KTP Religion

May 8th, 2006, in IM Posts, by

The question of the listing of religious affiliation national identity cards (KTP).

The Minister of Religion says that the national identity cards of citizens must still carry sign of their religious affiliation.

The minister, Maftuh Basyuni, views the stamping of identity cards, Kartu Tanda Penduduk (KTP), with the name of one of the five, or perhaps now six, official religions of the country as vital to ensuring good harmony between religious groups as well as being of use in more practical matters such as marriage and burial. He said: [1]

It's very important to maintain it. Identity has to be as complete as possible. Also to maintain harmony.
(Justru sangat penting untu dipertahankan. Identitas itu perlu selengkap mungkin. Juga untuk mempertahankan kerukunan.)

He added that if someone died, and nothing was known about him, people would not know how to bury him if his religion were not clearly stated on his ID. In a more sinister tone he said that it could be made sure that a person was observing his "correct" religion and had not deviated from the path made for him by his parents.

The government is presently reviewing the matter of ID cards and religion. Voices have been raised to the effect that the elimination of the religion category on the KTP would lessen the personal danger felt by individuals in sectarian conflict areas.

Its elimination is because if we live in an area experiencing sectarian conflict or if there is "sweeping" carried out against members of a religion, then people don't need to worry.
(Penghapusan itu dikarenakan jika kita di satu daerah yang mengalami konflik agama atau suatu hari nanti terjadi "sweeping" agama, maka masyarakat tidak perlu khawatir dengan hal ini.)

said Progo Nurdjaman, secretary general of the Department of Internal Affairs.

It is one of the themes of this site that if Indonesia is to progress it must downplay differences between religious groups and push outward displays of religion well into the background. The removal of religious identification on ID cards would be one important step in the right direction.

__________________

2nd October 2006.

The soon-to-be-enacted demography bill still requires religious adherence to be displayed on citizens' identity cards.

The bill, currently being debated by the House of Representatives' Commission II on political and domestic affairs, does succeed in cleaning up a lot of confusing and archaic provisions. For example it removes any indication of a person's religious and ethnic group on birth or marriage certificates, hitherto indicated by the use of certain code numbers.

However on KTP, or the national identity cards, religious affiliation is still meant to be shown, according to the draft law. Previously there had been some hope that this requirement would be removed. One reason given for the need to remove it was that it would hinder efforts at "sweeping" of, or the committing of violence against, people based on their religion in conflict areas such as Sulawesi and Ambon, like poor Mr Jelin in Poso yesterday.

However, the bill still obliges every citizen and every family to include their religion on their identity cards, as seen in in Article 68, and only official religions, - Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism and Buddhism, and probably Confucianism (although the Jakarta Post says not [2]) - are acceptable.

________________

18th November 2006.

Despite past hopes that the religion category on national identity cards, (Kartu Tanda Penduduk (KTP)), would be discarded parliamentarians are reported by the Jakarta Post to have decided, with little debate, that religion will remain listed on national identity cards. All political parties represented in the special commission that discussed the issue are said to have agreed.

Sayuti Asyathri of the National Mandate Party (PAN), who chaired the committee on the civil registry/demography bill, said, perhaps sheepishly, that the decision may not be quranically kosher.

We are all aware that compulsion in religion is a bad way to promote God, but we have come to terms with political reality.

Citizens who belong to one of the six recognised faiths, Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, will still be required to have it listed on their KTP but those who belong to other, non-official religions, like animism, can now choose to have the religion section left blank. The government will however list the person's religion for its own records (and it will be interesting to see, eventually, by how much the official figures for Muslims in Indonesia declines because of this, and Christians).

KTP
A Catholic, evidently.

While some complain that listing religion is discriminative towards those of minority, non-recognised, faiths the director general for civil registration at the Home Affairs Ministry, Rasyid Saleh, said it was none of his business:

There is not much that we can do about religions. We only record them for our population database. To recognize or not to recognize religions is not within our jurisdiction.

Engkus Ruswana, a Sundanese leader who follows an indigenous Sundanese belief, said the current democratic government was no better than the previous authoritarian regime.

The obligation to state one of the six official religions or leave it blank for people like us is a telling indication that we are still considered second-class citizens.

The former chairman of the Indonesian Communion of Churches, Reverend Nathan Setiabudi, said the bill was unconstitutional.

