Quran & Hadith

Sep 8th, 2006, in News, by

The validity or otherwise of the hadith tradition and its relationship to the Quran and how Muslims understand their faith.

This post has been created due to the female circumcision thread having gone substantially off-topic. Hopefully, within the spirit of the site, commenters can make some reference to the situation in Indonesia and within Indonesian Muslim organisations such as NU, etc, vis-a-vis their understanding of the hadith tradition.


212 Comments on “Quran & Hadith”

  1. avatar Barry Prima says:

    It is becoming apparent that every time your faced with a question you do a quick google and find something to cut and paste to back your argument. (you did not produce sources earlier and were even childish enough to say `why would i want to share my sources with you’. However a few hours later we get this….(hidden meaning of your first phrase :i havent ,managed to find an answer in google yet).

    You really have no inherent understanding of din which allows you to speak with any degree of flexibility or independence.

    Can i ask How much do you know about This Dr Aisha Musa..she could simply be another orientalist…she is a western educated one ,who possibly only wants to push a version of Islam based on western notions of religous acceptability..ie one in which relgion becomes sidelined to the private domain of individuals as a belief system(which you have said yourself repeatedly ,that is all islam is).The word Din is not the same as religion(Mazhab)….it is a complete way of life..,,iman is not belief either …it is something much deeper than that

    Is it her scholarship you have used to reach you conclusions? Is it her scholarship (or lack of it) that you copied and pasted on many occasions earlier to show the hadith you claimed were nonsense ..i would very much doubt it if she would make such silly mistakes,that even someone like me who doesnt know much about hadith could pick up…..that is not the reasoning an academic or scholar would use..only half educated hot heads..So please tell me now those copy and paste,who were they from ??

    Now your claims have been seriously questioned you think you can get out of it ,just by citing an academic figure, that you just discovered via a google???

    In any case why would she be considered superior to the hundreds of years of Muslim scholarship carried out by people whose personal lifes and charecters were known to the Islamic public and who lived and breathed Islam in an atmosphere where relgion was the dominating theme in the lives of the public?
    Language is also susceptible to changes in meaning in the minds of different generations, the 21th century is a very late stage to try and establish what people associated with certain words and ideas 1400 years ago….the meaning and the world in which those meanings were formed can only be understood by people who have a living and generationa link with people from that era..Knowledge of the divine is passed from person to person via barakah..it is not gleamed from a one dimensional factual look at data…

    I am willing to acknowledge there might be some value (not absolute value ) to quran only movement….but certainly not in the extreme form you have presented and especially not with its hidden agenda which seeks to reduce religion to a sideline in the lives of men.

  2. If you are going to discuss me and my work, you may wish to read my work. My book, Hadith as Scripture: Discussions on the Authority of Prophetic Traditions in Islam, explores the earliest extant discussions on the authority of the Hadith in Islam and compares them with contemporary debates. These lively and often polemical debates are mostly popular discussions in which Muslims from different backgrounds and cultures participate–making this topic relevant to Muslims in their daily lives, as well as a question of academic interest. This is the first study to take into account both the earliest and most recent discussions of the oral tradition of the prophet Muhammad. The book also includes the first Western language translation of al-Shafi’i’s Kitab Jima’ al-‘Ilm, which articulates arguments that were critical in establishing the position of the Hadith in mainstream Islam.

  3. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum
    Mbak Aisha

    Don’t worry too much what Barry wrote. In one of his earlier posting, he mentioned that sex with pre-teen children is sanctioned in Islam because Allah sanctioned it, so it must be good. We do not want this wild bule here.

    ps. where is your hijab?

    Wasalam.

  4. avatar diego says:

    ps. where is your hijab?

    Ha ha ha.

  5. avatar Aisha Y. Musa says:

    Wa alaikum salaam,

    Although my comment was in response to Barry\’s message, it was intended to be general. It is always best to have actually read the work one wishes to discuss.

    Ma’ salama

  6. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum Sister Aisha,

    I understand your position, but as a muslimah without hijab, one cannot be taken seriously.

    Wasalam.

  7. avatar schmerly says:

    @AAB..

    Don’t worry too much what Barry wrote. In one of his earlier posting, he mentioned that sex with pre-teen children is sanctioned in Islam because Allah sanctioned it, so it must be good. We do not want this wild bule here.

    When are you going to stop being such a suck up?

    Assalamualaikum

    By the way we don’t need this crap, this is an English speaking blog, so speak English!! we don’t need this phoney Arabic garbage.

  8. avatar diego says:

    Shalom aleichem….

    Well, that’s what the jews would say when they greet their kinds. Hmm… sounds like muslims to me.

