Bekasi Bigots

Feb 21st, 2010, in IM Posts, Opinion, by Ross

View the original article here.

196 Comments on “Bekasi Bigots”

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ET Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Odinius said

There was grumbling about making English the official language of the country in the 1990s, but this has dissipated as studies have come out showing, clearly, that virtually everyone speaks and reads English, and that the percentages have not declined.

To conclude this out of topic aside, of course everyone speaks and reads English, not only in America but also in most parts of the world. It is a beautiful, rich, even melodious language and for practical reasons it probably is the most obvious lingua franca. What I was denouncing is the fact that a majority of native speakers just take for granted that everyone should understand and speak it and that those who are less fluent are often cast aside or considered less important. Where ever I have been in the world I still have to meet the first Anglo Saxon who wasn’t supposing that his language was at least basically understood by the locals.
Ross Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
This is undoubtedly true for some, and I have always been appalled by bules here who won’t even try to learn a bit of Indonesian. That was the first thing I did when I got here, and it’s been a worthwhile investment of time and effort.
But the same sauce is good for geese and gander. If people choose to settle in an English-speaking country (or a French- or Russian-speaking country) it is their bounden duty to integrate linguistically and the country concerned has the right to require it of aspirant citizens.
Otherwise you will be hobbled by diversity.
The Swiss cantons voluntarily united despite their four different languages, and most Indonesian ethnic groups opted to become one country despite language differences, but that is a voluntary unity.
If there is an existing cultural/linguistic set-up in a country, it is folly to diversify that unity by immigration of groups recalcitrant about assimilating.
venna Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
@ET:
It’s not only the case for women, venna. Society and culture decides for all of us what happiness should be until you come to a point where you are able to show them the little finger. Then – provided they didn’t succeed to turn you into a coach potato or an acrimonious hag – you can pursue your own goals and reach for true happiness.
________________
Agree. But I still think that women need to learn more on how to use their little finger since lots of people still trying to ‘convert” them into bitter lonely young grandmas. Amazing to see how some societies try to control women so much when they consider them as weaker creatures.

@katadiatheimmigrant: are you legal or illegal? Hahah *evil grin* No, I’m just kidding.

@Ross: No wonder he got attacked. His statement sounds like from a prehistoric era. But I’m interested with those “weirdos” there, or what you called as feminazis. I’ll read about them more.

@Deta:
is not merely about not getting appreciation from the society, but the unease comes mostly from the sense of income insecurity, because they have to depend on their husbands to provide for their and their kids’ life. It’s quite wearisome, especially in Indonesia where there is no protection for women regarding their income when something happens to the marriage.
__________________

Good point, Deta. It is wearisome. For this case, being independent economically is a way to prevent unexpected damages during the marriage, and give them more bargaining power just in case they got problem and the systems do not support women. Unfortunately in Indonesia, lots of laws and rules are pretty much discriminative to women. I have some friends that get abused economically by their husbands, and they have to go to work again because it is the only way to keep them alive and sane, since they still cannot divorce their spouses. It’s not easy for them to free themselves from the abusive situation; first because people around them tend to judge them as “bad woman” if they leave their husbands, second because they don’t know where to seek help, and the emotional damages already make them weak. Not a happy case, certainly.

By the way, the case on rural life here is a little bit different than rural life in Indonesia. The percentage of domestic violence in rural area is pretty high compared to urban area because the social support doesn’t work well. Take a look at the case of domestic violence in Kentucky.
venna Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Ross Says:

This is undoubtedly true for some, and I have always been appalled by bules here who won’t even try to learn a bit of Indonesian.
___________
I met some of them too, and to tell you the truth, I really dislike them. Some are more disgusting, they keep using English to Indonesian people when actually they can speak Indonesian fluently. Bad case. I appreciate more to those who give at least some effort to learn Indonesian language even they cannot use it perfectly and not trying to show off their “Anglo-Saxon superiority”.
bs Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Yes, damn that “Anglo-Saxon superiority”
venna Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Hahah, yes. At the same level when the country leaders use “silahken” and their people have to use “silahkan”.
Ross Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
Bingung, Venna. Why did Abbott sound prehistoric? Women do more ironing than men, surely? Maybe you think we guys should do more, but facts are facts. And why should he be ill-used for using the word ‘housewives?” It’s an honourable position of great responsibility.
venna Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
No. I refer the attack to his word of “women do more ironing”, not the word “housewive”. I call this as ‘prehistoric’ because it doesn’t happen much to my generation, or my group, or at least me. In fact I almost never ironing. Technology helps a lot. Even before I move here, I rarely ironing, only when I really need it (and I only have mini travel iron in my room!) and not even thinking that it is a part of my job as a woman. I know that in fact women doing this more than men, but still I feel like ‘ugh’ when he says that.
Ross Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Venna, I’m curious. So you have a spouse who’s good at ironing?
venna Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
It’s common here to see single men doing lots of household chores like ironing and washing, even cooking. Most of my friends (single guys) know how to cook and do stuffs. Not perfect, but okay. And when I marry my husband, he take it over (this specific task) from me because I make trouble alot, like forget to take out clothes from the dryer, which means he has to dewrinkle it. He uses dryer machine than iron, even we have real iron.

I do cooking and taking care of kid, and those that I consider as my job as a wife. And it’s not bad actually. Once or two times vacuuming floor (sometimes me, sometimes my hubby that doing it. depends on who has time to do it), cooking rice with rice-cooker, make simple meals, and use the rest of the time for doing something else. We never discuss who should do this who should do that…. we just do it. Stuffs that I consider as not a housewife-job are like fixing car, fixing electricity…. but I do help painting wall and fixing floor.

The hardest job as a wife, for me, is taking care of kid. That’s hard, physically and emotionally, especially at the first year. And my husband helps to ease that by occasionally bring my daughter away with him for a while so I can have a break. For him it is okay, because he can have “guys night out” moment, hanging out with his single friends just like old times, and my little girl apparently become their favorite guest.
venna Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 12:11 am
Did I miss something about being a housewife?
Odinius Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 12:27 am
Venna said:

I met some of them too, and to tell you the truth, I really dislike them. Some are more disgusting, they keep using English to Indonesian people when actually they can speak Indonesian fluently. Bad case. I appreciate more to those who give at least some effort to learn Indonesian language even they cannot use it perfectly and not trying to show off their “Anglo-Saxon superiority”.

Yeah, in almost every place in the world, people appreciate visitors trying to hack their way through some simple phrases rather than launching into English (or French or another int’l language). They tend to really appreciate it when foreigners take the time to gain conversational proficiency.

In the balkans, being able to hold a simple conversation in the local language about the weather, or competently ask for directions, routinely unlocks doors for you, and can result in invitations to people’s homes. You simply would never get that if you demanded answers in English.
Ross Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 12:42 am
Venna, okay, I can iron too, but don’t these days, as there is somebody better at it than me!
BrotherMouzone Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Canada was created by Brits and French, and America mostly by Brits, like Australia.

Are you sure? I thought they were created by was God/Allah/The Flying Spaghetti Monster…

Countries have a right to control who they choose to let in.

I agree… but those Americans and Canadians making such decisions should not forget the fact that their great nations were built on the blood, sweat, and tears of their own immigrant ancestors.

Anti-immigration policies are a recipe for stagnation. A controlled, fair, equitable immigration policy that encourages immigrants to work and gives them an equal shot at success is wiser.

they slap decent honest would-be migrants in the face and clasp a shoal of vipers to their bosoms.

I hardly think that leaving a poor country in hope of finding wealth in a richer country makes you a “viper”, does it? I’m pretty sure that if I was born into poverty in Mexico and was unable to get a work visa for the US, I would try to find an illegal way across the border to work also.

These people aren’t evil, they’re desperate.
venna Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
@Odinius:
You simply would never get that if you demanded answers in English.
_________________
Exactly.
By the way, when you said about “Latino separateness”, I want to share you my experience while staying for a while at the border area. I had to learn standard Spanish language in order to “integrate” better with people there. Because, most of them still speak Spanish even they learn English language. Young generations speak English more. For the old generations, probably not much they can do since learning English is not easy for them. They just understand basic responses, enough to use when dealing with their jobs/clients.

