National Pride
November 22nd, 2006, in News, by PatungSome believe that the national pride of Indonesia was insulted by the George Bush visit.
The high level of security provided by Indonesia for the visit of the US president had harmed the interests of the people of Bogor, where Bush visited, briefly, and had made Indonesia lose its pride in the eyes of the United States, says parliamentarian Fahri Hamzah of the Partai Keadilan Sejahtera (PKS).
Indonesia was a big country, he said, big in both population and amount of natural resources, and the leaders of the nation should use this fact as a bargaining chip, and not bend over backwards for foreign leaders. Founding father of the nation, Mohammed Hatta, had stated that it were better the country be drowned at sea than let other powers abuse it, Hamzah said.
The security measures taken for Bush’s visit were over the top and had measurably caused losses for Bogor people, particularly traders and public transportation drivers, who were unable to work on the big day of Bush’s visit. What’s more the helipad that had been specially constructed for Bush’s helicopter had not even been used. He complained: [1]
We made the helipad for him but he didn’t even use it, we were dictated to and this is a sign of our weakness internationally.
Tags: Foreign Relations
47 Comments on “National Pride”
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Retarders Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:55 amBush didn’t use the helipad …. he’s gonna buy it along with Indonesia.
Damn … everyday ppl suffers cannot do business and what not … but only when Bush came they open their big pie hole …And how the hell his visit “abuse” Indonesia…. they are already poor, they are already stupid… how worse can it get?
Bargaining chip with what ? What can poverty and stupidity bargained with anyway ?
Duh……
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Tomaculum Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:14 amI didn’t realise, that the Indonesian national pride is so weak it can be insulted by such happening.
Poor Indonesia!!
But maybe Fahri Hamzah meant his pride and not the national pride (because his effluvias didn’t receive the attention he hoped to get).
More poor Indonesia, contaminated by such germs.
But he is right: Indonesia shouldn’t bend the knee in front of foreign leaders or foreign culture (!).
Or the Arabic culture (some declared as Islamic culture) isn’t a foreign culture?
Bush isn’t a person I would give my hand, but these reactions are childish and border to paranoia. -
Andrew Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:38 amI agree that we have to be proud and independent as a nation, and that noone should dictate us.
But saying that Bush’s visit insulted our national pride is just lame. It’s a telltale sign of insecurity, an inferiority syndrome.
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Munafikbangetloepade Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:34 ami really don’t have problem with bush visit, except that i simply can not understand why it wasn’t in bali? — less problems and creates less ammo for those fanatic turds.
i will be insulted only when somebody said Anggun is a slut. She’s the national pride, to me…, and no, she definitely is not a slut….
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Rockstar Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:51 amooohh plleeeaassseee..
man..
I’m speechless.. I know some peeps are so stupid that can’t be helped anymore.. but this is beyond imagination.. -
Saintaro Crown Says:
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:53 pmI dont agree with FahrI said but he just spoke what he think.
If you are rich and clever, use it to keep your insulting thought on those poor and stupid Indonesian hold just in your head, why flow it ?. Perhaps to become look like a smart and rich someone need to stamp other stupid and poor ?. I am sure there are Indonesian richer and more inteligent than you. -
November 23rd, 2006 at 2:52 amSaintaro Crown, buddy.. who told you I’m rich? stop making things up will you. You’re just another ignorant individual who is just way too lazy to read and understand the whole post.
Who brought up the poor? wasn’t it you? I didn’t even mention the poor in my last post. Dood.. stop being a lazy ignorant chap will you. Fahri is not poor anyway.And who told you I’m clever? sure I take it as a compliment, at least I’m not at the same level as this Fahri guy is. But thanks for the compliment, but yea I’m not rich.
Why flow it? have you ever heard of a freedom of speech? Fahri expressed his and so did I.
“Perhaps to become look like a smart and rich someone need to stamp other stupid and poor ?”
Now hold your horses there. You’re a short minded person you know that? Did I say that for the sake of coolness or cleverness? Yikes dood, I don’t know what you’re eating today but hell.. you’re wrong and I don’t know what you’re talking about.. seriously.. this is way off topic..I said that Fahri guy is so stupid, Indonesia’s pride has been insulted in daily basis internally.. you name is corruption, discrimination, violence, injustice etc.. dood where have you been?
by the way, are you feeling cranky today saintaro? or just hi?
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Bas Says:
November 23rd, 2006 at 4:28 amI agree with you about Bush Andrew.. but not about Anggun…
Yes Anggun is a real slut. A french friend of mine f*cked her in Bandung while her first “husband” was away (I use “” because I know from another friend who works for the Indonesian embassy in Paris that they were not married, they just lived together. But of course you cannot say that in Indonesia).
What’s more, everybody in Jalan Braga knows that she used to be booked when she was not yet famous and was singing in Bandung clubs. I don’t know what was the prices.
So yes Anggun is a real slut (and she also looks like a slut). A very typical Indonesian slut in my opinion.
Sorry to tell you the truth about your idol.
But her voice is nice.
