Juvenile Crime & Punishment

Aug 10th, 2009, in IM Posts, by

Child crime, the convictions of ten boys aged under 16 for playing a gambling game in Tangerang.

Ten boys, aged 12 to 16, were arrested at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport in late May after police claimed they were playing a coin-tossing game for a 1,000 rupiah (10 cents) prize and shining shoes without a license.

They were held in custody for a month and on July 27th were tried in a Tangerang court and found guilty of gambling, but received no punishment.


Some of the boys, required to wear fun masks at the trial, supposedly to hide their identities

While attending a function to mark World Childrens' Day on 2nd August in Jakarta vice president Jusuf Kalla said of the case

It's a dilemma. Whatever the reason children must not be allowed to get involved in gambling. They need to be watched over and guided away from such things.

Kalla said however that prison was not the right place for children caught gambling, and nor should they be tried in court. [1]

While almost all commentators voiced similar sentiments, that handling the matter through the criminal justice system was not appropriate, presiding Judge Retno Pujiningtyas believed that convicting the boys of gambling was necessary to send them a stern message not to gamble again.


71 Comments on “Juvenile Crime & Punishment”

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  1. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 13th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    This is how the Indonesian legal system justify themselves by teaching young thugs to be bigger thugs being an older thugs themselves.

  2. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 13th, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    That argumennt rings hollow. So, would you care to explain why British Police officers aren’t being charged for Amex credit card fraud, why half the British MP were found to have fiddled their expenses and yet nothing was done? Joe public gets caught he will get slung in clink.

    Life is like that buddy, it’s a shit sandwich, the more bread you have, the less shit you eat.

  3. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 7:16 am

    Nice to hear that.

    Life is like that buddy, it’s a shit sandwich, the more bread you have, the less shit you eat.

    Understandable, the more bread your were given to eat the less shit you go for.

    But Britain does not necessarily be in this category and that your comments were base on a legal system that differs much from that of Indonesia.

    You don’t find Staatsblan 1917 Jo 130. you will never find things like Warga Keturunan Cina. But in Indonesia despite the fact the decree were passed down the practice still going on.

    Imagine a person can walk away from rape charge with 2 to 3 years imprisonment. Unless and otherwise challenge in public media most of the murder or killing cases gets away with very light sentence.

    Considering the teens in their school uniforms committed what was thought to have been done by adults.

    Can you see the difference in the legal system and a legal system!

    There are many many more like laws that were revised / abolish wrongly or with intent, those that were passed the baton did nothing to make things better to correct the situation.

    Bombers except the extra highlighted amrozi Cs most of them hide under the shadow of religion and clerics whereas law enforcement officers were simply outwitted.

    Not forgetting that most of those Judges, lawyers in Indonesia do go after money more than the case itself.

    Still not convinced! Let me relate something to you. There is a case where warga Muslim erect homes and make shift shops on Government property without any papers right in front of houses that were given HGB. Not only does they create chaos in the surroinding, they behave as thought it is their right to do so and intimidate people staying in the surrounding. Someone from that perumaha kumuh liar even went to the extent of stealing automobiles belonging to rightful residents there. When the police were called in the resident was extorted by the police and judge to recover their stolen vehicle. What next? This guy caught red handed in the possession of the vehicle was let go free and the resident with a big hole in his pocket.

    It must be great feeling when thieves are vindicated. Can you think of anywhere in the world except Indonesia that has these?

  4. avatar Oigal says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    So, would you care to explain why British Police officers aren’t being charged for Amex credit card fraud, why half the British MP were found to have fiddled their expenses and yet nothing was done?

    Interesting point the above, all too often the comments made here about corruption and general bastardery are taken as being from a “holier than thou” attitude as if only Indonesians (or all Indonesians) are corrupt bastards. This of course is rubbish, money and power invairably attracts the nasty and thieves (a better class ? of thief perhaps but a thief none the less).