Article 28 of the Constitution clearly states that the government must recognize all religions and faiths.

Prevent Genocide International says [3] that the listing of such details as a person's religion on ID cards can facilitate efforts at ethnic and religious cleansing. There have been occasions in the recent past, such as in Makassar [4], where young Muslim militants have accosted people on the street and demanded to see their KTP, to see if they were non-Muslim.

__________________

28th November 2006.

The bill in question, RUU Admintrasi Kependudukan (Adminduk), has drawn criticism from Nursyahbani Katjasungkana, a member of Komisi III in the parliament, from the Partai Kebangkitan Bangsa (PKB). She says the bill is discriminative and will likely end up running afoul of the High Court, if it is challenged on constitutional grounds.

Nursyahbani Katjasungkana says that poor people who live in slum areas, or are homeless, are not recognised and will not be counted because the onus is on them to get themselves registered. This will likely contribute to their further marginalisation. She is quoted by the Jakarta Post:

The bill could cause discrimination against minority groups and poor families, especially the homeless, as many people embracing traditional beliefs will not be registered because they can not list their faiths on identity cards, while those having no identity cards will be ignored.

Meanwhile, Suma Mihardja, of a group called LBH Rakyat, complains that those belonging to non-recognised religions such as animism will not be able to have vital documents issued to them, such as marriage, birth, death, and residency certificates. He claims that under the administration of former president Megawati a "Rencana Aksi Nasional (RAN) HAM) 2004-2009", a national human rights action plan, was formulated which specified that civil servants must provide recognition for animist people.

Jon Edi, an adherent of a West Javanese indigenous religion, gave an example of some discrimination experienced by his co-religionists. He said fourteen animists in Wanareja, Subang, were called to appear before the main Muslim clerical body, the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), and a local government body, the Musyawarah Pimpinan Daerah (Muspida), at which time they were ordered to provide a written statement proclaiming their willingness to cease practising their religion.

Engkus Ruswana, another follower of a West Javanese religion, says the newly revised law violates Indonesia's international civil and political rights obligations. [5]

___________________

29th November 2006.

Jakarta Post says a coalition of groups grouped under the organisation of the National Commission on Human Rights (Komnas HAM), and including the Indonesian Conference of Bishops and non-governmental organizations such as Ahlul Bait Indonesia, the People's Legal Aid Institute, the Coordinating Board of Traditional Beliefs and the Indonesian Legal Aid and Human Rights Association (PBHI), are calling for the Adminduk bill to be scrapped or totally revised again.

Komnas HAM member Chandra Setiawan said that if passed into law, the bill would mean followers of traditional beliefs would be discriminated against by the state.

The bill's products will be identity cards and birth certificates which are based on the six official religions. Like before, the government will not list the faiths of traditional believers on their identity cards.

He appears to have claimed that children born to couples who practise a non-recognised religion will be registered but the identity and religion of their parents will not be listed on their birth certificates.

Father Benny Sutrisno, from the Indonesian Conference of Bishops, urged the government to drop the bill because it contained flaws that could cause conflict among religious groups.

The government is obliged to register all citizens no matter what their religion or belief is. With the bill, the nation has been trapped by the politics of identity and the House lacks wisdom in responding to the people's aspirations.

Ahlul Bait Indonesia leader Adi Gunardi said the government and the House should accept traditional beliefs just as they did the six official religions -- Islam, Protestant Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and Confucianism. The rejection of traditional beliefs was a serious violation of the Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion, he said.

Salvation is found not only in the six religions but also in traditional beliefs. The rejection of registering traditional belief followers is really discrimination and the government should not interfere deeper in religious affairs.

He said he had suspicions that Islamic influences were dominant in deliberating the bill.

__________________

5th December 2006.

The Jakarta Post says that the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) have decided to oppose the bill. PDI-P House secretary, Jacobus Mayongpadang, told a news conference that his party would not vote for the bill. The bill is due to be voted on on December 7th.

Mayongpandang said the PDI-P did not want the civil registration bill to deal with religious matters.

Identity cards should mention only numbers and the names of citizens and of their parents and not their religions because the latter is their personal right that has no substantial relation to civil registration.

If the government insists on registering citizens' religions, it should also register traditional beliefs and their marriages, and their children with their beliefs should be also listed in the civil registration book.