    And also: “that british guy is such a goykopf… ha ha ha”. Hmm… sounds like muslims to me (just replace goy with kafir).

  9. avatar schmerly says:

    @ Assmads Bitch..

    I understand your position, but as a muslimah without hijab, one cannot be taken seriously.

    What an insulting MCP= male chauvinist pig you are.

  10. avatar Idris Wade says:

    Hello and peace to you all

    This life in simple yet we humans make it difficult, the Quran is the last guide from our creator, all we need to do is either study Arabic which must be done away from any particular school of thought or ensure our understanding of its message in our own mother tongue and then implement the Qurans teachings, we do not add anything that does not conform with it, simple.

    Culture of your place of birth will always intermingal with any faith whether it be dress, food, language etc, the Quran has certain guidelines to follow which are simple and easy to understand in any language. It does not ask me to grow a beard the length of my fist nor does it ask me to wear a turban or similar. If one wishes to do so the so be it. All I can say is that from my 19 years of being a Muslim the Quran tells us not to add anything to its message and Allah specifically warns Muhammad and of this danger (see 69:41-46), woe to those to add anything that does not conform to Allah’s message.

    The split from Quran to other sources came at an early stage of Islam, those who today that practise from these sources are not wrong nor right because that is all they know and have been taught. I myself studied the 3 Abrahamic faith books and converted to Islam when I was 18 and then soon after, unfortuantely, received many attempted hijackings from various groups and schools of thought. Each one slagging off the other, this is not Islam it is humans trying to enforce their own whims and desires onto others which also breaks Allah code of conduct for us.

    It is only those who are desperate for power, money and ownership of land that have become lost in the wilderness of this Earth. Unfortunately this is the status of nearly every state leader on this planet.

    I must say, please do not belittle one another because of your different beliefs but discuss and agree on the common points of the Quran and the rest will follow, as Allah says, the Quran is clear guide to those who believe but also put it into practise.

  11. avatar Barry Prima says:

    In one of his earlier posting, he mentioned that sex with pre-teen children is sanctioned in Islam because Allah sanctioned it, so it must be good.

    Sorry AAB, you are the one with the wild imagination, i never said such a thing. Also Allah never said it either, its certainly not in the Quran.

    By the way we don’t need this crap, this is an English speaking blog, so speak English!! we don’t need this phoney Arabic garbage.

    This is a blog about Indonesia a country in which many of the words concepts and beliefs are Arab Influenced.
    If you don’t like the threads where people discuss things other than those that interest you, i suggest you don’t read them, ignore them or start your own Forum/ blog where you can continue to revel in your ignorance and dictate what people can’t and can discuss. From you’re insistent attempts to drag every discussion down to your gutter level i am guessing you are an aussie of bogan ancestry?

    Diego:Pancasila is waayyy better than those semitic mumbo jumbos, don’t you think?

    Pancasila concept of unity through diversity is Semitic mumbo jumbo, its in the Quran. Also if you read the Indonesian constitution a very large number of words are of Arabic origin.

    I find your ramblings rather yawn inducing, so normally I don’t bother to read your reams of bumptious diatribe

    I DONT WRITE THEM FOR YOUR BENEFIT.

    MBalk Musa: How nice of you to drop in .Please read my post. I did not cite your work, someone else did , and i doubt the one citing you has ever read your work.(which was my point) I merely raised some questions, to which of course you are the perfect person to respond.
    I for one would be very interested to hear what you have to say on the matter as you surely can’t do worse job than Khafi, at least you speak Arabic. As i said i am sure you will not make the ridiculous errors that Khafi keeps making:
    If you are going to discuss me and my work, you may wish to read my work.
    If you send me a free copy i would take the time out to read it ,but otherwise no, unless you take this opportunity to convince us its worth buying(your chance to plug)
    Also i am not in the habit of discussing works i have not read, cannot read or understand (that’s what Khafi does). I was merely asking him to tell me what your book was about, what your background was and the reason why he cited you as an authority. From his non response i am guessing he has not read your book either and is thus doing you a big disservice.

    You might want to send him a free copy though, he certainly needs better arguments.

  12. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:

    This is a blog about Indonesia a country in which many of the words concepts and beliefs are Arab Influenced.

    I am an indonesian, asli.
    Jus sanguinis,
    Jus soli.

    I reject YOUR generalization.

    Pancasila concept of unity through diversity is Semitic mumbo jumbo, its in the Quran.

    WHATTT??? where in Quran were the words: “bhinneka tunggal ika” ?????