@Brothermouzone:
’m pretty sure that if I was born into poverty in Mexico and was unable to get a work visa for the US, I would try to find an illegal way across the border to work also.
___________

Yep. 3 dollars per hour in the USA (lower than normal rate) is still way much better than 5 dollars a day in Mexico.
katadia Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony in the title of this thread and the animosity implied in the subsequent reference to women’s activist(s) as ghastly, weirdos and ultimately, as feminazis?

Ross said:
“Some may say that such a role is not fulfilling, but is this a revelation stumbled on by women in the 1960s or is it the result of indoctrination by ghastly Germaine Greer types?”

First, interesting hypotheses on offer there Pak Ross. At the same time, you seem to ignore that married women’s increasing participation in paid employment (and the accompanying fall in the proportion of stay-at-home mothers) since 1950s in the case of Indonesia did not occur in isolation.

Over the past decades, we’ve seen women’s progress in educational attainment in Indonesia coinciding with other social and macroeconomic changes (fall in fertility rates, urbanisation of the workforce, and a structural transformation of the economy that facilitated the growth of white collar employment etc). So, to answer you question, no, I don’t think it was neither a Eureka moment nor reading the female eunuch alone that is responsible for the role redefinition of and for married women.

Second, clearly, when we have reached gender parity in education, as in the case of tertiary graduates in Indonesia, there would be different expectations, gender relations and role wise, than the situation in the 1950s? In relation to the question you posed, are we not happier now than our grandmas? Well, what use is there to compare our situations with stay-at-home mums in the 1950s when so many other variables have changed since then? I don’t need to read Greer or Steinem to say D’OH! It’s as useless as looking at absolute poverty, comparing how well off we are compare to our grandparents, when what matter to the people right now is relative poverty: how we can’t afford a litre of rice when next door is having a feast of goat!

Third, it is not clear to me what is your position on women’s economic role, Pak Ross. I vaguely remembered you were having a go at housewives hanging out in the mall a couple of moths ago! Now, it seems you are suggesting that women should not participate in formal employment and go back to the hey days of quilting, baking, and starching men’s shirts. I respect women’s choices and interests, whatever they may be. Sadly, even in the ‘liberated’ economies of the West, government policies that profoundly affect the choices that women make, could sometimes be biased in favour of stay-at-home mums (e.g. the tax transfer system for example)

And lastly, the majority of tertiary educated married women in urban Indonesia (who happens to be in dual-earner households), would sure be much happier should their husbands or random folks in the internet stop claiming that women have the natural comparative advantage to do the ironing!

Salam hormat.
venna Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony in the title of this thread and the animosity implied in the subsequent reference to women’s activist(s) as ghastly, weirdos and ultimately, as feminazis?
_____________
forget the title, my friend It’s already moving far far away from the Bigots topic.
and isn’t it clear that women’s liberation, women’s activisms outside can be a real threat for some people that love status quo, as well as it can turn out to be a tyranny for their own population at some point? “Weirdos” and “feminazis” are liberating words for some, but maybe annoying for the others
Odinius Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Venna said:

Exactly.
By the way, when you said about “Latino separateness”, I want to share you my experience while staying for a while at the border area. I had to learn standard Spanish language in order to “integrate” better with people there. Because, most of them still speak Spanish even they learn English language. Young generations speak English more. For the old generations, probably not much they can do since learning English is not easy for them. They just understand basic responses, enough to use when dealing with their jobs/clients.

Yeah I don’t think anyone born in the US, or who moved here at a young age, can’t speak English. Older generations, sure, but that’s also true of Korean, Vietnamese, Cuban and other immigrant groups too. It’s part of the process.

Indonesian immigrants generally can speak English when they get here, but that’s because the majority come as students or workers in a field where they have to achieve proficiency as a job prerequisite (e.g. cruise line industry, oil and gas, etc.).
Ross Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Venna, read some of the feminist authors and you’ll see why they deserve pejorative labels. I’m not talking about people who just want a fair deal, but the men-haters!
There are more than a few out there.
venna Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 1:44 am
I know, Ross. Didn’t I say that at some point they become a tyranny for their own population? Just like Reformasi moment in Indonesia that turned out to be chaos and instability rather than harmony. However, I still respect their option though, to be men-haters. As well as I respect a choice made by a woman when she prefer to go DNA shopping at sperm bank rather than having normal marriage because she thought that having a man is more like pain-in-the-ass.

