Beheadings Trial

Mar 21st, 2007, in News, by

The man on trial over the schoolgirl beheadings of 2005 is said to have carried out the attack as a Lebaran gift for Muslims.

Hasanuddin
Hasanuddin has been sentenced to 20 years.

November 10th, 2006.

Prosecutors at the Central Jakarta District Court allege that Hasanuddin, alias Hasan, alias Slamet Raharjo, who is Javanese, planned the beheadings of three Christian schoolgirls in 2005 as a way of avenging the murder of Muslims during the sectarian conflict in Central Sulawesi province between 1998 and 2002.

Prosecutor Payaman said:

The defendant planned or provoked others to commit violent acts aimed to incite terror.

Payaman went on to say that prosecutors had evidence that Hasan, who is the son-in-law of Poso Muslim militant leader Adnan Arsal, had plotted the attacks with a Muslim cleric, Ustadz Sanusi, in a meeting at the Ulil Arbab library in Gebang Rejo, Poso, in 2005. At this meeting Hasan told the preacher that when he was training with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) in the Philippines he had heard stories that it was customary for jihadists to attack security posts and kill soldiers as a form of Lebaran charity for Muslims, at the end of Ramadhan. Sanusi then asked him whether such Lebaran gifts could also be given to Muslims in Poso. Things were different in Poso, Hasan said, but he would think about it. mediaindo

Hasan thought about it for a while and at some later point he is said to have gotten the idea of cutting off the heads of Christians while reading a book. He then told two of his jihadist chums, Lilik Purnomo and Irwanto Irano, to find some targets of attack. He admitted to them that killing women and children was not allowed in sharia law but that it was justifiable as a form of revenge for past Christian attacks against Muslims.

We had better find some Christians as an Idul Fitri gift. Go look around.

Within a few days these two men, Purnomo and Irwanto Irano, had noticed that six Christian schoolgirls regularly took a route along an isolated, quiet and lonely jungle path, on their way to and from school. The girls were observed four times before the day of the attack, 29th October 2005.


Picture shows the body and severed head of one of the girls. Click to enlarge but be warned it may disturb.

Six machetes were bought, costing 180,000 rupiah, and two black plastic bags, costing 20,000 rupiah, at a Poso market with money provided by Hasan. Then the holy man, Sanusi, told Hasanuddin to write a note, to be placed next to the heads of the girls.

We still need another 100 heads. Blood for blood, a life for a life, and a head for a head.

After surveying the scene of attack Lilik and Irwanto recruited five of their Islamic boarding school pals to help in the attack, that is Papa Yusron alias Isran, Nanto alias Bojel, Agus Jenggot, Basri, and Wiwin Kalahe alias Tomo. On the day of the attack, at about 06.45, the group observed four girls in school uniforms walking along the path. Lilik gave a signal and the attack began. Papa Yusran hacked off the head of Alfita Polino, Agus Jenggot did the same to Theresia Morangki, Basri slashed at Noviana Malewa's head but she managed to flee. After this Basri caught the fourth girl, Yarni Sambua, and beheaded her.

Noviana Malewa
Noviana Malewa.

The heads of the girls were placed in the plastic bags and later taken by Tomo alias Wiwin Kalahe to a house in the Tanah Runtuh district of Poso. The machetes used were given to another Muslim cleric, Ustad Kholiq, who took them to his home, perhaps as souvenirs of jihad.

Not long after the attack two of the heads were discovered at a road junction in Lage district, near a police station, and one of the heads was found at the front of a church in Kasiguncu district.

Hasan has been charged under the anti-terrorism law and faces a death sentence if convicted, which seems rather likely. He did not speak during the proceedings, which have been adjourned until November 15th.

Lilik and Purwanto have had their trials delayed until next week. The other men who carried out the attack have not been caught.

_________________

15th November 2006

Hasanuddin's trial resumed today and he admitted that he was "involved" in the killings of the three girls and attempted murder of Noviana.

I admit that I was involved in the matter I am accused of, but there are several things [which the prosecution alleges] which are not true.

Hasanuddin says that the idea of cutting off the heads of Christians actually came from the preacher man, Ustad Sanusi. He himself never uttered words to that effect, he claims.