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Molisan Tono Says:
November 23rd, 2006 at 11:09 amnational pride…. nothing special to say about it. if pride is tha case. PKS should took that fall instead of blaming ruling government. look at those craps protesting on the day and before Bush’s visit. take a good look those who bring along their banner… you can notice it’s promoted by PKS. what a jobless political party indeed.
and their affiliate FPI people… those crooks also need a really good handjob. “kill Bush”? if Soeharto still reign. those creep surely be gone from the face of earth. sh*t… sound too nice… face of the earth. f*ck them, then can go to hell.
those crazy Islam defender they say… gonna start the war with US by threating their President life. kill the president? this is what make our government look so lame… those crazy killer wanna be do not end up in jail for threathening people life and provoc people to a war.
national pride my ass.
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November 24th, 2006 at 8:43 amhey jin jang jo Rockstar. Don’t fierce at me. Why so jumpy man. When you find my comment upon your writing is not correct, why don’t your brain told you perhaps that is directed to others. Who is short minded now?
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November 24th, 2006 at 1:06 pmhey jin jang jo Rockstar
(speechless) ??????
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November 28th, 2006 at 4:11 amlol saintaro crown dood
“When you find my comment upon your writing is not correct…”
so you did point it to me
“why don’t your brain told you perhaps that is directed to others”
hehehe being a flip flop are we here SC? you just said a moment ago that it was for me.. now you blame it on my brain.. hehehe how original “Don’t fierce at me. Why so jumpy man.”
I was just justificating my previous post buddy“Who is short minded now?”
I’m sorry but it’s still you “hey jin jang jo Rockstar.”
is this a new hip? -
Parvita Says:
November 28th, 2006 at 8:25 pmSee, Molisan Tono can always find a way to insult Islam in any kind of topic
Even if the topic is not related to Islam at all. Let me go and find other stories, just curious if he’s there
BTW, who cares about Bush, it’s got nothing to do with Indonesians pride. SBY is in a difficult position to say no, in my opinion.
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Orgindo Says:
November 28th, 2006 at 10:13 pmsigh, this how average Indonesia settle their differences..
anyway are you all Indonesians?
glad to have warm conversation here
Peace! -
Mohammed Khafi Says:
November 28th, 2006 at 11:39 pmHi Parvita,
Nice to see you around again, I missed your common sense! I think you are wrong about Molisan Tono this time, I wouldn’t consider any of the parties he insulted to be truly Islamic!
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November 29th, 2006 at 8:32 amhello nice to see you again Parvita.
i aware my comment may trigger self defense within you. but I don’t insult Islam… I don’t mind how Islam think about peace… i do mind those stupid people so called their self Islam or Moslem. like you may be.if you think PKS is Islam or FPI is Islam… then you your self is justifying Islam is killer religion and those who dwell in the name of Islam are murderer not me. those nuts case that declare war against government and other nations.
is that what you religion teach you Parvita? i spend 15 years of my life sharing a part of my family property for main mosque in my hometown, not once i heard them praying killing people or threathening my family. it sounds so clear lately since FPI or those crazy so called Islamic parties existed.
so Parvita… national pride again? you can sue PKS or FPI… not me.
for me, there’s no reason at all to kill bush although he probably demonic possess.
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November 29th, 2006 at 11:32 amMolisan Tono: PKS is a party. FPI is an organisation. That is my understanding. Killing and terrorism is not any religion’s agenda.
This thread is about Bush coming to Indonesia and the pride of Indonesians. Why all of a sudden it became PKS and FPI? I don’t see the relation. Please explain, maybe I missed something. While Bush visited, I was not in the country and had no access to news.
Orgindo: I am new in following this blogs, but I find some people tends to bend the main topic. Maybe they are BAKIN or intelligents investigating on us, who knows. Like the old Orde Baru time.
My comment is, that Bush coming here does not affect Indonesian pride, plus SBY is in a difficult position because he has to accommodate everybody. That’s all.
Peace, y’all.
p -
November 29th, 2006 at 1:35 pmI think there is a problem in our country. i guess that Indonesia is a little bit oligarchy, that being said, those with big number of follower and courage can rule and said that they represent the country.
I am sure that FPI or PKS or whatever dont represent us all in term of opinion, but because they have masses, they can go down to the street and do whatever they want and resound their opinion. The bad thing is they represent us. At least that is what they imply.
From my opinion, i hardly agree with the way they do things, a lil’ bit anarchy. And well, dont ask us who oppose their opinion to go down the street too. I am no match to their wit and guts. They can kill us and go away if they want, with that God-bearing message.
Funny things is the hard-line/extremist is only minority in our country but they can rule what they want by using masses. Like what happen with the RUU APP. It is a lil’ bit childish. Use violence whenever we don’t agree to something, we need to learn to accept defeat.
In this case, Bush coming is like a brother who steal things from a child, and then the child wont let his brother in, to take revenge for what his brother did. It is hardly a disadvantage for Bush if he is not allowed to come in.
