55 Comments on “BPK Penabur in Cisarua, Bogor”
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Rambutan says:
April 29th, 2010 at 10:28 amI always wonder why so many Muslims are so terribly horrified by the idea of living next to Christians or – even worse – having to witness a Christian religious ceremony. What do they want? Total segregation of religions? A religious apartheid regime? Or even better, kick all other religions out of Indonesia alltogether?
And MUI is now actively involved in violent attacks on Christians? Time to reconsider the existence of this institution I think.
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ET says:
April 29th, 2010 at 3:37 pmOr even better, kick all other religions out of Indonesia alltogether?
And then establish a caliphate under syariah law. Hasn’t it become clear yet that this is the ultimate goal of Islam? And the moderates will be smothered. That’s why they are called moderates.
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Nay says:
April 29th, 2010 at 3:39 pmYa Allah,
Save me from your followers. -
Oigal says:
April 29th, 2010 at 4:02 pmMake every day Kartini Day, reclaim Indonesian Culture and dispense with these ignorant drab bigots
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Odinius says:
April 29th, 2010 at 10:18 pmI don’t really see this as terribly Islamic, except in the most superficial way. Muslims have a right to protest and dispute something peacefully, as do all other people.
The difference here is the method, which is NOT peaceful. That’s a running meme in post-Suharto history…elites organizing common folk around some “identity politics” and using riots as a means of solving disputes with other elites. As I mentioned in the Batam riot threat, the Indonesian government is demonstrating its very poor commitment to containing this ILLEGITIMATE form of protest. This is another example of Indonesians solving disputes with riot violence, with the government sitting idly by until it decides to tackle “the root problem.”
NEWSFLASH: rioting is the root problem. It doesn’t matter whether the rioters cover their actions with a religious shawl, an ethnic shawl or a nationalist shawl…it’s just plain wrong, and self-defeating for a government to be so laissez-faire with this kind of egregious vigilantism.
If Indonesia doesn’t do something about it, it will develop an “institutional riot system” like in India.
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Ross says:
April 30th, 2010 at 1:22 amYa, okay, Odinius, they all have a right to protest, but what about that JP interview with the Muhammadiyah guy? That’s the problem, not a ‘riot culture.’ They just can’t live and let live. If Ahmadiyah or Lia Eden or Al Qidayeh feel they want to express their beliefs other than in a closed cupboard, they are ipso facto quote ‘disturbing’ or ‘upsetting’ Muslims.
It’s this infantile mentality that ‘we get disturbed by having to observe or hear anybody else’s point of view.’ So do many of us. We don’t suppress the other guy, or burn his car, we just get a life and maybe wonder why we need to feel so insecure.
Why don’t the immature twits try growing up? -
Hans says:
April 30th, 2010 at 1:30 amTherefore, we must remember the genocide in Rwanda.
It can also happen here – Although the situation is different here and
democracy and the rule of law, I think on paper. The poverty and
injustices that play a large role in the development of the Rwandan genocide
We have not been able to work away from us. The level of education quite different for some. But there is no guarantee the long term. History teaches us that behind the assault on their own population are processes which emerged over a long period. Step by step,
marginalized groups, questioned and harassed. The majority have come
at what is happening is normal and justifiable, and argued that these
groups have no place in society but must be relegated out of the
national community. The final stage is total elimination.It was what I get in this way Indonesia murdered union members, total elimination, how lucky we was that there were a few who survived in Bali at that time.
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Hans says:
April 30th, 2010 at 1:52 amMy favorite quote fits very well here
“We should call things by their right names. What is now underway in Indonesia is a form of torture. The remedy is to torment people, hurts to humiliate other religions and peoples, forcing it into submission to the language of force.
Therefore, this is an atrocity, with terrorist ties. Hence there are many in modern history. They are often connected by name.
Guernica, Oradour, Babi Yar, Katyn, Lidice, Christmas 1972, 11 September, Rwanda Sharpeville and Treblinka.Violence has triumphed.
But after the world judged them hard over they who had the responsibility.
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April 30th, 2010 at 5:35 amRoss said,
Ya, okay, Odinius, they all have a right to protest, but what about that JP interview with the Muhammadiyah guy? That’s the problem, not a ‘riot culture.’ They just can’t live and let live.