The idea of the heads as a Lebaran gift came from Ustad Sanusi.

Also the money used to buy the machetes, etc, totalling 500,000 rupiah, came from Ustad Sanusi.

Ustad [Sanusi] gave me money when he told me the stories of his involvement with the MILF in the Philippines.

He did however talk of killing to his comrades:

I said it was okay to kill, but in a proportional way. It was war, and the war wasn't caused by vengeance, but because of God, you can't just play around.

However he did admit that one motivation for the attack was the past killings, some of them beheadings, of Muslims in Poso.

For example at the Wali Songo school many people were slaughtered. In other places babies were disemboweled, their parents hacked to pieces.

Another reason he said was as a "shock therapy", to remind people of what had happened between 1998 and 2001.

There were many attacks in Poso but where were the security forces? Where was the law? It was only after the beheadings of the three girls that presidential decree 14/2005 was signed, as if the killings [of those girls] was more sadistic than all the other killings!

He said he and the other men had received no payment for the attack. Finally he admitted:

It was wrong according to the law and religion, I admit I was wrong, I promise to never do it again.

The prosecution will begin its response on 22nd November. detik

________________

19th November 2006.

Hasanuddin, and the two other men on trial, today met representatives of the families of the slain girls and apologised. Albert Morangki, father of Theresia Morangki, accepted the apology on behalf all concerned. Hasanuddin said he hoped that this act of his would help in creating peace in central Sulawesi.

I have apologised many times before but this is the first time I have done it face to face with the families of the victims.

The meeting was arranged by the Jakarta police force and was attended by Jakarta police Brigadier General Anton Bachrul Alam, Poso police Brigadier General Muhammad Guntur, as well as Reverend Ernio, who accompanied the families of the victims.

At the end of the meeting Hasanuddin was asked to lead a prayer in which the recovery of the Poso region was hoped for. After that Reverend Ernio led another prayer. detik

________________

27th November 2006.

Jakarta Post says the National Commission on Violence Against Women deplores the reconciliatory move between the three men charged with the beheading of three Christian schoolgirls Poso, Central Sulawesi and relatives of the victims. The Commission's chairwoman, Kamala Chandrakirana, said that the move could interfere with the ongoing trial in Jakarta.

If there was to be any reconciliation, it should have taken place after the trial was completed. We're really worried that the reconciliation will disturb the legal process to find justice for the families of the victims.

Noviana Malewa, the sole survivor of the attack, appeared in court on the 27th at the trial of Hasanuddin. She said she did not see who had carried out the attacks, in any case they were wearing masks. She retold the events of the story:

I was walking with my three friends, Alvita Polino, Theresia Morangkir, and Yani Sambue from Bukit Bambu hamlet towards the main road. Then suddenly Alvita screamed because there was someone standing in front of her wearing black clothes with a mask on.
(Saya berjalan bersama tiga teman saya, Alvita Polino, Theresia Morangkir, dan Yani Sambue dari kampung Bukit Bambu ke arah jalan raya. Lalu, tiba-tiba Alvita berteriak karena ada seseorang berpakaian hitam dengan muka ditutup di hadapannya.)

Novita then ran back the way she had walked because she saw the men had machetes. She collided with Yani, fell, and then her right cheek was slashed at with a machete.

Then I got up and ran towards a ravine. At the same time Yani was chased by one of the men.
(Saya kemudian segera bangun dan lari ke arah jurang. Sedangkan Yani dikejar oleh orang bertutup wajah itu.)

She said she didn't know what happened to her three friends, she didn't see them get killed. After she got away she hid for a while and then followed the river back to Bukit Bambu. There she was taken to a hospital.

On the same day at the trial five other people were called to testify, none of them eye-witnesses. The trial continues on 4th December. gatra

_______________

January 17th 2007.

The trials are ongoing. Hasanuddin today denied that he had put about the idea to find Christian victims for beheading, in contrast to the testimony of Lilik Purnomo alias Haris. Hasanuddin claimed that he had said that it was most important to find victims who were native to the Poso area, instead of recent arrivals, like himself.

Hasanuddin also denied that he and Lilik had several times met to discuss the plan before the attack.

