The Fires of Hell

Aug 27th, 2009, in News, by

The Fires of HellHow hot are the fires in hell and how they are full of women.

Rosnida, a teacher of religion at Pasundan 7 junior high school in Bandung, West Java on 25th August gave a lesson to her third grade class on heaven and hell, and explained that those who performed sholat – the daily prayers that a Muslim is supposed to do – would likely go to heaven, while those who did not pray regularly would go to hell.

She asked for a show of hands of students who often forgot to pray and upon noticing that most of those who admitted to not praying were girls said that hell was full of women who did not pray. She then lit a match, put it out, and went around the class touching the burnt match head against the girls’ hands, explaining that the fires of hell were much hotter than the match.

One girl, Tantri Agustriani (14), attempted to avoid having the match touched against her and suffered a mild burn on her left cheek when the match, accidentally it seems, touched her face. Tantri said detik

A lot of the girls didn’t want their hands touched with the match but the teacher forced it on them.

School principal Eriek Sudeni said it was likely that teacher Rosnida would be punished, however the girl’s parents do not wish Rosnida to be dismissed, but only that in future lessons be more well thought out. banjarmasinpost


63 Comments on “The Fires of Hell”

  1. avatar Fawzia says:

    These are some Sahih hadiths-taken from the two Sahih collections of Bukhari & Muslim, which clearly state that women will be a majority in Hell AND they will be a minority in Jannah.

    Sahih Muslim 36.6600:1, See Also Sahih Muslim 36:6601

    Imran b. Husain reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form a minority.

    Sahih Muslim 36:6596

    IUsama b. Zaid reported that Allah’s Messenger (way peace be upon him) said: I stood at the door of Paradise and I found that the overwhelming majority of those who entered therein was that of poor persons and the wealthy persons were detained to get into that. The denizens of Hell were commanded to get into Hell, and I stood upon the door of Fire and the majority amongst them who entered there was that of women.

    Sahih Muslim 36:6597, See Also Sahih Muslim 36:6598, Sahih Muslim 36:6599

    Ibn Abbas reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I had a chance to look into the Paradise and I found that majority of the people was poor and I looked into the Fire and there I found the majority constituted by women.

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:124

    Narrated Usama: The Prophet said, “I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women.”

    Sahih Bukhari 1:2:28

    Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”

    Thus we can see that there are multiple Sahih hadiths, all of which reiterate one thing: women will be the majority in Hell AND THEY WILL ALSO A MINORITY IN HEAVEN.

    Go figure!

  2. avatar dragonwall says:

    Please do not misunderstood me by saying could that be you imagination, halucination or in your dream.

    It was told religiously or on big screen about Hell.

    But did you know that Satan lives among one level in Heaven when the Chinese saying were:

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

    So where is Hell?

    To each their own. So will the Fire of Hell burn on!

    If we believe in Karma, then there shall be Heaven and Hell.

    When one thinks of Hell it is all about sufferings, so is there any Joy in Heaven?

    If so how long will a person suffer in Hell and how long will the person enjoy in Heaven?

    When you are reincarnated from Hell, what will a person be like. Similary vice versa with Heaven.

    When dooms day come for earth, will ther be another earth or living?

  3. avatar dragonwall says:

    The Chinese words appear as ??????????

  4. avatar Brother Mouzone says:

    @ Fawzia

    Thus we can see that there are multiple Sahih hadiths, all of which reiterate one thing: women will be the majority in Hell AND THEY WILL ALSO A MINORITY IN HEAVEN.

    Sounds a little misogynistic to me. So, if women are the minority in heaven, what about all those virgins you’re told to expect? Are they blokes?

    The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (The Book of Bolognese, Chapter 7, Verse 25) states that pirates will make up the majority in heaven. How do you reconcile this with your holy verses?

    @Dragonwall

    The Chinese words appear as ??????????

    Not to worry, that’s how they would have appeared to most of us anyway.

  5. avatar dragonwall says:

    Right most of them may not..

  6. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Sounds a little misogynistic to me. So, if women are the minority in heaven, what about all those virgins you’re told to expect?

