RUU APP Stalled

Sep 4th, 2006, in News, by

The controversial anti-pornography bill has run into problems in the parliament.

The Rancangan Undang-Undang Anti-Pornografi dan Pornoaksi (RUU APP), or proposed law against pornography and indecency, was expected to have been passed into law by June or July of this year but it seems that there is no end in sight for deliberations on the bill. Agung Sasongko, vice chairman of the committee charged with the responsibility of reviewing the bill, and a member of the Partai Demokrasi Indonesia Perjuangan (PDIP), says that there are now two competing drafts of the bill.

One draft, the original one first proposed seven years ago, and containing a total of 97 articles, some of which are considered to be draconian and reminiscent of Islamic law, and the second, cut down to only 26 articles dealing only with the publication and distribution of pornographic materials, and not with public behaviour or dress, are in circulation with confusion reigning over which one is to be deliberated on. It appears that the aforesaid committee is split, rather intractably, over the matter.

Upon being informed of the problem House chairman Agung Laksono called the bickering heads of the committee to a meeting in an attempt to find a way out but to no avail. There is now no estimated date when the bill's review will be completed and when it will submitted to the parliament for a vote.


24 Comments on “RUU APP Stalled”

  1. avatar Oigal says:

    One can only hope the evil thing will be stalled for ever…Perhaps they can deliberate on environmental laws that should apply to Pollies the same as the rest of the world

  2. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    We already have anti pornography laws inplace, lets just enforce those! Why are these people wasting their time and our money on this sort of nonsense, when there are so many other more serious issues to be dealt with?

  3. avatar Hassan says:

    if that law is such a ‘nonsense’ then, why do you people waste your time on rejecting it?

  4. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    There is already an Anti Pornography Law in place in this country! This draft for a new law is so poorly defined and written, and so vague that it could be applied just at the discretion of the reviewing judges. As we all know very few of the judges in this country are immune to being paid for their decisions. The law also infringes on basic human rights for women, basically blaming them for mens lack of moral and sexual restraint.
    I don’t think anybody who comments here is pro pornograph, but I do think that they want more competent enforcement of existing laws, and more professionally drafted laws which are based on the needs of the country as a whole and not just one group. I think most people who reject it reject it because it is wasting the countries money and resources, when other more urgent matters could be resolved in parliament.

  5. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed khafi: “The law also infringes on basic human rights for women, basically blaming them for mens lack of moral and sexual restraint.”

    and what rights would that be? the rights to wear miniskirts? to wear sexy clothes?

    maybe we should stop blaming only the men for their lack of sexual restraint. maybe the women played a factor in raising the men’s libido. after all, when you place your salted fish (ikan asin!) in the open, don’t blame the cats who have the appetite when they steal them. it’s not the cats fault to have an appetite for those things, it’s just natural. blame the bloke who put it in the open.

    so put those salted fish in the food drawer! get my analogy??

  6. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    Are you suggesting that our men only have the morals and intellect of cats? That would explain a lot! Just to remind you we live in a pluralistic society, are you suggesting that those sectors of the community who have different views from you have to follow your ideas of public decency because you can’t control yourself.

    I guess your views of what a woman should be allowed to show are based on her aurat, well just for your information the Arabic word aurat means the external genitals, it is only the teachings which you follow which have perverted the word to mean everything apart from a womans hands and face!

    I guess you would want to blame women for being raped just like they do in Saudi Arabia:

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/04/25/imprisoned-and-deported-for-rape/

    Or maybe justify rape as a normal Muslim practice as this guy did recently are being found guilty of imprisoning and raping his Indonesian maid

    http://www.debbieschlussel.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1332

    I would at this time normally wish you salaams, but man ….. You need to go and look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what you see!

  7. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi: ahh, mr. enlightened. nope I’m not suggesting that men have the morals and intellect of a cat. then you’re not getting my analogy. for a liberal, you seems to interpret analogies like literals.

    it means that libido is something built in, a natural thing. some men can control their libido and some can’t. not every one of the 220 million Indonesian can control their libido, just watch ‘patroli’ or ‘buser’ or other such shows to see how many rapes happened every day. men with strong faith and spirituality (and highly enlightened like you maybe) are usually able to control their libido. but not all Indonesian are strong in faith, are they?

    so, mr. enlightened, i suggest that women share the burden of maintaining proper decency, to help the men in controlling their inner needs. difficult enough?? as for rights, I don’t believe the rights to express body parts is part of the Islamic teachings and way of live, I believe.

    btw, i note that you liberals have values and perspectives that resembles the westerners more than Muslims in the calibre of the sahabats, for example. why don’t you take a look at yourself in the mirror?