The Post claims that "unnamed sources" have said that Islamic parties are opposed to the idea of giving any sort of recognition to traditional religions.

__________________

9th December 2006.

The bill was passed into law. It still requires citizens to state one of the six religions recognized by the government on their identity cards.

The debate over whether minority, unrecognised religions should be included was spirited, with three parties, the secular Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P), the Christian Prosperous Peace Party (PDS) and the Muslim United Development Party (PPP), rejecting the final draft. One PDI-P member, Permadi, who practises a Javanese religion, said:

I am a living proof of the discrimination against believers in minority faiths. The civil registrations office declined to record the marriage of my daughter simply because her father adhered to an indigenous belief.

However in the end the three dissenting parties endorsed the bill with some reservations. Article 105 was reworded to allow for the recording of marriages of people from minority faiths. This would require the government to record people's religions for census data, however, it is not clear whether this would mean believers of minority religions would be allowed to have their correct religion displayed on their identity cards.

________________

1st March 2007.

One Maya Safira Muchtar of the National Integration Movement (NIM) said at a press conference at the Jakarta Media Center today that the religion category must be removed to prevent discrimination, like at job interviews.

He also said that in Poso, Central Sulawesi many people have been killed in recent years because their religion was identified from their KTP. In Lebanon, he said, religion was not listed on I.D. cards, and another speaker, Anand Khrisna, said almost no middle eastern countries had the practice. [6]

____________

11th March 2007.

Thoha Abdurrahman, the head of the Yogyakarta branch of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), urges against omitting the religion category. People could easily change their religion, back and forth, and this could create conflict in some areas, he said. Sectarian violence as did occur was provoked by foreigners who sought to destroy Indonesia and so omitting the religion category on I.D. cards would have no effect. If people followed their religion properly there would be no conflict, he added, minorities were protected under Islamic law. [7]

_____________

March 27th 2007.

A video by the National Integration Movement, featuring Anand Krishna (the founder of NIM), Maya Safira Muchtar (Chief of NIM), Mona Darwich (a Lebanese person) and Yudanegara (a victim).


31 Comments on “KTP Religion”

Pages: [1] 2 »

  1. avatar Retarders says:
    November 18th, 2006 at 4:56 am

    Indonesia needs to put “religion” in KTP because when you die, God will look at your KTP and decide, whether to put you in censored (jilbab) heaven or non-censored one.

  2. avatar Fanglong says:
    November 18th, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    I think it can help or do the contrary.
    You know the case of blood transfusion : some have a religion which prohibits it (Mormons, etc.) : so, you have a bad accident, they look your KTP & see you’re a Mormon ! Shit : these guys don’t accept trasfusion : we’ve got to call the family, ask for permission, etc. This is one possibility, but, as you can see, it complicates the matter… I think opinions and the like are a real pain where you know. Everyone should calm down and accept the idea that, having fallen on Earth, we’re all brother & sisters, beyond the label (trademark?) of our respective religions…
    And this one, of course :

    Article 28 of the Constitution clearly states that the government must recognize all religions and faiths.

  3. avatar Parvita says:
    November 28th, 2006 at 8:32 pm

    I don’t think my KTP has a religion part anymore, which is quite new. I found that out when I renewed my KTP.

    I think it is just for statistics, it has no intention for discrimination. Maybe I’m naive, but is there any case of discrimination because you are one of the minority religion follower?

  4. avatar pj_bali says:
    March 12th, 2007 at 7:08 pm

    You could apply to build a church in Java – see how far you get. Preventing people from having a place of worship is pretty discriminatory. Could say say the same for mosques in East Indo but I haven’t come accross any cases (apart from Ahmadiyah) of mobs closing mosques. Maybe someone could share some examples of that?

    If they needed statistics they could do a census.

    Whether or not it has no intention of discrimination thats what it will be used for. As the minister said it could be used to check up on people to see if they are following the tenets of their religions. I wonder if a special police will be recruited for this extremely important task. There could also be an opportunity for a religious re-education camp somewhere so that these religious miscreants could have an opportunity to find the correct path – somewhere far from civilisation so as to be free of distractions such as telephones or tv. After a few decades of rehabilition they would be ready to resume their roles in society, this time in a proper manner according to their agama.

    Why not just leave the religion off the KTP. Who needs to know?

