Ponari & His Magic Healing Stone

Feb 26th, 2009, in IM Posts, by

The magical faith healing stone of young boy Ponari is big business for a small village in East Java.

East Javanese village is earning big bucks with its boy wonder

Even Ponari must go to school. He hasn’t been there for three weeks and this Monday is the time. The school director takes him there personally on his “moped”, and a platoon of riot police officers run alongside the 9 year old prodigy to protect him. It is not easy to get the boy away from his village. Thousands of people crowd between the houses and when they see Ponari they even press harder. But people have to wait because Ponari must go to school.

A month ago Ponari was hit by lightning, according to his story. When he regained consciousness there was a stone on top of his head. He threw it away but the stone came back so he took it home. There he discovered the healing effects of the stone: a neighbour healed of fever after he had touched it, the village head got rid of a bad pain in his arm and the local police officer, a pious Muslim, swears he has seen with his own eyes how Ponari healed a boy who had not spoken a single word for five years.

The news about the miraculous healings spread quickly and people started to flood to the small village of Balongsari, a few hours drive from Surabaya. First dozens, then hundreds, and now there are thousands. They bring cups, bottles and buckets of water in which the boy wonder plunges his stone. This allegedly turns the water into a powerful panacea. Ponari is carried around by his father. He looks tired.

A party tent protects him against the sun. There are barriers of bamboo put down to control the crowd. This has already led to accidents: four people have been trampled to death and an unknown number got injured. And also the healing doesn’t work that well. A child of three died after his parents had given him wonder water instead of taking him to a doctor. The media are interviewing more and more people who have been drinking the miracle water but didn’t notice anything. Hamzah (53) says that his eyes are just as bad as before. Such information may not deter visitors. They keep on flooding to the village.

Yet there is growing criticism of the Balongsari circus. Especially Muslim organizations condemn what is happening there. It is superstition and therefore sinful but also dangerous. Child welfare agencies demand closure of this 'practice' of Ponari in order to protect the boy against exploitation. Even his father says now enough is enough. He has already tried a few times to get Ponari to school but was always stopped by the crowd and his own neighbours which keep the family more or less as hostages. They want Ponari to continue because they earn big money: they sell food, they rent out parking spaces, sleeping places and sell water in which Ponari has immersed his stone. This poor peasant village is making a daily turnover of one billion rupiah (70,000 euros).

As long as the faithful continue to throng there’s no way back. Ponari says nothing. After school he is back on his father’s shoulders and he immerses his stone in water until he cannot hold it anymore....

This post is a translation of an article which appeared in Dutch daily "Volkskrant" on 24 February 2009 (link: http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/article1154300.ece/Indonesisch_dorp_teert_op_wonderkind).


249 Comments on “Ponari & His Magic Healing Stone”

  1. avatar Burung Koel says:

    @ Barry

    Our discussion proves my earlier point that it is impossible to resolve this form of dispute, given that we are coming from entirely different reference frames. “Faith” is called “faith” precisely because it does not require proof, merely subjective belief. The internal logic of metaphysics, religion et. al. is premised on this assumption. Seeking material “proof” of the existence of God is in fact frowned upon in some religions, because it means that your “faith” is not very strong.

    Call me when you want to think for yourself.

    I admit that I could have phrased that better – perhaps something like “I am prepared to debate you on these issues of reason versus faith when you can separate your personal stake in having a belief from the debating process itself”.

    That’s what I mean about brainwashing – you appear to place a huge amount of your faith in the learning of religious masters (don’t deny it – it’s all over your other posts as well). I don’t know what personal arrangements you have made with your particular brand of religion and its priestly hierarchy, but it weighs your statements down, and muddles your critical thinking.

    Untill you relaise that what you dont know is far beyond what you will possibly ever know you wont have learnt anything.