What I disagree is, that in some cases, people just easily put those labels too for feminists that try to push their agenda through lawmakers to create better room for women, and they camouflage their own interest by saying that the best place for a woman is at their house and respecting housewife’s position and those who disagree with that are crazy-witches (when at the same time they don’t give support for homemakers and not considering that for some women, staying in the house is not their best option).
Ross Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 3:36 am
Sorry, Brother, I was so taken with Venna’s points that I missed your latest post.
Yes, if I had a pittance to live on, then I might be tempted to turn to criminal activity, but that is no excuse.
That’s like those social workers in the West who say that disadvantaged childhood should be taken into account when young thugs are brought to court.
Lots of people who grow up in poverty don’t break the law or sneak into somebody else’s territory, jumping the queue on honest immigrants. It’s a personal choice, and if you commit the crime, you should do the time.
Or in migration terms, if you get caught illegally in somebody else’s country, you should be booted back out.

Oya, and God did make all the rocks and soil and lakes, but the Brits and French made Canada! Just as the Brits made America and the Spaniards made Chile etc.
Goodnight, all!
ET Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 8:53 am
@ venna

What I disagree is, that in some cases, people just easily put those labels too for feminists that try to push their agenda through lawmakers to create better room for women, and they camouflage their own interest by saying that the best place for a woman is at their house

Like with so many other movements liberation for women started as an endeavor for emancipation and equal rights. However, after these goals were mostly achieved feminism began to perpetuate itself in the form of nicely paid scholarships in ‘woman studies’ at universities and became a home for penis-hating dykes and all sorts of frustrated and disgruntled leftovers. Luckily more and more women nowadays see right through this masquerade and regain their common sense by not letting dictate to them what those hags deem as PC behavior.
venna Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 10:01 am
a home for penis-hating dykes and all sorts of frustrated and disgruntled leftovers.
___________
Certainly I’m not fit into that home since I’m totally the opposite
But as the consequence of being a pro free-choice, I have to give fair credit to everyone even they take the most ridiculous option, as long as their option is not considered as crime-related.

Will be back tomorrow. Now it’s 11 pm here. Time to sleep.
deta Says:
March 17th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
@ Venna

By the way, the case on rural life here is a little bit different than rural life in Indonesia. The percentage of domestic violence in rural area is pretty high compared to urban area because the social support doesn’t work well.

No. Domestic violence in Indonesian rural area is also high. Due to the economic pressure and lack of education, heaps of these rural women have to go overseas to be TKW in order to improve their life, which can be considered as another form of economic abuse (being hidden under the title of pahlawan devisa)

As well as I respect a choice made by a woman when she prefer to go DNA shopping at sperm bank rather than having normal marriage because she thought that having a man is more like pain-in-the-ass

Can’t help laughing reading this, Venna. I do have some friends who fit this criteria. But because it is based on their own experience (being hurt and wounded by men before) we can’t blame them, can we? I respect their choice, and they do contribute a lot to the society since they have a lot of time to do more productive things than ironing
Don’t get it wrong, I am good at ironing
venna Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 8:32 am
@Deta:

Don’t get it wrong, I am good at ironing
___________

guess I miss a lot on this type of job. Sometimes i used real iron actually… for making toast a.k.a roti bakar setrika!

By the way, yeah you’re right. The TKW things…. I totally forgot about that. Rural society right now is not as strong as before and in some cases it doesn’t give much social support. It changes a lot, and got pressure from economic, industrialization… etc etc…
_________

I respect their choice, and they do contribute a lot to the society since they have a lot of time to do more productive things than ironing
___________

Indeed. For me, campaigning an idea that the best place for women is in their house seems a little bit naive, if not ridiculous. And assuming their happiness merely related with doing domestic works or traditional roles is not quite right.