  8. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    I would much rather strive to strengthen the faith, spirituality and morality of the men and women, than deprive the women of their God given right to choose.

    I tried looking in the mirror, but all I saw was my reflection, I would rather reflect on my inner self, or the image that others have of me, to appraise my character.

    Salaams from Mr Enlightened 😉

  9. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi: and how would you do that? “strengthen the faith, spirituality and morality of the men and women”? by allienating yourself from the rest of Indonesia’s conservative Muslims by being a liberal? by converting all Indonesian Muslims into liberals? in what practical way can you help, other than refusing the RUU APP? it’s not the ideal solution, but the best we have thus far.

    what you just said “strengthen the faith, spirituality and morality of the men and women” is not an easy thing to do, Muslims had been doing that since the days of Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh). and following western values will not make the effort any easier.

    rights to choose.. i don’t believe the rights to express body parts is part of the Islamic teachings and way of live. or to choose to wear ‘inviting’ dresses for that matter.

  10. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    I believe that strengthening the faith, spirituality and morality of the men and women of Indonesia can only come by their returning to Gods Guiding Light. I feel sorry for you that you cannot see that what you follow are corruptions of his words, I don’t consider it Liberal in any way.

    Your statement that “Muslims had been doing that since the days of Prophet Muhammad” is blatantly untrue, they only did it during the life of The Prophet and during the time of the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs. Islam has degenerated since Sunnah and Hadith became orthodoxy precisely because they are not inspired By Gods Words.

    As to the right to choose, Allah clearly states ” there is no compulsion in religion” or do you wish to ignore that fact?

    With regard to womens dress, what exactly does it say in Al Quran about womens dress:

    THREE RULES FOR WOMEN’S DRESS CODE IN ISLAM

    THE BEST GARMENT, FIRST RULE :

    [7:26] “O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD’s signs, that they may take heed.”

    This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam.

    SECOND RULE, COVER YOUR BOSOMS:

    The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely “Hijab” and “Khimar”

    THE WORD “HIJAB” in the QURAN

    “Hijab” is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word “Hijab” can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word “Hijab” include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

    Can we find the word “Hijab” in the Quran??

    The word “Hijab” appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as “Hijab” and two times as “Hijaban,” these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

    None of these “Hijab” words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

    God knows that generations after Muhammed’s death the Muslims will use the word “Hijab” to invent a dress code that He never authorized. God used the word “Hijab” ahead of them just as He used the word “Hadith” ahead of them.

    Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.

    HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:

    While many Muslims call “Hijab”, an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

    In reality “Hijab” is an old Jewish tradition that infiltrated into the hadith books like many innovations that contaminated Islam through alleged Hadith and Sunna. These in reality, came from Jewish origin. Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman is encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Religious Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

    Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time. This religious practice of covering the head was established from traditions thousands of years before the Muslim scholars claimed the Hijab as a Muslim dress code.

    The traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear “Hijab,” not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this minute most of the men cover their head , not because of Islam but because of tradition. Thank God this tradition has not been counted as Islamic dress code yet.

    North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing “Hijab” instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse. If wearing Hijab is the sign of the pious and righteous Muslim woman, Mother Teresa would have been the first woman to be counted.

    In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

    Mixing religion with tradition is a form of idol-worship, because not knowing (or not trying to find out) what God asked you to do in His book, the Quran, is a sign of disregarding God and His message. When tradition supersedes God’s commandment, the true religion takes a second place. God never accepts to be second, God has to be always the FIRST and to HIM there is no second..

    THE WORD “KHIMAR” in the QURAN:

    “Khimar” is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.

    Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word “Khimar” in this verse is not for “Hijab” or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God’s.

    Here it is 24:31;

    “And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.” 24:31

    Here is Yousuf Ali’s translation, but the word KHIMAR was put back in place instead of (veils), so the verse would look as it should have been before adding Ali’s own interpretation:

    “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments … that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..” Y. Ali’s translation, with the word khimar put back in place.

    “Khimar” is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

    In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

    God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

    The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear – COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

    The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, “They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies.” The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

    Notice also the expression in 24:31, “They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary.” This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

    Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of “Which is necessary”. It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.

    Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word “zeenatahunna” in this verse refers to the woman’s body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.

    At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their “zeenatahunna”. You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.

