Salafiyah, Salifi Sect in Lombok

Aug 28th, 2006, in IM Posts, by

Lombok Muslims keep up the pressure on deviant Islamic sects as the homes of Salafiyah members are attacked in the west of the island.

Hot on the heels of an attack on another fundamentalist congregation in Lombok, a Wahabi mosque last week, on the 27th in the village of Gelogor, West Lombok, hundreds of people attacked the home of Haji Sahabudin, the head of the Salafiyah group in the village.

It appears [1] that the excitable residents of the village, who carried planks of wood and rocks in their attack, objected to religious services being carried on by the Salafi sect well into the night, and to their form of Islamic teachings.

At the time of the attack the house was occupied only by Sahabudin's wife and child. Rocks were thrown at it and the mob threatened to burn it down. Police and senior figures in the village managed to prevent this however, but the house was nevertheless severely damaged.

Murni DS of the police said that previously attempts had been made to settle the dispute but some residents refused to accept the existence of the Salafiyah group. This was not the first time that homes of Salafiyah members had been attacked, he said.

Apart from the Salafiyah and Wahabi sects the Ahmadiyah have also often been targets of persecution in Lombok in recent times.

##upd

February 22nd 2008. In the same area of West Lombok about five homes belonging to Salafiyah members were attacked by a mob. Salafi members are accused of having distributed pamphlets which attacked the majority beliefs in the area, that is Ahlisunnah Waljamaah. [2]


41 Comments on “Salafiyah, Salifi Sect in Lombok”

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  1. avatar Agusto says:
    August 28th, 2006 at 2:47 pm

    Ok! Apart from the Salafiyah, Wahabism and Ahmadiyah sects it all comes down to either sunni or shia, now tell me which is the pure Islam! Even Muslims all over the world could not agree which is the real Islam, because they inteprete the verses differently, but they claim the koran is very clear and are words from Allah!

  2. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    August 28th, 2006 at 4:21 pm

    no truth, confuse about which one was the real, and keep beatting the others… what a people. Indonesia with that kind of Islam? not gonna smooth. sharia is definitely not the answer right?

  3. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 28th, 2006 at 6:14 pm

    Augusto,

    Al Quran is very clear, these people are following Sunnah and Hadith!

  4. avatar Agusto says:
    August 29th, 2006 at 1:54 pm

    Mohammed,

    Are you saying the sunnah and hadith are not clear?

  5. avatar Agusto says:
    August 29th, 2006 at 1:58 pm

    Molisan,

    Well, its sad to say but by the end of the day, shariah or not, sunni and shiite will always be killing each other!

  6. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 29th, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    Augusto,

    Sunnah and Hadith are not only unclear, they are the main cause of the corruption of the Islamic faith. Sunnah and Hadith are used as a source of teaching for intolerance and hatred, rather than the goodness contained in Al Quran. They are manmade fabrications just as Talmud and The New Testament were before them. Allah gave us Al Quran to confirm what he gave us before Al Quran, and to try and redirect those who had strayed from His path.

    “Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians, and the Sabeans, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” 2:62

    Not only did the collectors and writers of Hadith and Sunnah fabricate these lies, they used the Muslim Ummah’s almost idolatrous adoration of Nabi Mohammed, to enforce them:

    “Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah.: They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty.” 2:165

    The Prophet would never have spoken such nonsense as contained in the great majority of these books:

    “When our verses are recited for them, those who do not expect to meet us would say, ‘Bring a Quran other than this, or change it.’ Say (O Muhammad), ‘I cannot change it on my own initiative. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a terrible day.’ …Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The guilty never succeed. Yet, they idolize beside God those who possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and say, ‘These are our intercessors with God.’ …such is idol-worship.” 10:15-18

    “Shall I seek OTHER THAN THE GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ….The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of The God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think.” 6:114-116

    Most Muslims who have taken on themselves the responsibility of teaching Islam to others have themselves abandoned the Al Quran by upholding Hadith and Sunnah. They say without hesitation: “The majority of Shariah in Islam is contained outside Al Quran in books of Hadith and fiqh.” Such a saying is a direct attack on the validity of Al Quran, which claims to contain the complete Islamic law from God. We need to ask ourselves, what kind of Islam is this when you are rejecting God’s words to follow your traditions.

