Female Circumcision

Aug 31st, 2006, in News, Society, by

The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims.

H. Amidhan of the MUI, speaking in Banjarmasin, said that his august organisation had no problems with female circumcision, because it was a duty for Muslims, was safe and did not cause any health problems for those who underwent it.

Circumcision is especially meant to be done for a Muslim, because circumcision not only cleans the filth from the genitals but is a requirement for every Muslim, and it also helps to contribute to a child’s growth.

From the time of Abraham until that of Muhammad circumcision had been done, for both boys and girls, and it had become a part of the culture of the Muslim world, a part that could not be left behind. Those who said that circumcision caused harm had to prove their case, he said. Logic was then applied to justifying the practice, known often as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female genital cutting (FGC).

If there are those who say that circumcision causes damage or hampers reproduction then I think they have made it up. The proof is that there has been significant growth in the population of Indonesia and most Indonesians are Muslims who have been circumcised.

Not done he went on to say that circumcision was beneficial to Muslims, both men and women, because it removed the filth from the genital area. Islam approved of circumcision, for men and women again, provided it was done in the right way.

Because a Muslim must not pray unless he is clean and one way of being clean is to be circumcised.

Amidhan was not the only one of this opinion. Syamsuddin Hasan, from the Majelis Wilayah Korps Alumni Himpunan Mahasiswa Islam (KAHMI) in South Kalimantan agreed that female circumcision must not be forbidden by the authorities.

I fear that the attempt to ban it [female circumcision] is part of the mission of a certain group who deliberately use the health excuse, to the point where Muslim women will not be clean because they haven’t been circumcised, so they can’t pray in the correct way.

He advised Muslims who work in the health field to be on their guard and not co-operate in the effort to stamp out female circumcision.

September 28th. A study in six cities, Padang (West Sumatra), Serang (Banten), Bandung (West Java), Sumenep (Madura, East Java), Makassar (South Sulawesi), and Kutai Kartanegara (East Kalimantan), has shown that 90% of Indonesian women are circumcized.

Doctor Rachmat Sentika of a hospital Child Protection Unit and Dr Zaitunah Subhan of the religious section of the ministry for womens’ empowerment said that they had met with the MUI last week and been informed that the Department of Health must not try to forbid the practice. Sentika said that the MUI did object to the removal of the clitoris but that the “opening” of the clitoris was acceptable and that health professionals should be taught how to do it properly.

January 20th 2008. New York Times article saying 96% of Indonesian girls have undergone some type of circumcision. Here.


235 Comments on “Female Circumcision”

  1. avatar Parvita says:

    Kahfi: I’m with you. In Al’ Baqarah it clearly says that those who believes, believe in the Qur’an and the messages sent before, NOT after. Therefore, I believe in Qur’an, Bible, Zabur or Torah. If it is not written in Qur’an, I wouldn’t do it. Lots and lots of Moslems read more hadits than the Qur’an, which then causes fights among them.

    Female circumcision is not in the Qur’an. Male circumcision is not in the Qur’an either. But lots of people do it. If it is done because you want to do it as an adult (like if you want to have your ear pearced or a tattoo), that’s fine. But having part of your body removed when you have no say, as for children, it is against human rights.

    Bradlymail: I don’t believe that circumcision is for cleanliness reason. Female circumcision, which I read or watch on TV, is done so women don’t enjoy sex. Cleaning penis is not a big hassle, it is like cleaning your ear, back part of your ear, I don’t see circumcision for male is for health reason as well.

    Molisan Tono: when you address your ideas, please try not to push your ideas to corner other people’s beliefs. Moslems should believe in the Qur’an and all the books before it, you believe in the Bible, which is brought by Jesus, which we also believe as the one God sent to earth to save people, just like other prophets. We are here to discuss about the MUI or whatever saying FGC is a must, in which, for me, as a Moslem women, do not agree because it is not based on anything and it is against the human rights. I would think that is why we are here to discuss, not challenging each other with their beliefs. Peace, Man.

  2. avatar Bradlymail says:

    Hi guys and gals, sorry for my misinterpretation regarding this issue. For Molisan Tono, I think you are too much to hand over this issue. Please do not under estimate Islam. Thanks

  3. avatar Molisan Tono says:

    I think every body take too much pill from this issue. I never under estimated Islam, for those who got irritated by my comments please accept my apology guys.