Tell me something, Ross:
*could the rioters in Batam who were beating up any Indian national they could find “live and let live?” were they motivated by Islam?
*could the anti-migrant rioters in Dili 1994 “live and let live?” were they motivated by Islam?
*could the Dayaks who ethnically cleansed West and Central Kalimantan 1996-2001 “live and let live?” were they motivated by Islam?
*could the Ambonese Christians who initiated that horrible violence in 1999 (and ended up its ultimate victims) “live and let live?” were they motivated by Islam?
Indonesia has a lot of riots. Most involve Muslims because, well, the country is mostly Muslim. But when you look at the past 15 years, find a lot of riots that don’t directly involve Islam, or involve Muslims as victims. Islam, or more precisely, certain ideologies within Indonesian Islam, is what gives you the political position. These may be highly objectionable–and I agree, the intolerance on display offends my sensibilities. But it’s Indonesia’s tolerance of rioting and rioters that gives you endemic riots.
It’s par for the course for people to solve their disputes with mob vigilantism. The government needs to send a message that this is an illegitimate form of protest.
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Oigal says:
April 30th, 2010 at 9:20 amMake every day Kartini Day, reclaim Indonesian Culture and dispense with these ignorant drab bigots
Ok..Ody has some fair points and I confess only being flippant…
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Ross says:
April 30th, 2010 at 1:11 pmTreu, Odinius, not all the trouble arises from religion, or its misuse, but the point i was making is that a certain kind of Muslim, increasingly common, alas, has a childish attitude.
The riot in Batam was due to an insult, a felt hurt. The riot in Tanjung Priok was due to a threat of action they didn’t like, demolition.
But in Puncak, there was no insult, no threat, only people performing their duties and prayers. No Muslim had to go there to watch them or listen to them. Yet they are so bigotedly malicious that they went all the way to the site and behaved like barbarians.Until leaderships like Muhammadiyah’s etc stand up and say there is nothing wrong with having a church in our neighbourhood, we have the confidence to be next door to Christian prayers without fear of losing Muslims to another religion, we have faith in Islam and don’t need to whine about hearing hymns from down the street, then the thugs like those in Puncak will feel at ease to run amok.
It wouldn’t stop all anti-social hoodlum activity, but a visit by NU and or Muhammadiyah high-ups to the scene of the arson to express sincere regrets would be a huge boost to tolerance.
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April 30th, 2010 at 10:19 pmThey should stand up for the building of churches, just like Western community leaders should stand up for the building of mosques. Religious freedom is a glorious thing, to be cherished and protected, as it cherishes and protects everyone.
But it’s one thing to be intolerant, and it’s another to use mob violence to achieve some goal of your intolerance. I’d say that tolerating the former is an acceptable, if still lamentable, condition of being a democracy. The latter is not.
At the end of the day, it’s the Indonesian government that has to send the message that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
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Muhammad Rijal says:
April 30th, 2010 at 11:34 pmdon’t use Islam to attack another religions!!
Islam never teach us to use violence before the other attack Islam at the first time.
Ya Allah, may they who use the name of Islam in the wrong way get your hidayah.
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capekdeh says:
May 1st, 2010 at 2:09 amIf people knew they couldn’t get away with it, they wouldn’t be doing this. It took me a few weeks of watching Indo news regularly to realize that I was watching the same fcuking thing everyday with different headlines. Indonesia really needs to take care of its rioting problem. You’d think they would have it down to a science by now.. I mean really, after all this time, why is there not a mobile, effective task force specifically trained to break up riots in a quick and orderly manner? I probably don’t actually want to know the answer to that…
capek dechhhhhhh
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May 1st, 2010 at 7:36 amcapekdeh said:
You’d think they would have it down to a science by now..