    Did you note my reference to not being a mysterian (a comment in response to ET)? Just because I’m not a mysterian doesn’t mean I think we already know everything, just that we don’t necessarily know it yet. If we have gaps in our current knowledge, that does not mean that God is hiding in them.

    You, Barry, are a mysterian. Which is fine from a philosophical and religious viewpoint, although there considerable arrogance in a statement such as “there are things that we will/should never know”. It implies that the rest of us should give up trying, or that you are ignoring the amazing progress and development of human understanding.

  2. avatar Arai says:

    ummm.. if Ponari can’t really heal them, then why does so much people came to his house?

  3. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:

    DS Said… They said that there was a magic man who had taken the AIDS out of a sick man, and put it in the goat…..

    While I do hope the the gentleman does not go out and donate blood any time soon, sometimes I cant help but wonder.
    I’ve had my mind blown a few times, by things I cant explain.

    More to the point, I hope that the goat doesn’t go out and give blood.

  4. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    Indeed. Superstition runs rife over the planet in many guises (organized religion being the most dominant manifestation).

    To assume your criteria or definition of reality is better than other peoples, makes you as bigoted as the religious fundamentalist who thinks his view of the world is the only correct one,….he is however properly closer than you are as at least he accepts himself as a bigot without apology, whears you rationalist are deluded into some kind of idea that you are truly objective….the traditional javanese live in much different world of cause and effect that you do in your cosy suburban home..
    ————————————————
    It’s not that cosy. Here you fall into the classic trap of the cultural relativist. You are now using a computer, it works. Just as evolution works. If you made a computer out of wood and leaves like the cargo cults of the Pacific make planes, would it work? No. Why not? Because there is an empirical scientific reality underlying the universe. Show me a cultural relativist at 40,000 feet and I’ll show you a hypocrite. However the scientific method is always open to refinement and progress and therein lies its humility and brilliance. The pathetic chutzpah of the religious tarring atheists as fundamentalists because they DON’T believe in something is errant and logical nonsense. Traditional Javanese most certainly DO NOT live in a different world of cause and effect from the one that I live in, they may believe that they do but that’s another matter entirely. You’ll be defending Hitler next as the product of 1000 years of European culture because that’s where cultural relativism will ultimately lead you my friend. All of this is not to deny the metaphysics of free will and the human subject, just to free him or her from exploitation. And by the way this has nothing whatsoever to do with race.Truth is all I seek.

  5. avatar Hardy says:

    It’s a shame that most Indonesian people believe that stone can heal their ilness. Even if someone get healed by that stone, thats because suggestion effect.

  6. avatar fullmoonflower says:

    just want to say : “memalukan, memprihatinkan…. how stupid” 🙁

  7. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ all bule ignoramus,

    Just like the invisible force of a magnet, if you don’t get too close, it is just another piece of stone. However the energy is haloing all over. What about feng shui? Many bules are starting to adopt it.

    Ponari’s new discovery herald a new era of awareness of the mysticism of Java and its people. It could possibly earn us big bucks with export potential. As always when there is a new discovery by Brown man, bules will do their best to put us down, at the same time, steal our knowledge.

    Have any of you drank from the fountain of water blessed by Ponari’s magic healing stone? If not, what is your authority on this matter?

  8. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    Feng Shui is complete bollocks as is the healing power of Ponari’s stone. You do your countrymen a great disservice by pandering to this pseudo scientific rubbish. These people battering down young Ponari’s door are being ripped off, pure and simple. In fact it has been documented that not a single one of them has been cured. Also Ponari himself is being deprived of an education by being forced to stay at home and deal with this crap; an education, incidentally, that may have helped him to see through such thinly disguised hokum, that may have helped him develop a modern country with a health system so that desperate, impoverished villagers wouldn’t need to queue up outside his house for days in the first place.

    I don’t really think exporting this kind of nonsense is a possibility to be honest Mr. Aluang and before you start with the cultural imperialist schtick I suggest that you take a look outside your door and see how many cars and computers were made with Javanese technology.