    I believe every religion has own truth. all i see is there’s no truth at all from this issue. i against every idea that justify any reason for religion value which has not proven yet in my holy bible nor Quran.

    as i explained way before, i respect Islam as Islam it self not as opposing religion to mine. i pretty much agree to khafi in everything for what he has explain is reasonable and pretty clear to understand. if you have something to back up the reason why there is necessary for women to be circumsize, I would appreciated it. thanks

  4. avatar Agusto says:

    Now but why The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims? There must be some reason, they wont say something like this out of the blue! After all this is Indonesia the most populous Muslim country in the world (250 million)! Just in case you like numbers!
    Those people in the MUI are top notch clerics coming from all the Islamic body of Indonesia, and they are indirectly appointed by the people!
    I know many here will always disagree when I speak the truth about Islam either because out shame or anger, but let me tell you that there is this sunna that could justify this fgm thing! Take it easy ok! Don’t go into that jihad mode yet allrite!
    Now remember sunnah or tradition is the prophet saying and doing that all Muslims are supposed to emulate!

    Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41:

    Book 41, Number 5251:
    Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
    A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

    I know there are a lot of dispute amongst Islamic scholars on this issue, but they can never come up with an agreement like always! But what I worry about is if the MUI issues a fatwa for this fgm thing! You know how they like to issue fatwas on every thing from what to watch on tv to reg sms quizzes! Lets just say if they issue a fatwa on this matter, who will be the first “victim” of this “Islam” fatwa? The women will be the first victim, and for the women do you think all your so called moderate and tolerant macho Moslemen will rise up together with you to protest against this to be fatwa? I doubt it!
    Well like I always said you either bury your head in the sand or start doing something from now on, or you will risk being whipped/caned in public like they do it in Acheh! Do you think those achehnese women 2 years ago ever dreamed that they will be whipped/lashed on a podium after the Friday sermon watched by thousands of spectators? That’s what happened when you bury your head in the sand for too long , the next thing you know it will even be too late for you to cry, Acheh is still Indonesia and they are just in an introductory stage of sharia, can you imagine what will happen when they impose a full blown type sharia? So ladies take your mark! Be ready for the 7th century! MUI means business!

  5. avatar Bradlymail says:

    Molisan Tono, okay just forget it about my comment on you…maybe you were right that we had taken so much pills in this issue.

  6. avatar Molisan Tono says:

    Augusto, 250 million is Indonesia population count, not Moslems in number. you must have got a wrong source to back up your opinion.

    anyway, I don’t really get what MUI planning to do with Indonesia. just because of Indonesia is the biggest country with Moslem, it does not mean Indonesia is Islamic country. all you men back there trying to chase away all those who oppose your ideology with whip and lash. do you think it’s the right way to apply the real value of Islam?

    like I said, Islam which i knew several years back then is a tolerated and peaceful religion. I lived my childhood sharing my family property with them, now where is it?

    your last paragraph Augusto, sounds that you enjoy if all women you know got whipped on the podium for every tiny “sin” they commit? hoping to see round ass while they got whip ey?

    if you ask me what MUI up to, I don’t know… maybe next time they wanted to move Kabah to Aceh. maybe not, they mean business right?

  7. avatar Fanglong says:

    Hi friends !

    Once again I do appreciate Parvita’s opinion when she writes : “I don’t believe that circumcision is for cleanliness reason. Female circumcision, which I read or watch on TV, is done so women don’t enjoy sex. Cleaning penis is not a big hassle, it is like cleaning your ear, back part of your ear, I don’t see circumcision for male is for health reason as well.”

    So, people, what do you think of this one : “Female circumcision, which I read or watch on TV, is done so women don’t enjoy sex” ?

    Come on Augusto ! The matter’s worth a perang pena…

    Wa-s-salam ‘alaykum !

  8. avatar Agusto says:

    Molisan, moslims like numbers you know! The bigger the better! You know two years ago they said there are 1.2 billion mouslims, this year 1.5 billion! I bet by next year it ll be 1.7 billion!
    Hey what dont you understand about MUI? If you understand Islam you will understand MUI! MUI is all abt Islam! They do what ever the sunna and koran tells them to!

    “And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. ” [Qur’an 59:7]

    This is not me saying ok! its the koran!

    No i dont like the women being whipped, thats the reason i warn them not to be ignorant!

  9. avatar Molisan Tono says:

    The Messenger… I believe it was refering to Mohammed, not MUI. MUI is organization, there will no devine purpose if you carefully look after what they are doing. it was only political agenda… what your prohpet Mohammed told you to do for your nation? change them to Islam? you show me where was it written and back up your opinion.