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Jeff Says:
November 16th, 2007 at 9:55 pmWell about the Bush trip to indonesia, fact of the matter is people is that any president in the world that visits a foreign country to them will take all security precautions as needed to ensure the safe of any world leader, examples even if the PM of Japan or of Singapore were to visit Indonesia, the same security precautions would have taken place as they did for when Bush entered Indonesia. Now the thing that brings my piss to a boil is that they say to “ensure safetly” of presidents, does anyone here think that the government would provide these same safetys for the local people or the normal tourist. The anwser to that is NO, I travelled to Indonesia and can say that I Happy married my Indonesian Wife in Bandung, and then honeymooned in Bali and it was Great, I Like Indonesia a lot, I would like to live in indonesia. I would live anywhere in Indonesia except jakarta, too expenive, and too polluted.
Thanks for reading my post. -
Tuan Says:
November 17th, 2007 at 8:40 amJeff,
locals and tourists are not as powerful as my president, who is the world’s most powerful man. Not saying that locals and tourists are inferior, but if by any stretch of the imagination if my president is harmed, I can guarantee that we will not take it lightly. You can almost guarantee that boots of our brave men and women will set foot on Indonesia and that the American flag will hang over Jakarta. I can guarantee that.
Don’t mess with Texa$,
~Tuan Indonesian American Muslim
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November 17th, 2007 at 11:45 pmTaun
First of all I’m an american 2nd Of all its people like you that give america a bad name you think “ohh i’m an american i can do this and do that, i’m free” In Truth we are Not, and America Will Never set foot in Indonesia for war america does not have any reason for war. and news flash ace, in order for war it takes Nato,United Nations, Peace talk, Followed By Congress to support and adapt a bill of cost followed by the presidents decision. as our president being powerful thats a joke as hell, read history and understand how the federal govrenment works, bush can not do much of anything without Congress approval.. To all Indonesians i’m sorry for you to read that comment that some ass clown from texas wrote, we americans do not think that way just ass holes in this country like taun… and again tuan i’m american i’m from Michigan by the way. again people like you who think the united states is all that, i’m free i think i’m a hot shot because i come from the usa. well also note that our government Does NOT Care for peaons like us, let me ask you something taun do you work for the federal government which i know you do not because you have no understanding of how the federal government works, are you in military? no you are not in the military again you have no knowledge of how the federal government works and functions, is a relative of yours work with the federal government? most likely not, so with that said do you really think our government would help you out should you get in trouble No, even president bush stated before being re-elected that “a lot of people in washington does not care about cilivians”. Read History of the us government and how it works. and Taun i would strongly watch what i say do you know that someone could turn your ass in provoking anti settlements or conflicts. so again watch what you say, if you want the truth i’m ashamed to be american, do you realize how many countries we are hated in. we have a president that provokes, we have congress failing to get our troops out of iraq.. again to all Indonesians: i’m sorry that you had to hear all of this, yes most americans are assholes like taun who think they are everything because they comefrom my country the usa. and i would like to say as an american Saya Cinta Kamu Indonesia forver and always -
November 18th, 2007 at 12:52 am“in order for war it takes Nato,United Nations, Peace talk, Followed By Congress to support and adapt a bill of cost followed by the presidents decision.”
Two words: Iraq War
“as our president being powerful thats a joke as hell, read history and understand how the federal govrenment works, bush can not do much of anything without Congress approval..”
You forget that our president can deploy the military (might I add the most powerful military in the world) without approval of anyone, that is why he is called Commander in Chief. I can not believe that recent history escapes you.
“i’m free i think i’m a hot shot because i come from the usa. well also note that our government Does NOT Care for peaons like us, let me ask you something taun do you work for the federal government which i know you do not because you have no understanding of how the federal government works, are you in military? no you are not in the military again you have no knowledge of how the federal government works and functions, is a relative of yours work with the federal government?”
Be careful when you assume..it will make an Ass out of U and Me.
And yes I have worked for the Federal government after college.
“most likely not, so with that said do you really think our government would help you out should you get in trouble No,”
Yes they would. We protect all our citizens from foreign powers, which is why we have embassies.
“Taun i would strongly watch what i say do you know that someone could turn your ass in provoking anti settlements or conflicts. so again watch what you say, if you want the truth i’m ashamed to be american, do you realize how many countries we are hated in.”
Be careful of what YOU say. Most Americans whether they believe what I say or not will not talk to kindly with your pro-Indonesian sentiment. Perhaps you should turn in your US Citizenship and become Indonesian with all that talk. Anyhow, most Indonesians want to be like us
As an American, I love You America Forever and Always
America > Indonesia
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:14 amWell, most Americans are that way. Selfish, arrogant, closeminded. Not much difference with the Al-Qaeda bomber anyway.
For every country, most of their falldown is due to their arrogancy, not wanting to look at outside. I have couple AMerican friends that ask my singaporean friends, “have you ever see a building as tall as this in singapore?”. he referred to a 8 storey building in Ann Arbor, MI. Well, seems they dont travel much.
ANother thing, Americans are very much controlled by the media, admit or not. Just look at the CNN or fox portrayal of another country, they still portray Iran as a country where people still ride camel!
Anyway, if Tuan wants to believe it that way, nobody can forbid.
A lot of people want to be AMerican so they can go there and work harder than American and get money. Or study.
And American got the strongest military power, because every household in US is willing to pay $20k a year for 8 years just to attack Iraq and kill people. In the end, I think most American, like Indonesian, are hypocrites, so dont claim that you are better than us.