    Be create dudes, if the women from this world is minority in heaven so what is difficult for God to create other companion for the muslim men that is virgins from an angel species and there is also another 71000 of pearly boys for their servants.

    It is one of the reason why Taliban is more resilient than Columbian drug dealer

  7. avatar dragonwall says:

    Sounds a little misogynistic to me

    Benci Tapi Cinta…Mungkin Baunya……

    It is one of the reason why Taliban is more resilient than Columbian drug dealer

    No wonder they are bombings everywhere. Whereas many Columbian drug dealers are caught.

  8. avatar Brother Mouzone says:

    virgins from an angel species and there is also another 71000 of pearly boys for their servants.

    But where do the pirates fit in? And what on God’s green earth is a pearly boy?

    Taliban is more resilient than Columbian drug dealer

    Possibly, but the Taliban wear eyeliner. And paint their toenails.

  9. avatar Odinius says:

    I think Colombian drug dealers are quite resilient, actually.

  10. avatar matahari says:

    @ fawzia

    if hell is so full of women, why even bother to create more women? to make use of hell? i thought god was supposed to be merciful…

  11. avatar Fawzia says:

    Sounds a little misogynistic to me. So, if women are the minority in heaven, what about all those virgins you’re told to expect? Are they blokes?

    Correcto, its misogynistic! Those virgins are specially created fantasy women, with big boobs. They don’t exist on earth & go on to become virgins in Jannah, they’re specially kept in jannah for men, rather like inflatable sex dolls on earth!

    @ fawzia

    if hell is so full of women, why even bother to create more women? to make use of hell? i thought god was supposed to be merciful…

    It isn’t me who says that Hell is full of women, its Muhammad & his Allah, so ask them!

    God, if by God you mean Allah, isn’t particularly merciful! He says that all people who assign partners to Him are going to burn in Hell, so that means all the Balinese Hindus who died in the terror attacks of 2002 & 2005 are going to roast in Hell, although Allah may forgive the perpetrators of those attacks!

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    Then for no rhyme or reason, Allah will send women to Hell!

    Allah’s mercy is indeed boundless! Innit?

  12. avatar Odinius says:

    Hmm, well Fawzia, Christianity also states that those who do not accept Christ as the son of God and messiah on the last day will also be disbarred from heaven. Jews believe the Covenant is only with them. So saying “only this path leads you to heaven” is kinda par for the course, when it comes to Abrahamic religions.

    But there are other passages in the Quran that clearly state that the Torah and New Testament are indeed holy books, and that Christians and Jews can enter heaven without necessarily accepting the Quran. That little bit of relativism is what’s not par for the course.

  13. avatar matahari says:

    im not talking about any religion here, Fawzia, and i believe if you scrutinize any holy book, it surely contains hell in it, if it is not women who will get burnt like you quoted it will be other believers who will, it is my ignorance that i could not quote the Quran, Bible, Torah, let alone hadiths, i keep myself away…
    i just can not accept that God is less merciful, maybe i just do not understand God

  14. avatar Fawzia says:

    Hmm, well Fawzia, Christianity also states that those who do not accept Christ as the son of God and messiah on the last day will also be disbarred from heaven. Jews believe the Covenant is only with them. So saying “only this path leads you to heaven” is kinda par for the course, when it comes to Abrahamic religions.

    Nope, you’re wrong about Jews, they say, “The righteous amongst all nations have a place in the world which is to come!”This isn’t my imagination, its from the Torah, not even the Talmud. So they believe good non believers also go to the same good Afterlife!
    http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

    Next time, please ensure that you know your facts before broadcasting misinformation to the world!

    Yes, Christians also have exclusivist salvation, but thats tu quoque logical fallacy to claim that its allright for Muslims coz Christians too have it!

    But there are other passages in the Quran that clearly state that the Torah and New Testament are indeed holy books, and that Christians and Jews can enter heaven without necessarily accepting the Quran. That little bit of relativism is what’s not par for the course.

    Unfortunately for Islamophiles, it really isn’t so simple! 😉

    This is for eg, the passage which says that Xtians too go to Heaven!