  10. avatar Agusto says:

    Good answer molisan! But you forget to realize Muslims have to emulate prop moh! Theres that sunnah which MUI could be using to justify their fatwa, unless they wanna get rid of that sunnah! When you say political agenda do you mean by Islam political agenda? Islam is the way of life, it covers politic, economics and religion! Islam doesnt separate mosque and state! Its a whole package! Now you tell me if they are wrong if their pol agenda is making Indonesia more Islamic? They will be praised by the Muslims!

    Oh yes molisan i forget something you ask for! I hope this will do for the moment!

    003.085
    YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

    SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

    And this:

    002.193
    YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

    PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

    SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

  11. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Augsto,

    Have you read the rest of this thread? There is no justification as far as I can see for MUI to issue statements like this based on Sunnah as there is no justification of Sunnah in Al Quran. If you notice whenever it says in Al Quran to follow Prophet Mohammed it says Rasool and not Nabi, which means you are following The Messenger and by extension the message which he brought, If Allah had wished us to follow the Prophet Mohammed he would have used the word Nabi, which in all cases where it says follow he doesn’t.

    The following comes from a webstite called free minds http://www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/conflict.htm

    “In 3:7, GOD tells us that there are two types of verses in the Quran; The Mutashabihatun, (Allegorical verses which can have more than one meaning/interpretation). Then there are the Mukhamatun, (CLEAR and LAW-GIVING verses), which have NO ambiguity about them and need NO explanation whatsoever. These are the verses that lay it out CLEARLY and CONCRETELY what is lawful and what is forbidden, (honor and respect your parents, do not eat flesh of swine, do not fornicate, do not come near adultery, do not cheat the orphans from their dividends, etc.) Quite sytematically, GOD calls these verse the “essence/foundation” of the scripture, because they contain the laws and prohibitions and are thus very important for our salvation.

    GOD deliberately and systematically chose to give His Laws and Prohibitions in the clear (mukhamat) verses so that we cannot say we do not understand these laws and prohibitions and therefore we will not obey them. GOD did not put the laws, commandments and prohibitions in His revelation in the form of riddles and guess-work, and will then proceed to punish us for not understanding or picking up on these riddles and thus, not obeying/establishing them.

    Now, let’s talk about the CLEAR and LAW-GIVING verses of the Quran…

    All throughout the Quran, when GOD decrees a law or prohibition, He precedes the commandment by calling to the believers, or to the people of the book, or sometimes to mankind in general. He starts the injunction with either “Ya aayahul ‘alaytheena amanu” (Oh you who believe), or “Ya ahl il-kitab” (Oh people of the scripture), or “Ya Nnaas” (Oh mankind).

    Nowhere, NOWHERE, in the Quran does GOD EVER issue a decree to the believers, or to the followers of the scripture, or to man in general to follow hadith and sunnah of Muhammad. If it is so important, if it is absolutely necessary for our salvation, if we are in need of it for our guidance, if GOD had decreed that the believers follow hadith and sunnah, HE WOULD HAVE “CLEARLY” SAID SO in the CLEAR and LAW-GIVING verses which address the believers and followers of the scripture.

    None of GOD’s decrees, commandments, laws and prohibitions are ambiguous, in the form of riddles and left to us to guess and figure it out. Moreover, NOWHERE n the Quran is the word hadith attached to the word prophet, or to the word messenger, or to the name Muhammad. And ALL of these words are mentioned in the Quran numerous times, but NEVER together or in connection to each other. And nowhere in the Quran does GOD ever say “Oh you who believe, you must establish the sunna and follow the hadith”, or “Oh followers of the scripture, you must establish the sunna and follow hadith” and neither does He say follow the hadith and sunnah of Muhammad, or of the prophet, or of the messenger.

    Unless the commandment can be pointed out in the Quran for believers to follow hadith and sunnah, the traditionalists HAVE NO ARGUMENT!! Anything that they try come up with concerning the super-human memories of the narrators, their honesty, isnaad, science of hadith,etc. are 100% moot.

    This completely makes NULL and VOID the entire hadith and sunnah doctrine. Unless, of course, someone can point out the “LAW” or “COMMANDMENT” of establishing hadith and sunnah in the mukhamat (Law-Giving) verses of the Quran.”