BTW, i wonder if Tuan and his friends from texas have high degree of intelligence… I really doubt that, given Texas textbook is not so good.0
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November 18th, 2007 at 4:55 amTuan
oh my god, Hello.. Before war can ever be wage it needs to follow a chain of command, The president is commander in cheif HOWEVER, he cant simply just go to war, and yes i know what i’m talking about i was in the U.S, Marine Corps for 4 years I was in the The 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit applied for Bravo Company MOS (Position) was a 01300 Infantry. Do NOT TELL ME HOW THIS WORKS Little Boy. and for your Information, war works this way Nato needs to be aware of the situlation> UN PeaceKeepers>Resulation Drafts>which equals Foreign support outside of Nato)>Congress adopts a Bill for war and Construction>CIA Communicates with the Pentagon>Pentagon talks with Members of Congress>President>General of Operations (which includes a member of each military branch) When these requirements are made as to what action the President 9Commander in cheif) gives the final consent order. This is a Verifaction ORDER!. This is then when the president agrees to Deploy Military Personal, when Military Personal Have been in a foreign country within 2 months the Commander in cheif needs to make a Descions. he talks with members of congress>Pentagon> to list any ideas, its either Voted or nahed the President has only a FINAL decision. Sorry to Disappoint you on the whole Thing, Know Facts..orgindo
I agree with you on all of that everything you mention were true, its sad to know that people act the way they do, and you know media distorts stuff all the time like the iraq war, it was war that should never had happned. and right i think the entire world has hypocrites some where in all countries, the way i think is that it does not matter where you come from in the world, no country is better then any other country, we are all human and may have different belifs or cultures but i think if people can respect other countries i think the world start being a better place.. and for all my brothers of islam i say Wassalaam and for all the Christins i say May God Bless you all with peaceohh Tuan just another little thing here that i forgot to comment, you said that “embassies” did you know the rest of the world also has embassies as well in the United states and fyi, you say the government will help you eh.. ok try this go to any foreign country run out of money and head to the american embassy and ask for assistance you know what, they will not help you. and you know what and too Prove to you about how the government does not care for you, and how the embassies will not help you, visit this website and read http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2006/07/americans_trapped_in_lebanon.html
next time know facts before you mention
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Teng Says:
November 18th, 2007 at 5:50 amwar works this way Nato needs to be aware of the situlation> UN PeaceKeepers>Resulation Drafts>which equals Foreign support outside of Nato)>Congress adopts a Bill for war and Construction>CIA Communicates with the Pentagon>Pentagon talks with Members of Congress>President>General of Operations (which includes a member of each military branch) When these requirements are made as to what action the President 9Commander in cheif) gives the final consent order. This is a Verifaction ORDER!.
This might be the way it is SUPPOSED to go… but no way this is the way it happened with Iraq. There were no UN peaceKeepers, nor did the NATO go to war with Iraq. The US alone went to war and dragged some other nations in to it.
I won’t say its just the president who pulls the strings, he is a mere puppet of other forces… however bypassing the Congress is the name of the game. Fact remains that the leaders of the US jumped into a war neither the UN nor the NATO approved of
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November 18th, 2007 at 6:08 amTeng
Yes, thats right, but what i was proving is the main process of how war is suppose to be initiated reguarding a comment that a user had stated. actually the other fact is that the us federal government even went on ways to deny the military more weaponary and armer. you know i hear about the war in iraq and its a shame that is carried out this long, truth be told the price tag is in the trillions, millions lives lost there is no way the government would not consider putting a base there.. did you even know that presidents bush’s own father was tell him not to get involved with iraq -
November 18th, 2007 at 6:17 amdid you even know that presidents bush’s own father was tell him not to get involved with iraq
Bush Sr. should have finished Iraq when he had the chance (and he did). However he encouraged Iraqi insurgents to stand up against Saddam… and when they did… he left Iraq. Those Iraqi freedom fighters ended up dead or tortured in Saddam’s prison camps.
Years later Bush Jr. starts a war on Iraq without any real reasons. I might be wrong… but it seems the son tries to finish his fathers job… because it sure as hell had nothing to do with terrorism or Al-Qaeda
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November 18th, 2007 at 6:42 amTeng
Thats Very True there, but howeever bush sr got america involved in 91 do due to allied bombing runs so i think its also safe to stay that pres b. sr and allied forces did take acre of the problem back then, and i totally agree with you on what you said by how Jr. has to finish daddies work, that is very true and a good point this war has nothing to do with al-qaeda and terrorism, it just had to do with he had the guts to send troops over seas.. I like how knowledge you are its great to know that their are people that knows the truth and I thank you. the question that i have for you (because i would like to know what your input is on this question) is if you had a chance to for see president bush’s actions towards iraqi and you were able to make a change, what would you had change? -
November 18th, 2007 at 9:04 amoh my god, Hello.. Before war can ever be wage it needs to follow a chain of command, The president is commander in cheif HOWEVER, he cant simply just go to war, and yes i know what i’m talking about i was in the U.S, Marine Corps for 4 years I was in the The 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit applied for Bravo Company MOS (Position) was a 01300 Infantry. Do NOT TELL ME HOW THIS WORKS Little Boy. and for your Information, war works this way Nato needs to be aware of the situlation> UN PeaceKeepers>Resulation Drafts>which equals Foreign support outside of Nato)>Congress adopts a Bill for war and Construction>CIA Communicates with the Pentagon>Pentagon talks with Members of Congress>President>General of Operations (which includes a member of each military branch) When these requirements are made as to what action the President 9Commander in cheif) gives the final consent order. This is a Verifaction ORDER!. This is then when the president agrees to Deploy Military Personal, when Military Personal Have been in a foreign country within 2 months the Commander in cheif needs to make a Descions. he talks with members of congress>Pentagon> to list any ideas, its either Voted or nahed the President has only a FINAL decision. Sorry to Disappoint you on the whole Thing, Know Facts..