    “…If any do fail to judge by what Allah has sent down , they are unbelievers (Kaafiroon).” 5:45

    “…If any do fail to judge by that which Allah has sent down, they are tyrants (dhilamoon).” 5:45

    “…If any do fail to judge by that which Allah has sent down, such are evil-livers (fasikoon).” 5:47

    The Koran reports that Nabi Mohammed himself will complain to God about his so called followers abandoning Al Quran:

    “And the messenger says,”O my Lord, my OWN people have forsaken Al Quran.” 25:30

  7. avatar Agusto says:
    August 29th, 2006 at 4:10 pm

    Are you saying Muslims can disregard the sunna and hadith altogether?

    Are you saying shahih Bhukari, shahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud are all wrong?

    By the way Im not comparing Islam to other religion here, so lets stick to Islam!

  8. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 29th, 2006 at 6:35 pm

    I am not saying it, I am just repeating what Allah has said in Al Quran.

    (1) The Quran is a complete book, See Quran 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45. Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete.

    (2) The Quran is perfect; no mistakes, no falsehood, no nonsense. See Quran 41:42,12:40, 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5

    (3) The Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed. God does not do half jobs. See Quran 6:114, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111

    (4) God does not need any addition to His book. God teaches us in the Quran that He does not run out of words and that if He so willed He could have given us hundreds, thousands or millions of books besides the Quran (see Quran 18:109). Since the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, God did not give us any more books.

    (5) God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See Quran 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50.

    (6) God calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of the scholars instead of the words of God. See Quran 9:31

    (7) God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, aggressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See Quran 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59.

    (8) Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (See Quran 33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own. His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See Quran 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100 Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, see Quran 66:1 66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful. NO ONE can attribute to Muhammed a prohibition that God did not give him in the Quran. Anyone who tries to do so is admitting his/her refusal of God’s words and commandments in the Quran.

    (9) The TRUE believers KNOW that when God says something, He means it, and when He does not, He means it as well. Everything given to us in the Quran was done deliberately and everything left out was also left out deliberately. God does not forget. See Quran 19:64. We are not to add to this religion what God deliberately left out and claim it to be from Him or His messenger. His messenger has only ONE message, the Quran. God already told us He does not run out of words. See Quran18:109

    (10) God does not need us to improve on His book, the Quran, but we very much need Him for every aspect of our lives. Those who think they have some improvement on the Quran are but asking for recognition of their idols as gods besides the ONE and ONLY GOD.

    (11) God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read, see Quran 17:36.

  9. avatar Agusto says:
    August 30th, 2006 at 1:40 pm

    Mohammed,

    Thanks for the long write up! Arent we always told that the Qur’an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas).
    Any way since you are solely depending on your cherry picked verses from the Quran, im going to quote a verse too, and im also just repeating what Allah said!

    Ok, im going to give you 3 different translations of this verse so as not to say our Quran are different!
    Allah in the Quran also said:

    009.123
    By YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

    By PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

    By SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

    What do you make of this verse? If you say the Quran is clear about kaffir, it hell is! I know you are just doing what Islam is asking you to do, to defend it, no matter what it takes, even your own life to a certain extend. But please you are defending somethin that cannot be defended! Im just saying the truth about Islam, im no expert, i dont have anything against Muslim, Muslims are the victims of Islam, look arnd us today, Muslims undenyingly are practicing Islam against civilisation!
    If you love freedom, democracy and progress you should start being fair about Islam to yourself at least!
    Its sad to say but Indonesia would go down the drain if we don’t start telling the truth behind this “religion of peace”! Later buddy!

  10. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 30th, 2006 at 4:56 pm

    Augusto,

    I really don’t understand where you are coming from? Has this anything to do with the original posting?

    But to try and explain the verse quoted:

    Believers are any, who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds. it has nothing to do with being a Muslim, don’t forget that Allah gave scripture to many different races:

    “And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods …’ 16:36

    Now we have to clarify non-believers and disbelievers, non believers are obviously atheists, whilst disbelievers are those who have been given revelation but have corrupted it.

    Fight, you obviously associate with physical violence, but it can mean so much more than that, I prefer the association with mental struggle.