  5. avatar Robert says:
    March 12th, 2007 at 10:49 pm

    11th March 2007.

    Thoha Abdurrahman, the head of the Yogyakarta branch of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), urges against omitting the religion category. People could easily change their religion, back and forth, and this could create conflict in some areas, he said.

    Oh yeah, sure. Once the religion category has been omitted from the KTP, people will start changing their religion back and forth immediately. For example does he think that Muslims will become Protestants, Protestants will become Buddhists, Buddhists will become Catholics and Catholics become Muslims?
    Where did he get this insane idea from? That would mean people would only stick to their religion because it is mentioned on their KTP. Seems very unlikely.

    Omitting religion would prevent religious conflicts from occurring. Emphasizing religious difference only raises barriers between people. Why should a person know what the religion of another person is in the first way?
    Group classifications can be very dangerous as history shows us: South-Africa, Nazi-Germany, Rwanda.

    Sectarian violence as did occur was provoked by foreigners who sought to destroy Indonesia and so omitting the religion category on I.D. cards would have no effect.

    Which foreigners? And why haven’t these foreigners been arrested by the Indonesian Police? Which persons is Abdurrahman referring to? Again is an internal problem blamed to foreigners.

    If people followed their religion properly there would be no conflict, he added, minorities were protected under Islamic law

    Apparently people don’t follow their religion properly. What Islamic law does he refer to? Minorities shouldn’t be subjected to Islamic law at all. There is no need for that.
    Abdurrahman’s ideas are far away from reality and are purely based on wishful thinking.

  6. avatar Andrew says:
    March 12th, 2007 at 11:39 pm

    What a shallow and meaningless conclusion from the head of a major organization.
    If he doesn’t have a rational and logical opinion, he should just shut up – that would’ve saved his face.

  7. avatar Dimp says:
    March 13th, 2007 at 5:25 am

    Hi Andrew,

    If he doesn’t have a rational and logical opinion.

    I thought this is one of the major requirement to become Indonesian officials. You can clearly see that anyone who have or develop rational and logical opinions will never last long in the office.

  8. avatar Ihaknt says:
    March 13th, 2007 at 6:25 am

    Great! Hey Cuk why don’t you apply? Or you probably already are.

  9. avatar Tomaculum says:
    March 15th, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    minorities were protected under Islamic law

    Wow, how kind and merciful!
    As a minority I would prefer to be protected under a functioning earthen governmental law. But maybe I’m just a minority under the minorities?

  10. avatar Robert says:
    March 27th, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    The video shows there are many solid reasons advocating omission of religion on the KTP. Unfortunately, it seems that there hasn’t flown too much blood to convince the Indonesian Government. Even foreign examples are not enough, like the Lebanese lady tells.

    We all know what happened in Europe in the 30′s 40′s of the last century, where the Jews got the character J stamped on their KTP’s, it was the perfect tool in the extermination of the Jews, result 6.000.000 people killed. We saw what happended in Rwanda where the KTP’s stated whether you were a Tutsi or Hutu, also here the result was literally devastating, 800.000 people killed.

    It is very simple, the more personal characteristics are being stated on the KTP, the easier it gets to discriminate and the bigger the chance of abuse. I don’t know about the real reason of mentioning religion on the KTP. The arguments that it is for harmony, or to prevent people from deviating from “the path”, are just plain bullsh*t, because Indonesia shows the opposite. Maybe it is for future purposes that once Indonesia has become an Islamic state, the Government can deal swift and quickly with other religions.

    I don’t know what is necessary to change the minds of the Indonesian Parliamentarians, history and bloodshed don’t seem to work.

  11. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    March 28th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    Robert said:

    I don’t know what is necessary to change the minds of the Indonesian Parliamentarians, history and bloodshed don’t seem to work.

    Promises of easy money seem to work! ;-)

    Peace

  12. avatar Sassy says:
    April 10th, 2007 at 9:07 am

    Religion is between Human and God, not Government. It should be only God knows my religion. The people just know my attitude, how can I related with them, how can I spread peace around the world. That’s the religion that should people see, not just written in KTP.

  13. avatar Khaled Elkasi says:
    May 15th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Religion in KTP is necessary for those who works in the Ministery of Relegion (Departmen Kementrian Agama). It gives them works.