Hello.. do you watch the news at all or perhaps you have forgotten how we got into the current war? Anyhow, Teng nailed it. Yes there is a process but there are ways around it.
ohh Tuan just another little thing here that i forgot to comment, you said that “embassies” did you know the rest of the world also has embassies as well in the United states and fyi, you say the government will help you eh.. ok try this go to any foreign country run out of money and head to the american embassy and ask for assistance you know what, they will not help you. and you know what and too Prove to you about how the government does not care for you, and how the embassies will not help you, visit this website and read
next time know facts before you mention
If you don’t have money..that’s your personal problem. I am talking about situations where specifically if you are jailed or taken hostage by a terror group in a foreign land. In those cases, the government will help you.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
EDIT: I can’t believe I miss this but..
i will be insulted only when somebody said Anggun is a slut. She’s the national pride, to me”¦, and no, she definitely is not a slut”¦.
Its a sad state if national pride is built up because of some superficial pop singer who according to some Indonesians is a “sell out” and has not real made a real difference in the lives of Indonesians. I mean aren’t there Pulitzer Prize winners or Nobel Prize winners who are scientists, doctors, writers, soliders, etc. who actual make a difference in the lives of their own people. Those people should be a pride of the nation, not selfish pop singers who tries hard to be European.
BTW, i wonder if Tuan and his friends from texas have high degree of intelligence”¦ I really doubt that, given Texas textbook is not so good.0
At least we can afford text books and have a higher education standard that is free than what is offered in Indonesia.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 18th, 2007 at 12:02 pmTaun
yea that may be but at least Indonesia doesnt go around shooting people, and at least kids in indonesia respect their parents and do not dress up like little whores as what you see in the USA., and to comment about being jailed with the government help, Thats funny because when you travel to a foreign country you get jailed its still your ass you broke the law plain and simple. does the word Michael Fay ring a bell. incase you for got, he was 18 year old american who went to singapore got jailed and was cained, the us government could not do a damn accept talk to singaporean officials and simple asked them to maintain his rights. i doubt ever much that you actually travel international because if you did you would know that american government cant really do to whole hell of a-lot. and yes you just gave me a perfect example you mention also that the government will help if you caught by terrorist, you really think that to quto you “do you watch the news?” because if you did you would know that when several americans were held hostage by terrorist in iraq, they (the americans) begged for the United States Government to pull out in iraq. did they?.. noo, what happened ohh yea they were decapitated, as even the government mentioned that they do not deal with terrorist.. kinda something on how you brong that up… and about the war in iraq actually president bush Did have a resulation draft and talked with United Nations as they wanted to continue peace talks, you know what here is the link for that its from Cnn Proving That UN Had a Peacetalk, Congress approves iraq war resolution which was in 2002 http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/ Read That, ohh and what was that you said “watch the news” i think i proved you wrong once again..ohh an taun i doubt very much that your an “Indonesian - american muslim” i doubt that have you actually even traveled to Indonesia and seen what its like? . just wondering now if you say your an indonesian american that usually means you immgrated out of Indonesia to america and obtained a citizenship, but if you say your parents had came from their then still doesn’t make you an “Indonesian american” as your american citizen with indonesian blood line only. so in other words you never obtain a citizenship for indonesia.. and FYI if you say “dual” then know this Indonesia does not acknowledge a dual citizen ship. so tell me how are you or in what way do you actually think that your american / indonesian citizen
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November 18th, 2007 at 12:41 pmJeff:
yea that may be but at least Indonesia doesnt go around shooting people,
No but at least the US population does not act like animals and rape defenseless Chinese folks. Again history class seems to escape you once again (Jakarta riots of ‘98)
and at least kids in indonesia respect their parents and do not dress up like little whores as what you see in the USA.
For the most part, it is true but it is degrading due to outside influences, especially amongst the young people in Jakarta where drug use and promiscuity is high. Obviously you have not heard of the sexual paradise of Bali, Blok M (Jakarta) and Dolly (Surabaya). We in the US are not notorious for places like that and whoring our women so openly for tourist money. In America there is not ambiguity about what is right or wrong as there is in Indonesia mainly because they are driven by greed and sloth.
Thats funny because when you travel to a foreign country you get jailed its still your ass you broke the law plain and simple. does the word Michael Fay ring a bell. incase you for got, he was 18 year old american who went to singapore got jailed and was cained, the us government could not do a damn accept talk to singaporean officials and simple asked them to maintain his rights.
