@ Patrick : I’d like to say more about the atheists’ mysticism according to Zizek but I’m sorry it just came to my mind, a rememberance of some obscure reading in The Parallax view or Welcome to the Desert of the Real, I don’t know anymore. I agree with you for many a nightmarish atheistic ruling of society, but so many non atheistic societies have been ruled much more horribly than hell “in the name of (any) God”, bukan ? I don’t think the religious are bad, but that the bad are bad when they are, the same with the good ones. What I’d reproach to the great majority of religious reasons & explanations is their intellectual slackness : isn’t it easy to “explain” everything with some unexplainable godhead or alike ? But religion is one thing, spirituality another, and still another thing is “God”. No, the “perception” philosophy has nothing to do with the tree falling in some remote blackhole forest… Try to do something, or have the slightest thought, without perception, and tell me.
@ Rob : I really appreciate what you just said.
@ Barry : Yes, I believe (and I don’t as in madhyamika philosophy), and I doubt and I don’t… You know, no absolute, no independent primordial causal etc. reality. Only approximations. And this beautiful encouraging fitrah / tathagatagarbha “theory” for those who are afraid of “emptiness” (shunyata), and, moreover, emptiness for those who cling to any easy or abstruse view, the empty nature (the interdependent nature) of any kind of reality, opinion, etc. OK, Buddha or buddhahood is a kind of God or divinity. But a sentient being becoming a buddha does not do that by the grace of God. Or said otherwise : a sentient being who becomes God wan’t take the place of any preexisting God.
But I feel sorry, those matters are far above my understanding, far beyond the range of my interests. I’m interested in love and compassion for all fellow sentient beings. Sometimes the idea of God can help, sometimes it makes things difficult…
@ Fanglong – What? Bukan? : > ) That’s exactly how I feel about what you just said “Much ado about nothing” I am afraid as I so looked forward to our discussion of your personal hero Slavoj Zizek.
OK as far as I am concerned not one convincing argument brought forward by the atheist for God not existing since we started this discussion. Not a single one! Just emotional goobleyglok, personal attestments why you don’t believe in God and just religious bashing in general. Not even one of you could explain whose Morality should we judge people if we all agree that we are atheist since there is at that point there can be no one right or no one wrong. Everyman for himself? Why not let the strongest survive and the weak? Who cares!
But Patrick I am good look I help the poor even the sick at least I am doing something right? Ya so you can look yourself in the mirror and declare yourself good so you can feel better about yourself. Look at me I am GOOD! Look at me I am a god! But you forget that only you can determine yourself to be good or not? Another atheist may arise and declare helping anyone is bad and therefore you are bad! And you know what he is right if he has might on his side. That will be no consistent morality and Darwin will be right as only the strongest can survive so we will live in a world of terror and inconsistency that is even far more destructive than the one we now inhabit. The reason some religious commit evil is because they have fallen into the same trap as the atheist as they have blurred the lines of morality and they declare their own version of truth to be greater than God’s and in effect they themselves decieve themselves into believing that they are gods and know the mind of God better than the truth He has already revealed. At that point they have justified there evils and are content with their version of the truth in error to God’s own account of what is truth.
Ah Patrick. Lets not get into personal name calling shall we, I personally tried to aviod that but if you really want to happy to play..Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them , a drunk, poorly educated (whatever that is supposed to mean) satan’s helper, child murderer or any of the other little homlies you have tossed around.
Just emotional goobleyglok
Really? lets see ..
what is your case besides ” have a hell of allot of explaining to do at the pearly gates”
Look at me I am a god!
Another atheist may arise and declare helping anyone is bad and therefore you are bad!
(Ok this was one of the classics in emotive overplay..who ever said anything like that?)
you gladly tread on people who happily believe in religion as if they were some type of vermin for you to destroy at all costs.
Sorry? WTF is this about?
Unfortunately, you make a case for why atheism is so dangerous because your real objective is to ridicule God and the people of God
Again an emotive overkill, but besides murderous loonies who tend to over react when their view of the world is anyway challenged why is it so dangerous to ridicule? Are you telling me the Lord Zenu is not fair game and if so then why not….
You see Patrick, the whole debate for last few weeks has been the a person can be good, moral ethical without the need for the crutch of religion. Your Ukrainian story is quite noble in its own right but is not the point unless you are saying people who reject the notion of religion are incapable of such acts of charity and sacrifice? Surely not.
Sorry (actually no I am not) you are taking it so personal but yes I believe in a secular society because even if I am 100% wrong and there is a great mystical overlord out there keeping score on me everyday, she doesn’t worry me half as much as fellow human travellers who claim to speak on her behalf.
Oigal – Ok whatever you say as I am done with your silliness BYE!
Where is the evidence that monotheism did not exist from the beginning? There isn’t any! It’s just an assumption that you take for granted,
ummm….. it’s an ‘assumption’ that archeology and history back up actually. : there was one pure monotheism in our history, the first one known, the religion created in Ancient Egypt, for a very short time, by Pharaoh Akhenaten and Queen Nefertiti, around 1350 B.C. You do read dont’ you? (I mean besides religious books…)
After this the Hebrews were the first people to develop the idea of one god. The perception is credited in biblical tradition to Abraham.
