted” posters, why don’t they shoor the bloke at the same time? seems to me it would save a load of future grief.
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“shoor” should have course been “shoot”, but I am still a bit excited about Yenni.
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Odinius says:
Oigal said:
It would have a tad more credability if Sharia law in Aceh was applied to someone besides some poor bugger without two Rupiah to rub together.
Of course, the mere fact that no two Muslims can agree what Sharia Law actually is besides some fluid day dream of utopian laws where everyone lives happily ever after.
Witness Malaysian Sharia Banking..disallowed in any number of Arab countries as illegal..
Fatwa against Yoga, Non Voting, any number of religious beliefs but as far as I am aware none against bombs in Indonesia..
Do we wish to get into the differences of Sharia law between Islamic Sects?Yup..seems a simple, consistant, just and viable system to me…
You got it. Sharia is an abstract set of legal principles derived from the Quran. Actual punishments are from the hukum hudud, and come from the Sunnah, which incidentally no two Islamic sects agree on. Some of our resident Muslims on here don’t even believe one should ever follow the Sunnah, but the Quran only.
There is absolutely no mention of hand amputation in the Quran. There is an example of someone having his hand amputated for theft in one of the hadiths, but it’s not an actual statement that “you should always do this.” So sometime in ye olde medieval times, some ulamas decided this should be a general rule. Then it disappeared from most of the Islamic world when the ulamas decided it was all a bit primitive and not actually mandated by the religion. But then those wonderful fundamentalists running around the Arabian peninsula in the 19th century decided to bring it back. Fast forward a hundred years and their descendents, fueled by oil money, decide to tell the rest of the Islamic world that this is the ONLY “truth,” even though it’s enormously tenuous theologically.
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Wow, so many responses. Ok, in order:
I’m not a major advocate of political correctness, yet I see it as providing for much more level and interesting debate than provided by the Anne Coulther’s of the world, who choose to ignore it as much as possible. Having to rely on intellect alone and not prejudicial slurs seems to weed out those who are simply there for a yell and a rant.
As far as crime goes, its important to note that changes in law have made for more arrests over time. For example, the monetary amount related to larceny did not change, and in fact dropped in the 1950’s. By example, a 10 pound item in 1900 would have been worth many times that now, so while you may have gotten away with stealing something of worth a long time ago, today stealing a pair of cheap sneakers may land you in the clink. I’d suggest focusing on murder, as it is in line with the subject here, capital and corporal punishment. Murder rates, in fact have risen, by a minute amount. From around 10 per million of population to 14. Count in this, however, that since forensics has become much more adept in the last hundred years, what in the 1900’s would have been seen as ‘accidental death’ is much more likely to have been an actual murder. Hence I stand by my comment, corporal and capital punishment, do not work.
And Suryo, ah sweet ‘lets string the buggers up’ Suryo. When are you going to answer my question? Would you be happy to have your hands removed to act as a deterrant to others? Keeping in mind the criteria previously stipulated. Or are you, by not answering, in fact admitting that you have no answer, and that you really have not thought this through?
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OK, you wanted an answer. Should I have been born in a country where that was the punishment, or indeed moved to that country, then I expect I may think twice about incurring such a punishment, it’s really that simple, don’t stand on the gallows and tell the hangman that he is wrong, either don’t do it or be prepared to beg for clemency after the event –
Your question is really quite benign, it’s like asking if I would be happy to lose my license in the UK for drink drive as a deterent to others – yes of course I would, yippeee!!
Don’t be so daft, if you can’t do the time then don’t do the crime.
Now, if you asking me if I consider that a hand lopping for stealing a chicken is in order, then I might reply that it would seem a bit harsh – I wouldn’t however go stealing any chickens if that was the punishment, would you?
The UK has proven that this wet “ah bless the poor little f*ckers, they are the result of……” attitude doesn’t work. Yes, I am luck enough not to have to steal, there are course those who will steal many times, knowing the punishment, should we then give them a sweety and send them on their way? I’m interested to know what sort of prevention you are suggesting.
It’s a bit like children, and I wonder if you have any at this juncture – some are lucky to be blessed with kids that never do anything wrong, some of us are closer to the earth and have kids that are naughty and need discipline – my kids are pretty well behaved by all accounts, because they are quite well aware what will happen if they aren’t – one is already missing three fingers, and we cut the ears off the little one.
I would hazzard a guess and suggest that you don’t agree in any form of physical punishment for children – if this is the case and of course it is your right, then I’d introduce you to my neighbours middle daughter who is the closest thing to satan on earth, and if you didn’t want to knock seven colours out of her when she is performing at her best, then there would be something wrong with you. Now please note that there is a big difference between wanting and doing.
Perhaps you might enlighten me as to the correct punishment for a violent murder should be, and the causing death by driving under the influence?
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Of course, Suryo, the American “shoot ’em and let god sort ’em out” attitude hasn’t really solved criminality there either. Studies have found zero correlation between existence/non-existence of capital punishment in various states and the homicide rate. One thing that points to is that neither a hard fist nor a gentle hand is any sort of guarantee that you will effectively fight crime.
But then you have both very repressive countries like Saudi Arabia and Singapore, and ultra-PC lefty countries like Norway and Sweden heading up the list of lowest crime rates. I’d guess it’s the fact that all four of those countries are socially conformist that explains it. In the US and UK, by contrast, there’s some degree of cultural glorification of the criminal, particularly in the inner cities where most of it takes place. In Sweden, however, you can be socially ostracized for any number of transgressions, including improper use of a turn signal. Probably takes the fun out of robbing that bank.
