Gil, you need to do some research on Islam before making such statements. If you think that’s being condescending so be it! I just like people to back up their statements with evidence and/or logic, rather than some woolly liberalism/relativism.
I just knew it that you’re gonna say that Jack.. =) so be it! who cares anyway, right? it doesn’t really matter how other would feel when you say such things. what important is you can express your opinion and you don’t give a damn whether they’ll get hurt because your words, right jack? and you can justify what you’re doing in the name of freedom of expression. How lovely! okay Jack, i got your bottomline.
Anyway, like I said earlier, i’d like to learn because I think i know nothing about a lot of things. and perhaps you were right, I need to do some research about Islam before making such statements. Ah, i forgot to mention something!! I was born as a Muslim Jack, my friend. but i left it all behind and decided not to have any religion or belief because i simply thought I still need to progress furthermore. well, you might have known it, religion is rigid and exclusive, that is why.. =) besides, when one claims “I believe…” don’t you think tis a bit pretentious? and I don’t want to be devil’s best friend because vanity is devil’s favorite sin! so, Jack my friend, my bottomline is, I think you were right!! i do still need some research and deep observation about Islam. And perhaps i can get some enlightenment from you? maybe? I am willing to listen, Jack..
You know, women in Islam are men’s responsibility, Islam come to care them when the years before, women were being sold and killed.
In Islam, women is a foundation for the good family and country, a high respected person in Koran. Even they are 3x respected than men. And they’re easier to get in heaven than men.
Me, as a brother, I take care my sisters, I point them what good what bad, teaching them what to do and not, those ways are far better than let them fall in darkness, by being b*tches. I as a Moslem man, have a task to keep them as holy women.
And you, hedonism people, who judge us very badly, you cant even take care, have good and holy women, only take care b*tches, make love and sleep with them then find another…
You’re unworthy to talk about religion, so don’t start one…
Id prefer talk with my neighbour, a Christian father/priest, he had the same point of view about it. A man is a leader and he take care, protect, and teach woman in a good way.
Back to the topic, it’s not a problem if Yuzril and Rika were married, it’s their decision, not us, why bother? Jealous
If you’re a man, will u marry a far younger woman that are attractive, virgin and lovely?
And if you’re a woman, will u marry a far older man, that are stable OR the one in the same age who is childish, who still love playing around, clubbing, teasing and even sleep with other woman?
I do agree that free speech includes the right to offend (although not the right to gratuitous offence IMO) – since the process of challenging certain beliefs will almost inevitably involve offending certain sensibilities. So without this progress is almost impossible. There was a debate on UK TV last night about free speech, where the producer of the film directed by Theo van Gogh was telling how it contributed to the discussion about women’s rights under Islam. I don’t believe that free speech should be used to justify gratuituous offence, and I have not intended to offend for the sake of offending.
Here’s a quote to back up my comments about Islam and women: ‘(Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Mohammed was talking to a group of women when he said, “. I see the majority of you will go to Hell.” The women asked why, to which Mohammed responded, “You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions.” He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, “How?” Mohammed answered, “Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man’s? And that is on account of her short intelligence.” ‘ There are other verses which show Mohammed’s views of women. I realise not all Muslims share these opinions, but nonetheless it provides the scaffold for denying women rights in certain cultures. It is true what you say that culture plays a significant part – the Koran does not specify covering of the face, hands and feet, as you know.
Clearly you have seen for yourself the problems of Islam. Nietzsche said “Faith: not wanting to know what is true.” This of course is true for all forms of religion. From a pluralist and secular point of view a religion must be judged on how the adherents interact with their fellow human beings.
Arthur C Clarke said “A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.” In this respect it is worrying when a faith advises its followers to ignore information from other sources and the establishment of Islamic and Mormon Universities. The truth will stand up to examination.
Is Voltaire (a famous atheist) and Nietzsche (famous existentialist) taught widely in Islamic society? I don’t agree with much of what Voltaire says but he was a great thinker.
1ndra, I will comment on the parts of your post that I can make sense of. Human rights are EVERYONE’S concern and responsibility. Women don’t even have a voice under Islam. Your protestations that Islam respects women’s rights are in the face of the evidence, I’m afraid. There are so many examples of how Islam deprives women of equal rights.