  12. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi:
    check again khafi, I didn’t quote from 7-157, i quoted from 7-158 as my post had clearly shown. my typings weren’t mistaken, maybe your eyes had deceived you. was that a pathetic attempt to shake off my conviction?

    khafi, now I know what liberal interpretations meant. you interpret and comprehend the Quran the way you want it to be (Indonesian: ‘semau gue’). you liberals sounded like you’re the ‘masters’ in interpreting the Quran. you felt that you can interpret the Quran far better than anyone else. you feel like you’re the enlightened ones, and the traditionalists are just dumb cattles, don’t you?

    well if that what you think then congratulations, you have just created another sect in Islam. remember that sects and schisms appeared because some bunch of people thought they are better then the rest of their fellow men of faith. they felt that they are better in interpreting the Quran, better in understanding Islam, felt they are smarter and more enlightened, more holy, etc. name one sect in any religion that doesn’t feel that way.

    let me ask you khafi, how many Muslims believe as you believe, that we should only believe in the Quran and not the hadith? i’d say 50,000 max. now, how many Muslims are there worldwide who believed in the Quran and hadith? do you think that Allah SWT would left the majority of Muslims astray commiting shirk by believing in the hadith? while all of us plead to Allah SWT in our prayers everyday: “Show us the straight way”. but Allah SWT will only give guidance and salvation to your people (the liberals)? and the rest of us who believed in the hadith (more or less 99% of all Muslims) will rot in hell for committing shirk??

    that’s exactly how the Jews felt, that only a handful of humans (the chosen people, Jews) will receive salvation and the rest of humanity will rot in hell eternally. now, your ‘sect’ is trying to immitate their behaviour.

    lastly, have you no shame by using a hadith (which you rejected completely) as a base of argumentation? it’s like calling someone’s words as a lie, but then testify in front of a court using those lies.

    Mohammed Khafi: (Quran 3-31) Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me (Muhammad): Allah will love you and forgive your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    now, my liberal friend, I couldn’t thought of anything else but the hadith when Allah SWT said “If ye do love Allah, follow me (Muhammad)”. If He meant that we should follow only the Quran, He could’ve easily said ‘Say: If ye do love Allah, follow the Quran’ or just ‘Say: If ye do love Allah, follow Him’.

    “follow me (Muhammad)” MUST means his examples and words (sunnah and hadith), what else could it mean? how other way can we follow Muhammad, who had died 1500 years ago, if not by following his examples? if Allah SWT meant that we should follow Muhammad by following only what he had brought (Al Quran), then ‘Say: If ye do love Allah, follow this book (The Quran)’ would be clearer, don’t you think?? do you think that Allah SWT speak in “riddles” (as you mentioned) and unclear words?

    another verse 7-158 “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”

    If He meant that we should follow only the Quran, then ‘follow the book that was bestowed unto him (Al Quran), that (so) ye may be guided’ would be more decisive and will leave little doubt. considering that Allah SWT doesn’t speak in riddles.

    Allah’s SWT had clearly spoken that we should follow Muhammad’s (pbuh) examples and words, besides the Quran.
    but then you liberals would not believe that and would like to interpret it in another fashion that you deemed fit. Now do you determine what the Quran suppose to mean, or do the Quran determine what you should believe??

    ——–

    Molisan Tono: I really, really, really, don’t see the relationship between agreeing to FGC and gayhood. what a genius you are to conclude that anyone who agree to their wife being circumcised as gay. the fact that they had a wife, will leave little doubt to their sexual orientation, don’t you think?

    hmm”¦. the correlation between pro FGC and homosexuality, anyone can point that out for me? except Molisan Tono, offcourse. your comments can be mind boggling sometimes, tono. i can only conclude that you were just trying to irritate me with those words. and no, I’m not gay, if I really need to give an answer.

    and about the Quran, it claimed, it sounded, and logically it must be from a single source, God. it is not possible for any man to write anything near it’s perfection. even if the whole universe unite to imitate or create anything remotely like the Quran, it would be impossible. as for the bible, it never claimed to be from one single source, nor it ever sounded like it came from one source. Christians can only claim that the writers are “inspired” by the holy ghost. how would you know? you’re not even born yet, when they devised the nicene council.