    The primary difference is in my opinion the role of the press/media. Western press in particular british and australian live to expose the scandalous, the nasty and the light fingered and the selective culling process at least keeps a control of sorts. Unfortunately Indonesian press (for a number of reasons, not the least I suspect being personal health) have yet to live up to the ideals of a free and independant voice of the people. There are notable exceptions however as rule the press remains the plaything of the powerful elite..witness Lapindo, Munir and the sad excuse for prez debates.

  5. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    DragonWall Said….Imagine a person can walk away from rape charge with 2 to 3 years imprisonment.”…….

    Whoops :-

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2567304/65000-lags-freed-early-by-Gordon-Brown.html

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2570363/Monster-mum-of-Baby-P-appeals.html

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/1982153/Baby-rapist-Tanya-French-is-living-in-a-safe-house-after-he-early-release-from-jail-for-helping-Alan-Webster-rape-a-baby.html

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/865402/Lags-Early-release-90-a-day-Prison-overcrowding.html

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/984293/Prison-overcrowding-Pervs-released-early-Labour-early-release.html

  6. avatar Rob says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    I thought the post was about juvenile crime and punishment, and not about keturunan Cina.

    Oh well, I guess there are just some things that you cannot separate.

  7. avatar diego says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    @Rob:

    Oh well, I guess there are just some things that you cannot separate

    Ha ha ha… nice punch. But isn’t it a borderline racist remark? Let’s see what dragie “thinks” about that. :P

  8. avatar Rob says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    @ Diego…

    Racist? Not sure that I follow.

    What I was trying to say that for some people everything is linked no matter how distant they seem. I really don’t see the link between the Keturunan Cina and juvenile justice (even as an indictment of the whole Indonesian justice system).

  9. avatar David says:
    August 14th, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    Suryo, nice to see The Sun is still keeping up the good fight, some of those sentences do seem incredibly lax, and why on earth do they keep calling it ‘life sentence’ when it doesn’t mean ‘life sentence’ at all…

  10. avatar dragonwall says:
    August 15th, 2009 at 12:03 am

    Of all the links that was posted, did you care to introspect the details of which was written?

    What I am referring to is “the legal system” and “a legal system”. Well I am very sure you didn’t get it well enough.

    Those that you posted were sentence to imprisonment and they were having kind of early release. The US us also doing the same now because of maintenance costs.

    What was reported were those that were found guilty and was sentenc in accordance with the appropriate law and there is a legal system. Where as in Indonesia that is the legal sytem that was inherited from beyond Colonial days and what was suppose to be enforce in an appropriate manner were not whereas those that was not suppose to be present any longer were rampant used.

    I am not sure if Rob’s referrence to Keturunan Cina has any concern to this, perhaps there is something you might like to work on and see if it is the legal system that matters.

    You even said

    Oh well, I guess there are just some things that you cannot separate.

    Commonwealth country does not carry death penalties. But considered it lax may perhaps be a less appropriate because culprits had their sentence passed down on them and time serve. What comes next is economic burden.

    But in Indonesia you may want to consider in this case that it is as though there were no person caught, though brought to the court, as though no sentence passed and nothing seemed to have been commited by these people because they were Pribumis. Top to bottom. What is commented here is not a racist remarks but the whole legal system and punishments seemed to have set the pace.

    Try and pick out a case whereas Chinese being caught for something. That guy is sure to have sentence passed and serve time to the max. So is there prejudice, discriminative or racist?

    Take another example when a Chinese guy drive his car into a ojek, what happen? Then try this for size. If a supir Metromini drives his bus into a ravine or crowd, then what happen. Very likely he will be “gebukin”. But if he drives his bus into a Chinese guys mercedes then what happen? I am sure you know the speculation job.

    That is the legal system of Indonesia and not a legal system you can rely on. Try speculate on this and we compare legal system and what is thought to be appropriate seemed too much for them to swallow.