    Are you indonesian?
    Everybody knows its from Mpu Tantular’s Kakawin Sutasoma. its a Hindu-Buddhist concept.

    Dude, if you really are indonesian, go back to SD! Please.

    (and why on earth are you using 80s cheesy-silat-movie stars name?)

  13. avatar DumadiSatrio says:

    @Barry Prima:
    I am afraid that Mohammed Khafi is the future of islam, because hadith does more damage to Islam then it helps.

    I will give you an example:

    The following is from Al-Quran 31:29

    Don’t you see that Allah merges night into day and he merges day into night and he has subjected the sun, and the moon each running its course for a term appointed. And Allah is aware of what you do.

    On its own, the verse is left relatively open for the reader to ponder in a larger context.
    However, If you then look to the hadith for the answer you will find the following:

    Hadith about meaning of Al-Quran 31:29: Sahih Bukhari 4:54:421
    Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’”

    Do you see what has happened? It just pulled the legs out, and turned it into nonsense.
    According to this hadith; The Quran says that the Sun travels(?) each night to Allah’s throne….then asks permission(?how does a ball of exploding Hydrogen ask permission?)… Then Allah will giver permission to the sun and it will rise again, till the day of Judgement.
    Think about that…The sun does not go anywhere (it only appears to “set” relative to an observer)….when It is setting in Jakarta, it is in the noon sky in Greece, and rising in New York.
    This Hadith turns the Quran into nonsense. Think about that.
    If anything, hadith is a ball and chain around the Quran’s neck.

  14. avatar Barry Prima says:

    I reject YOUR generalization.

    That’s not the point, a very large and significant number of people do conform to that `generalisation’,in fact that is why it can be called a generalization.

    I am an indonesian, asli.
    theres a good chance you have indian, chinese or yes even arab blood.

    WHATTT??? where in Quran were the words:

    Even I know the quran was not revelaed in Indonesian, I’m talking about the concept.Im not saying the concept is unique to the quran, but it is engrained within certain of its ayats.The pancasila was written in the 20th century,not the 15th (after hundreds of years of islamic influence),so it cannot be solely attributed to the Kakawin Sutasoma.Besides the quran is alot older than said book and said the same thing much earlier, and even you couldnt argue against the fact that it is more influential.
    Maybe i overstated, but the point i was trying to make was that `semitic jumbo mumbo’ has lot going for it.

    (and why on earth are you using 80s cheesy-silat-movie stars name?)

    It was the first thing that popped into my head..i didnt think i would be posting much anyway.I should change the name though,just in case barry actually comes across what i wrote in his name .(maaf ya).I should post as Jaka sombong instead?

    I am afraid that Mohammed Khafi is the future of islam, because hadith does more damage to Islam then it helps.

    Not whilst I’m around…haha…(just kidding). The anti hadith movement is the future the christian missionaries want for Islam, but we won’t have it.
    Anyway I’ve had this discussion with Khafi himself, no need to repeat. If you are serious I can try to explain why this hadith can make sense (it’s symbolic).
    There are verses in the quran that are just as absurd as this hadith but as the quran itself says, so of its verses are symbolic, some literal, same is true of the hadith.
    It’s unfair to dismiss something as ridiculous when you have made no effort to study it seriously or see the real meaning behind it.

  15. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Barry Prima,

    That’s not the point, a very large and significant number of people do conform to that `generalisation’,in fact that is why it can be called a generalization.

    Errrr … not too long ago, you were offended big time by being labelled as bule traitor by FMF. Why the double standard?

    I am an indonesian, asli.
    theres a good chance you have indian, chinese or yes even arab blood.

    If you live in Indonesia and have tan brown skin like us, regardless of your background as a Whitey punk rocker (your own admission), you will be accepted as orang asli. Unfortunately youre not. Trying to blend in by mualaffing doesn’t work, I am afraid.

    Even i know the quran was not revelaed in Indonesian,im talking about the concept.Im not saying the concept is unique to the quran, but it is engrained within certain of its ayats…..

    Your ignorance of Javanese culture shows. Here is a crash course:

    Pancasila was never a concept to begin with because an egalitary society existed in the Java since time immemorial. Our founding fathers were visionaries, and it was adopted as state ideology to prevent future conflict between Muslims, nationalists and Christians.

    Pancasila was not based on Hindu philosophy nor from some ayats, it is Javanism.

    Here is a clear example – In the west, you have singing competition like the Australian or American Idol. In the nusantara, singing was never a concept. Every pribumi is musical. You go ask 100 pribumis, I can bet each and everyone can play at least a musical instrument.