  9. avatar Burung Koel says:

    Feng Shui is complete bollocks

    I know this Chinese intellectual doctor who swears that feng shui cured him of AIDS.

    The Chinese government has used feng shui as the reason for taking back Hong Kong and Macau, and for invading Tibet. Now they need Taiwan to ‘balance the forces’.

  10. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    I caught cancer off a lamp post.

  11. avatar fullmoonflower says:

    This is the funniest joke I ever got from a “funny” friend of my community in Yogya.

    One day he wrote a note and sent the note to all of community members so all members will give it comment. It said that someone proposed Ponari as a calon legislatif…. hahaha

    wong yogya asli pancen koplak tur ngguyoke kok 😆
    but they and their jokes have made the world not seems sorrowful for their people… 🙂

  12. avatar Oigal says:

    I know a Muslim intellectual doctor with aids who was completely cured by Islamic healing methods..

    Whilst claptrap like this is mildy amusing at first glance, unfortunately it ultimately ends up costing lives… short step from this..to having sex with virgins cures aids etc etc. Nonsense in every sense of the word.

    a Muslim should really rely only on Allah

    Yup and damn them silly doctors and their immunisations and disease control methods..If Allah wants it, we should just stay sick and die..

    As BK said, Skeptic’s Anon in oz for one has a standing $100,000 reward for the first miracle or magic that can withstand normal scientific rigor. Been there for at least 15 years unclaimed so far.

  13. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    Exactly Mr. O. Also non-believers in evolution should not be allowed flu shots or other vaccines which simply couldn’t have been synthesized without an understanding of natural selection and DNA.

    “A Muslim should really rely only on Allah” this far too common fatalism is really such a sad way of conceiving the world, sad sad sad…and hypocritical.

    If it’s sceptics your after, James Randi is yer man:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=james+randi&aq=f

  14. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Lairedion

    Thanks. Done it. You can ask Patung to delete my post now.

    @ Mike Oxblack

    You do need to study Javanese philosophy to understand the ‘other’ dimensions.

    I don’t really think exporting this kind of nonsense is a possibility to be honest Mr. Aluang and before you start with the cultural imperialist schtick I suggest that you take a look outside your door and see how many cars and computers were made with Javanese technology.

    The above is a very typical whitey statement.

    When Europe was coming out of the dark age in the 15th century, the islands of Java and Sumatra already had a thousand-year heritage of advanced civilization, spanning two major empires. Unlike Whiteys, Mojopahitans (as with most Asian empires) during their golden age did not see it fit to forcefully rape, murder, enslave and colonize another less advance culture to enrich themselves. Hence we had not acquired any ill-gotten wealth for our citizens to have the luxury to access unlimited resources at the expenses of subjugated slaves, and spare time to invent and discover. Imagine we had done what the Whiteys did to native Americans, Oz Blackies and centuries of robbing, we would have continued to be the most advanced nation on earth.

  15. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    I said nothing about colonialism which I abhor and which still goes on under the guise of a free market system. I talk only of the scientific method, which has given us so much, and of the uselessness of superstition. If you have to return to the 15th Century in order to defend your position or resort to racist terms such as ‘whitey’ then its obvious that classic inferiority complexes are rearing their heads. Take a look at countries such as Korea, Japan, Malaysia or even Vietnam if you want to see countries who haven’t been crippled like this one has by superstition, corruption and indolence. Its also a bit rich to bang the colonialism drum when Indonesia is essentially an inherited Dutch colony run (rather exploitatively and brutally) by the Javanese (ask people East Timor and Papua about ‘murder and enslavement’). Glass houses/stones.

  16. avatar Barry Prima says:

    Show me a cultural relativist at 40,000 feet and I’ll show you a hypocrite.