  11. avatar diego says:
    August 15th, 2009 at 2:59 am

    This is a serious note, not my usual dragie-boy-lubricant-lover teasing:

    Dragonwall, way to many times you drive some random conversation to “keturunan-china”-”pribumi” thing. Your motive really is dubious. You’re seem to be the one who actually wants to preserve / prolong / recreate the tension, like opening a wound that’s in the process of healing.

  12. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 15th, 2009 at 7:08 am

    Dragonwall said “Well I am very sure you didn’t get it well enough.”

    Odd that, I think I got it quite well. I also think that you’ve set your stall out too, as Diego mentions, you seem to have a not so hidden agenda here.

    But in Indonesia you may want to consider in this case that it is as though there were no person caught, though brought to the court, as though no sentence passed and nothing seemed to have been commited by these people because they were Pribumis. Top to bottom. What is commented here is not a racist remarks but the whole legal system and punishments seemed to have set the pace.

    Well I think a month in clink may well deter them from doing it again, don’t you? They are kids that in truth just needed a smack up the side of the ear’ole and sending on their way, I suggest that their time in detention would not have been quite the same as a prison in the UK.

    Take another example when a Chinese guy drive his car into a ojek, what happen? Then try this for size. If a supir Metromini drives his bus into a ravine or crowd, then what happen. Very likely he will be “gebukin”. But if he drives his bus into a Chinese guys mercedes then what happen? I am sure you know the speculation job.

    No, as a matter of fact, I don’t know the “speculation job” – would you care to clarify for me?

  13. avatar dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 1:34 am

    Either you are not what you are or claim to be what you are and you can clink to him as much as you like.

    They are kids? Very likely what you said quite reflects that you didn’t even know th joint well enough.

    just needed a smack up the side of the ear’ole

    try to speak like a Brits. So when they rape someone, it’s ok they are kids right?

    The latter part of the quote like I said “speculation job” shows that you are not someone familiar to the grounds in Indonesia. So the name you called yourself shows that you are speaking behind a mask and not reality. No wonder you just clink together.

    Anyone who have live in Indonesia his life can tell you what could happened. Since you are not then the clarification needs to be done by someone else.

  14. avatar dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 4:01 am

    There are people who thinks this to be the case

    way to many times you drive some random conversation to “keturunan-china”-”pribumi” thing.

    In daily life when there is someone who makes a mistake and that involves law enforcement then there is no such things as what is quoted above.

    Perhaps you are telling people that there is no such things happening in Indonesia and that you have never seen any of such happen in Indonesia.

    Take for example in the US. There are many crime gang and involves mostly latinos, filipinos, black caucasin and chinese from all over.

    Some of them are being discriminated in this country too. When law enforcement officers were called into the scene things of that sort happened. Most of all it is not that matter but there is legal system to have them indicted whether juvenile or adults. When that was effected then the discrimination part is being eliminated. No one is let off freely with having a judgement passed down on them.

    In Indonesia the vast difference is that in daily life when you are a minority and when it involves an accident this will happened because you are a minority. So there is no such things as a national healing process. Thee has never been a healing process not that I a pessimistic.

    And it is regretful to say whether you like it or not it is omnipresent.

    When the Uighurs in Urumqi and Heilongjiang stage a revolt there are two things that was thought to have been present.
    1. Outside influence 2. The supposedly suppression and oppression.

    In politics No 1 is always present and there is no such things as in No 2 but considered it control.

    But the incident subside because none of those were present except some disgrunted residents who dislike the transmigration project the Chinese Government implemented.

    Similarly to what the Indonesian Government implemented the transmigration projects with Maduras into Kalimantan that cause the civil commotion. What happened then?

    Those that case trouble were being prosecuted similarly in China and Kalimatan. And yet there are people who speculate that there were segregation or persecution towards the Uighurs in China and threatening the Chinese Government.

    In Indonesia if you are a Chinese and even though your car is being hit by another car driven by a pribumi you are bound to be persecuted whether or not the police is present. At the end of the day the Chinese guy will be asked to pay for damage and bribe the police. Whereas for the pribumi you think it yourself.

    So whether or not there is random conversation whom you considered to have turned into a keturunan issue or not you be the judge.