    5:69
    Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians – Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right – there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

    This is immediately followed by what I quoted!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    So Christians have to believe Jesus wasn’t Son of God & there’s no Trinity to go to Heaven, & Jesus being God is a central tenet of Christianity!

    Yeah, sure Jews seem to be spared by Allah, but again, its a bit more complicated, I’ll gladly quote some sweet stuff Muhammad said for you!

    All from Sahih Muslim

    Book 041, Number 6983:

    Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

    Book 041, Number 6984:

    Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

    Book 041, Number 6985:

    Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

    So Trinity believing Christians, thats’ basically all Christians go to Hell, plus Jews have to go through a genocide at the hands of Muslims, before they go wherever! 😉

  15. avatar Odinius says:

    Fawzia, don’t build men of straw. I’m a full-time relativist, not an exclusivist. As such, I never said it was “okay,” just that it’s typical for religions to contradict each other, if taken literally, and to be exclusivist.

    Judaism, which posits that God has a chosen “people,” is quite exclusivist if taken literally, as are Christianity and Islam. But people have brains, and can decide what should be more important than what. This is how mainstream Catholicism changed from the thing that gave birth to the Inquisition into the thing that gave birth to the Jesuits.

  16. avatar Fawzia says:

    Fawzia, don’t build men of straw. I’m a full-time relativist, not an exclusivist. As such, I never said it was “okay,” just that it’s typical for religions to contradict each other, if taken literally, and to be exclusivist.

    Not all religions are exclusivist-at least not all Scriptures are exclusivist.Only Christianity & Islam are. Anyway, I wasn’t building men of straw, simply pointing out the areas where your factual knowledge was lacking!

    Jews don’t have exclusivist salvation!

    Judaism, which posits that God has a chosen “people,” is quite exclusivist if taken literally, as are Christianity and Islam. But people have brains, and can decide what should be more important than what. This is how mainstream Catholicism changed from the thing that gave birth to the Inquisition into the thing that gave birth to the Jesuits

    Not at all, the Jews might have some exclusivist aspects in their Scriptures, but in their recorded history they’ve always managed to co exist well with folks who don’t trouble them.

    Jews lived in absolute peace with polytheistic Hindus & Buddhists in India for more than two millennia, they also lived in complete peace with the pagan Arabs in pre Islamized Arabia.

    Research a li’l bit more of Islamic history, & you’ll come across Kaab ibn Al Ashraf, son of a Jewish mom & pagan Arab dad, who was brought up Jewish & even became leader of a Jewish tribe.

    Thus even from Islamic sources, its evident that Jews did even intermarry with pagan Arabs.

    It was only after Muhammad invented Islam that the other religions-paganism & Judaism were cleansed out of what is Saudi today.

    Judaism, which posits that God has a chosen “people,” is quite exclusivist if taken literally, as are Christianity and Islam. But people have brains, and can decide what should be more important than what. This is how mainstream Catholicism changed from the thing that gave birth to the Inquisition into the thing that gave birth to the Jesuits.

    Not all faiths have the same brains, the same capacity for reform etc!Muslims kill more people each year than all those killed in the Spanish Inquisition!

    This site includes only explicitly religious attacks, not even ones like the Turkish PKK, which don’t have explicitly religious motives!

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    I know you’re a full time relativist, such folks never fail to amuse me! 😉

    Even if some non Muslims, after 20 attacks by Muslims retaliate, these Islamophile relativists will find ways & means, or at least struggle for ways & means to exonerate Islam & blame the others involved, even if the non Muslims are far more sinned against than sinning!
    😉

    They won’t even let facts get in the way of their agenda!

    Thus, even if Jews have managed to live in peace with non Jewish gentiles who don’t trouble them in even polytheistic India, China & pre Islamic Arabia, they’re juat as bad as Muslims! 🙂

  17. avatar Odinius says:

    Religions are what you make of them. History shows every religion has been used for good and for ill. That’s an undeniable fact of life.

    People who don’t understand this are blinded and delusional.

  18. avatar Fawzia says:

    Religions are what you make of them.

    Correct, plus its also what the texts of the religions contain.

    History shows every religion has been used for good and for ill. That’s an undeniable fact of life.