All these comments about bitches shows your brutal way of life for the patriarchal repression that it is. By the way who is “[the] hedonism people”?
Your ranting shows you have listened to your imams but not done too much thinking for yourself in my opinion.
As for “keep then as holy women”, that shows how you treat women like possessions or life-stock, rather than actually respecting them 1ndra. No man who respects women (or has self-control or civility) would use terms like bitches for women. Hopefully these words will be removed.
BTW 1ndra, an obsession with virginity(that is a man demanding it of a woman) is a clear sign of sexual insecurity!
Thanks for the correction, you misunderstand what I’ve said…
I couldn’t talk too long, it will take a long long page to describe my opinions
I mean here is holy and virginity are much more on spiritual ways, think yourself about the difference between them and b*tches (Women who don’t take care their speak their attitude and so on).
But if you take that in sexuality, that’s better, what do you think about women who don’t take care their virginity (In real ways, b*tches, prostitution, hedonism way) and what about women that aren’t.
About thinker, in much situation, I’ve got women cant think deeply (It might be their nature, as women are much more using feeling than logical, and vice versa for men) and take wrong decisions that could lead to disintegration. This is reality, I, even hear it from women, some of them commenting about a woman leadership in a top management, and clearly point the differences between the former leader, that was a man.
And in other technical situations, they ask advices from me, rather than think themselves (To show how I respect them, not only giving them solutions, but how to make them themselves).
Women think differently from men, just give them a broken machine and a repair book and tools, can they fix it? It might be one in millions.
Even great cookers are men.
What’s left in a woman? A heavy task that men can’t do, but for her, this is her nature.
In Islam, a man is a leader, a powerful beings, and how about woman?
She is the one who grow him. Their morals are their mothers morals.
Woman can take man’s jobs, but not that perfect, even sometimes ruin them, and vice versa for man…
But this it out of topic much much more, we do have to respect the thread starter, it’s about Rika, not others.
Thanks for your opinion sharing, Jack, I do respect it and sorry for the misunderstanding caused by my unnative English, next time I’ll use Indonesian.
1ndra, your attitude to your fellow human beings is appalling. Not a very good advert for Islam is it? Perhaps this explains why sexual violence is so common in many Muslim countries eg gang rape in Pakistan as if a woman is a “bitch” as you so eloquently put it, then surely she deserves to be raped? Of course the woman’s chance of getting the perpetrators punished in Pakistan is next to zero as she needs four male witnesses to the crime!
I’m glad you have conceded that you think women are inferior, which puts your statements about women’s rights rather in doubt! Saying Islam respects women is like saying Islam tolerates Jews and Christians. There’s a difference between letting people exist as long as they respect your rules, and actually letting people act and think for themselves freely.
1ndra, there is a cleric in Australia who seems to share your views about women – I quote a story from The Australian about Sheikh Hilali:
‘ He said women were “weapons” used by “Satan” to control men.
“It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa).”
Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali’s remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia’s mufti.
Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali – who does not wear a hijab – said the Islamic headdress was not a “tool” worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. “It’s a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don’t wear the headscarf doesn’t mean that you’re considered fresh meat for sale,” the former member of John Howard’s Muslim advisory board told The Australian. “The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves.”
Australia’s most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not “detract or add to a person’s moral standards”, while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed AlI said it was “ignorant and naive” for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.
“Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime,” he said.
Ms Hage-AlI said she was “disgusted and offended” by Shiek Hilali’s comments. “I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia’s Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense.” ‘
This attitude is not compatible with civilised society.
hey Jack, long time no see.. =)
i see here you’ve got a new discussion partner. I’m jealous mate.. hehehe..
anyway, about your last posting, I just want to comment that all hadist should not just be taken literally without any further consideration. when one takes hadist literally without trying to unveil the meaning behind them, it’s like reading and trying to interprete “the Republic” from Plato without any teacher who guides you (I think the republic is a really difficult text to understand!). eversince there is no limit of interpretation, one clearly has to define things and a teacher is needed to define and to guide, ofcourse what I meant here is not in such indoctrination way but in a open and debatable atmosphere.