  15. avatar Odinius says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 6:08 am

    Dragonwall:

    Those that case trouble were being prosecuted similarly in China and Kalimatan. And yet there are people who speculate that there were segregation or persecution towards the Uighurs in China and threatening the Chinese Government.

    Are you joking? The Indonesian government barely arrested any Dayaks or Malays for the vicious attacks on the Madurese. There were almost no prosecutions at all, nor have most of the Madurese who survived been resettled or compensated for their losses.

  16. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 6:37 am

    Are you joking!

    The Indonesian government barely arrested any Dayaks or Malays for the vicious attacks on the Madurese

    Well you said barely. Why? Is it because there were no evidence against them? Is it because there were fearing reprisals?

    The Uighurs incident led to arrest of many many people, so why when there were incidents in Kalimantan involving Madurese there were no arrests?

    Similarly to the case in 1998 riot they were all caught on tape and broadcasted throughtout the world and yet no one was prosecuted!

    Even when Arief Kushariadi the Chief of Navy Command at Cilandak had summed up that Wiranto and Prabowo was the main culprit of the 1998 riot assisted by Syafrie Syamsuddin. He was removed from his post and Syafrie got the promotion.

    What does this indicates.

    Whether or not you could be the better judge instead of trying to argue your way out.
    I do suppose this and these are the norms, right?

  17. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 6:51 am

    Either you are not what you are or claim to be what you are and you can clink to him as much as you like.

    They are kids? Very likely what you said quite reflects that you didn’t even know th joint well enough.

    just needed a smack up the side of the ear’ole

    try to speak like a Brits. So when they rape someone, it’s ok they are kids right?

    The latter part of the quote like I said “speculation job” shows that you are not someone familiar to the grounds in Indonesia. So the name you called yourself shows that you are speaking behind a mask and not reality. No wonder you just clink together.

    Anyone who have live in Indonesia his life can tell you what could happened. Since you are not then the clarification needs to be done by someone else.

    Just take a step back Kimosabi.

    I am suggesting that a month in gaol for our budding Kray twins was probably enough, I’m sorry if you don’t understand my written english, but I’d thought i’d got my point across. Whilst I am generally in favour of stringing up pencuri pithik, do you not think that “old sparkey” is a bit severe?

    Now let’s get back to a couple of basics. Don’t dare to presume who I may be and what I may know, It’s quite clear to me however that you are a HITACHI with a huge chip on your shoulder, deal with your own prejudice first before worrying about me. You seem obsessed by merc driving charlie-farlies getting different treatment to ojek riding pribumi’s – it’s actually not like that in real life.

    I think I’m beginning to dislike you.

  18. avatar Rob says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 8:16 am

    @ Dragonwall…

    Mate, on the claiming to be or not to be something is always an interesting proposition between pen names ;)

    On the original post. We are talking about ten kids who shine shoes when they are not in school. These kids by some chance of fate are poor, their families are poor, their lives are difficult. To supplement the “family” income they work. I cannot imagine what it must be like because when I was in primary school and needed something I just hit my folks up for the cash.

    These ten kids in a moment between shoe shining jobs decided to toss a few coins and exchange them on the outcome of the toss. They are not rapists. Your point is way off base. Even if you were trying to say that the tossing of coins will lead these kids into a life of crime, including rape, is a long bow to draw. It might also teach them values that will make them excellent members of the business community in the future, they may even employ your children or your children’s children.

    Transmigration, the Dayaks and the Madurese in Kalimantan, the riots of 1998, and the Uighurs have very little relevance to this post on juvenile crime in Indonesia or this particular case. Even in a law and order sense.

    This is not even an Indonesian Chinese issue even in the law and order sense. It has nothing to do with Mercedes driving Indonesian Chinese or Pribumi ojek riders. This is simply a case of any post will do to convey your message. Indonesia is a bad place for Indonesians of ethnic Chinese descent. More specifically, it is probably the case that it has been a place where you have endured bad experiences and then have decided to project those as a generalization on to everyone else as their collective experience as well.