    Accepting orders from anybody but God, means idol-worship. That is how serious the matter of Hijab/ khimar is. Women who wear Hijab because of tradition or because they like it for personal reasons commit no sin, as long as they know that it is not part of this perfect religion. Those who are wearing it because they think God ordered it are committing Idol-worship, as God did not order it, the scholars did. These women have found for themselves another god than the One who revealed the Quran, complete, perfect and FULLY detailed to tell them they have to cover their heads to be Muslims.

    Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.

    THIRD RULE OF DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN:

    The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in 33:59.

    “O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.” 33:59

    In 33:59, God sets the other regulation for the dress code for the Muslim women during the prophet’s life. Although the verse is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, just like the order in 49:2, the description fits the spirit of Islam, and can teach us a great deal.

    If you reflect on this verse and how God ordered the prophet to tell his wives, his daughters and the wives of the believers to lengthen their garments, you would understand the great wisdom of the MOST WISE, the MOST MERCIFUL. In this verse, God, DELIBERATELY, (and all the TRUE believers know that everything GOD says, does, or did is DELIBERATE) said, tell them, to lengthen their garments, and never said how long is long.

    God could have said tell them to lengthen their garments to their ankles or to their mid-calf or to their knees, but HE DID NOT. He did not, OUT OF HIS MERCY, not because HE FORGOT as God does not forget. God knows that we will be living in different communities and have different cultures and insists that the minor details of this dress code will be left for the people of every community to hammer for themselves.

    It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves.

    Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country.

    This difference in the way we perceive modesty is well known to God, he created us, and He put NO hardship on us in this great religion. He left it to us to decide what modesty would be. For any person, knowledgeable or not to draw a line and make conclusion for God about the definition of modesty is to admit that he/she knows better than God. God left it open for us and no-one has the authority to restrict it, it has to stay open.

    RELAXING THE DRESS CODE:

    In the family setting, God put no hardship on the women, and permitted them to relax their dress code. If you reflect on the verses, 33:35 and 24:60, you will see that God did not give details of what this relaxation is, because every situation is different. A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.

    [33:55] “The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things.”

    [24:60] “The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower.”

    DRESS CODE FOR THE MOSQUES:

    [7:31] “O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons.”

    HARDSHIP IN THIS RELIGION:

    God, the MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL decided that those who will reject His complete book and go look for other sources for guidance will suffer in this life and in the HEREAFTER by their choice. God never put any hardship on the believers, but the scholars did, they invented their own laws in defiance of God, to regulate everything from the side of bed you sleep on, to which foot should step in the house, to what to do with a fly in your soup, to what to say when having intercourse with your spouse.

    Those who believe God and believe that His book is COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED, will have everything easy for them as God promised, See 10:62-64, 16:97 while those who could not believe God and have been seeking other sources than the Quran will have all the hardship of this life and the life to come. In the Hereafter they will complain to God, “we were not idol-worshipers,” but God knows best, He knows they were See 6:22-24

    “On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, “Where are the idols you set up?” Their disastrous response will be, “By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers.” Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them.” 6:22-24

    CONCLUSION:

    God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam,

    (1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.
    (2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).
    (3) Lengthen your garment.

    While these three BASIC rules may not sound enough for those who do not trust God, the TRUE believers know that God is ENOUGH. God could have given us more details to the point of having graphs, designs and color rules, but He , the Most Merciful, wants to give us exactly these very basic rules and leave the rest for us. After these three basic rules every woman is more aware of her circumstances and can adjust her dress for her situation. Any addition to these basic Quranic rules is an attempt to correct God or improve on His merciful design.

    We have no obligation to follow but God’s rules. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but idol-worship and should be refused.

    Salaams

  11. avatar Miss Indo 07 says:

    Khafi mr enlightened ;P
    hehe,aren’t u tired typing that very long message to sum1 who won’t even understand?
    Hassan,I read a news about a 76year-old woman raped by a 28year-old guy,
    is the grandma seducing?
    mate,it’s all about self control,
    what if i see a handsome sexy guy on the street?
    i wont just jump to him,rite?

  12. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Miss Indo 07,

    I will never tire of trying to show people that Al Quran and Gods other Scriptures are completely compatible with each other and that if we all just followed the original teachings we could all live in harmony with each other. If I can only make one person think then I think it is all worthwhile. All of Gods words if approached correctly, teach tolerance, understanding, equality and goodness don’t they?