    That is nothing to do with cultural relativism, at least understand the term cultural relativism before banding it about, especially if you want to claim yourself to be scientific. Like BK your science swot friend who used the word ad hominum without knowing what it means.
    That example is to do with the laws of gravity not culture!
    Understand the term relative too, `cultural relativism’ is relativism in understanding and response to certain aspects of reality, not all. The term relative in `cultural relativism’ is also `relative’ to certain aspects of reality with which it deals with.

    It’s not that cosy. Here you fall into the classic trap of the cultural relativist. You are now using a computer, it works. Just as evolution works.

    If you plug the computer with a 3 pin charge into a two pin mains will it work? The effect is depended on the cause, and the cause and the effect for the same phenomena exist on many levels.

    The pathetic chutzpah of the religious tarring atheists as fundamentalists because they DON’T believe in something is errant and logical nonsense.

    You have to make your own arguments, so you can at least win some. Nobody on this thread has called an atheist a fundamentalist.
    Can u care to explain why it’s errant and logical nonsense, instead of ranting like dare i say it `fundamentalist’!!!

    Traditional Javanese most certainly DO NOT live in a different world of cause and effect from the one that I live in.

    Where do you live? I bet wherever it is they have nice cosy things like welfare, old folks homes and maybe even a national health service.
    When a traditional Javanese gets old, he doesn’t go to an old folks home to die, when he loses his job, he doesn’t go to the dole office, and when he gets sick he is as likely to go to ponari and others like him as he is to go to the local hospital.
    That basic level cause and effect difference there.
    I’ll give you another scientific example of relativity of experience: Colour
    Colors exist only in our brains. For a given wavelength of light the colors that each of us sees are unique to ourselves since the physical response of my retina is for almost for sure different from the response of your retina. You will never see the red color that I see and my red color is always going to be my own personal red color.
    Youre claiming to represent the scientific argument, but you are going against the basic ideas of relativity (Einstein) and quantum physics.
    I bet you don’t understand those either do you?

    , they may believe that they do but that’s another matter entirely.

    That is the matter entirely…now if you get that into your head even on a scientific level, you might make some progress.

    You’ll be defending Hitler next as the product of 1000 years of European culture because that’s where cultural relativism will ultimately lead you my friend.

    Clutching at straws (non )argument. Shuv Hitler in their face, make em feel bad. I’m not German, so it wont work on me. I fail to see how that has anything to do with my argument. By the way i think Hitler believed in `cultural superiority’ not relativism.
    Truth is all I seek.
    No wonder you’re so full of ridiculous ideas, as the zen saying goes` do not seek the truth, only let go of cherished ideas’.

    Feng Shui is complete bollocks as is the healing power of Ponari’s stone.

    What a scientific and penetrating observation.

    pseudo scientific rubbish

    Nobody claimed it was science, pesudo or otherwise, again make up your own labels, definitions and parameters and judge from your mighty throne.

    The Chinese government has used feng shui as the reason for taking back Hong Kong and Macau, and for invading Tibet.

    As far as I’m aware the communist had no regard for feng shui, Confucianism, Taoism or any religion or folklore. Isn’t Feng Shui that part of the culture of superstition the communist (who colonized those lands)so hated and tried to destroy. Calling everything in the supernatural/spiritual realm you don’t understand `Rubbish’ i could just as easily argue, leads to destruction of culture and creates phenomena like Stalin, Mao and the gang of four.

    I know this Chinese intellectual doctor

    Burung ,dont try to jerk on me ,i dont want to have to insult you back.Lets not go there.

    In fact it has been documented that not a single one of them has been cured.

    Documented by whom?

    Nonsense in every sense of the word.

    I feel true intellectual humiliation from such an overwhelming argument.
    Oigal, you are a really bad loser, seems you’re still upset about the thrashing you got in the atheist section, Get over it lah.
    With comments like the above, and rehashing of Muslim stereotypes, it appears your ability to debate/comment intelligently has still not evolved beyond that of a 5 year old.
    Nonsense in every sense of the word :indeed

    “A Muslim should really rely only on Allah” this far too common fatalism is really such a sad way of conceiving the world, sad sad sad…and hypocritical.