    Hence, my original point that, I guess some things cannot be separated.

    To each his own. The prosecution of these kids was wrong. It could have been dealt with, if it needed to be dealt with, by talking to and warning these kids and their parents. It did not require them to be detained, and it did not require a trial. The spirit of the arrest and prosecution seems, at least to me, to be against the spirit of the law. If this case shows anything outside of the immediate prosecution of the children involved, then it is that law enforcement in Indonesia obviously have nothing better to do like catching real criminals committing real crimes.

  19. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 8:52 am

    Rob, if they (the kids) had of been chinese, I suggest that this may not have been an issue for Dragonwall. As it is because they are “arek ndeso” , Dragonwall is preparing the electric chair.

  20. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Just take a step back Kimosabi.

    Whether you began to like or dislike is your perogative. YOU GUYS DIDN’T, I SUPPOSE, NOTICE THAT I DIDN’T EVEN MENTION COIN TOSSING. who bothers about coin tossing or card playing.

    NOTICEABLY THAT THERE ARE SOMTHING MISSING. I am referring to “the legal system” and a “legal system”.

    Have I disputed

    Whilst I am generally in favour of stringing up pencuri pithik, do you not think that “old sparkey” is a bit severe?

    There is nothing light or severe when it comes to a legal system.

    Now let’s get back to a couple of basics. Don’t dare to presume who I may be and what I may know, It’s quite clear to me however that you are a HITACHI with a huge chip on your shoulder, deal with your own prejudice first before worrying about me. You seem obsessed by merc driving charlie-farlies getting different treatment to ojek riding pribumi’s – it’s actually not like that in real life.

    So? If I am a HITACHI or GARUDA so? I am bringing an example out of real life which definitely and seemingly to your disliking. And by saying “it’s actually not like that in real life” had showed that you know nothing in real life in Indonesia, sort of to say. Perhaps those that you have seen were just moderately remote.

    So as for “I think I’m beginning to dislike you” is not going to be my business.

    Like what you have said

    To supplement the “family” income they work.

    Not one is disputing with that.

    It might also teach them values that will make them excellent members of the business community in the future

    That must be great, if and that is if.

    Transmigration, the Dayaks and the Madurese in Kalimantan, the riots of 1998, and the Uighurs have very little relevance to this post on juvenile crime in Indonesia or this particular case.

    So this is what you gather in the legal system of Indonesia then good for you.

    This is simply a case of any post will do to convey your message and yes you did. Repeating that once again that

    “with Mercedes driving Indonesian Chinese or Pribumi ojek riders,

    of which I am driving a message across so that there is no mistake in understanding that there are no proper legal system in Indonesia except on face value that detriments were being passed on prejudicial judgement.

    I definitely agreed with you that

    “Indonesia is a bad place for Indonesians of ethnic Chinese descent. More specifically, it is probably the case that it has been a place where you have endured bad experiences and then have decided to project those as a generalization on to everyone else as their collective experience as well.”

    law enforcement in Indonesia obviously have nothing better to do like catching real criminals committing real crimes.

    You agreed with this, meaning? so do we see something here?

    It is so regretful that you have to feel that way by saying

    Dragonwall is preparing the electric chair.

    I didn’t even mentioned that when you have failed to understand. Have you see alleged and convicted rapists, and so on, being let off easily after they skin head themselves and wearing a peji in court? what kind of sentence they receive? Compare that to Britains, Australia and US or any other asian countries.

    Perhaps by then you coudl digest better. Once again no one is forcing you to like or dislike.

  21. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Don’t attempt to haphazardly patronize me, let’s turn this on it tail for a moment.

    Before commenting on the UK, have you been there and studied it’s legal system, have you seen how lenient sentences are and how quick murderers can be released on license? No, of course you haven’t, or you want not use the UK at least to illustrate your cause.