They do:
1. Stand around
2. Let the crowd burn stuff, maybe kill people
3. Go in once it’s cooled down
4. Arrest the people who angered the mob, even if it’s bullsh**
5. Maybe arrest one or two members of the mob
6. Don’t touch any of the people who incited itRinse and repeat.
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Berlian Biru says:
May 1st, 2010 at 7:54 amRoss if you continue to view these events through the prism of intolerant Islam you will continue to fail to understand what is really happening. No one loathes militant Islamism more than I do, I can’t abide them and I have no doubt that much of the spark for the trouble in Puncak came from Islamic agitators, but a spark can’t set off an explosion if there isn’t ample fuel already there waiting to ignite.
You seem to believe that there are somehow “justifiable” riots and this one isn’t because it involves Islam whereas it is my contention that the root of all three recent riots stem from exactly the same source and such incidents will continue to recur with increasing frequency with seemingly disparate causes if the underlying causes aren’t dealt with.
It all boils down to being powerless in a rapidly developing society. If you are poor, if you have no stake in society except for a basic local community spirit then you react badly when you perceive outsiders moving into “your” area and changing your way of life. It’s a situation as old as the hills and far from being restricted to Indonesia and Islam is in fact a global phenomenon.
It’s the same in the mean streets and dreary housing estates of North Belfast where one community is always deeply suspicious of “them’uns” or “the other lot” moving into their area, Northern Ireland is often referred to as a religious conflict, trust me what happened in the Troubles had nothing to do with the doctrine of Papal Infalibility or a dispute over the Thirty Nine Articles. It’s the same in Bradford and Burnley and the other run down mill towns of northern England where the “Pakis” and “immigrants” always seem to be taking over, it’s the same in Cronulla where true born Aussies saw their way of life being threatened by waves of “Lebbos” coming in and messing up the beach. Forty years of Communist tyranny couldn’t suppress it in Yugolslavia.
So you have it in Tanjung Priok where the locals felt that powerful, richer forces where trying to take over their territory, so it is in Batam where underpaid local workers resent the “influx” of Indian workers who lord it over them and so it is in Puncak. Puncak is a very desirable area, there’s a serious amount of money chasing land in that part of the world and meanwhile the locals whose area it is see there homes being turned over to the rich and powerful who transform the place into their weekend playground while they see few if any benefits other than in low paid jobs as maids or drivers.
The locals can’t do much about the well-connected politicians buying up the land nor about the retired generals who are doing so nicely thank you very much, because they can make trouble for you, but what better a target to vent your frustration upon than a Christian centre, owned by rich Chinese businessmen from Jakarta? All it needs is for the trouble makers from the local mosque to give them the nod and the wink to have a go at the usual scapegoats and the local boyos get a chance to blow off steam.
I’ve said it before, these church blockades and burnings are not happening in Menteng nor in Pondok Indah, they’re happening in the new developing, rapidly changing sattelite suburbs and new towns in the oustskirts of Jakarta and if you continue to believe that all it’s about is the intolerance of Muslims to having Christians in their midsts then you will continue to completely misunderstand what is really going on around you.
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David says:
May 1st, 2010 at 10:04 amt took me a few weeks of watching Indo news regularly to realize that I was watching the same fcuking thing everyday with different headlines.
That’s really bugging me atm, not good with kids in the house for them to see/hear it, and the wife leaves the tv running and almost every day it’s the same, large groups of people angry, shouting, pushing, fighting.
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May 1st, 2010 at 10:38 pmThe news is also too gory for kids, whenever there’s a violent event. The constant focus on body parts, blood and guts, etc. is all a bit too much.
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akhta says:
May 1st, 2010 at 11:17 pmI don’t know how to comment on it news. Brutalism is everywhere. How to solve this problem? Hmmm……
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Hans says:
May 1st, 2010 at 11:20 pmUN tribunal to provide justice, a little slow in my own taste. Now thirty years after the regime’s case go to a United Nations tribunal in Phnom Penh to do justice to the Red Khemerernas reign of terror in Cambodia. Good it would be if the UN tribunal soon also took a look at what has occurred in Timor Leste, and gives politicians a hint that they are responsible for both what they do and are expected to do. I need hardly tell abt the old soldiers who today have nice houses and cars and who today has scanty what is needed for the day. Yes I live with them and meet them every day, when we are in Indonesia.