    Didn’t Muhammad also say, ¬but tie up your camel-…I suppose in your fixed one dimensional world you can’t understand how i can say only rely on god, and don’t rely on god and still be consistent.
    You might say `hitler is great’ and i would agree with you. You might then say `Hitler is a fool’ and you will still be right.
    Depends on the context or the level in which you are making that statement. Everything in this world exists in relation to something else. The basic principle of Islam is everything is created in pairs, every positive has a negative (that’s a bit of science for you).The only thing that is outside of duality/ contradiction is Allah.

    I suggest that you take a look outside your door and see how many cars and computers were made with Javanese technology.

    And how many great mystics/prophets and religions have the west produced?
    I think the exact figure is :none.
    So whilst you might be the experts on the material world (well at least for the moment) the east is far advanced in the matters of the spirit, if you give up your arrogance you might learn something.

    Take a look at countries such as Korea, Japan, Malaysia or even Vietnam if you want to see countries who haven’t been crippled like this one has by superstition, corruption and indolence.

    these countries are full of superstion. At least according to your definition.

    the uselessness of superstition

    Who is being the cultural relativist now?

    CHaung Tzu:
    Everyone knows the use of usefulness; nobody understands the usefulness of the useless.”

    “There once was a man who feared his own shadow and who hated his footprints and tried to escape from them. The more he lifted his feet, the more tracks he made. As fast as he could go, his shadow remained with him. Thinking he was still going too slow, he streaked like an arrow until all his strength was spent, and he died. He didn’t realize that sitting in the shade of a tree would do away with his shadow, and living quietly would leave his traces to fade away. Stupid. Extremely stupid.”

  17. avatar Burung Koel says:

    Like BK your science swot friend who used the word ad hominum without knowing what it means.

    Welcome back, Barry. By the way, it’s ad hominem, as in Latin the preposition ad (to) takes the accusative of homo (man). I did Latin as well as science. Thanks for playing.

    Colors exist only in our brains. For a given wavelength of light the colors that each of us sees are unique to ourselves since the physical response of my retina is for almost for sure different from the response of your retina. You will never see the red color that I see and my red color is always going to be my own personal red color.
    Youre claiming to represent the scientific argument, but you are going against the basic ideas of relativity (Einstein) and quantum physics.

    Oh dear, the famous perception of colour example. Long ago discredited, but still popular amongst sixth formers, I believe. Unfortunately for you, Barry, our retinas and brains do process the information in the same way, and we do see the same colours. The various tests for colour blindness wouldn’t work otherwise. The only people who do see colour in different ways are the physically colour blind.

    Do you understand relativity and quantum physics, Barry? You might want to enlighten us with how these apply in this case to classical optics and neurology.

    The Chinese government has used feng shui as the reason for taking back Hong Kong and Macau, and for invading Tibet.

    As far as I’m aware the communist had no regard for feng shui, Confucianism, Taoism or any religion or folklore. Isn’t Feng Shui that part of the culture of superstition the communist (who colonized those lands)so hated and tried to destroy.

    That was a joke, Barry.

    The basic principle of Islam is everything is created in pairs, every positive has a negative (that’s a bit of science for you).The only thing that is outside of duality/ contradiction is Allah.

    Please don’t continue to misuse or misrepresent science, Barry. It’s not a good look. And neither is your faux-mysticism and use of quotations that sound profound but have little or no meaning. By definition, mysterians like yourself don’t normally attempt to argue against scientific rationality. You will be on safer ground if you stick to areas where you can’t be disproved.