    Peace

  13. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohamed khafi: so, a lengthened bikini suffices that dress code? bikinis covers the genital, and bosom. and we must only lenghtened the bikini (no matter how long it may be) to make it compatible with your version of the Islamic dress code.

    so now, khafi, is it allright to pray to Allah SWT with a lengthened dress that covers the genital and bosom??

    and if aurat only meant the genitals, then it would be more blatant. as it’s always said that we should cover our aurat when we pray to Allah SWT, and not wear garments that suffices the dress code. are you suggesting we should only cover our genitals when we pray, khafi??

  14. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    I would no more suggest that than saying that we should go swimming dressed in a ball gown, all attire should be suitable for the occasion. You are starting to sound desperate Hassan coming out with stupid remarks like this.

    Don’t forget Hassan these words are Allah’s not mine, you are arguing against Allah not me, all I am doing is reminding you of what is in Al Quran.

    Peace Brother

  15. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohamed khafi: no, I’m not arguing Allah SWT, I’m arguing your interpretation of the Quran.

    i quote one of your statements “the Arabic word aurat means the external genitals, it is only the teachings which you follow which have perverted the word to mean everything apart from a womans hands and face!”

    so, we all knew that we must take the wudhu ritual and cover our aurat (it did not say we must fulfill the Islamic dress code)before we pray to Allah SWT. based on your interpretations, a woman may wear a thong and a bra (excuse my language) and then she is already considered not exposing her aurat! and then she can pray to Allah SWT Most Gracious and Merciful??

    that is plainly degenerating. your interpretations are sick and pathetic. perhaps because you rely so much on your own intelligence to grasp all of Allah SWT’s words and grace.

  16. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    You sound more and more desperate day by day, I said “all attire should be suitable for the occasion”

    And I quote:

    The word ‘awrah itself means ‘defectiveness, faultiness, deficiency, imperfection; pudendum, genitals; weakness, weak spot’. As a technical term in Islamic law, the extended sense of ‘pudendum’ has been defined to mean the part of the body that must be covered for the sake of basic decency: for men, from the navel to the knees, and for women, the whole body except for the face, hands, and the feet. Some Muslim jurists over the centuries, with no justification in the sources of Sharî’ah, increased the definition of woman’s ‘awrah to mean the entire woman, with nothing excepted. This fit in with the institution of “purdah” which restricted women to their homes and made them cover their faces. One ruling of the veil, applied in some Arab countries, said that women had to cover one eye and leave the other uncovered to see with (which directly goes back to the original meaning of having only one eye).

    As you can see from this it is your definition derived from Sunnah and Hadith which has corrupted the word, I consider that your Sunnah and Hadith are plainly degenerating and their interpretations of Allah’s Al Quran are sick and pathetic.

    And mentioning the Wudhu ritual:

    I will give six translations of verse 5:6 which will say you that your ritual is wrong. Please see:

    Khan:- “O you who believe! When you intend to offer As- Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles”¦..”

    Maulana: “O you who believe, when you rise up for prayer, wash your
    faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and (wash)
    your feet up to the ankles”¦..”

    Pickthal: “O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces,
    and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your
    feet up to the ankles”¦”¦”

    Rashad: “O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles”¦.”

    Sherali: “O ye who believe ! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles”¦.”

    Yusufali: “O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles”¦.”

    As you can see this is Allah’s simple path, is your Wudhu ritual as simple as Allah commands it to be?

    Peace

  17. avatar Miss Indo 07 says:

    Khafi, I know, I was just kidding. ^^

    It’s so nice knowing that I still can find people like you who know deeply about your religion yet not attacking other people’s religion.
    As I said before I really hate fanatic people no matter what religion they are.

    Because I also have the same opinion as you.
    Every religion teaches love, tolerance and every religion teaches good things, not bad things.

    peace ^^

  18. avatar Hassan says:

    Muhammed khafi: we were not talking about the wudhu ritual, so just skip it. let me put it like this.

    1. do you not agree that we should cover our aurat before we pray to Allah?

    2. didn’t you said that “the Arabic word aurat means the external genitals, it is only the teachings which you follow which have perverted the word to mean everything apart from a womans hands and face!”

    3. the general rule is that we must perform the wudhu ritual and we also must cover our aurat before we pray. nothing was said in the Quran about using the “attire that is suitable for the occasion” before we pray.

    4. by using your definition of the aurat which is “the external genitals”, then before we pray, we must cover our external genitals only. i know you said “all attire should be suitable for the occasion” but that is not the precondition set forth in the Quran before we pray. it were only said that we must perform the wudhu ritual and cover our aurat before we pray.