Yes I have and as I recall the US government did all they can to help out the dude. An A for effort, nonetheless.
i doubt ever much that you actually travel international because if you did you would know that american government cant really do to whole hell of a-lot. and yes you just gave me a perfect example you mention also that the government will help if you caught by terrorist, you really think that to quto you “do you watch the news?” because if you did you would know that when several americans were held hostage by terrorist in iraq, they (the americans) begged for the United States Government to pull out in iraq. did they?.. noo, what happened ohh yea they were decapitated, as even the government mentioned that they do not deal with terrorist..
Again the US government does make an effort to rescue its citizens. Not all attempts whether diplomatic or by force is successful. Nonetheless there is an effort on the part of government. As I recall there were a few that were successful (Jennifer Lynch)
And yes I have traveled to places like the Middle East when I was teen when my father was working on oil and gas projects. I also went to an embassy school with other international students and hob nobed with the kids of the diplomats. I also attended one of the best university in the US where I had the opportunity to interact with international students and hear from their point of view.
Remember what yo mama used to say “Be careful when you assume becuase it makes an ASS out of U and Me”
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 18th, 2007 at 12:53 pmJeff:
ohh an taun i doubt very much that your an “Indonesian - american muslim” i doubt that have you actually even traveled to Indonesia and seen what its like? . just wondering now if you say your an indonesian american that usually means you immgrated out of Indonesia to america and obtained a citizenship, but if you say your parents had came from their then still doesn’t make you an “Indonesian american” as your american citizen with indonesian blood line only. so in other words you never obtain a citizenship for indonesia.. and FYI if you say “dual” then know this Indonesia does not acknowledge a dual citizen ship. so tell me how are you or in what way do you actually think that your american / indonesian citizen
No I have never been to Indonesia. That is no secret. I was born and raised in the USA hence the “Indonesian-American”.. I am one of those hyphenated Americans ;).. kinda like “African-American” or “Chinese-American”. I do not have any Indonesian citizenship nor am I interested in it. My parents instilled in me that where I am born and raised is where I am from. So America is my homeland and for the most part this country has been good to me.
EDIT: As I mentioned before, I have had a lot of contact with students overseas throughout college since my major is in the science field. some of them are indonesian students and they divulge an insight to their country outside of what is told in the media.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 18th, 2007 at 2:51 pmTuan said:
For the most part, it is true but it is degrading due to outside influences, especially amongst the young people in Jakarta where drug use and promiscuity is high. Obviously you have not heard of the sexual paradise of Bali, Blok M (Jakarta) and Dolly (Surabaya).
Tuan, this is utter uninformed drivel. Have you ever been to Bali, Jakarta or Surabaya? There are issues with some young people with regard to sex and drugs but the numbers in relation to the population as a whole are really quite insignificant, much, much lower in fact than the problem in American cities and towns
We in the US are not notorious for places like that and whoring our women so openly for tourist money. In America there is not ambiguity about what is right or wrong as there is in Indonesia mainly because they are driven by greed and sloth.
We do not as you say whore our women for tourist money, never having been here, I don’t really see how you can make a stement like that. In America you hide the whoring behind escort services and the like, that sounds like ambiguity to me. Prostitution is illegal in all but two states, but in the Las Vegas Yellow Pages alone there are 7 whole pages of Escort and Entertainment services advertised.
In America you also whore your women in Pornographic movies and Magazines, in so called fashion shows, and advertising.
This attitude you display is one of the reasons that so many people outside of America, dislike America. Please put your own house in order before making disparaging remarks about ours.
Peace
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November 19th, 2007 at 3:35 amMohammed Khafi
I agree with you, i’m an american but my wife is Indonesian, i just got back from Indonesia 4 months ago i like bandung a lot better just because the weather is more cooler then jakarta ;-). anyways i agree with you on everything you just said. a lot of foreigners do not like americans because we americans have bad attitudes, lots of people like at americans as bad attitudes,rich snobs,party type of people. i apologise to you for what disrespects tuan had mention. he makes these remarks as he does not understand how the rest of the world looks at americans, he has this idea that americans are liked around the world, which we are not. at least when i travel to foreign Countrys like Indonesia i’m very respectful to your culture,people and by the way i’m also a muslim :-). i’m still learning islam my wife is helping me on that.
take care dude
peace -
November 19th, 2007 at 3:37 amMohammed Khafi,
Tuan, this is utter uninformed drivel. Have you ever been to Bali, Jakarta or Surabaya?
No, I haven’t. Yet my in-depth discussion with Indonesian expatriates point out that it is why some foreigners from every continent in the world come to Indonesia. Dolly from I know is one of the biggest whorehouses in SE Asia and sex trafficking in Bali is very high. Its is not my business what they do but as I like to say there are consequences to it which does not benefit Indonesia’s moral fabric.