    To me it is quite clear that Allah expects us to to try and make the atheists and misguided return to his straight path, whether as Jews, Christians, Muslims or any other of his religions.

    Or I could interpret it as meaning that I have to kill anybody else who doesn’t believe as I do, but would that be the good thing to do? and would it even be correct?

    “There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.” 2:256

    So right or wrong? it is clear to me that violence is not the answer so the first interpretation of the verse is more likely to be correct.

    “Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!” 41:34

    Your second point about Muslims being the victims of Islam is quite incorrect, they are the victims of the Rich and Powerful and the Islamic clergy who themselves are not followers of Islam. Islam mean submission to God, the Islamic clergy only submit to Haddith and Sunnah, and because of their ignorance and corruptability they have always been a tool of the rich and powerful.

    Peace

  11. avatar Hassan says:
    August 30th, 2006 at 10:17 pm

    Augusto: it’s obvious that you had every symptoms of Islamophobia. you’ve been visiting faith freedom haven’t you? Muslims aren’t victims, better check again, maybe Christians are actually the victims. victims of your corrupt saints (paul being one of them) and emperors (constantine). Islam is “undefendable”? and how can you defend that your doctrines are ‘created’ by a council, three hundred after Jesus? you know, you might think you have a solid argument, but the truth is you don’t.

    khafi: at first i admired you eloquency and knowledge of Quran, but later i found out that you selected certain verses that suits your agendas and beliefs, but left out others that was against your sentiments. no different than our common politicians.

    this verse had to be placed on it’s proper context: “Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians, and the Sabeans, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” 2:62

    as 5:73 had clearly stated: “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but one Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them”.

    now i doubt your honesty and sincerity in quoting the Quran, Muhammad khafi. you seemed to have strong memories on certain verses but tend to forget others. a case of selective memory?

    you said “Believers are any, who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds. it has nothing to do with being a Muslim, don’t forget that Allah gave scripture to many different races” now this is the clincher, so everyone who believe in God are believers, no matter what religion he/she follows? so Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims who believe in the Day of judgement and do good deeds are the same, all of them are believers?

    you can’t be serious, my man. this is strictly against out tenets, the rukun iman and rukun Islam. even if someone didn’t believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the messenger of Allah SWT then that person is also a believer of Allah?

    you know, you might claim that you’re not one of those utankayu liberals, but you talk like one of them. maybe you’re not from utankayu, but a liberal Muslim none the less. are you sure you don’t have membership in the JIL?

  12. avatar Agusto says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 3:23 pm

    Mohammed

    Are you saying that the (atheist)unbeliever/non believer should be punished accd to the verse 9:123? While the Jews and the Christians can get away? Well I still don’t like the sound of the atheist alone being punished but it’s a good start! But unfortunately that’s not the case we should be honest and tell the truth!

    5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: “Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.” This means Christian will burned in hell! Oh My!!!

    5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: “Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve”. This means Christians are wrong about trinity for they will have a painful doom! My oh my!

    Ok that’s it for now!

  13. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 3:24 pm

    Hassan,

    I never claimed that all Christians are followers of Islam, only those who follow the Scripture from Allah, Injeel, the followers of The New Testament are certainly commiting shirk.

    “Some of the People of the Book are a nation upstanding: they recite the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and they hasten to do good works. They are in the ranks of the righteous.” 3:113-114

    Or is Allah telling lies?

    I select verses in Al Quran for their relevance to the discussion in hand, nothing more nothing less.

    It is Allah who said that He had sent messengers to every nation, it is He who will decide if they have followed His True Path. I am quite sure that He would send His wisdom in whatever form He thought would be accepted by the people to whom it was sent, be they Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu, or don’t you think that Allah is smart enough to do that?

    Why do you think acceptance of Prophet Mohammed as the messenger of Allah is linked to Islam? Do you really think that all the Prophets before Prophet Mohammed were disbelievers? Islam means submission to Allah, don’t forget that Al Quran was sent as a confirmation of what went before, the followers of these scriptures would have been Believers:

    “This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book – wherein there is no doubt – from the Lord of the worlds.” 10:37

    And just to confirm, Allah called those before the time of Prophet Mohammed Muslims:

    And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector – the Best to protect and the Best to help!