Both Lilik Purnomo and co-defendant Irwanto Irano, who are being tried together, separately from Hasanuddin, have admitted their roles in the attack, including the planning.

Irwanto admits to having cut off the foot of one of the victims. He says that Haris alias Lilik Purnomo was the "field co-ordinator" in the attack. vhr

Lilik Purnomo admitted to being the field co-ordinator but said he did not take part in the actual killings. He said he had recruited the five other men, Papa Yusron alias Isran, Nanto (Irwanto Irano) alias Bojel, Agus Jenggot, Basri, and Wiwin Kalahe alias Tomo.

Papa Yusran alias Isran, Agus Jenggot, and Basri, have not been caught, nor has Muslim cleric Sanusi, who is said to have been involved in the planning of the attack, with Hasanuddin. antara

The trial of these two continues on 24th January.

_______________

January 24th 2007

Today in court both Lilik Purnomo and Irwanto Irano admitted their guilt but expressed regret.

Lilik said he had planned out the details of the attack but did not actually kill any of the girls.

Irwanto Irano said he cut off one of the girls' feet but blamed Papa Yusran, Agus Jenggot, and Basri for the beheadings. vhr

_______________________

February 14th 2007

The prosecution was not ready to continue with its case in court today and Hasanuddin's trial is delayed again until the 19th. vhr

______________________

February 19th 2007

The prosecution has requested a 20-year jail term for Hasanuddin. Hasanuddin was said by the prosecutor to have been the "brains" behind the murders without actually taking part in killing. Hasanuddin is charged with terrorism offences. The chief prosecutor said that Hasanuddin had been involved in the murders of three people but in his favour he had been forgiven by the victim's families, he had expressed regret, and promised to never do it again.

The defence will make its case on 26th February. antara

______________________

February 20th 2007

The prosecution has requested that Hasanuddin's two accomplices, Lilik Purnomo and Irwanto Irano, also be given 20 year sentences, for terrorism offences. As in the case of Hasanuddin the prosecution asked that any time already served be taken off the 20 years. detik

______________________

March 5th 2007.

The presiding judge has allowed a request from Hasanuddin that Basri and Wiwin Kalahe, two of his accomplices in the murders, be called to give evidence that would mitigate the charges against him. The two men will appear on 7th March. vhr

______________________

March 21st 2007.

Hasanuddin was sentenced to 20 years for being the "brains" behind the beheadings. The sentence was in accordance with the demands of the prosecution. antara His two juniors, Lilik Purnomo and Irwanto Irano, were sentenced to 14 years each, less than the 20 years asked for by the prosecution. detik

Hasanuddin was heard to complain that according to Islamic law he should be freed, because he was only avenging the murders of Muslims in years past. He added that he had already said sorry for the killings and the victims' families had forgiven him so that was stronger reason for him to be freed. He said he would think about appealing the harshness of the sentence. detik

A UK television report on the beheadings.


78 Comments on “Beheadings Trial”

  1. avatar Czeslaw says:

    Hello folks, this page is dedicated to the victims of terror, the victims of three young school girls, who were murdered, and the matter concerned there of.

    So, please kindly put all other matters out of this page.

    Please have repect for these poor souls.

    Lets concentrate in this page on the real issue, the victims of this religious cleansing, and what is evolving around it. Let’s see what attorney general Saleh have in his pocket to surprise us all.

    SO, please, no distractions, just the facts about these three Indonesian school grils and their case.

    Thanks

  2. avatar 1ndra says:

    Oh yeah, how about thinking the reason behind this is revenge from what they’ve done (murdering) Muslim in Poso?

  3. avatar Ismail says:

    yeah, Islam is revenge, I guess it’s adds up, oh religion of peace indeed. it’s a amazing Islam doesn’t her own versions of mother terresa or the Amish, but revenge seem to be there act of godliness.

    The three Girls are safe now in Christian heaven. “To die is gain, to live is Christ”. Jesus said “they will kill you all day long and claim they are doing God a favour”, wow.