    …I should change the name though,just in case barry actually comes across what i wrote in his name .(maaf ya)…

    Please do. It is un-Indonesian to use someone else’s name and spew rubbish as if authorised by the real Barry Prima.

    Not whilst im around…haha…(just kidding).The anti hadith movement is the future the chrisitan missionaries want for Islam,but we wont have it.
    Anyway ive had this discussion with Khafi himself,no need to repeat.If you are serious i can try to explain why this hadith can make sense(its symbolic)..
    ….

    Mas Khafi and Mr TTT are pribumis. I have several run-ins with them. As in most close knitted family, there is always a conflict in thought. But as fellow Indonesian, I may not agree with their interpretations, but they are afterall my brothers in arms. They ain’t too heavy. I am afraid you are excluded until you revert back to your parents’ religion – Christianity.

  16. avatar Burung Koel says:

    In the west, you have singing competition like the Australian or American Idol. In the nusantara, singing was never a concept. Every pribumi is musical. You go ask 100 pribumis, I can bet each and everyone can play at least a musical instrument.

    That’s absolutely true. I’ve seen it myself. Where else in the world can you see karaoke being done by people who are stone cold sober?

    And they’re not hung up on Western ideas like talent, either.

  17. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Burung Koel

    I sense jealousy in your comment. Btw can you sing?

  18. avatar Burung Koel says:

    I sense jealousy in your comment. Btw can you sing?

    I used to sing in the shower until the mirror broke.

  19. avatar Barry prima says:

    Errrr … not too long ago, you were offended big time by being labelled as bule traitor by FMF. Why the double standard?

    I am never offended by anything you say. If you are trying to offend me, you would have to actually meet me first and then say bad things to my face. How about it? (meeting me for a halal drink!)

    Unfortunately youre not. Trying to blend in by mualaffing doesn’t work, I am afraid

    If I was trying to blend in with the you, khaf etc, I think it would make better sense to agree with you all the time.

    You go ask 100 pribumis, I can bet each and everyone can play at least a musical instrument.

    I know enough Pribumi to know that is a wild exaggeration, having said that a fair number of them do, especially as i use too move in musical circles alot.

    it is Javanism.

    Please define exactly what you mean by that,and how it is independent of islamic,hindu and buddhist mumbo jumbo…

    Happy now aab?Go and quarrel with Schemerly instead,i dont have time for childish tit for tat.

  20. avatar Elijah says:

    Dr. Kassim Ahmad wrote:

    The minds of Muslims have been dead for a thousand years, killed by these false hadith.

    I really doubt whether all the sceintists who were responsible for the foundations of modern science like Al-Khwarizmi the founder of Algebra was a Munkirus Sunnah.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

    The statement is a typical feature of emotionalism which characterisez the followers of all innovators in Islam like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Ghulam Ahmad Parvez and Rashad Khalifah of the past two centuries when the tantacles of colonialism have changed the very way of our thinking. Every New Thing and Innovation in Islam of Muhammad (saws) and Sahaabah (raa) is Misguidance, and Every Misguidance would lead To Hellfire.

    Dr. Abdus Salaam Nobel Prize Winner was a Ghulam Ahmadi, the follower of a person Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed to be a Prophet after Muhammad (saws). All Ghulam Ahmadis base their Innovated Meanings in Quran like the followers of Parvez.
    The Islam of Muhammad (saws) and Sahaaba(raa) is indestructible till the Last Day.
    May I die on it.

  21. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Brother Elijah said:

    The Islam of Muhammad (saws) and Sahaaba(raa) is indestructible till the Last Day.

    But that is not the Islam that Allah asks us to follow is it?

    “He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: “You shall uphold this one
    religion, and do not divide it.”
    42:13

    If the religion Allah decrees is the same as he has always decreed, why do you think you need the fabrications and stories of the Sahaaba to fullfill it?

    You have decried innovation in your comments above, but then follow the innovation that the Sunnah and Hadith writers have given you?

    Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. 16:123

    If the deen of Nabi Ibrahim was perfect enough for Allah to inspire the The Prophet to follow, why does it need the innovation of Sunnah and Hadith?

    Peace

  22. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Brother Elijah said:

    The Islam of Muhammad (saws) and Sahaaba(raa) is indestructible till the Last Day.
    May I die on it.

    There is an air of eeriness in you. Your talking is tough, your stance is uncompromising.
    You seem to be obsessed with the afterlife. Previous post, you had warned of dire consequences (over your life, I presume) to people whom you ‘judged’ to derogate your beloved prophet.

    Brother, you represent the face of Islam that is (fortunately) incompatible to Javanese version.

    Peace.