    Salaams

  14. avatar Agusto says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 3:57 pm

    Hassan

    Why do Muslims always say Islamophobia when being confronted! Lets just say im being Islamophobic do you think its too much after all what the Muslims have done to the world? Now dont give me that ” dont stereo type all Muslims”, You have to do better than that!
    The fact is terrorism is becoming the norm, we here flights, trains, tunnels, buses being blown by reg pious decent Muslims! Why cant the Muslims who dont agree with this come out and tell them that its wrong even it is allowed in the koran! Why dont they dare to do that? Koran is the source you know I know man! If we don’t dare to start telling the truth we are doom! We are going to war with the world! I dont see things getting better here in Indonesia either, if the Muslims keep trying to disintegrate the country by imposing religous law, we will disintergrate soon! I hope you agree with me on this one! Its hi time that we realized that we are living in a very pluralistic world now there is no one religion that can rule the world!

  15. avatar Hassan says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 9:01 pm

    khafi: “why does the acceptance of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah SWT is linked with Islam?” because that’s our sahadah. i testify that there is no God but God (Allah SWT) and Muhammad SAW is the messenger of God. to be a Muslim, one must accept the whole doctrine and believe system. so a person that only believed in Allah, the Quran, and the afterlife, but not accept Muhammad as the messenger of Allah SWT and also did not believe in angels and the ghaib, that person does not qualify to be a Muslim. Islam is not only about Al Quran, it’s a belief system and a way of life. you seemed to have a certain antipathy towards Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

    you also seemed to reject Prophet Muhammad’s and the scholars interpretation of Islam and the Quran, which is in the hadith and sunnah. and seemed confident on your own intrepretation of the Quran, good luck to you. I hope you are divinely guided to be able to understand, interpret, and practice all of Al Quran by yourself. you must have such a high knowledge and a free-from-mistakes mind in interpreting the Quran by yourself.

    I understand that Allah SWT called some people before the time of Prophet Mohammed Muslims, and all of the prophets before Prophet Muhammad are NOT disbelievers. all of them were foretold by Allah of Prophet Muhammad arrival as the last messenger, hence they too have accepted him. some of them even preach to their ummah of the coming of Prophet Muhammad SAW, like Moses and Isa a.s. (Jesus). so you see, Buddhists are not Muslims (because they worship a man named Siddharta, Hindus are not Muslims (a person who had submitted to Allah SWT) because they are polytheists, Christians of the new testaments are also polytheists (whether they realized it or not) and had commited shirk. those who don’t accept Prophet Muhammad as the messenger of God have not accepted the way of live that Allah had given us, which is Islam. but you’re right, it is Allah and Allah alone that can judge all of us. it is he who will decide who’s righteous and who’s not. WAllahu alam.

  16. avatar Hassan says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 9:27 pm

    Augusto: you’re not confronting, you’re lambasting and smearing. if that’s how you confront other people and your friends, you’ll be returning with a black eye and some broken ribs. confronting differs hugely from insulting and propagandizing. you’re spreading the typical anti-Islam propaganda with such inflamatory languages.

    and no, terrorism is not becoming a norm these days. of 1,5 billion Muslims, if 50% or even 20% of them had commited terrorism, now that’s when it can be called a norm. but nowadays, what’s the percentage of Muslims that had been involved with terrorism? not even 0.1% right? your just trying to generalize people and make such a big fuss about nothing.

    i can give you a better answer: in the last millenia, who had committed more violence and had killed more innocent civilians?
    the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings had killed 170.000 people in one swipe. the two world wars had killed millions of civilians. recently in Lebanon, Israel had killed 1.300 civilians in 34 days. how many Jews were fried during the holocaust? how many Iraqis and afghan lost their lives for the sake of controlling the oil? pol pot and his khmer rouge killed one million plus cambodian civilians during their reign. the native Americans were nearly wiped out by the white colonialists. the list could go even longer. but none were committed by Muslims

    you see, violence is not something exclusive to Islam, it had been a common thing throughout history. what I can’t understand is why you Islam haters must put the crimes and violence of Muslims under a microscope while neglecting and forgetting violence by other people. peace.