  18. avatar Oigal says:

    ah BP always good for a belly laugh.. although I am glad that you brought up the Atheist thread (it would have been just mean for me to do so). There was a sound thrashing there alright as once again you tried to trot out your pseudo science and ya gotta love it “metaphysics” and came crashing down till the end you had to fall back to the trench position of all myth believers:

    suspend your thought, because thought just creates more thoughts, which lead to nowhere as they create a false sense of self control

    Although I was glad to see you finally acknowledged the only way for such positions to exist is the very suspension of thought .

    Now for anyone else, I personally believe that faith remains the business of the people themselves, its only when people such as BP try and present the existence of the unicorn as scientific fact that it should be challenged as the hookum it is.

  19. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    Where do you live? I bet wherever it is they have nice cosy things like welfare, old folks homes and maybe even a national health service.
    When a traditional Javanese gets old, he doesn’t go to an old folks home to die, when he loses his job, he doesn’t go to the dole office, and when he gets sick he is as likely to go to ponari and others like him as he is to go to the local hospital.
    That basic level cause and effect difference there.
    I’ll give you another scientific example of relativity of experience: Colour
    Colors exist only in our brains. For a given wavelength of light the colors that each of us sees are unique to ourselves since the physical response of my retina is for almost for sure different from the response of your retina. You will never see the red color that I see and my red color is always going to be my own personal red color.
    Youre claiming to represent the scientific argument, but you are going against the basic ideas of relativity (Einstein) and quantum physics.
    I bet you don’t understand those either do you?

    I actually know a fair bit about relativity and quantum mechanics which have both been perverted by pseudo-science to imply that all phenomena are both relative and observer dependent, which is a gross misreading and perversion of the science and one you seem to be repeating here. We seem to be mixing up empirical science with philosophy and the mind/body Cartesian duality that remains a problem, this can be seen in your example of seeing colours. The physical processes involved in detecting light by retinal rods and cones are indeed the same for all, what you have picked up on is the philosophical problem of being able to DESCRIBE one’s subjective experience of colour.

    the uselessness of superstition

    Who is being the cultural relativist now?

    Again, you mix up science and culture here. Culture gives us art and literature and beauty, fine, and this country has produced much in these fields. It does not offer a representative description of the world, for this we turn to science. Science is not a culturally relative enterprise. The next time you fall ill I challenge you to go and visit Ponari instead of taking antibiotics.

    You might say `hitler is great’ and i would agree with you. You might then say `Hitler is a fool’ and you will still be right.
    Depends on the context or the level in which you are making that statement. Everything in this world exists in relation to something else.

    You’re living in a sea of unmoored judgements here. And don’t give it with the 3 pin plug in a two pin socket nonsense. Cause: 2 pin -plug won’t fit in a 3 pin socket. Effect: Telly don’t work. Anyone want to challenge this so called “arrogant” perception of reality? There is an absolute physical reality underlying our lives.

    Calling everything in the supernatural/spiritual realm you don’t understand `Rubbish’ i could just as easily argue, leads to destruction of culture and creates phenomena like Stalin, Mao and the gang of four.

    I never said it was rubbish, just not science and certainly not going to cure anyone. Us atheists are not total strangers to feelings of awe and love you know. And of course the old Stalin arguments. Stalin was surely exploiting the credulity of a population brain washed by the Russian orthodox church. Do you think that he would have been able to do the same things to a mature, secular society?

    When a traditional Javanese gets old, he doesn’t go to an old folks home to die, when he loses his job, he doesn’t go to the dole office, and when he gets sick he is as likely to go to ponari and others like him as he is to go to the local hospital.
    That basic level cause and effect difference there.

    And so we come back to young P and his mighty stone of justice. Poverty is a material fact my friend. Desperation and a lack of education are hardly the best measures of the veracity of Ponari’s claims. Cause: disease. Effect: Go to hospital, get cured. Effect 2 : Go to Ponari, don’t get cured (as documented by that great organ The Jakarta Post incidentally which said there was no evidence that anyone had been cured). I have no argument with you viz a vis different cultural systems of philosophy, but don’t debase science.