  4. avatar Czeslaw says:

    1ndra, no one is attacking you nor your point of view. There is no reason for you to blindly defend your self. Yeah, what was first, egg or the chicken. Right? What this will solve to help you and me? I am very sad for the mass murders happening right now in Iraq. In short time, it will catch up with the Darfur situation. Just read clips from the press below:

    Trapped

    150 die in deadliest attack of Iraq war

    1ndra, it is to hard to stay cool and write all what is on your or my mind, when I see so many people being murdered in the name of some Allah, muhamed, shi’ia, suni, beer, no beer, etc..

    Why don’t you propose something to solve these massacres in Darfur and Iraq. I will not believe that becasue NATO is in Iraq that is the casue of shi’ia murdering sunnis, and sunnis murdering sh’ias. Same will apply to the Darfur situation. Partner, just in this month alone, tilll about 20th of November there were counted 3,720 deaths of sectarian violance in Iraq. In this same time, there were 14 dead in the combat aganst NATO.

    Are those number not puzzling to you?

  5. avatar Robert says:

    When a person gets caught for drug trafficking he might face death penalty. When the same person would behead some girls he would face 20 years of inprisonment only.
    This surely will strengthen the image of Indonesia being a state with a religion-biased and arbitrary judicial system. Good promotion for Indonesia!

    Hasanuddin was heard to complain that according to Islamic law he should be freed, because he was only avenging the murders of Muslims in years past. He added that he had already said sorry for the killings and the victims’ families had forgiven him so that was stronger reason for him to be freed.

    If his relatives would be beheaded by Christian militants would he accept a “sorry” from them too? When these kind of people would be in charge of Indonesia there would be rivers of blood flowing in the streets due their “avenging” activities.

    He said he would think about appealing the harshness of the sentence.

    20 years inprisonment harsh? And the the beheading itself was an act of tenderness or respect, what planet is he from? If there would be a Nobelprize for hypocrisy Hasanuddin would be the #1 nominee!

  6. avatar Tomaculum says:

    20 years and after 7 years he will get an amnesty because of his good behaviour in the jail (he will surely pray at least 5 times a day), and dependent of the next president maybe he can go out of the jail earlier.
    That is Indonesia.
    Oh, what a beautiful country!

  7. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    I think he and every one like him anywhere on the planet deserve to rot in jail until they die, 20 years what a joke. He should be thrown into a filthy pig sty, and made to live the rest of his life, stinking of pig sh*t, and eating swill.

    Muslim? He is a 4ucking disgrace to Islam and to Allah!

    I want to know where are the ring leaders and the rest of his accomplices? Are our police so pathetic that they can’t find them and bring them to justice, are they still out there spreading their filthy corrupted religious teachings to a new group?

    I want to take this opportunity to apologise, none of my so called Brothers in Islam have done it, so let me be the first. I am heartily sickened by what these animals did to these innocent girls, I am heartily sickened by any violence against innocents, for whatever reason. I am not going to apologise for these people, they do not deserve it, I just want you to know that there is a tolerant, caring and loving side to Islam, and I will continue to struggle to make it know, so that we can all live together in harmony as God intended. Violence and devisiveness is inspired in mankind by Satan, but we can, if we all work together, find some way to put an end to this cycle of hatred.

    Peace

  8. avatar Sputjam says:

    Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Mohamed was against enslavement of mankind to religion.
    You are suppose to serve the one God, by doing good deeds. AND YOU WILL BE JUDGED BY YOUR DEEDS ALONE.
    No worship, no mosques, temples, churches. No holy cities such as jerusalem and mecca.
    never allow priest/imams/ustadz to dictate your lives and don’t ever listen to them.

    In the case of wrong doing above, the Christian community have the right to demand similar injustice that has befallen on them. That means the Christians can demand that women relatives/islamic community of the guilty party ought to be beheaded in similar circumstances (an eye for an eye). Failing that, they can ask for compensation. But the best is forgiveness in the eye of God.

    You have seen the folly of misinteprating God’s messages to promote pagan worship in islam and and human worship in Christianity.
    And how pagan Arabs mocked prophet Mohamed saying that he was murderous and married a 9 year old in the hadith and had many wives (was it 9 wives). If you follow hadith, then you are doomed.
    These writings in the hadith clearly go against messages in the koran which clearly states that you cannot marry an underage and you can have maximum four wives, provided the wives, after the first, have children but no husband.