  17. avatar Agusto says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    Hassan

    Yes! I will not only get black some broken ribs but probly killed, thats what Muslims do to anyone who criticized it! Just like what happend to the Danish cartoonist when Muslims run amok and burnt embasys in the Muslim world!
    Not to mention what happend to Van Gogh(shot dead by a Muslim man) and Ayaan Hirshi Ali. You do know Salman Rushdie right! Theres even a fatwa to kill him by the mullah of iran! Now tell me I am spreading anti Islam, Muslim kill! What I did was only writing the truth. And you cant face the truth! I got reasons and proof for what I said!

    The problem is that 99% non terrorist Muslims are either supporting the terrorists or just keeping their head in the sand! Do you think Muslims by not doing anything mean they are against terrorism? No! If moslims do not stand up and fight their Muslim terrorists brothers those terrorist will think what they are doing are acceptable to you! Terrorist like osama, abu bkr bashir, would not last aweek if they dont get the support from Muslims! They need funding and protection from Muslims too, look at those violent Muslims org, they are above the law! Thats because they have Muslims support. I know how Muslims solidarity work! Blindly! Its high time we defend the truth for the sake of our future!

    Are you kidding Hassan i thought you know better than this! the nagasaki and hiroshima bombing had nothin to do with religion it was an attack after the pearl harbor. All your argument had nothin to do with religion! If this is the kind of argument you want to use i m not goin to response back! Why do Muslims always talk about numbers? What about intention? And are you saying that if the non Muslim kill one million Muslim then its justifed for you to kill as many!

    Of course violence is not exclusive to Islam but Muslim are doin the terrorism in the name of Islam! I will write about any other religion here if they justify their terror in the name of their religion!

  18. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 6:55 pm

    Hassan.

    The word Islam is an Arabic word meaning peace, submission and obedience. In the religious context the word Islam means total submission to the Will of Allah and obedience to His Law. The connection between the original and the religious meanings of the word is strong and obvious. Only through submission to the will of Allah and by obedience to His Law can peace be achieved:

    I certainly hold no antipathy to Prophet Mohammed and I do accept him as The Messenger of Allah, but the fact that he is called The Messenger of Allah, means following the message, not the manmade fabrications which you seem to believe are his message, why can you not understand when Allah says:

    “These are God’s revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” 45:6

    “Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

    Allah even has the Prophet say the following:

    “Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you. I do but follow that which is inspired in me, and I am but a plain warner.” 46:9

    What is inspired in The Messanger, nothing but the message!

    As for you comments about Hindus and Buddhists:

    “We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any messenger to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah: but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods.” 40:78

    Are you trying to tell me that you know what Allah has not revealed to us? You yourself know that Allah has many names! I am not saying that they are necessarily following what was revealed to them by Allah, but I certainly would not say that Allah hasn’t delivered a message to them, After all he delivered a message to the Muslim Ummah but the vast majority ignore it!

    One last point about the Messenger, your statement that “those who don’t accept Prophet Muhammad as the messenger of God have not accepted the way of life that Allah had given us, which is Islam.” is clearly refuted by the meaning of the word Islam at the top of this comment, but the thing that worries me is that your statement is so very, very similar to the Trinitarian Christians, who say “you cannot find salvation without accepting Christ Jesus as your saviour”

    Who is your Saviour Hassan? Allah or the Prophet Mohammed?

    Salaams

  19. avatar Hassan says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 8:14 pm

    khafi: my shahadah is “i testify that there is no God but God (Allah SWT) and Muhammad SAW is the messenger of God”. period. I don’t know what you believe. I don’t care what the JIL is saying, either.

    “those who don’t accept Prophet Muhammad as the messenger of God have not accepted the way of life that Allah had given us, which is Islam.” had nothing to do with salvation or the trinity. a Muslim does not automatically received guaranteed salvation as the trinitarian believed.

    Allah had many names, but NOT many personalities. like shiva, brahma, father, son, holy ghost, etc. He never represent Himself as a human being, like siddharta or Jesus.

    JIL teaching got you confused, huh?

  20. avatar Ronald says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 9:13 pm

    hi Hassan, we are guaranteed salvation by Jesus if we do what He says. You can either believe or not in Trinity but Allah is Akbar which means He can do everything what He wants to do including becoming a Man named Jesus but still resides in Heaven at the same time. That’s what I believe.