  23. avatar Elijah says:

    Muhammad Khafi

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Brother,

    I ruined my semester with a record low gpa which jumped from 3.03/4 to 2.42/4, but I hope a compensation from Allah for this.

    You said:

    But that is not the Islam that Allah asks us to follow is it?

    “He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: “You shall uphold this one
    religion, and do not divide it.” 42:13

    The pagans of Mecca were also the inheritors of Nabi Ibraheem as and claimed to be the true followers of Nabi Ibraheem as . Jews and Christians also claim to be the true followers of Moses as and Jesus as.

    why does it need the innovation of Sunnah and Hadith?

    It may be an innovation for you like Quran is an innovation for the Kuffar. Your criticism of Sunnah is similar to the criticism of Quran by the Kuffar.

    Allah will protect the words and meanings of Quran, words and meanings of Uswatun Hasanah in the hearts and actions of true Muminoon till the last day.

  24. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Waalaikum Salaam Brother Elijah,

    Iblis has has managed to lead astray those who were given Taurat, by making them believe that they should follow Talmud. He has lead astray those who were given the verbal message of Injeel, by making them follow The New Testament and in some cases The Book of Mormon. What makes you so sure that he has not lead astray those given Al Quran by making them believe Sunnah and Hadith?

    All through history, Prophets have brought the Words of Allah, but those words have been corrupted by men. I choose to believe the Words of Allah in Al Quran, the one message that Allah has promised to protect.

    As difficult as it is for you to believe, Allah says Al Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed, I choose to believe his word, and have decided that I need nothing more for guidance.

    Study hard Brother Elijah, trust in the words of Allah and not of men, and Allah will repay you and guide you.

    Peace

  25. avatar Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Khafi

    I would complete my answer in parts due to shortage of time.

    Part 1

    Every single objection on Quran as well as Sunnah can be systematically and logically refuted.

    Most of the people who would read our comments are dangerously ignorant of both Quran and Sunnah. Most of the Muslims today don’t even know the names of even one hundred Sahaabah radi Allahu anhum (Companions of Muhammad sall Allahu alaihi wa sallam) despite there are more than one hundred thousand of them, Who:

    1.Who are the people who taught Islam to humanity
    2.Who are the people who, despite being eloquent masters of Arabic language took 23 years to learn Quran and Sunnah.
    3.Who are the people who were chosen by Allah to become the companions of Allah’s Messenger saaws.
    4. Who gaurded the Book of Allah and Sunnah of Muhammad saaws at the cost of their precious blood

    Sahih Muslim
    (Kitab Al-Fada’il Al-Sahabah)
    The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them)
    Book 031, Number 5913:
    Some people came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said to him: Send with us some men who may teach us the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Accordingly, he sent seventy men from the Ansar. They were called the Reciters and among them was my maternal uncle. Haram. They used to recite the Qur’an, discuss and ponder over its meaning at night. In the day they brought water and poured it (in pitchers) in the mosque, collected wood and sold it, and with the sale proceeds bought food for the people of the Suffa and the needy. The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) sent the Reciters with these people, but these (treacherous people) fell upon them and killed thern before they reached their destination (While dying), they said: O Allah, convey from us the news to our Prophet that we have met Thee (in a way) that we are pleased with Thee and Thou art pleased with us. (The narrator said): A man attacked Haram (maternal uncle of Anas) ) from behind and smote him with a spear which pierced him. (While dying), Haram said: By the Lord of the Ka’ba, I have met with success. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to his Companions: Your brethren have been slain grid they were saying: O Allah, convey from us to our Prophet the news that we have met Thee in a way that we are pleased with Thee and Thou art pleased with us.

    5.Who were the actual Ahlul Quran:The People of Quran and the actual Ahlus Sunnah:The People of Sunnah.
    6.Who understood and acted on Quran and Sunnah better than eveyone else
    7.About whom Allah Himself testified that He is pleased with them
    So Allah says in
    Surah Al-Bayyinah
    Ayat 8
    Allah is well pleased with them, and they with Himhttp://honorablequran.com/98.htm

    8. Who listened and obeyed everything they heard from Allah’s Rasool sall Alaahu alaihi wa sallam.

    So Allah says in:
    Surah An-Noor
    Ayat 51
    The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, “We hear and we obey”: it is such as these that will attain felicity.

    Hence, I would not be amazed if the Fitna of denial of Sunnah gains hundreds or even thousands of followers from among secularly educated Muslims, when there are millions of followers of claimants of Nubuwwah (Prophethood) basing their interprations in the same Quran oft-quoted by you. Even Nobel prize winners in Physics. Prof Abdus Salam was a Ghulam Ahmadi, despite the fact that every claim of Nubuwwah after Muhammad evidently contradicts Quran as well as Sunnah.PhDs have little to do with Hidaayah.