    5. using your definition of the aurat, then a woman who takes a wudhu and then wears a bra and thong will suffice the ‘perform the wudhu ritual and cover our aurat before we pray’ condition before praying.

    now, something’s missing with the picture. I don’t know, maybe it’s your interpretation of the aurat?? if the interpretation of the aurat is “the whole body except for the face, hands, and the feet” then it will make sense if she dresses that way (covering her entire body except the face, hands, and the feet) before she prays.

  19. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    Please quote to me the Quranic verse which says we have to

    cover our aurat before we pray

    There is no particular dress code for prayer, in fact, if you wish you can pray nude in your privacy. Covering our bodies is a social and cultural necessity aimed to protect ourselves from harassment, misunderstanding and undesired consequences.

    Peace

  20. avatar AiHope says:

    I think both of you are waisting your time in arguing this thing. FYI!! not everybody in Indo is Moslem. You have to respect their way of life, not just according to Quran.

    Try to open your mind that the major income for Indo is from Tourism and Hospitality industry, if this proposed law get through then it will be the next BALI BOMBING!! If the foreigner come to the beach with their bkinis or whatever the wardrobe is, should they be fined or send to jail? It is not fair for the tourists and the people who hang their income from this industry. The economic of Indo has been suffer enough as a result from the series of bombing.

    Moreover, our culture has soo many traditional clothing that show some flesh but i dont think that it’s disgusting or the way to get raped. It is CULTURE. The proposed law means proposed to demolished the culture then.

    I agree with Miss Indo 07 that it’s all about self control. Please, maybe, the government should make the same proposed law to lock the zipper in every men’s trousers or men forbidden to stand on the side of the street to make fun of the women.
    Self control, please…

  21. avatar Karlira Kanakahuko says:

    Hassan is always right. Don’t force Indonesians to Saudi Arabianize, even they are Muslims. Conservative Muslims are purely hypocrites! Only men/boys should blame of this very controversial sexuality, not women because men/boys are the most sexually aggressive among all genders in the whole universe forever.

  22. avatar Hassan says:

    karlira kankahuko: yada yada yada.. yeah continue your babling.

  23. avatar Karta says:

    Hassan,

    If I think women’s legs are arousing, then the women should cover their legs.
    If I think women’s feet are arousing, then the women should cover their foot, even in their own home”¦
    If i think women’s lips are arousing, then the women should cover their lips.
    If i think a woman’s voice is sexy, then she should not speak at all.
    If i think a woman’s way of walking is sexy, then she should not walk at all.

    Now..
    If a woman thinks that a man’s beard is sexy, then he should shave it all.
    If a woman think that man’s hair is sexy, then he should cover it.
    If a woman think that a man’s legs are sexy, then he should wear long trousers all the time.. and so on.. and so on..

    The reasons why this bill is so wrong and should not be passed are because”¦
    1) Indonesia’s multiculturalism and our respect to others’ cultures and religions.
    2) All of the points in the bill seem to imply that it’s all women’s fault and the men cannot control themselves under any circumstances of seeing an attractive women.
    If this bill wants to be considered fair, then it should be imposed on men as well. Which means that men would no longer allowed to wear short pants, short-sleeved shirts and they would need head-cover and most probably a face cover as well. Can you imagine wearing those clothes in 34 degrees celsius temperature in Jakarta?
    3) The proponents of this bill stated that this bill will not affect foreigners and cultural traditions. Now, how do we know that they’re foreigners?? Because they’re white?? What if they are Chinese or Korean tourists? They look like Chinese-Indonesians, like me. How would the authority knows that they’re not locals and foreigners?

    In short say, this bill is vague and open to each of the enforcer’s interpretation and should not be passed as a law. It’s a waste of the taxpayer’s money.

  24. avatar Martheen says:

    Errr, any proof about successful protection from such law? Ever heard what happened if u get raped in Arab?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/17/saudi.rape/index.html

    Is rate of rape in liberal country way higher than Arab? U may say so, but actually, in Arab, rape victim is the guilty one, so they won’t show up telling everyone “Hey, I’m just raped, so I’m 100% doing adultery, slash me!!”

    Let’s do it in democracy way. Start any “dawah” with ur money, encourage anyone (female, i don’t think u have something 4 guys) 2 wear proper islamic dress, u can say hell await those uncovered, getting raped is halal, etc, but just that, without law. Hey, we don’t have to FORCE people to wear common casual dress, they do it on their own. If something is good enough to happen by itself, it’s good. Otherwise, it’s like forcing urself eating a meal that ur cat won’t even sniff

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