    Again correct, but not all religions have been used for good & ill to the same extent, or even anywhere near the same extent. It might be tempting to conclude that thats’ the case, but unfortunately facts don’t support such a hypothesis.

    Take something like stonings, clearly mentioned in the Torah. There really is no recorded instance of Jews ever having indulged in such acts for the last 2000 years, apart from some historically unsound claims in the NT.

    Although Jews have lived not only in Europe, but also in the mid East & India, such stuff simply hasn’t happened for two millennia.

    Yet Muslims stone, in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Nigeria etc-to this day.

    Obviously Muslims have failed to make of their religion what Jews have.

    Or honor killings,both Muslims & Jews originate in the mid East, almost half the Jewish population of Israel is mid Eastern origin, yet only Muslims in Israel honor kill.

    People who don’t understand this are blinded and delusional.

    Not at all, people know that human beings being what they are, they will use their religion, atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism, Wicca-anything for both good & ill.

    However, not all doctrines are equal in their capacity to inspire either good or il-its people who don’t understand this who are blinded & delusional.

    As a rather weak analogy, our world is still very much a man’s world in multiple ways, men globally display some chauvinism in some or the other arena, yet not all men are Talibans.

    Its like a comment in a Swedish newspaper that “All men are like Taliban.”

    This is simply absurd.While its an undeniable fact of life that more men than women are rapists in both Sweden & Afghaistan, people who claim that all men are Taliban(& go to great lengths to prove his, through laboriously digging out every misogynistic act of Swedish men, & making excuses for the Taliban) like are blinded & delusional.

    Likewise its blinded & delusional to claim that all non Muslims at the receiving end of Islamist violence should bear it all silently, & if they ever retaliate they’re big bigots, while making excuses for Islamist violence on non Muslims.

  19. avatar Odinius says:

    Given that there was no Jewish-majority state–or really, even territory–between 70 and 1948 AD makes it difficult to judge that. Ancient Israel was brutal, but where wasn’t? After being dispersed, Jews were minorities wherever they lived, and fairly powerless in most situations. However, Israel’s behavior since its founding does not exactly help the argument that it’s exceptionally peaceful, or really that it’s exceptionally not peaceful. Since 1948, Judaism has been used to justify and criticize the excesses of the Israeli state. I see similar situations in many Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu countries as well.

    A lot of majority-Muslim societies are currently in a dark age. Clearly Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, etc. are. Some will emerge from it. History is cyclical, after all. At another time, the Islamic world was pretty tolerant in comparison to its western neighbors. Neither tendency emerges from an inherent “badness” or “goodness” of Islam, but from different priorities of different people acting in different circumstances.

    Religions are like soto: you can spice ’em up to fit your purposes. The Islam of posters on here like M. Khafi is quite beautiful. The Islam of Mullah Omar is crass and disturbing. Same goes for the others.

  20. avatar sputjam says:

    Actually fawzia has got it wrong.
    the koran actually warned mankind against all religion, including islam. I think it is termed as idol worship.
    Most muslims serve their religion and forget about God.
    They will kill and act arrogantly defending their religion. this is against the messages in the koran.
    God is the sustainer. he gives, we take.
    He does not require anything from mankind. He does not even need mankind.
    So obey his messages and strive to do good.
    To strive for the good path, follow the ten commandments.

    6:151 Say: ?Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you: that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is openly of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which God has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.?
    6:152 ?And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reaches his independence; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember.?
    6:153 And this is My path, a straight one. ?So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous.?

  21. avatar matahari says:

    for crying out loud… why all holy books should have secondary translations

  22. avatar ET says:

    Odinius said

    But people have brains, and can decide what should be more important than what.

    Unless they are brainwashed.

    From Encyclopaedia Britannica

    The techniques of brainwashing typically involve isolation from former associates and sources of information; an exacting regimen requiring absolute obedience and humility; strong social pressures and rewards for cooperation; physical and psychological punishments for non-cooperation ranging from social ostracism and criticism, deprivation of food, sleep, and social contacts, to bondage and torture; and continual reinforcement.

    Absolute obedience and humility, sounds like ‘submission’ to me. And how do they say submission in Arabic?