And i tell you what, learning something new without proper guidance is to some extent quite dangerous. I’ve been for the past years trying to learn (and perhaps adapting it into my daily life) about Buddhism and combining it with some other form of spiritualism (sufiism) by reading from books and discussion with some friends whom i know competent in such matters. And i personally think it was a rather difficult process because i kept misjudging and misinterpreting many things along the way. so I ask myself why. And I still haven’t found the logical explanation for that. all i know is I need someone who has more experience in this thing, the one who can lead me and show me the path. yet I haven’t found what I’m looking for..
from my previous knowledge about Islam (I have rather lost most of them from my memory whether by nature or deliberately =)) there are two distinctions of hadist, as far as i can recall. whether you’ve known it or not I’m still going to mention it here. first one is “strong hadist” and the other one is “weak hadist” (pardon my poor translation!) the difference between those two is the number of witness who were witnessing what happened when Muhammad did or said things (or even neither of them). So, for instance, tis a weak one when witnessed only by one person, and strong one when witnessed by two or more persons, and so on and so forth. ok, I’m not going to the detail because I think I have inadequate knowledge to tell you such things.
what I’m trying to mention is (and I’m not being a relativist like you accused, Jack! oh btw, it was a low blow mate!!) one has to be more careful when quoting something, especially in public sphere or for public consumption. i mean, I’m convinced that you have learnt and read a lot about Islam, which I think is a good thing to do. however, to emphasize such conclusion about Islam just by reading a translation version of The Koran or Hadist is somehow a wee bit controversial IMHO. i know and i witness it myself how poor the treatment of Muslims to women in some countries. But it doesn’t mean one can generalise things as they appear. comprehensive is the key word. and i do think every generalisation is dangerous! but what can we do? I don’t think I can’t really help it, neither can you, right?
Plus the fact that the whole media hypes about Islam’s image somewhat reaffirm that Islam is identical with violence. (oh well, it’s their stupidity anyway to react in such ways! lol)
Btw, i do agree of what you said about freedom of speech. you should actually say it to Danish who published Muhammad’s depiction.. =)
oh last but not least, Nietzsche was one of my favourite author but I think I am not competent enough to answer your enquiry.. =)
ps: well-said mate! I wanted actually to post a comment to 1ndra’s postings but you just simply took words right out my mouth..
hey, i read it as well in the Guardian.. unbelieveable, huh?
And one thing about 4 witness, it’s not a rape case but an accuse to a “selingkuh” case. Selingkuh is a case of a disloyality that s/he is sleeping with other person, accusing “selingkuh” need 4 witness.
Here in Indonesia, a rape case is simple, a victim report her case, then the case is being processed with laws, no need 4 witness, as that is for “selingkuh” case.
And about jilbab, I’ve stated above, it’s the Islam identity, the real clothing. Not an identity of morality.
Wearing a jilbab is far away respectfull than using a tank top or similar else (A minimalist).
What do you like to see, a woman in minimalist or a woman in full dress? I prefer the last than the first who show their…freely to men’s eye and that make men’s passion build up.
Now I want to know your own perspective Jack, yours, not just from someone else and the other from your religious perspective.
And for the one who said Islam treat women poorly then you dont know Islam closely enough )
Women 3 times must be respected than men.
Women could easily get in to heaven than men.
Women is the foundation of good country.
Women’s (Mothers) pray very powerful.
And much more”¦
If only they know it”¦
Gil – I’m sure that many Muslims do not live by certain of the Hadiths, I see this in the UK, so you are totally right to remind me about the dangers of generalisation. Considering the content of some of them, such as the one I quoted, thank goodness many Muslims follow their instincts as to how they should treat their fellow human beings! Unfortunately laws such as the rape law in Pakistan show the way that some Islamic countries discriminate against women. Many women are in jail in Pakistan purely because they have been raped. There was a case in Nigeria where under Sharia law a woman was going to be stoned for adultery or fornication(which she couldn’t deny as she was pregnant). However the father because he swore he was not the father (why not use DNA evidence?) was spared any punishment.
The veil – discrimination against women. Islamic divorce laws – discriminate against women.
If 1ndra can make any persuasive arguments that women are truly respected in Islam he should make them. Respect does not mean the option to cover up and have as many babies as possible whilst being “protected” by her husband BTW – thats like being a prize animal instead of a human being. If 1ndra can find something that says women in Pakistan don’t need to find 4 witnesses to prove they were raped rather than committing adultery, please post it.