    Do you call a month in gaol “being let of so easily” – Jesus, George and Michael, I wouldn’t fancy it for playing a game of penny-up-the-wall and not having a shoe shine license. Do you not think that a good telling off and clearing them off the premises would have been enough? After a month in clink, what should the sentence of the Court have been then Judge Dragonwall – forget what the law prescribes, I want to know what you think it should have been?

    I put it to you that I know a great deal about real life here in Indonesia, unfortunately there are still fossils like you lurking around who think that the Chinese get picked on.
    Why bother whining about a couple of kids who weren’t flogged for a couple of games and not being licensed, when what you actually what to do is complain that you are hard done by as an Indo-Chinese (note the reversal from chinese-Indonesian).

    I reckon that you have the hump because you can’t afford a big merc to flatten becaks with – how close to the truth am I?

  22. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    F_8K*_G ZERO.

  23. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Obviously nailed it.

  24. avatar Odinius says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Er, Suryo…there is still plenty of anti-Chinese racism in Indonesia. Sure it’s getting better all the time, but it’s hardly water under the bridge either. Surely anyone who knows “a great deal about real life here in Indonesia” knows this.

  25. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    What is this crap? do I have to pass a “life in jawa” test now? I know what there was and is regarding anti-chinese feeling, I also know how sometimes chinese can behave in such a manner as to encourage this.

    We aren’t talking about that though are we? we are talking about Dragonwall complaining that a month in clink and then release wasn’t sufficient punishment for those kids, then he crapped on about “if it was a chinese” blah blah blah, and then some odd comment about a chinese guy flattening a becak, and it rambled on from that. There were comments that justice in the UK was in some way fairer, something that is not necessaril proven.

    I live a pretty “real life”, I’m just watching Derings on TransTV, and the Changcuters are on next, I intend to nip into the depot bangunan after lunch (Shepherds Pie and Siomay), I’ve just regrouted the bathroom floor as the original grout had started to drop out, I also intend to strip the brakes out of the car tomorrow and polish the wheel cylinder pistons in my little lathe – I suppose I could also try and find a rich chinese and ride my becak into his Merc to find out if he gets cross. Oh and just out of interest, we are the only ones in the street with our merah putih melayang for tomorrow.

    Did you want me to put my blangkon on, my batik shirt that I got for my birthday and my gajah duduk sarung? would that be local enough for you?

  26. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Damn right you are and that is

    F_8K*_G ZERO + Know nothing = nailed it.

    Read my lips so that you understand better in what others are talking about.

    I said

    Indonesian legal system justify themselves by teaching young thugs to be bigger thugs being an older thugs themselves.

    Meaning these Older Thugs were teaching the Young Thugs to be Bigger thugs. And what does that say. After staying in the prison for a month these yougsters will become even more hardcore when they leave the joint, your gaol and clink.

    I am a Hitam Tapi Cina yes because I have a dark complexion and obviously a Chinese. But you failed to know that I am not an Indon Chinese nor a Chinese Indonesian but someone who have live in Indonesia for the last 20 years and have been doing business with Indonesians since I was a kid.

    You have been outdated because you didn’t know that I am a Singaporean. And damn right you are that I know about British law because Singapore inherits and better the British Legal System to be deterrent enough by sending dicks like you scurring away from that country. Electric chair is not cruel enough comparing to Hang To Death and have your heels cut to make sure the person is dead after David Marshall champion the grey spots in Singapore’s legal system. This is what I term it as a legal system.

    the legal system in Indonesia is that they did not know what they are doing by sending kids to jail for a month and release them when the time like what you said of spending a month in the gaol is nasty enough therefpre the older thug had turn a young thug into bigger thug because the police does not know what they are doing what is right and what is wrong as long as they have a case going on to warm their seat.

    Obviously you have not been staying long enough in Indonesia to understand what is going on. Your daily experience may spelt off as money well spent to smiling faces. You have never come face to face with such predicaments but I am speaking from facts and personal experience. You have nothing to challenge the encounters many of them face in Indonesia.