    Abandon religion. That was the messages of Christ and Mohamed. And embrace God’s deen (system/way/order) by being righteous and do good deeds. So simple but very difficult for manknd to understand.

  9. avatar Mohamed Kamrul says:

    The perpertrators of this crime deserve to have pork sausages inserted into their bottoms before they eat the pork sh*t.
    They are pathetic.

  10. avatar Julita says:

    Many condemn him but I am really surprised that there exist some who try to make excuses for him and justify him. How blind can one be, why not accept this one is wrong. Titik!

  11. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Abandon religion. That was the messages of Christ and Mohamed. And embrace God’s deen (system/way/order) by being righteous and do good deeds. So simple but very difficult for manknd to understand.

    Yes God had abandoned us and we are on our own. I knew this at a very young age. Few of my best friends have lost their parents to illness. It was devastating. Usually the eldests would leave school to help with family chores and supporting younger siblings. I was a very angry young man. The Chinese and non-Muslims fared much better than devout Muslims. I was constantly reminded that Allah was testing us, but I was not stupid enough to buy that reasoning. My suspicious was realised in later years through the advent of info technology. Infact I was not alone!

  12. avatar Dimp says:

    If Tibo was guilty then he should be punished, if there was a priest that blessed their action then he should be punished too. If Hasannudin is guilty then he should be punished, if there is an ustad that gave him money knowing his intention then he should also be punished. Simple, don’t complicate things by including Israel, bad mouthing Islam. Just because there are bad seeds in Christians and Islams does not mean that the whole religions are bad.

  13. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    The chances Islam trees bearing rotten fruits are higher because their seeds are fed with out-of-date fertiliser. Christian seeds, on the other hand have since discarded the old package and fed with fresh fertiliser, and their fruits are much healthier and delicious.

  14. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Aluang,

    Just because at the moment that the bad seeds seem to be majority coming from Islam does not mean that the whole of Islam is bad, the same thing when the Christians are invading other countries in the name of Christianity (South America for example where the native people were forced to accept Christianity). True that since then Christianity has abandoned the old package, but it also doesn’t mean that there are no bad seeds within the Christian world. Just check our “Camp Jesus” you see what I mean.

  15. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Aluang, God hasnt abandoned anyone. What is blinding us is the hatred and the lost of common sense, and arrogance in a way one feels that one’s religion is better than others therefore it’s justified to take lives – this goes for any religions/cults. But I am speechless about this case. It’s so sad.

  16. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Ismail gone Augusto appeared Augusto gone Aluang appeared.

  17. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Dear Dimp, you are a believer. IMHO, religions are for the weak. And IMHO, any deity that placed worship of Him as first priority is unsecure and dubious. Thanks for the invitation to Camp Jesus anyway.

    My forefathers belonged to the old school of thought – the original Pancasila philosophy as formulated by Pak Sukarno where families and nationalism come before religion. We believe in our own Javanese value, the kebatinan, which is better than any religion.

  18. avatar Czeslaw says:

    To Mohammed Khafi:

    I am a Catholic from Poland. I am glad that I met a men like you.
    It is so hard for us to believe, that Islam have anything good in it, after what is happening all over the place.

    I just wish that people like you would travel to Pakistan, Palestine, Lebanon and Afghanistan and talk to your brothers and sisters about loving each other.
    To blow up own child to hurt some one else as is lately happening in Iraq and is normal way of hate in Palestine.

    Mr. Khafi, I believe that you are just one in many millions of Muslims.
    Peace be with you, your family and your friends.

  19. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Aluang,

    If you think religion is for the weaks, then it is your opinion. I consider religion as something that can guide people. We have law as a way to guide our action, I consider religion is a way (not the only) to guide our moral.

    FYI, Camp Jesus is a documentary (it was nominated for an Academy Award as well as best documentary).

  20. avatar Czeslaw says:

    Mr Khafi;
    there may be misunderstanding, of one of my sentences:

    To blow up own child to hurt some one else, as is lately happening in Iraq and is normal way of hate in Palestine, should be stopped, abandoned in the name of your God Allah.

    Children were born to have fun, grow, go to school, grow some more, get married and have own families, and then enjoy their own children, grandchildren.

