Monarchy-Sultanate Form of Government

Oct 14th, 2008, in Opinion, by Ross

View the original article here.

47 Comments on “Monarchy-Sultanate Form of Government”

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Rob Says:
October 16th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Achmad…

We have been waiting for this insult-a-thon for bloody ever! It is time you and Ross delivered on your promises rather than just continuing to tease us with the possibility!
Lairedion Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Ross said:

I know he’s tired of hearing opinions contrary to his own,

No I’m not, I’m just tired hearing the same silly bashing against the not so important JP. And I’m not alone at this. Just consider timdog’s and my suggestion. Read some other Indonesian newspapers for once.

As to the Jakarta Post’s biased reporting, I was so appalled by this item 5/9 from last month that I scribbled it down and kept it for just such doubters as Lairedion. It’s a NEWS item, believe it or not, by somebody called Tony Holland, a bule sort of name

Where Mr. Hotland (not Holland) turns out to be Indonesian. LOL, can’t get enough of such well-informed journalism. Ross, keep up the good work. Waiting for your next masterpiece.
Ross Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Timdog, thanks for providing the link, people can see for themseves that I wasn’t exaggerating the boy’s intense anti-Westen tone. I am aware of awful stuff in the local press (almost as bad as the American East Coast media!) but their readers can complain as they see fit…I just object to a paper designed for us foreigners being so often biased, constant flow of articles from Yank pinkos, another sob-story yesterday about the PKI (never trying to differentiate between those wrongly persecuted and the real reds who brought it on themselves) and stuff like young Hotland’s, oozing anti-Coalition drivel.

What’s your take on Imam Bonjol’s role in undermining the native state and thus forcing the royals to submit to Dutch influence, Achmad? No insults, much more agreeable without slagfests.
Anyway, I am off to Bali for a little while, must try the new Bugil’s Bar there;believe it opens Saurday night.
As you say, it’s all business and I’m just too busy – have to deal with my own krismon barat at the mo.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Ross,

On Imam Bonjol – will have to give it a think.

Seems like the punters are keen for that insult-a-thon…
janma Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Sorry PN, I’m not taking the piss…. i just really want to clarify, I think it may just be a typo or just my reading comprehension…..

Royals married many times and had innumerous concubines. But with few exceptions, the offspring of the first to third wives only are considered legitimate heirs.

Offspring resulting of consummated marriage are at best marginally aristocratic, if not outright illegitimate and in most cases simply treated as privileged commoners.

My question is….. aren’t offspring resulting from consummated marriage…. (as you say in the first paragraph, from first to third wives) considered legitimate heirs? So why are they “at best marginally aristocratic” ? I mean you’d soon run out of aristocrats if the offspring of consummated marriages weren’t treated as aristocratic???

I remember the first time I saw the Keraton I was so shocked at the state of it…. I couldn’t believe it was a palace…. it seemed so….. well….. inconsequential… for want of a better word…. I mean, If you were used to seeing the palaces of Europe or India even, it was just provincial in comparison… but I have since gotten used to the differences in monarchy between countries… I have a photo of the King of Gianyar from 1896 squatting shirtless on the dirt ground, his only sign of royalty was some equally ill clad man squatting beside him holding an umbrella over his head.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Halo Ibu Janmas Yth,

Do you think PN will be my Special Internet Friend ?
Andy Says:
October 18th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
PN-Maybe when Austrlia apologizes for funding separtism circa 1955-57, the Malayan Emergency Conflict, Suharto’s installation, the Vietnam war and the Iraq war- perhaps Indonesia may follow suit- if the legal requirement was to ever be met of illegal aggression.

Me-However, I now wish in hindsight that my country and the rest of the western world sat back and let the communists take over in 1965. See the nationalists on these pages with their adulation of Suharto fail to see if not for us and the Cold War, he wouldn’t have been in power in the first place.

PN-Communism, failed in the guise of Sukarno NasAKom as the Rakyat decided atheism and hate for traditional authority was not for them- and neither was cosying up t the hereditary enemy and residual colonial parasite- the Chinese- it had nothing to do with the West. The Rakyat decided and went amok due to Sukarno’s egoistic grandstanding which left the Rakyat poor, hungry and diseased.

See he contradicted himself the moron. Give the dog another bone….Nice doggy!!!!
Purba Negoro Says:
October 19th, 2008 at 2:39 am
Janma-
I do not understand your wording. I think I follow- but could you please clarify?
Is it with regard to degree of nobility in terms of eligibility for succession and complication due to Slutan’s excessive lust for women or…?

Andy-
stop being silly please. Menzies knew he could not win a war with Indonesia without a Nuclear option- and the US did not want a nuclear regional arms race- where the Soviets would be more than happy to arm.

See the big picture Andy- Austalia is a miniscule portion of it.
janma Says:
October 19th, 2008 at 8:09 am
PN…. in the first paragraph you say that children from the first three wives can be considered for succession…. I’m concluding that these first three wives had ‘consummated marriages’…. in other words they married the sultan had sex and had children who can then be considered as heirs….

But then you say….