  23. avatar Fawzia says:

    Given that there was no Jewish-majority state–or really, even territory–between 70 and 1948 AD makes it difficult to judge that. Ancient Israel was brutal, but where wasn’t? After being dispersed, Jews were minorities wherever they lived, and fairly powerless in most situations.

    Ancient Israel is so much mythology sprinkled with so little facts, to claim they were brutal or easy going is like claiming Adam wore so & so in the Garden of Eden!

    This quasi historical character of ancient Israel has been well recognized by most Jews-even Conservative Rabbis like Rabbi Wolfe, who too called the Exodus ahistorical!

    Even amongst minorities,its easy to judge some stuff-like stonings & honor killings!

    Lacking a state-ie moving to the West hasn’t exactly made Muslims abandon such stuff either! 😉

    Jews lived in Europe for millennia, often had a bad time & were heavily criticized for doing stuff they actually didn’t do-it would be common knowledge if they honor killed!

    Also, mid eastern laws, under which half of all Jews lived, freely allowed & committed stonings, Jews have still managed not to stone in the mid east for the last 2000 years in the mid east.

    As for minorities & ‘powerless minorities” being minorities hasn’t stopped the Muslims of India, Israel or the West from repeatedly planning & executing iterror attacks, has it?;-)

    With Islamophile relativists like you for encouragement, it won’t stop them either! 😉

    Indians, Chinese, pre Islamic Arabs were all pretty tolerant minorities, it would be possible for Jews, for eg, at least in pre Islamic Arabia to honor kil Kaab ibn al Ashraf’s mother for marrying his polytheistic daddy, they didn’t! 😉

    However, Israel’s behavior since its founding does not exactly help the argument that it’s exceptionally peaceful, or really that it’s exceptionally not peaceful. Since 1948, Judaism has been used to justify and criticize the excesses of the Israeli state. I see similar situations in many Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu countries as well.

    Again, you forget all sense of proportion! Minority Muslims are a thriving & increasing community in Israel, unlike Jews in the rest of the mid East, who’ve been almost wiped out!

    Muslims, for all their crocodile tears of suffering in non Muslim nations, migrate legally & ilegally to their non Muslim neighbours or the West, leaving their nice, Muslim homelands behind, while no Muslim minorities continue to shrink in Muslim nations.

    Muslims from Pakistan & Bangladesh move illegally to India in millions to settle there, after being given explicitly Muslim states!

    Turkish Muslims, who were never colonized & were colonizers of Greece themsleves,move to Germany, Switzerland etc!

    They feel no need to take in either the Greeks whom they colonized for millennia, or even apologize for the Armenian Genocide.

    Obviously Muslims, for all their cries of “discrimination” are happier & feel safer when they live in a nation run by non Muslims, even another poor nation, or we have to conclude that they’re masochists who move to another place to be oppressed! 😉

    True, such bigoted tendencies can be seen in many non Muslim nations as well,yet again, its complete blind & delusional to claim that all nations are identical, its again like claiming that Taliban men & Swedish men are as misogynistic as each other!

    Or Hitler & Roosevelt are just the same, so there was no need to fight Hitler, we can let him be & exaggerate `1940’s America’s faults instead!

    A lot of majority-Muslim societies are currently in a dark age. Clearly Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, etc. are. Some will emerge from it. History is cyclical, after all. At another time, the Islamic world was pretty tolerant in comparison to its western neighbors. Neither tendency emerges from an inherent “badness” or “goodness” of Islam, but from different priorities of different people acting in different circumstances

    The myth of Islamic tolerance was manufactured by 1)Western writers crying with white guilt & looking for a way to bash their societies!

    2)Non Muslims, like Indians, Armenians, Zoroastrians never getting the due apology from Muslims, coz Islam will never acknowledge its sordid past.

    Even in case of Jews, there were numerous pogroms all throughout Muslim history in the mid East lands.

    Pray, why would Iranian Zoroastrians flee to India as soon as Islam attacked-if Islam was so tolerant? They knew Persia, they didn’t know a thing about India, they could well all perish in the voyage, why wouldn’t they choose to stay back in a nation they knew?