    To know more about Ghulam Ahmadi apostates,
    alhafeez.org/rashid

    Analyze this statement

    Encouraged by the work of prominent, non-Muslim western scholars have also questioned the authenticity of hadiths on the same basis, those who advocate following the Qur’an alone assert that hadith should not be followed because they are late fabrications, with no connection to Muhammad.

    Their prominence isn’t a Daleel (Proof) in Islam.

    and contrast it with what Allah says in
    Surah Al-Hujuraat
    Ayat 6
    O ye who believe! If a Faasiq comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.
    http://honorablequran.com/49.htm

    If the word of a Faasiq isn’t acceptable, how come the word of a Kaafir.
    All the Shatimeen(those who abuse) of the Muhadditheen, whether Muslim or Kafir, would never be able to prove ever till Yaumul Qiyaamah, the Day of Resurrection, that any one of the Muhaddithin among Sahaaba radi Allaahu anhum(Companions of Allah’s Rasool sall Allaahu alaihi wa Sallam), Tabieen rahimahumullaah, Taba Tabieen rahimahumullaah, Aaimmatul Hadith rahimahumullaah was a Faasiq.

    Iblis has has managed to lead astray those who were given Taurat, by making them believe that they should follow Talmud.

    Musa alaihis salaam commanded to stone those to death who commit adultery but modern Jews don’t like it, because they treat their Hawaa, their Desire, as their God.

    Allah says in:
    Surah Al-Furqan
    Ayat 43
    Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own Hawaa (passion)Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?
    http://honorablequran.com/25.htm

    I would like to point out here that your comparison of Quran and Sunnah with Torah and Talmud is incorrect for the following reasons.

    1. Quran hasn’t altered, Torah has.
    2. Talmud isn’t the collection of the words and commands of Musa alaihis salaam.

    I would end with the following words of Allah’s Rasool sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam.

    Lan Tadilloo Maa Tamassaktum Bihima Kitaabullaahi Wa Sunnata Nabiyyihi
    As long as you hold fast to both the Book of Allah as well as Sunnah of His Nabi (sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) you would never go astray.

    I would like Khafi to present any Saheeh Hadith with such unequivocal assurance Lan Tadilloo “you would never go astray”

    The deniers of Sunnah rightly quote:
    Surah An-Noor
    Ayat 54
    Say: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger.s duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
    http://honorablequran.com/24.htm

    Man Ahabba Sunnatee Faqad Ahabbanee

    Who loves My Sunnah loves me, and who loves me is in My company in Paradise

    I cite this knowing fully well that Allah’s Rasool sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam
    said:

    Man Kaziba Alayya Muta’ammidan Falyatabawwa’a Maqadahu Minan Naar
    Who willingly ascribes a lie to me must assume his place in hellfire.

    The command of propagating the commands of Allah’s Rasool sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam is implicit in this saying.

    Khafi had previously said that Ittibaa(Obedience) of Rasool is the only the obedience of the Book of Allah, yet Allah clarifies this in Surah An-Nisaa ayat 80,
    Surah An-Nisaa
    80. He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

    81. They have “Obedience” on their lips; but when they leave thee, a section of them Meditate all night on things very different from what thou tellest them. But Allah records their nightly (plots): So keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah, and enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs.
    http://honorablequran.com/4.htm

    because
    1. in that case the special emphasis on Itaa’at of Rasool is not required, because that is understood when Allah says Ateeullaah(Obey Allah).
    2.no honest reader can deny the tone of clarification and emphasis in the words”He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah”.

    I would end with these words of Allah.
    142. Behold, their brother Salih said to them: “Will you not fear ((Allah))?

    143. “I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

    144. “So fear Allah, and obey me.

    145. “No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

    Surah Ash-Shua’raa
    http://honorablequran.com/26.htm

  26. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Walaikum Salaam Brother Elijah,

    You said:

    I would like to point out here that your comparison of Quran and Sunnah with Torah and Talmud is incorrect for the following reasons.

    1. Quran hasn’t altered, Torah has.
    2. Talmud isn’t the collection of the words and commands of Musa alaihis salaam.

    Allah repeatedly says that Quran is protected, in that you are correct, and it would appear that there have been changes made to Taurat over the years if we use Al Quran as the Furqan or “Criterion” on which to judge Taurat. However the Jews would probably disagree with your last statement that “Talmud isn’t the collection of the words and commands of Musa alaihis salaam”

    The Talmud is originally based on the oral law, which Orthodox Judaism maintains was revealed, in some form, together with the written law.

