55 Comments on “BPK Penabur in Cisarua, Bogor”
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macannyantai says:
May 4th, 2010 at 1:50 amHmmm… being number #62 and being in the warning category means, that we are not in the failed state index? However, we ARE on the list, and pretty much high up in the “warning” category.
If you ask my opinion, a failed state is a state in which the government cannot prevent stuff like this happening. Let’s again look at Indonesia. There are certain groups, allegedly backed up by “people with power” who can afford to rampage, vandalize, do “sweepings” against businesses, groups of people etc. with the police just standing-by powerless (or paid off – however you may see it).
That for me shows – list or no list – that to a certain degree our state has FAILED to enforce its constitution.
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Odinius says:
May 4th, 2010 at 2:34 ammacannyantai:
Indonesia is indeed on the failed-state index (FSI). But so are Switzerland, Singapore, Sweden and Canada. Notably, the latter four countries are at the bottom of the index, around the 150+ range. Indonesia is at #62, which means that while it’s no Canada, it’s also not considered a “failed state,” according to the FSI.
You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, that runs contrary to the findings in the FSI. But the FSI data clearly does not claim that Indonesia is a “failed state.”
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Hans says:
May 4th, 2010 at 3:55 amfailed states index
Using 12 indicators of state cohesion and performance, compiled through a close examination of more than 30,000 publicly available sources, we ranked 177 states in order from most to least at risk of failure. I do not get it odinus, Nr 1 is very bad and Nr 177 is the best 1. For example, Zimbabwe (No. 2 on the index) is technically failing more than Iraq (6) -
May 4th, 2010 at 8:33 amWhat don’t you get, Hans? The FSI provides a subjective measure of state failure, but one backed by a transparent and reproducible methodology. I wouldn’t consider it the word of god, by any means, but very useful for someone doing cross-sectional analysis.
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Hans says:
May 4th, 2010 at 12:12 pmI do not think this index is particularly important, it is very expensive to get to the top. Like Sweden, where I live and pay taxes, Rp 260 million in tax-pat in last year
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May 4th, 2010 at 1:34 pmOdinius:
Well, it IS an index. And as you see, we’re not very high up there. So, therefore MY opinion points in the same direction and NOT contrary to the index.
Hell, the index is a gradation from best to worse, and it’s not like: “Oh, cool! We’re not in the top ten with somalia etc., so it’s okay to let things like above discussed incident slide!”
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David says:
May 4th, 2010 at 2:02 pmAhem there was a post on the Failed States Index.
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Laurence says:
May 4th, 2010 at 5:50 pmCowards, thugs and losers, only reason someone would burn anything regardless of religion.
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May 4th, 2010 at 10:05 pmmacannyantai:
Odinius:
Well, it IS an index. And as you see, we’re not very high up there. So, therefore MY opinion points in the same direction and NOT contrary to the index.
Hell, the index is a gradation from best to worse, and it’s not like: “Oh, cool! We’re not in the top ten with somalia etc., so it’s okay to let things like above discussed incident slide!”
What you said was:
one of the reasons Indonesia is on the failed states index.
If you meant this literally, then it’s meaningless, as Sweden and Canada are “on the index” too.
If you meant this to imply Indonesia is a failed state, then you didn’t read the index properly.
If you actually meant to say “one of the reasons Indonesia is so high on the failed states index,” then I’d probably actually agree with you.
But the way you wrote it implied Indonesia is considered a failed state by the FSI. It’s not.
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May 4th, 2010 at 10:07 pmhans said:
I do not think this index is particularly important, it is very expensive to get to the top. Like Sweden, where I live and pay taxes, Rp 260 million in tax-pat in last year
But you get something for your skatt, don’t you?
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May 5th, 2010 at 12:03 amPatung,
thanks for pointing out that the Failed State Index has been discussed on this forum already – I can even see the same people calling the index “stupid”.
Well, I won’t comment on this topic again.
I’m no expert by all means, and I don’t blindly believe in statistics, but from my experience of living 28 years in Europe I can safely say that the government in Indonesia is having less of a grip over its enforcement of laws than let’s say most countries in the EU, for example. And one the fruits of that sad reality is the BPK Penabur incident.
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diego says:
May 5th, 2010 at 12:50 amHi Mr. Obvious,
Thanks for confirming that indonesian government is less capable than that of european countries. I always ass.u.me.d that. Now that I got your confirmation, I can _safely_ tell my friends that indonesia is a 3rd-world country.
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May 5th, 2010 at 1:10 amYou’re most welcome, Diego! I just needed to clarify that for any foreigners coming from OTHER 3rd world countries.
And, oh… please do tell your friends. Tell them the police here is as corrupt as they are in your native Mexico, and tell them that they will feel right at home here in Indonesia!
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My Corner says:
May 5th, 2010 at 6:53 amI dont agree in what explained or you call it analysis in your article.. you dont write it from both perspective..
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Gurkha says:
May 5th, 2010 at 12:57 pmThe only reason anyone would use an excuse like that is because they surffer from the national problem – INSECURITY and IMMATURITY.
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realest says:
May 5th, 2010 at 1:00 pmReligion just happens to be a convenient excuse the mastermind concocted to gather support from poor folks to vent their frustration upon.
According to wiki, half the world are 3rd world countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg -
venna says:
May 5th, 2010 at 6:34 pmReligion just happens to be a convenient excuse the mastermind concocted to gather support from poor folks to vent their frustration upon.
______________Yep, especially when there is no good system and fair justice. People look upon something higher than themselves where they can have a grip, or desperately hoping that Messiah or Ratu Adil will come to save them.
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May 5th, 2010 at 11:26 pmMy Corner said:
I dont agree in what explained or you call it analysis in your article.. you dont write it from both perspective..