There are issues with some young people with regard to sex and drugs but the numbers in relation to the population as a whole are really quite insignificant, much, much lower in fact than the problem in American cities and towns
I will not touch on this since we both do not have figures to back up. My knowledge is based on discussions I have had with Indonesian that point out that it is prevalent and steadily growing due to outside influences (our media). Look no further that Indonesian cinema is very “western” mainly because its geared towards the youth who aspire to be “western”. I tend to believe that cultures and traditions come and go when faced with a more influential culture. Take for example the Indonesian community in South Africa where Cape Malays do not speak a word of their ancestral tongue of Bahasa. But to be fair, the Indonesian decedents of Sri Lanka and Suriname still speak a version of Bahasa, and have remnants of the “motherland”
We do not as you say whore our women for tourist money, never having been here, I don’t really see how you can make a stement like that.
You can do a search on Indonesian matters and see various articles that allude to it.
In America you hide the whoring behind escort services and the like, that sounds like ambiguity to me.
For the most part those activities are crack down hard by the police and there is conscious effort to subdue it, unlike Indonesia.
In America you also whore your women in Pornographic movies and Magazines, in so called fashion shows, and advertising.
Same is in Indonesia.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 19th, 2007 at 3:40 amTuan
again your not understanding look how many rape cases came from the usa, hence Korean - american war, Vietnam war, war in iraq. you fail to see the truth be hind that in history. if you can not be respectful to Indonesia / Indonesians then maybe you should stop posting on this forum. -
November 19th, 2007 at 3:52 amJeff:
I agree with you, i’m an american
I sometimes find it hard to believe with the amount of grammatical and spelling errors, which makes me think that English is not your first language or if you really are an American (Either that or your from ghetto or trailer park). A few is ok, but if it littered with a lot, then it does not look good.
a lot of foreigners do not like americans because we americans have bad attitudes, lots of people like at americans as bad attitudes,rich snobs,party type of people. i apologise to you for what disrespects tuan had mention. he makes these remarks as he does not understand how the rest of the world looks at americans,
To be honest, I and many other Americans do not care what others think of us. Its more of the case, the world needs us and looks up to us but will put up with our “attitudes”. In other words, it is them that have problem with their envy.
i’m still learning islam my wife is helping me on that.
FYI: If you converted for your wife, then you have turned to islam for the wrong reasons. As far as I know, Indonesian marriage law has a way of cornering men into converting to Islam, which makes me think whether their conversion is sincere. On the other hand, I know some who are sincere about their “reversion” but there are those who aren’t just to appease the wife.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 19th, 2007 at 3:59 amJeff:
again your not understanding look how many rape cases came from the usa, hence Korean - american war, Vietnam war, war in iraq.
That is a very small minority. You are also alluding that the majority of the US soldiers partake in those activities, which also includes you since you say you are a former Marine (unless you also participated as well).
if you can not be respectful to Indonesia / Indonesians then maybe you should stop posting on this forum.
It’s a free world.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 19th, 2007 at 4:14 amtuan
First of all i never raped anyone. second of some activity of rape does occur from time to time i’m merely showing that even rape happens in america reguarding your statement above. before you even mention a small minority check world statistics before you mention that. did you know that Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes. thats 683,00 forcible rapes occur every year, which equals 56,916 per month; 1,871 per day, 78 per hour; and 1.3 per minute and your saying a small minoirty. how do you figure a small account from that statistics? that information came from Sources:U.S. Department of Justice, 1994. However south africa does have the highest -
November 19th, 2007 at 4:22 amtuan
i am an american and honestly i’m very bad with spelling i will not deny that and that i can’t. my spelling maybe off but should i care maybe. however do i care no not really. however i could take the time to actually correct it. ask me if i care. no not at all. -
November 19th, 2007 at 5:11 amJeff:
i am an american and honestly i’m very bad with spelling i will not deny that and that i can’t. my spelling maybe off but should i care maybe. however do i care no not really. however i could take the time to actually correct it. ask me if i care. no not at all.
Its called presentation. The weight of what you say is also determined by its delivery.
First of all i never raped anyone.
Neither has the most of the US troops in history. Your previous statement make it seem that all US troops are very reckless with their sexual desires. Though, I sometimes wonder under what conditions you met your current wife?
i’m merely showing that even rape happens in america reguarding your statement above.
The statement I made about rape in the Indonesia was in reference to the Jakarta riots of 98 when there was the mass raped and pillage innocent Chinese citizens. Tell me, is there a moment in recent US history where a mass of people raped and pillage fellow citizens on the scale of the Jakarta 98 riots?