  13. avatar Molisan Tono says:

    Augusto,
    “…Now you tell me if they are wrong if their pol agenda is making Indonesia more Islamic? They will be praised by the Muslims!”…

    I don’t see people opinions are much more important than God’s glory. is there any thing in your Quran indicate or refering to “change a country to Islam”? i mean… really…a country.

    and for you Hassan, I’m glad you’re not gay.

    you’re right that I was not born yet when bible authorized writter were inspired by Holy Ghost. but as i figured before, you don’t understand the principal of Trinity.

    in Trinity, there are “Soul, Mind and Body” of God. Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is the Soul. God, Yehuwa, Abba is the Mind; and Jesus Christ, Son of Man is the Body. so if you’re questioning about the real source of the bible, i can just simply tell you it came from God Him self. but ofcourse I don’t expect you to understand that too.

    I have explained to you, but since you have harden you heart to accept that ideology of God, so I don’t wanna waste my breath anymore Hassan, since the age of pentacostal when my Christ ascending to Heaven, He has promised to send down His Spirit which is Holy Ghost to come to us who believe in Him. that’s mean, whether aparted for almost 2000 years, Holy Ghost is here with Human. Holy Ghost communicate human toward God. you know.. like NOKIA… connecting people.

  14. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    You are quite correct in the verse numbering, my apologies for that. However that doesn’t negate the fact that it says follow the messenger and not the prophet, implicit in this is following the message!

    I don’t feel that I can interpret Al Quran better than anybody, my point is that at least I am trying, I am reading and striving to understand the words of Allah, which he has promised are uncorrupted and a guiding light!

    “A Book We have sent down, [it is] full of blessings, that men may ponder over its messages, and those who possess understanding may take them to heart ” 38: 29

    And yes, I do believe that most of the Ummah are like cattle, they follow blindly whatever they are told. In Indonesia we have millions of Muslims who read Al Quran but cannot understand the words, they are just making the sounds, if they do bother to read in Bahasa Indonesia, they are invariably lead astray by interpretation rather than translation, their religion is based on what they are told by others and not what they know for themselves.

    “They have hearts, but they understand not with them; they have eyes, but they see not with them; they have ears but they hear not with them. They are like cattle; nay they are further astray. It is they who are the heedless” 7:179

    How can what I am doing be considered sectarian when I am only following what The Prophet did, following the words of Allah? It was sectarianism which caused me to re-evaluate my belief and practices, sectarianism has only appeared since the death of The Prohet and the rise of manmade Sunnah and Hadith, if we want to go back to what was available before sectarianism we have to return to Al Quran.

    Hassan you said “do you think that Allah SWT would left the majority of Muslims astray commiting shirk by believing in the hadith?”

    Well He allowed it to happen with the Jews and the Christians didn’t He?
    Allah says in Al Quran:

    “He (Satan) said, “My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all astray. Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone.” He (God) said, “This is a law that is inviolable: you have no power over my servants; you only have power over the strayers who follow you.” 15:39-42

    Hadith? they are your Hadith Hassan, don’t you believe them now?

    Hassan when you quote “Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me (Muhammad): Allah will love you and forgive your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”” This is Prophet Mohammed talking directly to his people whilst he was alive, if he was standing in front of me I would surely follow him, but, and I know this must come as a shock, Mohammed is not with us now! I have already tried to explain to you that I feel that Sunnah and Hadith are not the words of Allah, they are not protected by him and are full of corruption. Why would I use them as a source of religious practice?

    You want clear words Hassan?

    “These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?” 45:6

    “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.” 5:99

    “Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.” 6:114

  15. avatar Parvita says:

    Quoting Augusto: “If you understand Islam you will understand MUI! MUI is all abt Islam! They do what ever the sunna and koran tells them to!”

    I am a Moslem and I don’t understand MUI. MUI is not all about Islam. MUI is “Majelis Ulama Indonesia”. We hope they make wise statements yet most of the statements that I heard come out of them are jokes at the most. I’m sorry for them. Also, they are appointed by the government and I think this is not the forum to discuss about how corrupted Indonesia is.

    Just like I’m an Indonesians but I don’t understand the DPR. They make statements that are not important as if they have nothing better to do. I’d be careful when I hear things from MUI and take it with a grain of salt. They read the Qur’an, I read the Qur’an, they can make mistakes, I can make mistakes. Mohammed cannot read when the verses were given to him, doesn’t that make you wonder that you and everybody else can learn the Qur’an yourself?

    Anyways, back to FCG, if you want to chop of part of your own genital, just do it. Just don’t force other people or children with no say to do it. If somebody says it’s a sin not to get rid of the foreskin, you’re not the one bearing the sin anyways.