  20. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Mike Oxblack

    Study this analogy:

    A brigand of bule parents beat up and rob a wealthy Asian neighbourhood. They not just rob and run, they stayed on and continually plunder (for centuries) as much as they can. With their ill-gotten gains, their children back home had plenty of time and resources for trial and errors inventions at the expense of their neighbour.

    Now, the Asian family managed to fight off the bule thugs, however the thugs (now rich with their ill-gotten wealth) ganged up not to pay compensation. The Asian family started to pick up their lives from scratch.

    Now, a few decades later, the next generation of Bule wearing gold and diamond jewelries, visited the (now poor) home of the next generation Asian, act benevolence and occasionally pass off some snide remarks, “Hey you are a useless bunch of people, unresourcesful and uncreative. Look at what we have back home.”

    Mike Oxblack, shame on you. You’re one hell of a smarty pant!

  21. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    On the contrary, I’ve lived here many years and wish better for the people than than the twats that they have in charge. Indonesians can be very creative despite the poor deal that they’ve been dealt by both colonialists AND post colonial governments. I’m also just as critical of my own country’s colonial past (and present in fact). A belief system that leads to people rocking up at Ponari’s house riddled with cancer is not going to bring a better future for Indonesians though. I’m just here to defend science from BP and his Deepak Chopra-esque hotch potch of mysticism and scientific theory. Am I white though? You sound very sure…

  22. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Mike Oxblack

    Ah … humility finally shines .. now I see the human side of you.

    Not that I held grudges against bules what was over and done. Your arrogant loud farting remark on ‘Javanese inventions’ warrant a direct non pc-ism response. You nonchalantly tried to dismiss my reply as classic colonialism nonsensical without realizing the impact of what your forbearers had done to this once highly advanced and cultured nation. Our wealth was plundered and we have only decades since merdeka for trials and errors, you had centuries!

    … A belief system that leads to people rocking up at Ponari’s house riddled with cancer is not going to bring a better future for Indonesians though. I’m just here to defend science from BP and his Deepak Chopra-esque hotch potch of mysticism and scientific theory.

    I am not going to argue with someone as ignorant as your good self, living in a glass house, and throwing stones at your neighbours. Becareful where you throw.

    You obviously have no comprehension of the day-to-day struggle of our peasants. With no access to proper health care and at the bottom of the rung, a hope is better than no hope. A hope, however dim or even false, keeps one going. With hope, there is always a dimmer of light. If you take it away from these peasants, without hope, one loses one’s soul.

    Am I white though?

    Who cares? ‘Mike Oxblack’ is a whitey name, and I presume it so.

  23. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Mike Oxblack

    Re:

    Our wealth was plundered and we have only decades since merdeka for trials and errors, you had centuries!

    I further stress: We have decades for trials and errors starting from scratch. You had centuries trials and errors with unlimited resources!

  24. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    You obviously have no comprehension of the day-to-day struggle of our peasants. With no access to proper health care and at the bottom of the rung, a hope is better than no hope. A hope, however dim or even false, keeps one going. With hope, there is always a dimmer of light. If you take it away from these peasants, without hope, one loses one’s soul.

    False hope and consolation. That’s the best many can say of religious belief too. It makes them feel better. One does not lose one’s soul without it however. That’s a very reductive view of life. On the contrary, you can live by your own choices and be free from intellectual slavery and dogmatism. The existential outlook can be positive and not a black abyss. Real hope for a brighter future should be based on something real. I put it to you that you are very arrogant Sir and do Indonesians a great disservice by suggesting that they can’t conceive of life beyond these primitive superstitions. In fact Indonesians are highly intelligent, just let down by a bloody appalling education system. This can be seen in the young kids who have won recent international physics Olympiads. It’s your residual Hindu class system in which your country’s problems reside. You’ve “only” had 60 years, 60 years of the fastest global progress the world has ever seen. So much more could have been done to help the nation’s poorest. Bring back Mr. Hatta.