1ndra, there are many references on the internet to the Hudood laws of Pakistan, for example here: khaleejtimes
“Since Pakistan adopted Islamic law in 1979, a woman must produce four Muslim witnesses to prove she is the victim of a rape. A woman who claims she was raped but fails to prove her charges can then be arrested and convicted of adultery or for having sex outside marriage.
Under the proposed amendments, the person who accuses a woman of committing adultery (or has sex outside of marriage) will have to come up with four witnesses” in a common law court, RafI said.”
for 1ndra, first of all, you took things too personally and secondly, you don’t have to be so defensive if you think you believe on the right thing. you know, that is exactly the problem of this world: the religioust is so fanatic about what they believe and the scientist always hesitates. it’s a healthy thing every now and then to put a big question mark on the things you have long taken for granted.
anyway, it would have been a splendid thing if these things you mentioned about women are implemented in daily life. But, I’m afraid I have to disappoint you by saying they are slightly naive and rather utopia ideas. Such things rarely exist. I’ve seen how men in Turkish community in Germany treats the women, and I don’t think what you mentioned about how women should be treated relevant with what i’ve seen. somehow implementation and theory never go together! I don’t know why. And btw, please do read carefully.. i quote again things i wrote from my previous post:
i know and i witness it myself how poor the treatment of Muslims to women in some countries.
. It’s the people 1ndra. Not the religion!
and please read my previous posts 1ndra. i emphasize that i know nothing about a lot of things, and that perhaps includes my knowledge about Islam. i might only know a little in comparison with your knowledge about Islam. so, I’m here to learn and one of the most effective way of learning that i know is to question things and challenge them.
so, yes, please tell me more about the practice of Islam in Indonesia, 1ndra. something that i can make sense of. I am more than pleased to hear that..
Thanks Gil, yes I’m maybe I’m too defensive…
Firstly, sorry for my bad English…
In An Nisa’, it stated that a man is a leader, protector, the one who responsible for giving “nafkah” (All household need). Then it’s the woman responbility to obedient.
If a husband couldnt follow his responbility, then the wife have rights to take this matter to a judge/court.
In Rasulullah words, stated : “A woman complained to Rasulullah saw that his husband hit her. Then Rasulullah saw spoke : “He will be senteced qisas*”.
*Qisas is a punishment in the same weight.
About zina, stated in An Nur that man and woman got the same punishment.
Still in An Nur, people who accused a good woman for zina need at least 4 witnesses, failure to do that then people who accused her will be heavy punished (e,g whipped for 80 times) and other people should not take their witnesses in other cases forever, and still in “akhirat” they will get big “azab”, except they do “taubat” but the punishment still count.
There’re too much to be written, if you want to study much more, you can take Koran and Hadits, and their “tafsir”/exegenesis.
Those are laws, so if you found other Islam people doing the wrong things, now you know that they are wrong. They dont take their code in their attitude and living.
In Indonesia, well, a man and woman have equal rights but they do have different tasks as their nature.
In some cases, we are here different, Indonesia consists so many culture, I cant describe as only one (Generalization).
But the law and Koran, still the same one.
Some people take their code deeply and other arent and even left behind.
If I say, well our family is happy with our Islamic code because we used that in real life, but some people arent happy because they left/forget the code.
Some family happy with the balance life stated in the Koran (Men take their role and women too) BUT some family get divorced because they dont (Men take their role and women take men role, if I say in yin yang : There are no double yin or double yang in one circle)
So this is the matter of people and might be in other countries.
I read about a programme on Qatar TV about how to beat your wife. Very worrying. In the UK there is a problem with so-called “honour killings” as well.
I find some Muslims seem to believe all Western women let it “all hang out” – actually most women in the UK dress “modestly”. They don’t wear Islamic dress but they are not showing large amounts of flesh eg cleavage. There was a survey put to people in the UK and they found the attitudes of Muslims and non-Muslims on issues of dress and morality remarkably similar – I can find it for you if you want (the results were published in the London Times).
Islam indeed takes care of women. According to Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali here in Australia, it even looks after their safety. So long as they are “in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty”.