    Just like your Sunnah and Hadith. What may have started out as the words of Nabi Musa, has become corrupt and cannot be regarded in any way shape or form as Divine Revelation.

    Just as what you beleive was direct from the mouth of Nabi Mohammed, has also become corrupt, and contaminated by the thoughts and words of mere men.

    Peace

  27. avatar Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Brother Khafi

    It is sad that instead of refuting the primary content of my set of arguments, that is, the Ayaat of Quran, you are emphasizing on Torah and Talmud argument.

    Alyauma(Today)
    Akmaltu(I have completed)
    Lakum(For you)
    Deenakum(Your religion)
    Surah Al-Maaidah
    Ayat 3
    This day have I perfected your religion for you
    http://honorablequran.com/5.htm

    1.Islam according to Quran was completed within the lifetime of Allah’s Rasool (sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam), and it constituted Written Law of Quran and Oral Law of Sunnah, that’s why Sahaabah (radi Allaahu anhum) , Tabioon (rahimahumullaah), Taba Tabioon (rahimahumullaah) considered their codification essential. It was precisely what was the Law of the Khilaaphah in Madinah as well as Khilaaphah of Khulafaaur Raashideen.

    2.Codices may appeal to the masses owing to their lack of memory skills, yet those people who memorised more than six thousand Ayaat of Quran, how can each of them fail to manage to memorise exact words far smaller in number than Ayaat of Quran, while there were many of Sahaabah radi Allaahu anhum narrating as only one sentence? If you pass 23 years with a person , in order to recall his words you don’t need to write everything that he says. Writing is an additional task which was performed by some of them Abdullah bin Amr bin al-Aas (radi Allaahu anhu) and Abu Hurairah (radi Allaahu anhu).

    2. and it is only the Sahaabah radi Allaahu anhum who listened and obeyed everything Allah’s Rasool commanded, and that accordind to Quran is complete Islam,

    Surah An-Noor
    Ayat 51
    The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, “We hear and we obey”: it is such as these that will attain felicity.
    http://honorablequran.com/24.htm

    Did Sahaabah (radi Allaahu anhum) listen to Quran only?

  28. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Walaikum Salaam, Brother Elijah,

    I am not arguing that Allah perfected the Deen of Islam for the Arabs. I am arguing that the recollections of men are prone to corruption. That is why we have three versions of The Prophets last sermon, if the Sahaabah were so perfect and their recollections were not prone to corruption, how could this have happened? And if it happened with such an important event witnessed by thousands then what is preventing it happening with lesser events which were witnessed by only one person.

    Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so willed, they would not have done it: so leave them and what they forge.

    To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.

    Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

    The Word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

    Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.

    Thy Lord knoweth best who strayeth from His Way: He knoweth best those who are rightly guided. 6:113-117

    These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? 45:6

    In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe. 12:111

    Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. 31:6

    Peace

  29. avatar Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Brother Khafi

    If my reasoning based on Quran is flawed, you should point out where is the flaw?Dispute my reasoning based on the same Quran.

    As is the case with my debates with Ghulam Ahmadis, I never come up with any new, original and concrete argument other than the same flawed arguments given by Ghulam Ahmadi pioneers, when I searched the denial of Sunnah arguments on google, I found only a repitition of flawed arguments like the ‘Sunnah of Allah’ argument and ‘Deen of Nabi Ibraheem’ argument.

    You said:

    That is why we have three versions of The Prophets last sermon

    We don’t have. It’s a lie meant to mislead the Muslim Ummah which is dangerously ignorant of both Quran and Sunnah for the past few centuries.

    The burden of proof of Arabic text of three Saheeh Ahadith necessarily containing the words ‘I leave behind me’ and ‘you would never go astray’ with weblinks, lies on you.
    I have my proof of Saheeh Hadith satisfying all the following requirements of Shahaadat(Testimony) in Islam, and even demonstrably for the Kuffaar Orientalists. May Allah give me that much Ilm of Uloomut Tafseer and Uloomul Hadeeth.

    Criteria for the Evaluation of Isnad
    The unblemished and undisputed character of the narrator, called rawi, is the most important consideration for the acceptance of a hadith. As stated earlier, asma’ ar-rijal was developed to evaluate the credibility of narrators. The following are a few of the criteria utilized for this purpose:

    1. The name, nickname Kunyah, title, parentage and occupation of the narrator must be known.
    2. The original narrator must have stated that he heard the hadith directly from the Prophet.
    3. If a narrator referred his hadith to another narrator, the two must have lived in the same period and have had the possibility of meeting each other.
    4. At the time of hearing and transmitting the hadith, the narrator should have been physically and mentally capable of understanding and remembering it.
    5. The narrator should have been known as a pious and virtuous person.
    6. The narrator should not have been accused of having lied, given false evidence or committed a crime.
    7. The narrator should not have spoken against other reliable people.
    8. The narrator’s religious beliefs and practices should have been known to be correct.
    9. The narrator should not have carried out and practiced peculiar religious beliefs of his own.