Offspring resulting of consummated marriage are at best marginally aristocratic, if not outright illegitimate and in most cases simply treated as privileged commoners.

I’m thinking you mean offspring from concubines here and not offspring of consummated marriage? Correct?
janma Says:
October 19th, 2008 at 8:18 am
I mean you say….

Ritual wives, diplomatic wives, envoy wives, the whole gamut, concubines, mistresses, quickies all do not count.

I guess I don’t get what you mean by ritual wives, diplomatic wives and envoy wives….??? I understand that the offspring of concubines and mistresses wouldn’t count…. that makes sense but what’s the difference between his ‘first three wives’ and the ritual, diplomatic and envoy wives???
you mean these wives were actually someone elses wives? like the diplomats and envoys???
and if as you say

Legitimacy- royal lineage is not the sole attribute for claiming the throne (or its’ 3 other guises). Being spiritually or divinely appointed and having enough followers to belive yuo also counts

then why couldn’t offspring of say a concubine be considered if he does indeed have aristocratic blood since the sultan is his father and maybe the first three wives had idiots or no one fit to succeed, then wouldn’t say an exceptionally qualified offspring of a concubine be considered? esp if he for example had many supporters? has that ever happened?
Andy Says:
October 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am
PN, that was my point to begin with. Suharto came to power on a wave of anti-communist hysteria which led to the Vietnam War, the Malayan Emergency, The rise of the NPA in the Philippines etc. Indonesia was supposed to insulate us from the domino theory in Asia. This is why the West sponsored Suharto the same way they did in Latin America. It had nothing to do with the wishes of the rakyat at all. It is you who are the pawns in the bigger picture. Get with the program.
Purba Negoro Says:
October 21st, 2008 at 12:59 am
Andy- so… we are arguing but agreeing?

But having personally lived through anno pericoloso and the madness of the Islamics- I’ll reserve my own very learned opinion rather than Western sycophantic leftist Academics and other such Beaujolais Bolsheviks and Camembert Commissars about Sukarno.
He wasn’t the cat’s pyjamas they paint him as, and the true Revolutionaries: soldiers and politicians had totally abandoned him – Nasution and Hatta included.
He was clutching at straws playing the Soviets against the Chinese (who they hated too- which culminated in their border war) against the Yanks.
He alienated all Muslims and the general indigenous prospective Proletariate placing the hated Chinese in cabinet positions- he was very much on borrowed time- the Rakyat were experiencing famine.
Furthermore- the Marxist revolution would have failed as the Proletariate were not Workers- skilled and semi-skilled- but uneducated agrarian peasants with very strong attachments to class, status and religion.
The Rakyat far more trusted the military than the politicians- having trusted the 1957 US-UK-Australia Sumateran secession movement and the Islamics.
It was the military who was intimately familiar with the problems of the people- down to below Kepala Desa- NOT the very academic and self-stratified politicians- who were too afraid to venture out in the Plymouths, Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs outside of Jakarta.

Sukarno was surrounded by “Yes” men, was not listening to critics- no matter how close and loyal they were- including the Panitia Sembilan- Hatta and Subardjo.
It was total failure and total delusional self aggrandizement by a leader we loved for our freedom from the Dutch but hated too for all his failed promises.
Everyone hated and distrusted the Communist Chinese far more than we hated the collaborator remnants. No one wanted Sukarno’s Little Red Book.

I remember having only two meals a day and planting vegetables- and I was a soldier then.
Everyone was starving and fed up- rich and poor. Teh Mel Gibson movie talking about the gold plates- is actually not far from the truth. He ate dinner every night on a Cambodian silver service- and threw the scraps onto reporters.
Everywhere but Menteng was fast becoming a slum.

So, Pak Suharto and his Kader including Bung Nasution and Sri Gusti Hangkubuwana IX and many prominent and Heroic others, having attempted a coup d’etat in 1948- which we all wish he had have succeeded, saw his opportunity- liased with the US and UK and was the superb judge of time and events.

Janma-
What I am referring to is the system of Selir where wives are give as part of a diplomatic relationship- but the marriage may never be consumated.

Envoy wives- in the same vain for example exchange of concubines from Siam which where never consummated.

Ritual wives- in some instances concubines or ritual wives were taken as to appease an element of Kejawen belief- a type of syarat particularly for communication with Dew Nyai Roro Kidul- there are others like her as well- but are believed not to dwell in the sea- but caves, rivers, mountains and forests.
Dieng Plateu has one famous spirit queen still resident there according to Javanese belief, as does Candi Cethot and Banyumsar complex all have ones- but I forget the names.

Sometimes taking a wife- but not consummating the marriage is advised by Dukun for greater sakti etc.

Now the first three to five wives all have rank.
These are (phonetically):
Queen: Garwo Padmi
First wife:

Selir: are titled Garwo Ampeyan, now Apeyan is a kind of mixed word which means both Ampeh means “tahan”- to put up with/tolerate and ampara- throne of king, meaning the wife at the foot of the king- both literally and metaphorically.

Many selir were “donated” for a better economic life than their peasant or minor noble fathers could provide and better than entering a buddhist/hindu convent.