    Departemen Agama Kementrian Agama is the souce of all corruptions !
    The people who work the this depertment are all immoral.

  14. avatar Rob says:
    May 16th, 2008 at 3:31 am

    Perhaps a more general question needs to be asked and that is:

    Can the State regulate a citizen’s beliefs?

    For many perhaps stating a religion is a mere formality to the KTP process and it is not worth the hassle of trying to convince some pencil pusher that you do not believe in one of the approved religions…

  15. avatar Free Spirit says:
    December 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am

    We don’t need a religion statement on KTP because it can cause a DISCRIMINATION!

    And for Retarders you wrote:

    “Indonesia needs to put “religion” in KTP because when you die, God will look at your KTP and decide, whether to put you in censored (jilbab) heaven or non-censored one”.

    You makes me laugh. Get real man! Is God really gonna check our KTP? You just joking right?

  16. avatar ananda says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Again and again it has been proven that the source of problems in Indonesia is Islam. It is Islam that is always crazy about religion, about belief, and the like. The rest have no problem about such a matter.

  17. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Again and again it has been proven that the source of problems in Indonesia is Islam.

    Islam have been here more than 700 years, it is very easy my dear if you have problem with Islam go to another country which dare to ban Islam as religion.

  18. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    Tn. Cukurungan, Yth:

    How could you say something like that?

    What about those whose ancestors have lived here for more than a thousand years, but disagree with islam? What would you do about them?

  19. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    What about those whose ancestors have lived here for more than a thousand years, but disagree with islam? What would you do about them?

    Pak TTT Yth,

    We could disagree in many thing but we can still live side by side peacefully if all parties on the disagreement want so but if you consider me as source of your problem. Should I give smile to you while you are ready to wipe out your problem?

  20. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 10:03 pm

    Tn. Cukurungan, Yth:

    Should I give smile to you while you are ready to wipe out your problem?

    Who says anything about wiping out my problem?

    Ok. Let me put it in a more detailed scenario.

    My people lived here since a thousand years ago or more.
    Your faith arrived in nusantara 700 years ago.

    We disagree with your faith. We think it is problematic.
    We do not think we will ever want to wipe out our own brothers (you are).
    But we will never stop trying to convince you by arguments and proselytizing, however useless that might be.

    Whats your response toward that attitude?
    A. My people should go to other country
    B. My people lied about not wanting to wipe out, and should get pre-emptive strike
    C. Some other response (please explain?)

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    We disagree with your faith. We think it is problematic.
    We do not think we will ever want to wipe out our own brothers (you are).
    But we will never stop trying to convince you by arguments and proselytizing, however useless that might be.

    Whats your response toward that attitude?
    A. My people should go to other country
    B. My people lied about not wanting to wipe out, and should get pre-emptive strike
    C. Some other response (please explain?)

    It is very easy my brother, there is rule of game set forth by Government, as long as you play according to the applicable regulation and law who care. But trust me you are doing the useless Job. Islam is the most demanding religion on earth ( too many tidak boleh dan too sedikit yg boleh), aside of the Islam by default like most Javanese and Sundanese, it is only magical thing who could make people to embrace in Islam, but once someone embrace to Islam especially the hard core one even you jig saw his head alive, he will never leave the Islam. If you do not believe check the history of mankind, the only succeed story to de-Islamize territory previously under control of Muslim was in the Spanish by wiped -out all Muslim at once strike. Therefore, if someone says, Islam is problem what we do just keep sharpening our jig saw just in case if someone try to repeat success story of Spanish tactic.

    Please be noticed that I am not talking on behalf on Muslim Indonesia, it is only my personal opinion while I am only a dirty muslim.

  22. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 11:23 pm

    Tn. Cukurungan, Yth:

    If you do not believe check the history of mankind, the only succeed story to de-Islamize territory previously under control of Muslim was in the Spanish by wiped -out all Muslim at once strike.

    No brother, try India. it was almost all muslims back in the era of tippu sultan of mysore. but no longer now. Its simply slowly out of fashion.

    Back to my problem.

    Forget the government. Their sets of laws was dutch era laws, using religion to segregate people. outdated, unfair, and should be changed.

    What does your heart tell you?
    Can I or cant I argue against your faith, peacefully?
    Can we (my people and the people of your faith) or Cant we just use words to persuade each others to convert, however strong and loud that is? without resorting to death theology?
    And not only in internet forum, but openly.