At first the Hebrew god, Yahweh or Jehovah, remains one god among many (though the only god deserving worship). This halfway house towards monotheism is described technically as monolatry. But by the time the Hebrews were established in Jerusalem, from about 1000 BC, Yahweh is recognized as the only god. This is the beginning of true monotheism – a faith leaving everyone else with idolatry and delusion.
It has often been pointed out that from about 600 BC there is a surge of religious innovation in different parts of the world. The earliest example is in Persia, where Zoroaster reforms the polytheistic Indo-Iranian religion by introducing a single god, Ahura Mazda. Zoroastrianism becomes the official religion of the Persian empire.
Shall I go on?
Aaaww.. and I was just getting started too
Patrick couldn’t take it….
Patrick couldn’t take it….
I wish you could do little sound bites in posts!
Ah Janma your still very seksi to me and particularly when you tease me! rrrrrrrrrr! However, Janma didn’t I already agree with Oigel’s silliness? What more do you want from me? As far as your last post isn’t these Shloka debates and points from Religion and Religiosity? If yes, I think it was addressed! You haven’t lossed your edge my beautiful godess have you? Please say it aint so Janmaright all the time. Please!
Dang…I knew that being a Lord Zenu convert was pushing it, I should have stuck with part the red sea or flying horses n stuff.
Although Janma, although we have not always seen eye to eye.. I can’t help but think how evil you must have been in past life to deserve having a Patrick on heat descend upon your house.
Reminds me of that Joke
G.Bush goes to hell and the devil says there are three levels of punishment (besides listening to Patrick) and you GBUSH may choose your own punishment as long as you replace the person being punished..Opens first door and there is Nixon standing in his own waste and molten lead as little demonS poke him with forks…next door..There is Hitler..being flayed alive..only to have his skin grow back immediaitly and the process start over…last door …there’s Bill Clinton..lying back on a silk sofa, with Monica L lovingly doing to an intimate part of his body what only monica can do best..
Ol Bush thinks well that don’t look so bad…turns to the devil and says I’ll take this punishment..
Devil grins and shouts..OK MONICA YOU CAN GO
Hey Patrick still all in all its been fun as it always is teasing the fundies..and no matter how much thou shall protest… you are still 96% chimpanzee..see ya shortly
A cross dressing Blok M fairy college professor named Oigal, an avowed Atheist, was teaching his class. He shocked several of his students when he flatly stated he was going to prove there was no God. Addressing the ceiling he shouted: “God, if you
are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I’ll give you
The lecture room fell silent. You could have heard a pin fall. Ten
minutes went by. Again he taunted God, saying, “Here I am, God. I’m
His countdown got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine -
just released from active duty and newly registered in the class -
walked up to professor Ogal, hit him full force in the face, and sent
him tumbling from his lofty platform. The professor was out cold!
At first, the students were shocked and babbled in confusion The young
Marine took a seat in the front row and sat silent. The class fell
silent…waiting. Eventually, professor Oigal came to, shaken. He looked at the young
Marine in the front row. When professor Oigal regained his senses and
could speak he asked: “What’s the matter with you? Why did you do
The Marine answered, “God was busy. He sent me.”
No-one has ever been able to prove the existence of God.
No-one (here, according to Patrick) has been able to prove that God does not exist.
And then ?
There must be greater threats than atheism in Indonesia, no ?
@ Fanglong – Yes there is a greater threat in Indonesia as there idiots who actually think they are clever intelectuals and post here under IM under name such as Lairedion, Oigal (who writes suspiciously like Lairedion) and now you!
@ Fanglong – ha ha ha ha! touche’
Patrick…. do you believe in Hell and Heaven?
Janma – You are heaven & hell to me Jamna. : > )
You want to know the truth, I like and often agree with allot of the things that you say on IM but this type of topic tends to get very personal for people and that includes me so it does not necessarily bring out the very best in us. You and I on these types of issues often butt heads and without either side giving up much, if any, ground to the other. If you think you have a point to make that is wothwhile then OK I will bite and say yes I do believe in Heaven & Hell as a Christian. However, I do believe that Jesus is also most merciful and I do think He will show that Divine Mercy toward many on judgement day and hopefully that includes me as I am a sinner looking for God’s good grace to save me as well.
yeah…..Divine mercy is supposed to be the most merciful anyone can get…. I can’t imagine ‘the most merciful’ putting anyone in hell for ever and ever amen…. so even if I believed in god, I still couldn’t believe in hell.
Janma – I have heard hell described as being seperated from God or without God.
You remember Julian of Norwich optimistic vision that you posted in religion & Religiosity?
“…All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well”
Let’s come to agreement you and I that this may be possible as it is a beautiful way to envision God and not worry about anything else.
Gee..Patrick is that your threat or do you do it on behalf of the big guy..quiver quiver, Kinda silly making that kind of statement on the web as it requires no personal courage or integrity.