  16. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi: “it says follow the messenger and not the prophet, implicit in this is following the message!” -> that is what liberal interpretation is all about. you could be right, but you could be wrong. IF you are wrong, and that we should follow the sunnah and hadith, what will you say in front of your God on judgement day? considering 99% plus of His other servants (Muslims) did not do what you do?!

    lets play a little game of logic, because I know that’s what you liberals liked to do. you do know that Allah SWT revealed the Quran the Muhammad (pbuh), so that He (Allah SWT) could establish His ‘kingdom (dominion) on earth’, which is the religion of Islam. now, suppose you’re right, that we should follow the Quran only, that will mean the rest of us (and the vast majority of us) will be committing shirk, an unforgivable sin. tell me khafi, what is Allah’s purpose for establishing a religion which will be His ‘kingdom (dominion) on earth’ if in the end 99,9% of the followers will end up rotting in hellfire? what ‘dominion’ would that be if it will only save a small percentage of its’ followers (the liberals)? so He established Islam so then he can save you guys (less than 0,01%) and throw the rest of us (99,9% plus) in hell for committing shirk??

    i don’t know man, that sounded egoistically self righteous on your part. how can Allah SWT only guide and save less than 0,01% percent of His followers, and only 0,000000000000001% maybe of His khalifa, the human race? considering all of us (Muslims) prayed and beg : “Show us the straight way” to Him every single day.

    about your statement “Well He allowed it to happen with the Jews and the Christians didn’t He?”. that’s not a correct analogy because we did not change our holy scriptures (the Quran and shahih hadith) as they did, just to fit our current needs, like you liberals wanted to do. you are following what the Jews and Christians did, you wanted the traditional interpretations of the Quran be updated to suit our modern needs, didn’t you?

    About your other statement “This is Prophet Mohammed talking directly to his people whilst he was alive, if he was standing in front of me I would surely follow him, but, and I know this must come as a shock, Mohammed is not with us now!”

    are you trying to say that Allah SWT The All-Knowing, lacked foresight? that His words will only last till Muhammad’s death? that Muslims should only follow Muhammad when he’s alive? and that His words will be obsolete after several years??

    once again you proved to me and every one, that your interpretations of the Quran are ‘semau gue’. I ask you again, do you determine what the Quran suppose to mean, or do the Quran determine what you should believe??

    (Quran 3-31) Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me (Muhammad): Allah will love you and forgive your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    it MUST mean that we should follow him and what was given to him for eternity. if you don’t believe that then you are saying that Allah’s SWT words are short lived words, and that Al Quran is not a guidance that will last for eternity.

    ———

    Molisan Tono: here’s the good part. You said : “Holy Ghost communicate human toward God.” if the holy ghost is a ‘communicator’ between humans and God, then he can’t be God, can he? how can ‘the communicator’ be the same as the One who communicates? ‘the source’ is not the same as ‘the facilitator’ you know.

    another question, if the father is the creator, the holy ghost inspires humans to do good deeds, and Jesus is the redeemer of humanity’s sins, they seemed to have different functions, but why do you call them as ‘one’. isn’t it obvious that there are three of them (doing three different functions), instead of one??

    now, can Jesus be called the creator of the universe? or the Holy Ghost be called the redeemer of human sins? or the Father be called the inspirer and the one who communicate humans and God? if a Christian does that, it would be called heresy, wouldn’t it??

    if He is one, then He could be do all those things, doesn’t matter what we call Him. if that is not the case, then all of them served a different function, and they need one another to do all those things.

    ———–

    Augusto: still at it, eh? ok, ok we give up. we are all wrong and evil, and you are all righteous and saintly. isn’t that what you wanted to hear? if that wont stop your hate campaign I don’t know what will.

    tell me Augusto, are you a professional bigot or an orientalist (someone who study the Quran to smear Muslims) wannabe? did someone payed you to do this, or did someone offered you paradise if you spread hate toward Islam?

    what’s in it for you by spreading ‘tolerance and understanding’ like what you’ve been doing?

  17. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    This comment has been moved to http://www.Indonesiamatters.com/677/Quran-hadith/#comment-3450 by admin.

  18. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan said:

    “are you trying to say that Allah SWT The All-Knowing, lacked foresight? that His words will only last till Muhammad’s death? that Muslims should only follow Muhammad when he’s alive? and that His words will be obsolete after several years??”