And what perspective would that be? I can think of several, some of which are more legitimate than others.
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May 5th, 2010 at 11:31 pmrealest said:
Religion just happens to be a convenient excuse the mastermind concocted to gather support from poor folks to vent their frustration upon.
I think you’re right in many ways, but wrong in one other. Right, in the sense that this kind of thing happens plenty without religion, so it can’t just be about religion. It can be ethnic, nationalist, regional, etc. Indonesia, not to mention the rest of the world, can offer up a lot of examples of mob violence that have nothing to do with religion. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the underlying problem isn’t something Islamic or Christian, but the fact that Indonesian society, at present, contains structural incentives for the use of mob violence to solve political problems, and few disincentives.
On the other hand, I think you may underestimate the degree to which the people inciting this act were motivated by a sense of religious righteousness.
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Hans says:
May 5th, 2010 at 11:43 pmOdinius Yes, we get a lot of our tax money. School costs absolutely the most. Medical care is OK, Dentists are expensive, very expensive every time I go ther. Swedish military may not under any circumstances help the police and this is probably a very good thing, and is a big difference from many other countries. most importantly, is that we feel safe and that the state can protect us, it has its price to, we know that all Internet traffic, mobile phones, and all faxes are intercepted by the military. The police come very quickly if something happens, if more trouble, a police picket come and at worst case we get national task force that is very well armed, And Odinius I have not complained about the tax, saying only that it is expensive to get to the top and what our school and hospital does not have to do with the national security situation, more than the child is as a child and can go to school safely and securely
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May 6th, 2010 at 12:08 amYou need not apologize for it’s just that you wrote about it is all about,
______I didn’t aim to apologize, actually. I just expressed my feeling. Moslems, even they are majority in this country, do not mean they are safer. Anytime they can be the next target too, just the same like others. Especially when some politicians keep using this for their own sake; take advantage on poor emotional masses who are basically have nothing to hold but their grip to their religion/race/party/idols.
And related to religion, it always sounds ironic every time people comment, like this for example: “Duh… itu koruptor kok ya masih bisa bebas! semoga Tuhan membalasnya kelak! Kalau tidak bisa dihukum di dunia, semoga kelak masuk neraka!” A real desperation when there is no fair treatment and almost no justice. Waiting God, while watching those troublemakers walking freely in front of them. For how many years they have to wait? And how they will know the results? God will never send troops or consultants to this country to solve such problem like this. People who live there that should do the job. Stop injustice, stop violence. -
Zorobabel says:
May 14th, 2010 at 3:19 amI would have to say that I agree that the problem here isn’t really Islam–at least, I don’t consider that the root of the problem.
There is a ‘riot culture’ in Indonesia, but that is just a symptom of what’s tearing Indonesia apart: no rule of law. We all know that laws mean nothing here. You can take someone in your bedroom, shoot them with a shotgun, pay the right people and you might have to spend a few years in a prison cell.
That’s why the anti-pornography law, for instance, stipulates that vigalantism is acceptable. Indonesia does not have a functioning legal system. So of course people riot over every little thing. There’s basically a void and radical Islamists are filling that void. Thus there have been probably close to 200 legally constructed churches destroyed since 1999.
The Indonesian government really has no desire or incentive to improve the situation, either. Local officials benefit from having close relations with large Muslim groups, while the central government has no desire to stamp out these kinds of activities. SBY, as nice a guy as he is, has no real desire to continue Indonesia’s reformation. They’re more concerned with economic development.Lucky for us, economic development has unintended consequences like better education, exposure to global issues, and higher standards of governance. In Jakarta, where they are nearly 20% of the population, Christians have made their stand and radical Muslims have mostly backed down. For example, they tried to prevent the construction of the GRII megachurch in Kemayoran when it started back in 2007 but failed.
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diego says:
May 18th, 2010 at 5:20 amAmigos,
Please read this: http://www.tempointeraktif.com/hg/amerika/2010/05/18/brk,20100518-248495,id.html
(relevant to the topic)
Those arabs / arabwasheds always demand us — kafirs — to be sensitive to them. But look what they do / want to do to the people of NYC. Geesh….
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Ross says:
May 18th, 2010 at 5:39 amSince we are already far from Bogor on this thread, let’s examine one of the reasons why Islamonazis are getting away with…murder?
Here’s a clip from one of the Jakarta papers recently.
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Going by the aliases Nata, Arman, Andri and a string of other names, Sonata had been sentenced to seven years in jail in 2006 for hiding Noordin and for possession of illegal firearms. He was released in April 2009 on good behavior.
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So this creep served barely three years of a seven year term? What kind of deterrent is that? I know the scum like Tomi Suharto and the Hilton murderer get out of jail almost scot-free of punishment, but they are rich. Disgraceful, but for different reasons.We have a situation in Indonesia whereby terrorists are shot and captured by the security forces (GOOD) but then if they go to prison, they get to use handphones and laptops to stay in touch with their comrades outside, and if they don’t upset the guards are released incredibly early to resume their careers in mayhem. (BAD)
Why is this? They are probably not wealthy, tho terrorist leaders are rarely poor, so is it a sign of sympathy for their aims if not their methods?
But their aims are clearly treasonous, the overthrow of Pancasila and this archipelago’s annexation into a transnational caliphate tyranny.
Better surely to hang them. Nice to see 88 kill a few, but the state ought to finish the job properly. THAT would send a clear message to the enemy. -
HeavenlySword says:
May 24th, 2010 at 9:57 pmfunction brainFilter {
if (word == “christian”)
find excuses
if found {
get query resources > 100 people;
print “for the sake of Islam”;
run riot;
}
else {
find again
}
}
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