    This is what I mean, and just my mind got cut off to finish my thought.

    My appology.

  21. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Hi Czeslaw, I have to correct you. Mr. Khafi is one tenth of Muslim worldwide. The majority of Indonesian Muslims think like him.

    If you are to place Mr. Khafi among all other Muslims (minus the 200+ millions Indonesian Muslims), then you are right to say he is one in many millions. I was an overseas students for a large part of my young life. Indonesian Muslim students are considered as nonstandard group as we are way too liberal with our belief. I am sure if you know any Indonesian Muslim students, you would come across many who don’t mind sharing a meal of pork chop with you. All our presidents are pseudo-Muslims.

  22. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Czeslaw, the media propaganda is actually happening in both sides, Islam and Jews, it’s a vicious cycle that will not stop until the government from both sides sit down together and agree to stop feeding children with kids shows that promote hatred, murders, bombing etc done by the other party. They don’t even know why they hate each other. All they know is that they HAVE TO hate them. Again this is about teaching/showing kids the wrong things. I agree with you that kids should do all those you mentioned.

    Aluang, if majority thought like Khafi, Sharia wouldnt stand a chance in Aceh, Tangerang, let alone thruout Indo. I think there are moderate moslems there, but it’s not a majority.

    I was one of those students, but I’ve always prefered bacon.

  23. avatar Sputjam says:

    All those wasteful debate on which religion is the right one. The folly of mankind.
    Unlike aluang, I believe in The Creator, but not in religion.
    The creator accepts anyone who believes in Him and do good deeds.
    Only evidence I have is the scriptures and messages in it, warning mankind to be humble, not to do mischief and be righteous.
    Aluang is correct that the islamic tree has gone rotten. But what do you expect from a man made religion that evolved from pagan Arab traditions. Other religon evolved in similar ways from different cultures.
    But if you disbelieve, you must have firm evidence that there is no God. And if you have the evidence, then you must share it with others. But if you do not, then take heed God’s warnings.
    Remember, God is only a call away.

    He has programmed for you from the Order what He has willed with it Noah, and which We inspired you, and what We willed with it Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. You shall uphold the Order, and do not you be divided therein. Most difficult upon the idolators what you call them to. For the God, He choses towards Him whomever He wills, and He guides towards Him those who return.
    (Q 42:13)

  24. avatar Agusto says:

    The moderate Muslims are either just acting as apologists for the jihadist or they are just sitting on the fence enjoying the game and support who ever is winning, they are more dangerous than their devout Muslim brothers! They are the ones confusing the gullibles to believe that islam is just like any other religion! Have you seen any moderate Muslims stand up and denounce their “jihadist cleric”, Shariah and all that? Indonesia is a lost case for the non Muslims, their Muslim brothers will not be there to help them! It is sad to see the mindset of Muslims every where in this earth! Where is your humanity, conscience and compassion! No matter what is said in the koran, if it is wrong its wrong! Dont you Muslims dare to say that! Where is that martin luther of islam? Beheaded I supposed!

  25. avatar Rambutan says:

    Augusto said:

    The moderate Muslims are either just acting as apologists for the jihadist or they are just sitting on the fence enjoying the game and support who ever is winning, they are more dangerous than their devout Muslim brothers! They are the ones confusing the gullibles to believe that islam is just like any other religion! Have you seen any moderate Muslims stand up and denounce their “jihadist cleric”, Shariah and all that? Indonesia is a lost case for the non Muslims, their Muslim brothers will not be there to help them! It is sad to see the mindset of Muslims every where in this earth! Where is your humanity, conscience and compassion! No matter what is said in the koran, if it is wrong its wrong! Dont you Muslims dare to say that! Where is that martin luther of islam? Beheaded I supposed!

    Sorry, but that’s just dumb. Many of the Indonesian moderate Muslims (whatever that exactly is) are doing a lot to promote pluralism, tolerance and are adamant in their support for a secular state.
    I still remember when a radical group (I think it was FPI) threatened to attack a cultural centre which is home to the ‘Liberal Islam Network’ (Utan Kayu). The youth groups of NU actually guarded the compound for several days to prevent the attack. This was a clear sign that the majority of moderates is willing to stand up against a radical and violent minority. I agree, the moderates do not speak out often enough and usually the small radical groups are much more vocal and easily make the headlines. But don’t take this as a sign that they represent the majority. You can find the phenomena of the ‘silent majority’ everywhere.