    We all know about all the destruction the Whites did, coz we can read their true & even exaggerated accounts, delicate Muslim sensibilities aren’t hurt by non Muslims by forcing them to acknowledge the truths!We know for instance that the West forgot, ignored & even destroyed Graeco Roman learnin g for a time, thanks to Westerners criticizing themselves, did you know about the ancient Nalanda University, a world famous Budhist University in Bihar, where scholars from China & the far East came, & which took days to burn, when Muslims destroyed it & beheaded thousands of monks?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

    Such history has to be avoided or re written, coz Muslims delicate feelings are prone to commit terrorist acts if these are discussed! 😉

    Even in the Middle Ages, Muslims were butchering Hindu & Buddhist infidels in the Indian sub continent, Zoroastrians in Iran, Christians in North Africa etc!

    There were three flourishing religions-paganism, Judaism & Christianity in the region which is Saudi now in Muhammad’s time, Muhammad personally cleansed out all of them from the peninsula, letting only Islam remain.

    After Muhammad’s death, his followers again slaughtered all those who apostatized from Islam in the ridda wars, although they had simply chosen not to follow Islam, not even attacked Muslims.

    There was never a period of even persecution, like Christians endured in the first few centuries, right from Muhammad, Muslims began attacking & persecuting others, as soon as he died, Muslims forced apostates to remain Muslim or die in the ridda wars, & attacked other nations.

    Yes, other religions have gone through their bad times, most hava managed to reform-Islam was going through a violent time even in the Middle Ages, its still continuing.

    Obviously, there aren’t enough elements in the text, beliefs etc to come out of this situation!

    Religions are like soto: you can spice ‘em up to fit your purposes. The Islam of posters on here like M. Khafi is quite beautiful. The Islam of Mullah Omar is crass and disturbing. Same goes for the others.

    Not at all, again the key word here is proportion, which you sadly seem to lack in your attempts to portray all religions the same!

    Sure, all religions can be used for good & bad, just like all humans have both good & bad in them!

    But its scarcely the same amount of bad!

    I wonder what the state of the world would have been today, had all people concluded during World War 2 that Hitler isn’t really bad, coz even Roosevelt is fine with the Blacks living under segregation, so there’s no need to either fight Hitler or even object to his & the German’s ideas! 😉

    Sure the faults of Roosevelt’s USA needed to be criticized & corrected, however, its hardly doing the world a favor by claiming that the atrocities of Roosevelt’s USA & Nazi Germany are exactly similar, exaggerating
    USA’s flaws & obfuscating Germany’s-& conclude that there’s no need to criticize Germany more!

    Not many religions have stonings & amputations in their legal codes today-as Islamic nations do.

    Not many lash for adultery legally.

    Few, if any other religions have either the death penalty for apostasy!

    Please go through the site I previously gave you a link to, “The Religion of Peace” where the daily attacks of Muslims are stated, these are done explicitly in the name of Islam!!!

    In both Thailand & Philippines, Muslims have full freedom of religion, yet they’re killing people almost daily however in Malaysia, Chinese & Indians are religiously & financially oppressed, yet they bear it!

    Islam does all this & more. http://chongeng.blogsome.com/2007/04/03/dont-take-away-her-child/

    You’re not doing either Muslims or non Muslims a favor by underemphasising all that they do to others, just like you wouldn’t be doing the world a favor during World War 2 by claiming that racially segregated USA is as bad as Nazi Germany so Hitler should be allowed to remain, while you use your intellect trying to find flaws in USA’s behavior.

  24. avatar Fawzia says:

    Actually fawzia has got it wrong.
    the koran actually warned mankind against all religion, including islam. I think it is termed as idol worship.

    Actually sputjam, its unfortunately YOu who’s got it wrong!

    The Quran does warn mankind against religion-yet is religions like Christianity, Judaism, idolatrous religions etc!

    First its disbelievers!

    Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell39:32

    So all those who happen to think that God doesn’t exist or are unsure of God’s existence-will go to Hell!

    This is a significant % of the world today!

    Then the Quran targets polytheists & trinitarian Christians!

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    33% of the world is Christian, 14% Hindu, 4% Chinese folk religionists, add the Japanese Shinto Buddhists, all Buddhists,Wiccans, Neo Pagans & the number of polytheists & Trinitarians far exceed the Muslim %!