    Criteria for the Evaluation of Matn
    1. The text should have been stated in plain and simple language.
    2. A text in non-Arabic or couched in indecent language was rejected.
    3. A text prescribing heavy punishment for minor sins or exceptionally large reward for small virtues was rejected.
    4. A text which referred to actions that should have been commonly known and practiced by others but were not known and practiced was rejected.
    5. A text contrary to the basic teachings of the Qur’an was rejected.
    (Hence, any alleged contardiction in Saheeh Hadith and Quran is a result of lack of understanding prevalent in Ummah)
    6. A text contrary to other ahadith was rejected.
    (Hence, as was once claimed by Ibn Khuzaima ra :
    Bring me any two Saheeh Ahadith with apparent disharmony, I would solve and explain it, implying that all Saheeh Ahadith are internally coherent, so, any alleged contardiction among Saheeh Ahadith is a result of lack of understanding prevalent in Ummah)
    7. A text contrary to basic reason, logic and the known principles of human society was rejected.( All alleged contradictions in matn can be rationally explained)
    8. A text inconsistent with historical facts was rejected.
    9. Extreme care was taken to ensure the text was the original narration of the Prophet and not the sense of what the narrator heard. The meaning of the hadith was accepted only when the narrator was well known for his piety and integrity of character.
    10. A text derogatory to the Prophet, members of his family or his companions was rejected.(If, what is not derogatory for Sahaabah (radi Allaahu anhum) to narrate cannot and should not be derogatory for anyone else)
    11. A text by an obscure narrator which was not known during the age of sahabah [the Prophet’s companions] or the tabi’een [those who inherited the knowledge of the sahabah] was rejected.

    Qaala Rasoolullaahi (sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam),
    Lan Tadilloo Maa Tamassaktum Bihima Kitaabullaahi Wa Sunnata Nabiyyihi
    As long as you hold fast to both the Book of Allah as well as Sunnah of His Nabi (sall Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) you would never go astray.

    These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? 45:6

    This Ayah proves that the word Hadith has been used by Allah to describe even Quran itself.

    Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

    Brother, follow complete Quran.

    Allah says in:
    Surah An-Nisaa
    Ayah 65
    But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith,

    until they make thee judge in all disputes between them

    , and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

    Don’t be like those, whose believe in parts of Quran and reject parts of Quran.
    Allah says in:
    Surah Al-Baqarah
    Ayah 85
    Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
    http://honorablequran.com/2.htm

  30. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Walaikum Salaam Brother Elijah:

    You said:

    We don’t have. It’s a lie meant to mislead the Muslim Ummah which is dangerously ignorant of both Quran and Sunnah for the past few centuries.

    When I said we have three versions of The Prophets last sermon.

    What was the lie Brother Elijah? Here are the sentences from the verses and their refernces:

    “I am leaving for you two things that you must uphold, the Quran and my Sunnah” (According to Muwatta 46/3).

    2) “I am leaving for you the Quran and my relatives (Ahl Al- Bayt)” (According to Muslim 44/4, Nu 2408; Ibn Hanbal 4/366; Darimi 23/1, Nu 3319).

    3) “I am leaving for you the Quran; you shall uphold it” (According to Muslim 15/19, Nu 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Nu 3074; Abu Dawud 11/56, Nu 1905).

    You have given Criteria for Evaluation of Isnad and Matn, which would cause many Sahih Hadith to be rejected, so why weren’t they rejected and why do they still figure in books of Hadith?

    You said:

    Brother, follow complete Quran.

    Allah says in:
    Surah An-Nisaa
    Ayah 65
    But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith,

    until they make thee judge in all disputes between them

    , and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

    My Brother Elijah, if The Prophet were standing in front of me I would have no problem following his every word, he after all only followed Al Quran.

    Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my own accord. I only follow that which is revealed unto me. Lo! If I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the Penalty of an awful Day. 10: 15

    Unfortunately it has been proven time, and time again, that the fabricators of Hadith did not simply follow Al Quran. It seems that the followers of Hadith don’t either. They don’t even follow their own Hadith:

    “The prophet said:’Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it” (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).

    “Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet” (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).

    Peace

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