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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November 19th, 2007 at 7:16 amTaun
WoW i must have an effect on you as to why you “I sometimes wonder under what conditions you met your current wife?” you must get off on that eh. for your information i met my wife back in 1970. i’m not hear to talk about my personal life, and with such do respect leave my wife out of this.. the thing about the military taun that you will never understand (because you are not in the service) is that we (military) may have to be called to war which no one likes having to go and we would not go out to say that we are the best. its sicking to know that people state that we are the best because we have the weaponry that can kill more people. let me ask you this question taun, how would you feel being active duty order to go to a foreign country now knowning that a good chance that you/your partner / the enemy will no longer see their family could be a wife a husband son daughter ect. now i ask you just knowning that your taking human life and just how bad it truly is, your proud that our country has the ability to kill? war its self is a find a seek game both are being hunted. i just want to tell you a little true story and hope you can see from my point of view, in 1965 i was 18 years of age when i enlisted in the marine corps, i was deployed to vietnam in march. i was scared along with rest of the battalion i never had to fire a weapon especially an m-14 assault rifle to a moving target, my best friend took fire watch when we were it by what was called front national pour la Liberation which were insurgent fighting against south vietnam we had called them Victor Charlie and some called the Charile. as we cleared the area my best friend that i grew up with was shoot in chest slowly dying, are command leader told us to move on to our route leaving my best friend to die alone. and you know what it felt like leaving a family member to die alone. when we rotated back around the world American cilivilans had split at us calling us baby killers, i have two prosthetic legs because i saved my battalion from an incomming grenade. the federal government did nothing for me, i was denied several times for the GI Bill my parents help me contacted a lawyer after 2 years of fighting with the federal government i finally got my GI Bill,combat pay. by 1969 i traveled to Indonesia and met this beautiful lady who soon became my wife in 1973. anyhow thats my story. it hurts when you hear people say comments about wanting to concer another country as what you mentioned about the american flag yesterday it takes sacrfice to do the stuff we done -
November 19th, 2007 at 4:37 pmTuan,
If I talk to expats in Indonesia, I get a very strange view of their country and their customs, luckily I have travelled widely and know the difference.
I would suggest that the expat students that you talk to are from a very restricted socio economic class in Indonesia, hardly representative of the populous as a whole. Please do not base your judgements of Indonesia on solely on their opinions and views, the same can be said for the internet. The vast majority of Indonesians have no access to this medium, those who do are generally from the town and cities and make up a small percentage of the general population.
Tuan you said to Jeff:
I sometimes find it hard to believe with the amount of grammatical and spelling errors, which makes me think that English is not your first language or if you really are an American (Either that or your from ghetto or trailer park). A few is ok, but if it littered with a lot, then it does not look good.
Again I would repeat what I said in my earlier posting, please put your own house in order first, your posts are also littered with grammatical errors, spelling is ok, but there are spellcheckers which can deal with that aren’t there? Jeff has never professed to be a highly educated man, he is somebody who just wants to comment here and it seems to me that he does it with respect for everybody.
You however have reinforced the comment that I made earlier about why so many people dislike America by your attitude and your comments, such as:
To be honest, I and many other Americans do not care what others think of us. Its more of the case, the world needs us and looks up to us but will put up with our “attitudes”. In other words, it is them that have problem with their envy.
Nobody envies egotism, arrogance, and rudeness. You profess to be an Indonesian-American Muslim, yet do not exhibit the good attributes of any of them, maybe you should relabel yourself?
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Pakmantri Says:
November 19th, 2007 at 5:09 pmtuan said:
We in the US are not notorious for places like that and whoring our women so openly for tourist money. In America there is not ambiguity about what is right or wrong as there is in Indonesia mainly because they are driven by greed and sloth.
Yeah right, apparently you live in a very sheltered life in the suburb protected by your mommy.
Have you ever heard Girls gone wild saga?
Or have you ever go to New Orleans during Mardi Grass?
Or have you ever go to Miami or Panama City during the spring break?
Or have you ever go to Vegas, Reno, or Atlantic city?
Or have you ever try to Google Escort Service with any city name in the US? Maybe you have secretly ……….
Or party at L.A’s or other big cities clubs?
I have, have to try everything once in life; I bet you haven’t, mommy won’t let you! Although, tuan have a master degree and Jeff maybe not, I have more respect in Jeff than tuan. Because Jeff is real, he’s walk the walk, and a real patriot. He knows the strength of USA but he also acknowledge the weakness’ that it has. Jeff is the regular American folks that I have met in the US not a wannabe.
I am tired of this bubble head …………. called tuan.
To Jeff, Semper Fi my friend.
Peace.
P.S. Can’t wait to see his rant ………. rotflmao.
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November 19th, 2007 at 5:21 pmMohamad Kafi said:
You profess to be an Indonesian-American Muslim, yet do not exhibit the good attributes of any of them, maybe you should relabel yourself?
Exactly what I was going to say.
I suggest, Not Indonesian - wannabe American, kind of Muslim. -
November 19th, 2007 at 7:41 pmtuan said:
If you converted for your wife, then you have turned to islam for the wrong reasons. As far as I know, Indonesian marriage law has a way of cornering men into converting to Islam, which makes me think whether their conversion is sincere. On the other hand, I know some who are sincere about their “reversion” but there are those who aren’t just to appease the wife
Here is my profile on you,
You have no culture because you are neither Indonesian nor American. The reason I said it is because you don’t know jack about Indonesia and although you were born in the US, most of your childhood was spent in the middle east and in the embassy schools never in an American school in the US, therefore, you don’t really know the real American folks.
To compensate this lack of culture and identity you learn Islam, so that at least you can be called a Muslim.
Do you think this is a right reason? (I am just saying, hope it is not true)Remember these:
Don’t judge other or you’ll be judge.
When you point a finger to other there are three fingers pointing back at you.Jeff got married in 1973, therefore, he has been a Muslim even before you were conceived and yet in his own humble words he said “I am still learning Islam ……”
I think that’s what Islam is all about humble and not “takabur”, and the learning process will never end till the day you die, because God’s wisdoms are too big for a mere mortal to understand them all in a life time.Peace.
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