    Also, the Quran contains loads of atrocious instructions on how to conduct our lives!

    Wife beating-Quran 4:34

    Woman’s witness in financial matters is half a man! 2:282

    Locking up lewd women in their homes till death: Quran 4:15

    Conversion or death for idolaters: Quran 9:5

    Jizya taxes for other peoples of the Book: Quran 9:29

    Amputation for theft: Quran 5:38

  25. avatar sputjam says:

    4:34 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

    2:282 O you who believe – when you transact with a loan towards a fixed period – thus you shall write them down – and it should be recorded between you – write with fairness – and the person who records must not refuse to write the way he was taught by God – thus he should write it down – and it should be read by the person himself – upon him is the rights – and let him observe God – his Lord. And he should not overlook from it the details. And if anyone on him is the rights – but is mentally incompetent or is incapable for himself of reading – thus it should be read by his representatives with fairness – and it should be witnessed – two witnesses from your men (outsiders). And if two men are not available – then one man and both the wives (of the parties) from the persons you approved from the witnesses. If one of them forgets – the one may remind the other. The witnesses must not refuse when they are called – and you shall not neglect to write them down either the minor or major details towards its fixed period. This is more just by God – and it strengthens the purpose of witnessing – and it is ideal – as it will not raise any doubts – except in buying and selling by cash that you conduct between you. Therefore there is no offence on you for not writing them down. And it must be witnessed when you trade. And never cause any hardship to the writer nor the witnesses – and if you do – thus indeed the wickedness is with you – and observe God. And God teaches you with every single thing – He is very knowledgeable

    5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources ? as a penalty for what they have earned ? to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.

  26. avatar Fawzia says:

    Sputjam,

    Even your sweetened translations don’t do away with the misogyny!

    4:34 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

    Why hasn’t Allah similarly advised women that they can admonish husbands, abandon them in their bedchambers & then separate?

    Allah addresses only MEN!!!

    2:282 O you who believe – when you transact with a loan towards a fixed period – thus you shall write them down – and it should be recorded between you – write with fairness – and the person who records must not refuse to write the way he was taught by God – thus he should write it down – and it should be read by the person himself – upon him is the rights – and let him observe God – his Lord. And he should not overlook from it the details. And if anyone on him is the rights – but is mentally incompetent or is incapable for himself of reading – thus it should be read by his representatives with fairness – and it should be witnessed – two witnesses from your men (outsiders). And if two men are not available – then one man and both the wives (of the parties) from the persons you approved from the witnesses.

    Again, however much you try to change the meanings with innovative translations, its either two men OR one man & both wives

    ie two women are needed to replace one man! 🙂

  27. avatar ET says:

    @ Fawzia

    But its scarcely the same amount of bad!

    You are right about the proportionality. It is the tu quoque syndrome and the wallowing in academic self-guilt that lames and undermines all efficient (re)action.

  28. avatar Brother Mouzone says:

    @ Fawzia

    In the interests of balance, the bible is hardly a stalwart of gender equality;

    “No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman…..Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die” (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

    Yeah… I blame that made-up bird from Genesis for all my evil urges…

    “The birth of a daughter is a loss” (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

    Classy…

    “If (after marriage)… no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death.” (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

    Hmmm, great idea except for the little fact that the hymen is incredibly fragile and can be broken a million other ways apart from losing one’s virginity… Stone her anyway!

    Religion and holy books are like Rorschach tests, you can interpret them however you want to support your own perspective.

  29. avatar Fawzia says:

    @Brother Mouzone,

    I’m an atheist, ex Muslim, certainly not a convert to another faith.

    @ Fawzia

    In the interests of balance, the bible is hardly a stalwart of gender equality;

    Nope it isn’t, it was made in a day & age when the world was far more inequal than its today,also it emerged from the patriarchal structure of the Jews, not from some matrilineal group.

    However, quite a few Christian nations are stalwarts of such gender equality, pretty much no Muslim nation is. Compare Muslim Turkey, with ts honor killings, female illiteracy to the rest of Europe.