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May 1st, 2010 at 11:37 pmHej Hans,
It’s not precisely a UN tribunal in Phnom Penh, but a joint tribunal run with the Cambodian government. A very strange setup, but the only one the government would acquiesce to. It’s also a completely different situation than with regards to East Timor, so it’s not really a portable model.
Indonesia is not going to back a tribunal for East Timor, so someone would have to take it up with the ICC. Timor Leste’s leaders have publicly said they won’t do that, though, as they prefer to try to build practical relations with Indonesia than pursue justice. So that’s where we are…
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Ross says:
May 2nd, 2010 at 2:23 am1. Stand around
2. Let the crowd burn stuff, maybe kill people
3. Go in once it’s cooled down
4. Arrest the people who angered the mob, even if it’s bullsh**
5. Maybe arrest one or two members of the mob
6. Don’t touch any of the people who incited itPerfect ly put, Odinius and we all know it’s true!- but what will SBY do about these rancid cowardly time-serving corrupt good-for-nothings? That’s the question.
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Hans says:
May 2nd, 2010 at 4:36 amyes Ross
They whill do nothing. look like they have serious knowledge. Keep on to be Good for nothing. beq The majority think what is happening is normal and justifiable. like this fuking murder in Rwanda did -
venna says:
May 2nd, 2010 at 8:19 pmI watched violence since I was a kid… petrus, sampit, sampang, ninja in east java, poso, pdi-p, bali…. not including daily violence shown on tivi. People use everything to legitimate their brutal acts, not only religion, but ALL. And it is not only the people, the government too often use violence to solve problems or for their own interest: DOM in Aceh, East Timor, Papua…. You name it. And you can see, some of the big troublemakers are still free today.
I know the feeling of being helpless in the middle of violence shows. When “ninja” attacked and killed lots of kyais in east java, I could not sleep at all during the night. The air was thick with horror, I felt anytime my life could be ended, and no one would defend and protect us. Nor the polices or armies. We have to protect ourselves. When killings happened in Sampit, I could not sleep too and was horrified. Visiting Sulawesi and Ambon, I could feel the same thick darkness in the air. And most started when the polices/government failed to respond appropriately to some people who were abused by the others.
Enough is enough. Too much brutal shows, I cannot think clearly or reading analysis without involving my emotion.
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macannyantai says:
May 3rd, 2010 at 11:50 amOne of the reasons Indonesia is on the Failed-State Index. It all looks good on paper, with all the democracy-free-speech-multi-beliefs state-thingy. But the government is obviously not able to enforce that …nor do the citizens know what democracy is all about.
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May 3rd, 2010 at 12:18 pmWhat failed state index is that?? Indonesia certainly doesn’t belong on one. While there are undeniably many problems Indonesia is far from being a failed state.
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realest says:
May 3rd, 2010 at 12:31 pmI know a little about this one. BPK Penabur made a critical mistake of not paying off the local elders. What naivety relying on the law to do its proper job !!
You see that weasel throwing a brick on the first picture of this article? Chances are he’ll escape any charges of the arson damages worth Rp 500jt. I hope they’ve the building insured. -
Elsa117 says:
May 3rd, 2010 at 1:22 pmIt is really sad to know this news.
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Hans says:
May 3rd, 2010 at 1:27 pmHi Venna. – You need not apologize for it’s just that you wrote about it is all about, what people are feeling in the heart, if the state can protect the people, what is normal and then how people plus all this together, to their own best situation. East of Senduro I think it´s a notorious spot. and do not forget Rwanda
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May 3rd, 2010 at 10:38 pmmacannyantai said:
One of the reasons Indonesia is on the Failed-State Index.
rambutan said:
What failed state index is that?? Indonesia certainly doesn’t belong on one. While there are undeniably many problems Indonesia is far from being a failed state.
This one:
http://www.fundforpeace.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=391&Itemid=549
As you can see, Indonesia is #62 out of 177 on the list for 2009. That puts it in the middle of the “warning” category, NOT the “failed state” category,
However, the methodology for this is questionable. Why on earth would Thailand, in the midst of political paralysis, ruled by an unstable coup regime backed by a military that refuses to submit to civilian authority, and plagued by a very deadly insurgency be #79? Maybe a few years ago, but come on.
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