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Now then, if we were to have it all the western way… not long after dad died, I would end up in a foster care, probably seperated from my siblings. After graduating high school, I’d probably end up as a football hooligan. If we assume that I wouldn’t end up as an antisocial juvenile, and the state would pay for Uni tuition fees, who would pay for everything else? And if I were to work my arse off to pay for everything in life my self, and then go to Uni, it would take forever before I get out of the dip. No?
Dianwulan – that was an interesting bit of autobiography.
But why these pessimistic hypotheses -particularly that about being a football hooligan? I come from a family of eleven and my father absconded when i was in my early teens. After that he sent minimal amounts of money since he was remarried and, being a not very high ranking civil servant, made little money anyway.
None of us went into foster care or became a football hooligan. On the contrary we all did fairly well. Yet there was no support from the wider family and since I date from longer ago than I care to say state support was then minimal as well. My older brothers interspersed their studies with temporary jobs and that is how we all sailed through. But frankly it is still a mystery to me how we did.
Uhh..it’s kinda frustrating to read all comments above at 4.am in the morning.
I’m indonesian and yes frankly I want to marry a foreign man. NOT because of money or green-card,though yeah some of people I know,really get obsessed with those things and try to find white-men around as much as they can.
While for me,okay maybe sounds fool; I always think that most of foreign man (American and European) will be always romantic to their wives even in old ages (okay,I’m inspired by films. Doh!). In my mind,they are perfect lovers for a fairy-tale-dreamer like me.
Another reason is that in my opinion foreign people (men and also the women) really know how to take care their environment and animals around (this one I found in community groups which I joined,especially animal-lovers. Most of the active members are from USA and Europe,only few of them come from Asia or even Africa),oh ya I always think that they have good disciplines and obey rules well,not like people here in Indonesia.
So,it’s not all about money right?
Dian,..I don’t see the need to call one way or the other better or be defensive. Football hooligans? Indonesia has pretty much we have agreed a very strong family culture and yet stands high in the football hoolign production line. Some others have pointed out that not having the same family obligations did not stop them being successful or good people.
It’s different not better and needs to be managed early when the two cultures meet in a relationship.
At the risk of getting people all hot under the collar, a large part of the ethnic tension and corruption in Indonesia can be traced back to the obligations to family rather than the greater good. My brother needs a job, I will ignore merit and hire my brother, open contract or award to family..etc
No better ..different
At the risk of getting people all hot under the collar, a large part of the ethnic tension and corruption in Indonesia can be traced back to the obligations to family rather than the greater good
Not sure about ethnic tension but I’ve read somewhere that countries with the highest incidence of corruption are also those where family ties are the strongest. Not surprising if your social security depends on the clan rather than the welfare state.
I would say that on a personal level the traditional strong family culture has advantages over the impersonal welfare state. However in view of the greater good and impartial redistribution of wealth the modern western models have the edge.
Ethnic tension look no further than the perception that Chinese Indonesians are clannish and exclude ‘pribumi’ Indonesians. Was so easy for some to exploit that in 98.
To take it further, read what Bill Gates has to say about trying to get Asian billionaires involved in charities for the greater good of the wider populace, if it’s not family then screw em would seem to be the motto.
On the local scene, look at the evil mud brothers who are happy to wallow in obscene displays of wealth whilst tens of thousands are homeless thanks to them in Surabaya. But hey the family is doing just fine thanks..
Either way, whether people live in individualistic way of life like in the west, or they are strongly attached to the family clan like in Asia, there is no guarantee that the needy will be taken care of if the state doesn’t care to uphold the law to protect them, right?
As for the mud evil, an evil is an evil. Whether he has a lot of family members to take care of – including the materialistic daughter in law – or he lives alone in the deserted island, he will find one way or another to make other’s life miserable.
Indeed Deta, I think ET put it best, on personal level the strong family ties offer significant advantages however for society at large a much more debatable point.
Curiously, a digressing slightly with such strong family traditions and religious imprinting Indonesia is in the top ten porn downloaders in the world it was reported today..hmmmmm
Any idea to relate this porn downloading habit with strong family ties? Like, because you care and think very much about the family you have to loosen that stress a bit by browsing through it? Or, because you’re constantly under the supervision of your parents, your uncle and your aunties, the options available are either you date yourself or you download these porns to release the hormonal imbalance?
It all seems a bit of a vicious circle: as long as the state is revenue-poor there is no money for a welfare system, when there is no welfare system people have to rely on the family. as long as they rely on the family there will be low appreciation of the common good, a low appreciation of the common good is related to a high inclination to avoid taxes plus the possibility of doing so through corrupt taxation officers who have an equally low estimation of the common good and a high appreciation of their family’s interest, tax avoidance leads to a revenue-poor state and there we are back at the beginning. One could of course start this circle at any other point.
I have often wondered when and how West European states managed to break through this. f Take Britain and ideas about corruption. When the fellow who is deemed to be Britain’s first de facto Prime Minister, Sir Robert Walpole, (in our eyes scandalously) enriched himself and his family it didn’t seem to create all that much of a stir. If about a century later another PM, Sir Robert Peel, had done the same it would probably have led to a great brouhaha. What led to the change? Probably a multiplicity of causes. A better defined party system and with it parliamentary opposition, a wider electorate (the Reform Bill), a more powerful public sphere (a wider distribution of more newspapers) – in general a greater influence of the middle class (the only class that, as Queen Victoria rightly knew, was ‘behaving itself’) etc.
I have indulged in some amateur history here and gladly give my opinion for a better one.
When, in Southeast Asia, I look at Filipino politics it is clear that a few factors that seem to have worked for Britain are lacking there. There is no clearly defined party system and with it parliamentary opposition. People can easily change parties depending on where their personal advantage lies. Also, to have a wide electorate means little as long as votes can be so easily bought, in the first place by the entrenched “trapos’ (traditional politicians belonging to the old ‘political families’). And though the Philippines has a vigorous press the quality papers are generally too dear for the ‘hoi polloi’. Etc.
But is there a ‘master clue’? And if so where?
But is there a ‘master clue’? And if so where?
The clue lies where the masses started to organize themselves into unions, which gave rise to the formation of socialist parties demanding better working conditions, higher pay and organizing the first health and retirement insurance funds. Soon in democratic societies the other parties had to follow these ‘socialist’ evolutions for fear of losing voters. This way the welfare state was born and has been refined ever since, unfortunately sometimes up to a point where the system itself becomes a legal maze and an unbearable financial burden. But the starting point still lies within the determination of the people to emancipate and break the pattern of sole reliance on family handouts.
The question however remains: what does all this have to do with dating Indonesian girls?
Interesting. I wonder whether it is the lack of social welfare from the state that foster the “clanning” culture in a country, or vice versa, the clanning culture that’s hard to break impedes the social movement to demand a better social welfare.
I believe the reason lies in the 2nd part of your remark. As long as SARA is more important than work ethics and solidarity on a wider basis the mold will never be broken.