    Hmmm, great idea except for the little fact that the hymen is incredibly fragile and can be broken a million other ways apart from losing one’s virginity… Stone her anyway!

    A very silly thing to say, & Islamic apologists probably realise this-Jews haven’t been stoning anywhere in the world for the last two millennia, which is a very long time, Christians right from the start didn’t stone, there’s few to non existence of Jewish stonings before that time too, & none of such a non virgin girl.

    Religion and holy books are like Rorschach tests, you can interpret them however you want to support your own perspective

    It might be extremely emotionally satisfying to think so, unfortunately not all religions & not all religions founders possess this ability to the same extent.

    Islam, as we know, owes a lot to Jewish Scriptures, however, Jews, by Muhammad’s time, had already banned stonings by creatively re interpreting their texts!

    Jews have lived in the mid east, besides Muslims for millennia, they still live, albeit in dwindling numbers in Iran, which stones adulteresses, Jews don’t!

    In fact, Muhammad made Jews stone adulteresses, although they had managed to outlaw the practice by then!

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:

    A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. “What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?” They replied, “Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya.” ‘Abdullah bin Salam said, “O Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.” The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, “Lift up your hand.” Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn ‘Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

    For the last two millennia, Jews haven’t stoned any adulterers or adulteresses, anywhere on earth!

    When Jews had managed to creatively do away with such behavior, shouldn’t Muhammad, as he claimed to be Last Prophet,done the same?

    Muhammad didn’t even manage to retain the improvements that Jews & Christians had made in the Abrahamic faiths by then, let alone surpass those-he was a hard headed literalist who insisted on following the texts to the last letter & bring back all sorts of barbaric, anachronistic stuff!

    Any wonder Muslims too are doing today exactly as their Prophet did-stoning, lashing, amputating & terrorizing? 😉

  30. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Though many people who have had a Near Death Experience have reported to have seen a very bright light none has, as far as I am aware, suggested that this came from the fires of hell. In fact if we may believe some of these reports dying is, uh, a rather pleasant experience.

    Recently I read an account of Somerset Maugham’s Near Death Experience in Garson Kanin’s entertaining memoir of him.

    Since Maugham was not only a novelist but also a medical man his account has slightly more value than most. Here it is in his own words, put down by Kanin soon after their talk about it (I have omitted the dots with which Kanin indicated M.’s stammer):
    “Time ended. It might have been an hour or a century. The light began to change. To my surprise, it did not grow darker – but lighter! It became iridescent, blinding. I could sense my pulse fading and my heartbeat slowing and still the light increased in intensity – and then, then the most exquisite sense of release (or did he say “relief”?) set in and continued. Very like a prolonged orgasm, if you please, but not merely of the genitals – a great final orgasm, a giving up of the whole being – body, spirit, all. I knew that the end had come and I remember being grateful to nature for making it so exceedingly pleasant.”

    The now recorded stories of NDEs have also enabled me to make sense of Goethe’s last words which were “Mehr Licht”, an utterance that was prosaically interpreted by some around him that he wanted the window shutters to be opened.

    There is a story, which might be apocryphal, that when Maugham’s real end was approaching he summoned the British philosopher Ayer, a confirmed atheist, to his bedside to receive assurances that the earthly end was really the end.

    Ironically, about twenty years later, Ayer had his own Near Death Experience when his heart failed to beat for about four minutes. He reported to have seen a very bright red light, which he took to be the Master of the Universe. This being had two underlings, two ministers, who had to supervise space. But space was slightly out of joint so that Ayer made a futile attempt to find these guardians.

    According to his own account his first words after getting back to life were: “You are all mad” but according to his doctor he said, “I have met the Supreme Being”.

    He remained an atheist however and reasoned that since there is no evidence that affairs here on earth are created and watched over by a God, likewise there is no evidence that matters in a Hereafter, if there is one, are arranged that way.

    But the experience had some effect on him. This is how he concluded his report about it:
    “My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be. They have not weakened my conviction that there is no god. I trust that my remaining an atheist will allay the anxieties of my fellow supporters of the Humanist Association, the Rationalist Press, and the South Place Ethical Society.”

Comment on “The Fires of Hell”.

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