Should they dare to wear makeup and a short skirt, he seems to think they are “uncovered meat” and Islamic men can rape with impunity.
He even said: “If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.”
A class act, and a true ambassador for Islam!
Quote from the Koran: ‘Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.’ (Q 4:34)
“Men are leaders for women, because Allah has made the one superior (Men) to the other (Women)”
-> Men are born to be leaders, they are created with logical “to think as complex as possible” nature, right?
“and because they spend their wealth to maintain them”
-> Men do HAVE RESPONBILITY to give and make their wife and family live in prosperity.
Yes, and the exegenesis, I’ve wrote above :
“In An Nisa’, it stated that a man is a leader, protector, the one who responsible for giving “nafkah” (All household need). Then it’s the woman responbility to obedient.
If a husband couldnt follow his responbility, then the wife have rights to take this matter to a judge/court.”
I will post a more extended quote plus the comments of an Iranian cleric (from Western Resistance):
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.” (Dawood’s translation)
In Iran, states AKI, Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi has issued a fatwa, in which he says it is lawful for a man to hit his disobedient wife.
These kind of statements highlight the need for the niqab, burqa or chador – to hide the bruises.
Jack Hawkins: if God, the Ruler of the universe, the creator of mankind said that men are superior than women, then who are we to deny it? did we created ourselves so that we know our strengths and weaknesess? was it not He who created all of us? He best knows our trait’s and properties.
that superiority was not meant so men can subjugate women, but so we can help each other. so that men an women will serve their different functions, and complete each other. and off course Islam will look bad if we use modern human rights as a standard, because the two aren’t compatible with each other. but then again, human rights are made by men, and religion is established by God. do you think that humans are wiser than God?
So I guess Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi is darn wrong to issue the fatwa then
Hassan, you have just completely missed the point!!!
BUT proved my point beautifully along the way. At last a Muslim who admit’s that Islam and Muslims don’t respect women as equal to men.
and of course as we all realise human rights are not compatible with Islam – again nothing unexpected there!!!
Religion is established by God. Er which religion Hassan? Islam was established by Mohammed, as you may remember. BIG difference.
I think humans are wiser than Mohammed – that’s the only contention I make.
Jack – the dude never admitted it, he unconsciously confirmed it )
You misinterpret one thing, hit here mean a soft, light tap in the back that wont hurt at all, even a light tap at the head is forbidden.
Not like a big head uppercut like men each others always do.
Hey read at the hadist I’ve wrote above :
In Rasulullah words, stated : “A woman complained to Rasulullah saw that his husband hit her. Then Rasulullah saw spoke : “He will be senteced qisas*”.
*Qisas is a punishment in the same weight.
Well that’s highly debatable 1ndra – the word does not mean “tap” according to the translations I’ve seen at all. If it didn’t hurt how would it be a punishment? I guess we need to watch that Qatar TV programme to get the optimum technique.
No it didn’t a punishment, it a warning, you know the difference.
And Muhammad saw have said it, a real hurting hit can be qisas-ed
Well, you know real hits in men (Fight) and in a couple or brother sister (Lovely hit)”¦
Eg, kitten scratch, clawing and bite each other, but why it didnt hurt each other?
Hmm, honestly I never knew of a hit that is “lovely” – how noble the intention is, a hit is a hit, and it is painful.
Then your hit is always set on violence, dont you?
I know “beauty is relative”"¦.,
but “ugliness is absolute” and yuzril is ugly
I’m the eldest, the only one son, I respect, protect, help and teach my young sisters and sure, my mother. I never hurt them.
indra what you think is respect and protection is in fact control and coercion, if you follow the lead of most Muslim men
Law is control, morale is control. That keep us walk in the right path. They are needed.
Government have people, government lead, government protect, government respect. Why every government have laws and jails at the same time? Coercion to laws?
If everybody take their own action, no laws, then there are chaos, anarchy.
Another example, just imagine, if you are a parent, what’s gonna be if you dont take your responbilities and let your childs grow up theirselves?
Well Islam is certainly about control – to the same degree as Big Brother (or more). Who’s to say what’s right or wrong 1ndra – some guy in 7th century Saudi Arabia with documented hallucinations? I think not!