  21. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 11:30 pm

    Hassan,

    You are obviously not reading my comments carefully or just not understanding them, but why would I expect you to, you obviously don’t understand the simple words of Allah from Al Quran. Do you ever read Al Quran Hassan, do you even read your fabricated Sunnah and Hadith or are you just following what you are told, by your misguided teachers?

    “Say: Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends beside Him. Little do ye recollect!” 7:4

    “Those who heed attentively and follow the best from it; it is these whom Allah has guided, and it is these who have intelligence.” 39:18

    “Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers. Allah hath revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who hath commanded you that ye worship none save Him. This is the right religion, but most men know not.” 12:40

    And as to your Shahada:

    “All Mosques belong to Allah, so call not on anyone besides Allah.” 72:19

    It is perfectly possible for a person to accept Prophet Mohammed as The Messenger of Allah without idolatorising him, once you do that you are close to commiting shirk, if you have not done so already.

    As to the Hindus and Buddhists, did I say Allah had a personality? I clearly stated that that I was not saying that they were following the teachings of Allah, but perhaps they are like you and need a physical manifestation to hold up and idolise.

    “And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are repelled, and when those beside Him are mentioned, behold! they are glad.” 39:45

    You sound glad to me when The Prophet is mentioned Hassan.

  22. avatar Hassan says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 9:44 pm

    I need to clarify this matter: i do not “idolatorise” Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), I just accept his hadiths and sunnahs. as for why i rarely quote from the Quran is because i do not have an english translation of the Quran, and i fear mistakes if I try to translate it myself. it had change though, after i found a good Quran translation web site. you sounded as if you’re the most eloquent and a person of the highest knowledge of the Quran, the way you scorn others who do not quote the Quran.

    no, i do not follow the fabricated sunnahs, just the sahihs.

    Al Quran 16-90: Verily, Allah enjoins Al-Adl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but Allah Alone – Islamic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsan (i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allah, totally for Allahs sake and in accordance with the Sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet SAW in a perfect manner), and giving (help) to kith and kin (i.e. all that Allah has ordered you to give them e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help, etc.): and forbids Al-Fahsha (i.e all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right, etc.), and Al-Munkar (i.e all that is prohibited by Islamic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds, etc.), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression), He admonishes you, that you may take heed. – Mohsin Khan translation

  23. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 9:42 am

    Asallamu Alaikum Hassan,

    The Quran which is my baseline is a gift from The Custodian of The Two Holy Mosques King Fahd Ibn Abdul-Aziz, and is based on translations by Ustadh Abdullah Yusuf Ali, which have been comprehensively reviewed and revised by no less than four committees prior to printing. As they say “A number of individuals have in the past ventured to translate the Quran, but their works have generally been private attempts, greatly influenced by their own predudices” This translation is an attempt to produce a reliable translation free from personal bias.

    “Allah commands justice, the doing Of good, and giving to kith And kin, and He forbids All indecent deeds, and evil And rebellion: He instructs you , That ye may receive admonition.” 16:90

    As you will see, the translation which you have quoted is much different from the one in my Quran, where in this verse does it mention following Sunnah?

    Salaams

  24. avatar Hassan says:
    September 7th, 2006 at 9:37 pm

    Mohammed Khafi: we can continue to quote verses from the Quran and then provide our versions of the interpretations all day long, but I’m not interested in doing that. We have to admit that the Quran can be interpreted in many ways. Only Allah SWT knows the ultimate truth. But as for humans, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) must be said as the person who can best interpret and understand the Quran, am i right? it is almost impossible for a single person afterwards to be able to interpret the Quran perfectly, or to simply provide an interpretation and comprehension that is better than Muhammad(pbuh).

    any person or group of people who claims that they can personally give the best interpretation of the Quran without any help from the ulamas and the hadith, are either naive or arrogant.

    those people may feel that they are more enlightened, smarter, and more open minded than the rest of their (taqlid) brethrens, but in fact arrogance had clouded their hearts. are you sure the interpretations that you made by yourself are the right ones? are you sure the traditionalists are just dumb followers that Allah SWT had forsaken without guidance, and being kept shackled in their ignorance? How about IF in fact it is your liberal interpretations that had led you astray into heresy?