    Though rightfully speaking its getting better with hardly water under bridges. Still there are incidents happening everwhere. What i am referring to regarding people stealing from the chinese are from PKL and they get off easily after the victims were extorted of large sum of money. This happened only recently. to a friend of mine. I cannot name the place because it will become prominent in exposing who the person I am referring especially it involves the judge and police in Indonesia. So if you know nothing don’t argue your way out.

    You may claim to be leading a rather real life in Indonesia just because you out on your blangkon sitting on a gajah putih and it will still say that you are not Indonesian. And by watching the transTV and Changcutters with Siomay in your mouth from your depot bangunan will not make you a better person either in understanding Indonesian matters.

    The bottom line is that:

    IF INDONESIA HAVE A GOOD LEGAL SYSTEM. ALL THESE WILL GO AWAY INCLUDING DISCRIMINATION, UNWARRANTED PERSECUTION AND SO ULTIMATELY THERE WILL BE NO SUCH THINGS AS PEOPLE BEING LET OFF WITH LIGHT SENTENCE ON A MAJOR CRIME. OR SOMEONE BEING WRONGLY SENT TO JAIL FOR PETTY MATTERS, THEN AUTOMATICALLY DURING THE PROCESS THE ANTI-CHINESE SENTIMENT WILL SLOWLY GO AWAY. THEN YOU CAN TERM IT AS A NATIONAL HEALING PROCESS.

  27. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Blah Blah Black Sheep Have You Any Wool.
    Little Wonder You Are The Fool

  28. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Oh one more thing I forget to mention like what you said

    I also know how sometimes chinese can behave in such a manner as to encourage this.

    Because this will eventually drive the kurs rupiah to perhaps 50,000 to a USD.

    And there is someone waiting to send in the right punch……

  29. avatar Rob says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    @ All…

    It is always interesting how the “debates” on IM ultimately end up as personal slanging matches at some point in their evolution.

    It is not really about who has a right to say what, or whether you meet some arbitrary definition of local, or whether having lived as a guest in one country for an extended period gives you more accurate insights than some other.

    This post was a post about juvenile justice. If Dragonwall’s only point was that institutionalizing young offenders in a justice system leads them to (probably exposes would be a better choice) bigger and badder crimes, then so be it. This though was not Dragonwall’s only point. To me it seemed as though it was a throw away point to a larger grievance with Indonesia’s legal system and how it discriminates against Indonesians of Chinese ancestry. For me, this went beyond the scope of the original post and hence my comments.

    I am not arguing that discrimination is not prevalent in the Indonesian legal system. I am also not arguing that it is a legal or justice system that is corruption free. If these kids had money they would not have been where they were in the first place, but more importantly, if they were, then their parents could have negotiated a settlement prior to this going to trial. A settlement could probably have been reached before the paperwork finalizing the arrest was completed.

    Are Indonesians of Chinese ancestry still discriminated against, most definitely. And, it is not an urban vs. rural problem. The laws that discriminated against the Indonesian Chinese to all intents and purpose, at least in theory, are off the books. The reality to which Dragonwall alludes is that in practice the all intents and purposes part disappears. I know it exists as I have friends who have been exposed to and suffered at the hands of unscrupulous public officials.

    The idea that a process of national healing and truth about 1998 will heal all wounds is naive at best. Justice will help but it will never be water under the bridge. And, for those who lost loved ones or were directly affected / effected by the brutality of that May will never allow bygones to be bygones.

    @ Dragonwall…

    Mate, it was not hard to work out that you were not Indonesian. However, the beauty of a pen name and the ability to pretend to be something one is not, could mean that you are in fact an Indonesian pretending to be a Singaporean. If you get what I mean.

    I was not arguing that the legal or justice system in Indonesia is perfect. I have spent a long time working in it, so I do have a little bit of an understanding of what goes on. However, admirable as it is, your belief that a better legal or justice system will solve Indonesia’s problems needs clarification. Are we talking about the regulatory framework or are we talking about enforcement?