  25. avatar Oigal says:

    Ah Mike,

    Don’t waste too much time on AAB although he may will represent the high point of logic in those who would dismiss evolution. Like a tapeworm there seems to be real reason for his existance other than to the minor annoyance to others unfortunately a little less attractive in bright light. A somewhat immature little white fella playing Indonesian who contributes little to any debate however is mildly amusing as it wails about clamouring for attention.

    As for his connection to the “struggle of the peasants” his only connection has been to use the suffering of others as grist for trolling in absence of any real contribution.

    Having said that, I might have been a bit harsh, his posts do serve as useful blank spaces between the more articulate posters

  26. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:

    Tn. Aluang, Yth. :

    Now, the Asian family managed to fight off the bule thugs, however the thugs (now rich with their ill-gotten wealth) ganged up not to pay compensation.

    You are Incorrect on this one. The Asian family still have to pay for compensation, for 40 years (although silently, so that the kids wont get angry).

    Odd? well, thats the reality.

  27. avatar Mike Oxblack says:

    Indeed, the colonisation of the poor world continues apace through the World Bank and the IMF. No argument there. It’s up to Indonesians to topple their own domestic elites though. Take heart from Latin America.

    This is all good fun Mr. Oigal, even though I’m pissing time up the wall on the great Ponari debate. Is he a honky then? I also don’t live up to my name. I’ve only strayed here because I can’t seem to load Jakchat on at work at the moment. We should organise a trip round to Ponari’s drum and see if he can increase our virility with his special stone.

  28. avatar Oigal says:

    Indeed he is, although no suprise there more pretend Indonesians here than registered Indonesian voters. Some more interesting than others.

    BP is fun tho to waste a few hours, MR TTC is I believe the real deal and interesting in he spouts the usual deal of the anti-reformists “its all someone elses fault” despite the fact any number of nations have moved on successfully.

    It is curious but I am coming to the belief that the knife edge of denial that so many well educated Indonesians sit upon will come to grief soon and where daddy got his money for my education will need to be faced.

    Sooner or later, it must be realised that you cannot keep blaming someone else for everything bad in your life. The darker internal histories that must be faced before real reform can occur are gaining acceptance..Perhaps another generation or two away from full reform but things are getting better.

    The dodgy family wealth of many is fast becoming more and more unacceptable and people are growing tired of the “its all the fault of evil foreigners”. More than one idiot agrueing for the status quo (as he would) on this site and blaming the evil west for all the nations faults falls sweetly into this bin of ill gotten gains

  29. avatar Suryo Perkoso says:

    Mike Oxblack Says:

    March 24th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
    Indeed, the colonisation of the poor world continues apace through the World Bank and the IMF. No argument there. It’s up to Indonesians to topple their own domestic elites though. Take heart from Latin America.

    This is all good fun Mr. Oigal, even though I’m pissing time up the wall on the great Ponari debate. Is he a honky then? I also don’t live up to my name. I’ve only strayed here because I can’t seem to load Jakchat on at work at the moment. We should organise a trip round to Ponari’s drum and see if he can increase our virility with his special stone.

    You read that crap, and think the great Ponari debate is pissing time up the wall? You’ll find you can take a screenshot and it won’t change one week to the next. The only thing that changes is the number of wives that the proprietor has.
    You don’t live with 5 teachers one house do you?

  30. avatar Mr Tic Tac Toe says:

    Tn. Aluang, Yth.:

    I further stress: We have decades for trials and errors starting from scratch.

    I think, that is also wrong.

    We started from negative US$ 4 Billions, in 1950 dollars. Or approximately US$ 133 Billions in 2000 dollars (relative to world’s GDP growth).

    Not from scratch.

    So, if certain somebody said that we are mismanaged the country, or even genetically incapable, they can eat my bogem mentah.

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