    can you answer to Allah SWT in judgement day IF in fact you were found to had commited heresy by saying : “at least we used our logic, and didn’t follow the traditions blindly”
    is it not true that Allah SWT had given you an example and someone to follow (Muhammad SAW), why didn’t you follow him?
    Allah SWT even said in the Quran to follow him! (7-158) which you chose to interpret differently, implicitly suggesting that Allah’s words only applied during Muhammad’s time (only follow him while he’s alive), and now it had expired.

    you do know what had destroyed the Christian faith into numerous sects and schisms, don’t you? the answer is : liberal interpretations of their scriptures. now would you like that to happen to your own religion??

  25. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 8th, 2006 at 9:07 am

    Hassan,

    Why is it so difficult for you to understand, I do follow the Prophet, but the Prophet from Al Quran, not the Prophet depicted in your Sunnah and Hadith, Allah’s Al Quran is the word of God, protected by him from corruption, Sunnah and Hadith are manmade and not protected by Allah. You have fallen into the same trap set by Shaytan that the Jews and the Christians fell into, they were given Holy Scriptures by Allah, but decided to follow their own manmade innovations, thereby being led astray from Allah’s Guiding Light.

    As for sects, it is the followers of Al Quran and the other original God given Holy Books who are the true believers because they are following what was given to them by Allah, the followers of the manmade innovations and fabrications are the cause of the sects.

    The followers of Prophet Mohammed during his lifetime and for 200 years after his death, those from before Hadith, saw the greatest passage of Islamic history, where Islam was spreading faster than at anytime, not from violence but from the goodness of Al Quran. We were leaders in education, science, medicine, democracy and law and we had the biggest libraries on earth, superb art, literature and culture. People of all religions from all over Europe came to study science, medicine and literature with us.

    After the Hadith were collected and our beloved religion was corrupted we have slowly sunk lower and lower, what is left of the glory that we once shared with the rest of the known world? We are viewed by the rest of the world as backward, uneducated, corrupt and violent, which I am ashamed to say in most cases is true.

    We have a choice, either return to Al Quran and stand up for its principles of goodness, justice, tolerance and mercy, or we can continue down the road on which we are heading.

    Peace

  26. avatar Hassan says:
    September 13th, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    Muhammad Khafi: the fact is, ever since the time of Porphet Muhammad (pbuh) in Madinah until modern days, Muslims have ALWAYS followed him, and his hadiths and sunnahs. you can’t argue with that, that’s a historical fact.

    give me a historical account when Muslims DID NOT follow the hadiths and sunnahs. you’re just trying to start something new, to save Islam. well let me tell you, you can not save Islam, only Allah SWT can. and maybe Islam doesn’t need to be saved by mere humans, it is Allah’s religion, is it not??

  27. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 14th, 2006 at 8:54 am

    Hassan,

    632 Farewell hajj pilgrimage and death of the Prophet Muhammad

    Abu Bakar is quoted as saying “”O people, verily whoever worshipped Muhammad, behold! Muhammad is indeed dead. But whoever worships God, behold! God is alive and will never die.”
    And then he concluded with a verse from the Qur’an:

    “And Muhammad is but a Messenger. Many Messengers have gone before him; if then he dies or is killed, will you turn back upon your heels?” [3:144]

    632-656 Period of the Four ‘Rightly Guided Caliphs’

    Those Caliphs who truly followed in the Prophet’s foot steps are called ‘The Rightly-Guided Caliphs’ (Al-Khulafa-ur Rashidun in Arabic). They are the first four Caliphs: Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, Uthman and Ali. All four were among thc earliest and closest Companions of the Prophet (peace be on him). They lived simple and righteous lives and strove hard for the religion of God. Their justice was impartial, their treatment of others was kind and merciful, and they were one with the people – the first among equals.

    With the death of Ali, the first and most notable phase in the history of Muslim peoples came to an end. All through this period it had been the Book of God and the true practices of His Messenger which had guided the leaders and the led, set the standards of their moral conduct and inspired their actions. It was the time when the ruler and the ruled, the rich and the poor, the powerful and the weak, were uniformly subject to the Divine Law. It was an epoch of freedom and equality, of God-consciousness and humility, of social justice which recognized no privileges, and of an impartial law which accepted no pressure groups or vested interests.