    Your comment about an Islamic Martin Luther is equally dumb. Don’t compare the history of Christianity and Islam. And don’t expect that both religions will develop in similar ways.

  26. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Augusto, the West like to call us ‘moderate’. In fact I don’t even think we are even Muslims by any standard. Our forum-mate Mohd. Khafi is a typical Indonesian Muslim, Hasyim Muzadi (head of NU) is another one, our former president Gus Dur belongs to the same category. Take a pick off the street and you find most share the same view. Sending them to the Middle East is like dropping goldfishes into a pond full of sharks. Indonesian version of Islam is considered heretic according to strict Islamic version.
    See what Hasyim Muzadi has to say about Sunnis and Shias: http://www.Indonesiamatters.com/1153/sunni-vs-shia/

    Here is what you have misunderstood:
    It is not that we are deliberately fronting Islam as peaceful. It is because Islam as we know it, is peaceful. There is no beheading, amputation or stoning after every Friday sermon. Infact we are so messed up with local traditions that we do not share the same universal jihadi view. Indonesians traditionally are peaceful and Islam entered Indonesia by way of Sufism. Mind you, Rambutan is right when he said ‘Indonesian Muslims are doing a lot to promote pluralism, tolerance and are adamant in their support for a secular state’. If we smelled jihadis rats, I am sure they will be lynched by the local Muslims. But I can’t say how long we are staying that way as I can see extremism inching in on Poso, and we have already lost Acheh.

  27. avatar Czeslaw says:

    Hello Aluang, Ihankt, Augusto and Rambutan and Khafi;
    Thank you for taking the part in this dialog. I am working right now, and took a short break to check my e-mail, and there were some comments from all of you.

    It is a pleasure, to see a free exchange of own opinions and feelings and not be afraid of reprisals. If that would happen between Suni and Shi’ia people in Iraq, we all would feel safe to travel there for the pleasurable and safe visit. Similar case in Palestine and Lebanon.

    It is sad, but what I think, neither side Suni or Shi’ia wants to live in peace with any one around. It is a cultural and religious mix between Arabs and Persians infiltrated (or mixed in) with the Suni and Shi’ia translation of the religious dogmas. Persians were conquered by Islam. I have Persian friends. They do not want Ayatollah in Persia at all. They say, they were tricked and lied to when they took Khomeini in, to replace Reza Pahlavi. Persians feel cheated and betrayed by Muslims and Islam.

    Persians have own realigns. One of the major is Zarathustra, the Zoroaster the messenger of Ahura Mazda, the Only God. Please mind guys, that both Islam and Christianity took, or rather adopted the “singularity” of the only god, from Zoroastrianism. I am a Catholic, and I do believe in one God. But, since I am learning and learning, I can not hide what I learn. Jews, the Farzees, when returned from the slavery in Persia brought the “singular god idea” to the Jews in Jerusalem, the Sadducees. So, here we have something compArable the Jewish Sadducees and Farzees on one hand, and on the other, we have Suni and Shi’ia in Islam, and on the Christian side, we have Catholics and Protestants. However, Catholics and Protestants may not be compArable to the Jewish and Islamic situation too much. Not because I am Catholic.

    But what we all are not taking into account, is, that there are other religious beliefs in all the remaining parts of this small planet. Please accept it as the human rights, that each of us is a gift of the God to each other.

    It would be very desirable that people from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Iraq, and Iran join this type of conversations. This dialog is at will, and can not be forced.

    We still will have beheadings, blowing up own children in the name of hate, not Allah. There is a little spark of hope, with people like you. But I do not think that this will stop the mass murder and genocide at Darfur, or suicide psychopaths in Iraq and Palestine.

    Keep communication channels open. Talk freely without fear, or intention to overpower another person. In few generations things may change for better.

    Well, my lunch is up.