    My only point to you was that it would seem that some things cannot be separated; like justice / law and Indonesian Chinese. The post on juvenile justice really did not lend itself to a critique of how Indonesian Chinese suffer at the hands of the Indonesian legal system. You seem to think that it does. So, on that point we will have to agree to disagree.

  30. avatar Dragonwall says:
    August 16th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    Ha… ha… ha… nice try on this

    could mean that you are in fact an Indonesian pretending to be a Singaporean.

    But hard luck. No elaborations needed.

    Understandable on your very vague view points it is with all intent vividly agreed to disagree.

    Should you have taken a closer look into the judiciary system on how it work from A to Z beginning from the time of enforcement since colonical days and the continued usage by the New Order, then several changes made with intent to further persecute minorities had shed light that Yusril Ihza Mahendra had designed some of it to favor a certain religion and that the system was amended to benefit their people and not this society clearly shows of a partial system and that to further segregate another who were minorities. This is what I called The System.

    So how you look into that I don’t know.

    On the Regulatory part it has been largely manipulated.
    On the Enforcement part they were grossly over manipulated.
    On the Framework part it is designed to for manipulation.

    You are right! Under The System somethings cannot be separated and that is discrimination and racial unjust.

    Can you find this system in Britain, Australia, US, Europe and other Asian countries? If so please name us one of them. I mean besides the one we are talking about.

    This posting started out more or less of a misdemeanor that does not necessarily have those youngsters arrested, detained, charged, jailed and release after one month or so in detention. Everyone is disagreeing with that and had deemed that to be over reaction and harsh. Oh I agree with you. I am not disagreeing with anyone that this should not have happened in the first place because it is only a misdemeanor.

    But what is important that I brought up is that it is because of The Cocked Up Judiciary System that entails those police officers to further pursue to such extent that they were put up for prosecution.

    Can you or anyone show me which part of the Indonesian Statute says that a person can be charge for tossing coin or let say playing card with no money invovle?

    If none, then how could these people be detained and charge in a court of law.
    What kind of law will that be?

    Nah.. It must be the Sharia Law.

    If it is the actual case, then could they be making it a case study and making it a benchmark for future prosecution of such incident?

    Yes they were eventually let off after being held in the gaol clinking, but in record it had already set a precedent for lawmakers to prosecute in the future any such case.

    Then don’t you think that this could be very dangerous for a society of that many minority groups amidst a large population of Muslims that embrace the Islamic religion?

    Have you heard of paying court fee of the equivalent of 50 rupiahs or 500 rupiahs in any country in the world? It does in Indonesia. Have you heard of a fine of the equivalent of 2,000 rupiahs? It does in Indonesia. Is there any deterrence in the Judiciary System?

    Regulation and Judiciary Systems are inter twining with one complimenting another. You know the process of how it works, don’t you? It will take grandfather time to elaborate that if one does not understand a simple Judiciary system.

    Like licensing, to enforcement, to violations, to indictment, to plea and sentencing.

    In Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, HK and quite many parts of Asia they are using the Conventional Law. This means that you have to prove yourself innocent to have the case thrown out. Even if you may have proven yourself innocent and when there is circumstantial evidence by authorities to prove you guilty or abetting, then you still could be sentence as charge! Unless there are any third or fourth parties involve and that you have turn state evidence in a plea bargain for a lesser crime leading to a dismissal or suspended sentence.

    Whereas the Continental Law needs the authorities to prove you are guilty, then you could be charge and that in court it is for your to explain and show that you are innocent for the charge to be thrown out. Once you are acquitted they cannot prosecute you on the same charge which the law termed it as Double Jeopardy.

    Whereas the Conventional Law can have you brought to court to be charge again when there is new evidence trying to prove you guilty. Therefore you can see on many occassion that a person is dismiss but not acquited of the charges.

    Therefore like what you said of naive, then it is your part to accept or not to accept by agreeing to disagree. When it comes a time when you have been charge of something, then you tell us the outcome. I suppose that is a fair incinuation.

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