    After these four, the later Caliphs assumed the manners of kings and emperors and the true spirit of equality of ruler and ruled diminished to a considerable extent in the political life of Muslims.

    One hundred years after the death of the prophet Imam Malik starts to compile Hadith. This is during the period when the Caliphs have been described as acting as Kings and Emperors!

    Imam Maalik born 712 in Medina the first recorded compiler of Hadith.

    The rest of your precious Hadith on which your so called Sunnah of The Prophet are based were compiled much later:

    Imam Bokhari born 810 in Samarqand
    Imam Muslim born 821 in Nishapur, Iran
    Imam Abu-Daood born 817 in Sindh-Kabul
    Imam Ibn Maja born 824 in Qazween, Iraq
    Imam Tirmidhi born 824 in Tirmidh, Balkh
    Imam Nasaai born 829 in Khurasan, Iran

    You will also note that only one of the above noted compilers of Hadith was even from Arabia!

    And it is only during the period 847-61 during the Caliphate of al-Mutawakkil that the doctrine of the ahl al-hadith is recognised as orthodoxy.

    Now that Hassan is an ‘Historical Account’.

  28. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 14th, 2006 at 11:01 am

    I’m no expert. but it’s interesting to follow… keep talkin guys

  29. avatar Hassan says:
    September 21st, 2006 at 10:46 pm

    i and the rest of our conservative Muslims does not worship Muhammad (pbuh), stop saying that because it’s just so degenerating.

    Muslims have always followed Muhammad’s (pbuh) example ever since his time in medina, during the times of the four rightly guided caliphs, and untill recent times. before the compilation of the hadith and sunnah, the hadith and sunnah were always perserved orally. as in the case of the Quran. if you argued that the sunnah and hadith were corrupted just because it was compiled years after Muhammad’s (pbuh) death, then al Quran was also compiled after the prophet’s death.

    I ask you this: if following the sunnah and hadith were an act of bid’ah, then how come 99,99% of Muslims followed it? was it the 99,99% who were the heretics, or was it the 0,001% liberals like you? would Islam the religion of salvation only save 0,001% of their followers and burn the other 99,99%?? think about it!

  30. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 22nd, 2006 at 12:34 am

    Hassan,

    I didn’t say that in my last comment Hassan it was an historical quote from Abu Bakar.

    Al Quran is protected by Allah, He says that nothing shall approach it from in front or behind, nothing can change it, where does he say that for Sunnah and Hadith Hassan?

    You said: “I ask you this: if following the sunnah and hadith were an act of bid’ah, then how come 99,99% of Muslims followed it?”

    All I can say to that is that Shaytan is a pretty powerful enemy of Mankind.

    “We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, “Fall prostrate before Adam.” They fell prostrate, except Shaytan; he was not with the prostrators.
    He said, “What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?” He said, “I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud.”
    He said, “Therefore, you must go down, for you are not to be arrogant here. Get out; you are debased.”
    He said, “Grant me a respite, until the Day of Resurrection.”
    He said, “You are granted a respite.”
    He said, “Since You have willed that I go astray,* I will skulk for them on Your straight path.
    “I will come to them from before them, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left, and You will find that most of them are unappreciative.”
    He said, “Get out therefrom, despised and defeated. Those among them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all. 7:11-18

    He even misled Adam and Halwa.

    “As for you, Adam, dwell with your wife in Paradise, and eat therefrom as you please, but do not approach this one tree, lest you fall in sin.”
    The devil whispered to them, in order to reveal their bodies, which were invisible to them. He said, “Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree, except to prevent you from becoming angels, and from attaining eternal existence.”
    He swore to them, “I am giving you good advice.” 7:19-21

    You see Shaytan has been working his evil against Mankind for such a long time!

    One last thing Hassan, I do think about it, I think about it a great deal, that is why I want people to follow Allah’s Guiding Light rather than manmade fabrications, I am sure that Allah will forgive as long as people do not go to the grave believing his guidance is not enough.

    Peace Brother

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