Now- for offspring of the Queen, these are labelled:
Gusti Raden Mas or Gusti Raden Ayu

Crown Prince and general successor is:
Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Adipati

First born daughter of Queen alone is: Sekar kedhaton/bunga istana/ raja puteri Raden Ayu
2nd: Sekar taji Raden Ayu
3rd: Candra kirana Raden Ayu

Second son and so forth are Son is Atmaja Raja, all others are Gusti Raden Mas- the Gusti is a possessive- it signifies the theh Raden Mas belonging to the Gusti just like modern Indonesian like pensil hijau muda. Pensil is the possessive noun with attributes of subsequent adjective words.

All Selir are: Kanjeng Raden Ayu- kanjeng is hereditary title only for servant f the court. Like Ibu KA Siti Hartini- Pak Suharto’s wife Kanjeng Ayu- her predecessors were Abdi Dalem court officers/servants to the Mangkunegaran

Only the first son born of the first Gawo Ampeyan is titled: Bendara Raden Mas Gusti.
Note he is the Raden Mas solely of the Flag not the Crown, and Gusti here is the status rank honourific.
After Marriage his title becomes Gusti Panggeran.
Not Panggeran Raden Mas of the Corwn Prince and children of recognised wives.

Only the eldest daughter of the first Garwo Ampeyan is titled: Kanjeng Ratu – kanjeng again solely title for servant of court, not nobles.

As with the ancient Chinese emperors- being able to have multiple intercourse but refraining from ejaculating (surrendering ones’ male sakti power) was also believed to increase the Sultan’s kehebatan and something like imperial divine authority and power- all in one word- I do not know the Western transliteration.

Children of the selir were given punggawa roles- offical court servant position above abdi Dalem.
The pangreh praja

The moral of the story is- most claims to royalty must be taken with the greatest pinches of salt- only the courts can referee and acknowledge nobility.
Ross Says:
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Hate to drag the thead back to roughly where it started, but I read in the dear old JP that 30 or so of the archipelago’s kings are getting together next week 28/10 to discuss the Sultan’s chances of a Presidential bid. So our monarchist hopes should not be given up too easily. Also they show their good taste by planning to have the yummy Trie Utami there to sing for them.

Achamd, I really don’t think we should demean our stock of verbals merely as a form of bread and circuses for the punters. I’m confident that some issue will arise in due course which will present us with a real casus belli and then we can unload the arsenals. I am in a fairly calm, though preoccupied, mood and have no powerful uge to insult you. Our day will come.
Purba Negoro Says:
October 24th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Sri Gusti Hamengkubuwana X would be very popular for the Central Javanese and he is a known patriot and very good friend of the Military. He is a moderate and modern Muslim and excellent model for he Rakyat to emulate.

On these qualifications he is on paper very good.

But what of the Republican Rakyat who cry foul against any form of traditionalism or feudalism?

But what if he is a lame duck president- like Gus Dur or SBY- through the machinations of those below Him?

The prestige of the Sultan’s throughout the Indonesia will be perpetually tainted.

Part of my wish very much for his success- but the brain tells me he has little chance.
Megawati, Sutrisno or Prabowo or yet unknown will be President.
Tony Hotland Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 3:46 am
Hey, that’s my pic you got there!
You guys should’ve been with me here in Washington last week when I talked to some of the State Department officials on how they, and I quote, “got it wrong”, on these stupid wars. Cheers…
tanaka Says:
February 12th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
As a Monarchist I would like to see a monarchial state of indonesia, but the fact is Indonesian royalty is not one single entity like most european or asian states.

As a monarchy there are three alternetives for indonesia:
1) a federation similar to the second reich (German Empire), but still the state must decide who will be the head of state.
2) a unitary monarchy with an entirely new house. This option quite complicated and unreallistic now.
3) all royal houses in Indonesia will collectively known as House of King (chief, etc) and they will serve as the upper house of parliament. The position of the head of state can be filled by the president of the house (this arangement is similar to the governor general of the UN) or the state remain a republic; but under this arrangement the form of state is better as a federation rather than a union.

The third option is currently applicated in many african republics.
As a symbol of a completely renew unitary state of Indonesia detach from its colonial history, unfortunately the second option is more suitable than the other two.
sakiinah Says:
May 11th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Hi, I’m Sakiinah from Globalia Magazine
I’m writing on the Sultanate in Malaysia and find your view quite similar to what im writing. Is it okay if I quote this part:

“The Malayan kingdoms exist quite harmoniously within Malaysia’s democratic system, and that country is presided over by an elective monarchy, sultans from each area taking their turns as head of state. Thus Malaysians can see a focus of national loyalty personified, not in the person of the embattled Prime Minister or the defamed opposition leader but in a figure who symbolises a state above parties, not in any feudal or authoritarian way, but as a representative of the peninsula’s heritage. Might not Indonesia have fared better with some distinctive version of that, rather than suffering the demagoguery of Sukarno and the dictatorship of Suharto? Certainly, those individuals may still have risen to prominence, but might their excesses not have been restrained had constitutional royalty been about? We don’t know, but it’s interesting to
speculate.”

Btw, may i know further detail on your background so that i can attached it together?