    No No No, I have been saying all along that Allah’s words are those in Al Quran, it is everlasting and for all time.

    You cannot follow a dead Prophet Hassan, just as you should not follow words which somebody else said came from the Prophet, the only words of the Prophet which you should follow are those in Al Quran, the only true Sunnah and Hadith of Prophet Mohammed are those contained in Al Quran.

    Peace

  19. avatar Parvita says:

    Seems like the topic has changed.
    Need to start a new thread.

  20. avatar David says:

    Following Parvita’s advice discussion of the hadith and Quran has been moved to its own thread.

    Any further comments here should be on the circumcision issue.

  21. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    I don’t really believe the thread had gone of topic at all really, we were talking about an action which was being justified on religious grounds by a supposedly religious institutuion, but using teachings which have no basis in the guidance provided by Allah in Al Quran, Allah’s complete, perfect and fully detailed book.

    Peace

  22. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohammed Khafi: just because you think so doesn’t mean what you said is the truth. the fact is the mainstream Muslims believed in the hadith and sunnah, so don’t take khafi’s word for it. The MUI did said that FGC is necessary, and that’s that.

  23. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    “They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!” 9:31

    This was a warning to the Christians, don’t you think you are making the same mistake with your scholars, ulema and with Nabi Mohammed?

  24. avatar waseem shabeer says:

    asslamo-ailikum,

    Brothers and Sisters and to all those who are reading Female Circumcision is truly a henious crime which has nothing to do with the Islamic faith but a mere distortion of the cultures of these people.

    I ask you to pass the this message on and stop this horrific butchering of our women in the name of Allah(s.w.t)

    Salaam

  25. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohamed khafi: and why would Allah SWT establish Islam as His religion if Islam were to end up like the Christians and Jews??

  26. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    Islam has been Allah’s only religion since the time of creation it is not something new it was given to the Jews and they corrupted it, it was given to the Christians and they also corrupted it, and now the Muslims have done the same. What is so difficult for you to understand about this Hassan?

    Peace

  27. avatar Hassan says:

    so Allah’s religion will always be corrupted? that’s just not making any sense! What is so difficult for you to understand about this Khafi?

    will Allah’s religion prefail? or would be inherited to small groups of people like you? I bet you would say the second point was true.

  28. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan,

    From Allah:
    MOST people, no matter what you do, will not believe. You are not asking them for any money; you simply deliver this reminder for all the people. So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly!” 12:103-106

    From Shaytan:
    He said, “Since You have honored him over me, if You respite me till the Day of Resurrection, I will possess ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, EXCEPT A FEW.” 17:62

    From Prophet Mohammed:
    The messenger said, “My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.” 25:30

    Peace

  29. avatar Erica says:

    It says nothing in the Koran about FGM and forcing it on women is disgusting and should be punishable by law because it is sexual assault.

  30. avatar Hassan says:

    Mohamed khafi: the words MOST, ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, EXCEPT A FEW are subjects of debate when we try to figure out the exact numbers. 5 billion non Muslims are MOST compared to 1,5 billions Muslims. ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, EXCEPT A FEW is also debatable if we count people since adam’s time (before Islam) till the end of days.

    what is not debatable however that Allah SWT had asmaaul husna.
    *Al-Mu’min (Guardian of Faith, The One who witnessed for Himself that no one is God but Him. And He witnessed for His believers that they are truthful in their belief that no one is God but Him.),
    *Al-Waliyy (The Protecting Friend, The Supporter),
    *Al-Walee (The Governor, The One who owns things and manages them),
    *Malik Al-Mulk (The Eternal Owner of Sovereignty, The One who controls the Dominion and gives dominion to whoever He willed)
    *Al-Haadi (The Guide, The One whom with His Guidance His believers were guided, and with His Guidance the living beings have been guided to what is beneficial for them and protected from what is harmful to them)
    *As-Salaam (The Source of Peace)
    and Ar-Rasheed (The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides).

    are you saying that the owner of those names can not prevent his religions (judaism, Christianity, and Islam) from being corrupted?? all of them are corrupted?? Ar-Rasheed can not guide most of his creation to salvation? Al-Mu’min can not prevent the faith most of his followers from corruption?
    and Al-Haadi can not guide most of his believers to the right path?

    erica: FGM was mentioned in the hadith, Islam’s second source of law. which our dear Muhammad khafI will immidiately deny, but deemed as the truth my the majority of Muslims.

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