Surely lots of women feel trapped because they have to go out and fighting, struggling, together with their male colleagues; when what they really wanted is actually back to home and taking care of their family. But for some other women, they have more to give to the society rather than just staying at home. Those who have big potential to be in politics, in science, in technology…… It’s just not fair to assume that they are better to stay at home, except if it’s their own choice. And when it comes to their own decision, the state & society have to give balanced appreciation and fair treatment to them.

Right now, the problem is, the status as ‘housewife’ is not considered as a respectful status and being abused; both by the society and also by the women movement. Just ask randomly to young ladies in jakarta. They will be proudly saying ‘I’m an executive secretary… I’m a banker… I’m a liaison officer…’. But when they are housewives they seem not confident to say it loud. For me, it is just so wrong. If they are fully aware when choosing this position, they should be proud too. If not, then just go back to their previous life, seek challenges outside, make differences and be happy with that.

And for politicians/leaders who campaign about ‘home sweet home’ stuffs, well, I won’t give a damn before they show their true commitment. Especially politicians who campaign that the best place for women is at their home, and they starting to prevent them to participate in politics and in social life…. and then starting to marry more women, starting to make rules about what should and shouldn’t do by women…. ah, hell to them. I prefer letting my fellow ‘feminazis’ having fun by grilling and frying them.
Cukurungan Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 11:09 am
Oya, and God did make all the rocks and soil and lakes, but the Brits and French made Canada! Just as the Brits made America and the Spaniards made Chile etc.

Pak Ross,
Can you tell us how come Brits managed to make Canada, America and Australia while all of the land previously was homeland for our Indian and Aboriginal brothers?
What Did Brits have been done towards those primitive people? Why those people giving their land to Brits?

regards,
deta Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
@ Venna

Sometimes i used real iron actually… for making toast a.k.a roti bakar setrika!

I did the same thing and ended up getting a trouble cause the butter melted all over the table cover.

So, a little bit expanding the conversation. Do you think this accusation of feminazis or penis-hating dykes is possibly a manifestation of the threatened feeling of men because women are actually just as good or even better at work due to the competitive advantage belong to women in doing meticulous jobs and building human relations?
Ross Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Deta!
While I personally would not employ an epithet such as the p-h dykes, I do think feminazis is fair. As i’ve said before, read some of their works. But I certainly don’t feel threatened by successful women, having been a big fan and active supporter of Maggie Thatcher in the UK.
What is striking is how the feminazis go after successful women who don’t share their feminazi outlook. British feminists hated Maggie, and in Florida, when their state legal chief (a lady) didn’t go along with a lefty demand, some feminist freako on the Washinton Post attacked the Floridian lady for her ‘make-up’ choices…. wierd psychotic feminists. Another time, a conservative lady was asked to serve on a panel and some left-lib vixen complained that ‘she isn’t a woman,’ because she wasn’t a pinko!

A lot of feminists are wing-nuts!

Pardon any typos today, this computer has a microscopic screen
venna Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
@Deta:
Do you think this accusation of feminazis or penis-hating dykes is possibly a manifestation of the threatened feeling of men
___________

Tee-hee….. actually I got this accusation once from some of my male colleagues just because I refused to sweep the floor! They said I was a ‘male’ because I didn’t accept THAT as my duty. What in the hell they were thinking?! And when I was talking about equal opportunity for girls to have education, to participate in politics, to participate in economic activity…. all started lecturing about ‘wanita solehah and stay at home’ crap. What do you think if you meet this kind of group? They feel threatened by me or they’re just dumb? Surely they would never try to date me, not because I was not feminine enough for them, but because they couldn’t handle the heat. I guess they’re not confident enough and tried to show their superiority by trying to push back women behind their back, making them invisible.

But, but……. at some point we have to admit that there are feminists/female politicians who are unfair to their female colleagues. Let me check again about Sarah Palin and Scott Brown case…. I remembered I read something about it somewhere, where women politicians were very aggressive toward Palin but then when they saw Scott Brown they just gasped,”oooh… he is so sexy! I’ll vote him!”.
venna Says:
March 18th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
@Deta:
Jeez, I remember the article was in Indonesia language, but it takes looooongggg time to download the site. I give up.