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Odinius – I like your thinking, and in hindsight, it probably would have put this issue to bed earlier. At any rate i’m about done with this issue. Not quite though…
Suryo, you still, in fact have not answered my original question, i’ll refer to your previous posts here:
‘In anycase I can’t see what all the fuss is about – stringing up a few, GUILTY OR NOT, serves as an admirable deterrent.’
‘and IF THEY DIDN’T DO IT in the first place, then they won’t be able to commit an offense if the chance comes their way’
Note the capitalised areas, what I was asking, was that if you were one of those innocents convicted, considering your stance, would you smile, and walk quietly to have your hands non-surgically removed? I mean, as you said, guilty or not, you’d be happy to have such a deterrant.
When it comes to me having children? No I dont, I have, however, seen the effects of battered children, and it is not pretty. My cousins had a father who was quick with the belt, and are now the only members of my family to have been in and out of jail their entire lives. If you ask me, i’d link that almost directly to what they put up with in their father. Completely de-sensitised to violence.
As for you mutilating your poor children, let me say that i’m thankful I live nowhere near you, and consider your actions inhumane and monstrous. If you come back with ‘they’re my children and I will do as I please’, then I should hope that when they are adults and have to take care of you, that you dont misbehave.
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I wonder if they they will amputate one’s hand for jerking off?
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@Michael, grow up a little. Have you heard the phrase “Horses, women and carpets are all improved by beating”? no,perhaps not.
So, you can guarantee that a kid who gets a thick ear when he deserves it will go to gaol?
And how did I know that you didn’t have kids – wishy washy “ah bless the mass murderer” type of attitude gave that one away. My children are rarely disciplined, and are well behaved, polite and “mandiri” – if it is necessary however, they will be disciplined as required. My kids do not run around resto’s screaming their tits off, my kids respect everyone that they come into contact with, whatever their status.
I can only suspect that your comments about “mutilating” children are tongue in cheek, if they are not, then you are seriously demented. May I also extend my heartfelt desire that you end up with a couple of little turds who draw all over your walls, set fire to the cat, throw Indomie at your wife, and generally do the things that kids can do if they are not disciplined correctly. Of course, some maybe lucky and have kids that cough wonders, fart miracles and shit little balls of cotton wool, but for those of us who don’t , we have a duty to bring our kids up properly .
@Odinius & Michael – so what is the answer then? there has to be a punishment – Michael would like to put flowers in their hair and get them to whistle zipppedeedodah out of their flanges, but we know that there has to be a punishment, and if capital punishment doesn’t go, then what? 5 years for murder, then let them out, or does life, mean life?
Poor Michael doesn’t like the idea of stringing someone up for murder, I wonder if equally he would like to see a murderer walk after 5 years as has become the case in the UK – I’ll say again, with capital punishment, at least they never reoffended, how many murderers have murdered again after release?
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The point, Suryo, is that harsher penalties don’t necessarily translate into any appreciable drop in crime. Neither do lighter penalties. In fact, they don’t really seem to matter that much at all.
So by all means support capital punishment if you like, but be clear about why–it’s emotional retribution, not a practical way to keep crime down.
Whether that’s okay or not is another story. The rather gaudy number of overturned convictions through DNA evidence here makes me think it’s not a terribly good way to go about things, but then again, neither is prison. Both America’s and Indonesia’s prison systems are essentially crime schools.
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Christ Suryo, you really like to take things to the extreme dont you? A) you admitted to chopping off your childs fingers and ears, quote ‘one is already missing three fingers, and we cut the ears off the little one.’ Now anyone who finds that sort of treatment towards children appropriate has a screw loose in my book.
B) When did I suggest that we allow murderers to run free with quote ‘flowers in their hair and get them to whistle zipppedeedodah’? I’d suggest that a more appropriate way to repay society would be through forced labour, a lifetime of it if need be, at least you’d be putting them to good use.
As for me ‘having little turds’, I will, and while they will be reprimanded for any wrongdoings, it wont be circa 1850’s punishment. It will be something representing a more civilised attitude, hence teaching that violence is wrong, yet should not be met with more violence. As Ghandi said, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
And no, i’ve met plenty of people who have been beaten as children, and they’re not all in jail. My gardener is one, as is my cleaning guy, and the guy who works sorting the mail in my building, spotting a pattern here?
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Matthew says:
I am glad I live in the UK. A free country, anyone has the right to do what they want. Problem is though that if someone burgal your house – you are advised to let them get on with it and not try and stop them as if you hurt or injure the burglar in any way, the burglar can take you to court for their injuries. Best way to stop yourself getting burgled is to install security locks on doors and windows and put up secutiry lighting outside the house. Burglary is rare thoughm I have never been burgled or assulted yet, and I am nearly 40. These countries with odd religious laws are in the old times. All religions should be banned as they cause hate and terror, they are all just made up myths and no one has ever proved that any sort of god exists. Muslims use the excuse of religion to create terrorists and attacks. If there was no religion, the world would be a lot more of a better place to live. Look at all the scientific evidence.
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It would have a tad more credability if Sharia law in Aceh was applied to someone besides some poor bugger without two Rupiah to rub together.
Of course, the mere fact that no two Muslims can agree what Sharia Law actually is besides some fluid day dream of utopian laws where everyone lives happily ever after.
Witness Malaysian Sharia Banking..disallowed in any number of Arab countries as illegal..
Fatwa against Yoga, Non Voting, any number of religious beliefs but as far as I am aware none against bombs in Indonesia..
Do we wish to get into the differences of Sharia law between Islamic Sects?
Yup..seems a simple, consistant, just and viable system to me…