    What does your heart tell you?

  23. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    Pak TTT,

    Re,

    My people lived here since a thousand years ago or more.
    Your faith arrived in nusantara 700 years ago.

    Sheikh Cuk’s people had been in the nusantara some 700 years ago.

    Pak TTT’s people had been here 1,000 years or so years ago.

    My Javanese ancestors, had been here some 1,000,000 years ago.

    I think I have more authority to tell who to go.

  24. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 2nd, 2009 at 7:31 am

    No brother, try India. it was almost all muslims back in the era of tippu sultan of mysore. but no longer now. Its simply slowly out of fashion.

    India is still home of one of most largest muslim on the planet while Bangladesh and Pakistan is still there.

    Can I or cant I argue against your faith, peacefully?
    Can we (my people and the people of your faith) or Cant we just use words to persuade each others to convert, however strong and loud that is? without resorting to death theology?
    And not only in internet forum, but openly.

    What does your heart tell you?

    I do not see any problem but I remind you that before you go to preach to other faith please watch your backyard carefully otherwise something below could happen again:

    I am from Batak Ethnic, most of us are christian almost 90% even my father was a christian, I am muslim since the day I was born coz my late father convert his religion when he was at the university, even at the beginning my father was very surprised when he was in the christian school all they have taught him as a preacher is to destroy islam in faith not by war or battle but in mind war, when he converted to islam he found out none of his ustadz told him to do the same

    for more detail see
    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1628/fitna-geert-wilders/cp-8/#comments

  25. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 2nd, 2009 at 9:42 am

    Tn. Cukurungan, Yth:

    I do not see any problem but I remind you that before you go to preach to other faith please watch your backyard carefully otherwise something below could happen again:

    Ok. If you think it is not a problem, then we’re good. Can you please stand up in indonesian political arena to say that?

    I dont care if your story happens again, you can convert us as much as you want, as long as we can do the same. Im more worried about the lack of options to de-convert, and lack of options to disagree or criticize.

    To quote a close friend of mine: “You can worship a stone if you want, as long as you dont throw it at me”

  26. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 2nd, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Tn. Aluang, Yth:

    My Javanese ancestors, had been here some 1,000,000 years ago.

    I think I have more authority to tell who to go.

    LOLLL…..
    I dont think so

    National Geographic can confirm this, if you are willing to send them your dna samples. I’ll try to find the url later.

  27. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 2nd, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Ok. If you think it is not a problem, then we’re good. Can you please stand up in indonesian political arena to say that?

    Brother, if I said no problem, it does not mean I have to devote my self to strive on this issue but it explain my position that I do not care with faith or believe of other people because as we Muslim have no luxury time to fix other people faith but we are too busy to save our self and our family from threat of the agony hellfire.

    Im more worried about the lack of options to de-convert, and lack of options to disagree or criticize.

    We are more worried about fate of my self and my family because we are not lucky as you who already have a room in heaven booked by YOUR FATHER

  28. avatar diego says:
    April 3rd, 2009 at 3:21 am

    This discussion is getting weirder.

    Sobat Cuk, do you really believe what you said??? I mean, the going to hell thing, etc.

    My gosh, if the majority of the people are more worried about “avoidin hell” (which probably doesn’t exist anyway, or maybe we’re living in the real hell already), then when will we — together as a nation — be able to really dedicate our energy for something useful in our current life???

  29. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
    April 3rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Tn. Diego, Yth:

    Let him be. I just made him throw a statement that he doesnt have any objection on the matter of conversion of people of his faith, which i presume against his faith’s dogma.

    Of course he would think about hell and stuffs.

  30. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 3rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    This discussion is getting weirder.

    Because the belief or the faith is not a good subject for the discussion because there is no logical common ground to discuss the faith.

    If you do not believe ask to Pak TTT who is His God and where his God is living now.

    Sobat Cuk, do you really believe what you said??? I mean, the going to hell thing, etc.

    My gosh, if the majority of the people are more worried about “avoidin hell” (which probably doesn’t exist anyway, or maybe we’re living in the real hell already), then when will we — together as a nation — be able to really dedicate our energy for something useful in our current life???

    We will go together as nation to do useful thing if all of us believe that to fix other people belief is not the useful thing.

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