    Just one more thing:
    Executing Hasanuddin, alias Hasan, alias Slamet Raharjo, and/or Amrozi for Bali bombings who were involved in these tragic murders, will keep open the floods of justifications of killing others.

    Killing of another person for whatever reasons can not be justified. Killing of another person is nothing more, than just a murder.

    Killing one self, is a murder too.

  28. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Dear Czeslaw, I think this is the wrong site to front any anti-Islam sentiments. With due respect, let’s us deal with our own problem.

    Only a few percentage of our huge population are wealthy enough or have the means to have internet connection. Out of these few percentage, only a tiny fraction are Indonesian Muslim. And out of these tiny fraction, not everyone is interested in religious dialogue. You see, you talked to us but the masses can’t be reached.

    I believe your effort will be in better use with non-Indonesian Muslims. Indonesian Muslims still consult shamans or dukungs for ‘selamat’ (house warming) ceremonies which is syirik (shirk) by strict Islam standard. The fact that majority Indonesian Muslims are pseudo-Muslims, we will easily disengage once other major Islamic countries like Iran or Pakistan collapsed. The average poor Muslims saw the gravy train passed them and most are in favour of shariah because they thought it is an anti-corruption body, and nothing more. This is the message that we need to get across by Muslims like us.

  29. avatar Janma says:

    He said that he should go free because he was just taking ‘an eye for an eye’ or a head for a head….. so then America is right to attack Iraq? Because after 911 ,they are just taking their rightful revenge? So now we can cut the head off this fellow as revenge for cutting off those girls heads? circular logic…… lingkaran setan!
    Stop the Ride! I want to get off!!!!

  30. avatar Czeslaw says:

    Hello Aluang anak Bayang, and thank your for your inside information about the Indonesia Muslim-islam masters. I am glad to hear from you! Bravo!

    It is not anti Islam thinking. If would be, then what to think about Sunni killing Sunni?
    Shi’ia killing Shi’ia. Shi’is killiing Suni etc.

    Is that pro Allah doing and thinking?

    How about being a human first, before being anything else!

    I feel really bad, I do not know why, when I see so much poverty and misery associated with the religious over-rulings. People under islam’s heavy hand of imams or ayatollahs etc., are doomed to be born and die in misery and poverty. Like we were here in Poland in similar situation under Soviet occupation for almost 50 years.

    I am not sure about the reasons of mullahs, ayatollahs and imams to try to control the minds of other people. What is really intriguing is the fact, that they want all people under their control to be uneducated, poor, weak mentally and morally, and be completely obedient, to the point of committing a suicide act, or killing another person.

    I do not believe that this is for the glory of the all mighty Allah or Mohammed.

    I am watching carefully how things are developing in Iran. The little green-man Ahmajiad or whatever his name is, is just a poppet, a string jack ass for the ayatollah in Iran. He likes some publicity, but that is all he is allowed to have. He will die or will fall of grace on their first ayatollah eye blink. So, he doesn’t have any power or whatever. Ayatollah is all behind it, and has a stupid and brain washed dog barking for him.

    Well, would be a fair and human just to pull out of Iraq, or pull to the side, and let them Sunni and Shi’ia finish themselves completely? It is racial and religious genocide. Sunni against Sunni. Shi’ia against Shi’ia. Sunni against Shi’ia. As long as blood is flowing freely, they seem to be enjoying the blood bath.

    Pakistan will not collapse, for it is already too weak and too poor. There is nothing to break down. In order for things to change or collapse, it need to be some economic distress. Pakistan doesn’t exist economically. People were born without hope for anything, so committing suicide is a blessing to end the misery for all of those poor people.

    It is so sad, that people like Osama, Zawahiri, and others, are exploiting and abusing these poor folks. Why Osama will not build some small factories and help economically down there? He has the money. In Pakistan, $1,000,000 will do a lot to help establish some businesses. But that would change minds of people. They will see hope for their children and themselves. So, taliban and Al Queada will lose meat for its terrorist crimes.

    Osama will spent $20,000,000 of dollars to fight the windmills, but he will not feed one hungry Pakistani child. He will not allow one school to be build around him. Educated people around he will see as a denger to his idea and casue.

    Is Osama a Muslim? If not, then why suport him and his crimes?

    Do not make me laugh.

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