Funny I thought it was you who stated others where using emotive nonsense. Still despite Patrick’s freckled foaming at the mouth and talking in tongues, the point of the debate has really been about does a person have to believe in God (ess) to be a moral or ethical person. Obviously I take and still take the nay just as a feverent belief does not make you a polite humanist traveller in this life as Patrick demonstrates so well.
Now Patrick the real question is are you worth the return of personal insults ..on the balance (now there’s a word you won’t see often in the same sentance as Patricks name)…probably not
Yes there is a greater threat in Indonesia as there idiots who actually think they are clever intelectuals and post here under IM under name such as Lairedion, Oigal (who writes suspiciously like Lairedion) and now you!
Laugh.. I should think Lairedon is mortified now..but none could accuse of overstating things..Do try and keep a perspective..a minor blog comment on an English Blog in a country with limited internet access..a greater threat?? Get a grip..or better yet change hands and grip harder before you loose all self control.
Oigal – Ha ha ha ha! Is that the very best you can do? Where’s your demonstration of courage? Where is the show of wit? What profound thing have you contributed to this discussion? No little boy I wouldn’t waste my time with you intelectually or physically because you just don’t have what it takes do you? That’s why you hide behind your silly little made up name “Oigal” now run along and go play with the other nancy boys on Blok M as there more your speed you very unbalanced flat tire! : > )
Patrick basic name calling now..Tsk Tsk..I don’t know wether to laugh or yawn..You see little pumpkin twas not me getting all aggressive and foaming at the mouth..I was just offered a point of view you disapprove and happened to point out that mindless abuse and threats on the net are boring as you can never be called on them (as well people like you know)
Mmmm not sure if I want to “have what it takes”..tell us Patrick how much do you take and how often?
Awww.. you don’t like Oigal..shucks..some find it sexy and alluring..(I know you keep on coming back. “Profound thing”… Well exposed you as an intolerant, loudmouth for a start.
Nancy boys on Blok M..Eer you need to get out more..not to many nancy boys down that way..although if thats your thing (or perhaps its choir boys..whatever) there are places around town I have heard can’t say for sure tho.
See Patrick really is a no brainer to trade insults so do try and keep the closet pillow biter part of your soul within..it tends to demean you in the eyes of others..
Oh and hey where is the “turn the other cheek and forgiveness bit”.. aww come on..pucker up (bet you hear that a lot)
Thanks this has been a hoot…
@ Oigel – I would have thought by now you would have been enjoying getting your fudge packed by some burly Aussie miner on holiday?
Well Mr. Intellectual where is the intelligent answers to the questions I posed to all you atheist already on this thread? Try even one and see if you can partake in serious discussion or you going to just whine all the day and night long about how good you are even without God? Based on who’s definition? Based on what logic? Prove God doesn’t exist and just don’t bore me to tears with your juvenile answer because he just doesn’t? Now is your chance to put together words that will back up your BIG MOUTH or is that also being occupied by another burly miner?
Outstanding.. I was waiting for you to get off the the personal insult and broaden to the ethnic and national ones..(knew you would..sheesh predictable)..Fancy some loudmouth, God bothering septic tank lecturing someone else on what he should or should believe..What does it take for you to grasp the fact the world has had gutful of the holier than thou atitude which so represents your kind. Take look around sunshine, you aint wanted nor needed.
(Ok..for my USA friends please disregard the above..just lesson to GBP not to play with fire)
As for your semi-coherent follow up question..as has been explained to you many times by many people..Prove God doesn’t exist..is inane…Its pointless to try and prove a negative..Prove Vampires don’t exist…however for me on the balance of probablities and in particular your version..fairly confident to say Nagh!
However..one again..and I will write this slowly so you can read it slowly and comprehend..Its not about if GOD exists or not or what people believe but rather the inane and illogical suggestion that with out such a belief system as person cannot be moral, humanist or ethical.
Speaking of questions, lets just say you have convinced me and I have decided to swing over “the truth”.
In your capacity as the regional representative of the Big Guy..which is the real truth..does it matter? are they all equal? or are some more equal than others? where does your version of truth fit in..1…2..3?
Come on don’t dodge now, I could be wrong but aren’t you bound to save a soul if you can..I know AAB and Chuckie and few others would say I have to embrace..XXXX.. is that correct?
P.S. I have noted your desire for a burely Miner and shall see what can be arranged for you..but no promises ok..
Hi Patrick ! Apparently God exists in your thoughts, apparently not in mine. I’ve been raised in the Catholic religion, & I didn’t like it all, but the figure of Jesus, & especially his skill in talking inspired me very much. But when I was 15 or 16, I’ve been struck by a general book by Edward Conze on Buddhism, and since then I studied Buddhism, later became a “practitioner” in Tibetan Nyingma Buddhism, and later again I stopped it all because all of that — Buddha, God, Paradise & Hell –, appeared to me like children stories, lullabies blinding man from his social duties, etc. But today, I’m a believer again, with a different approach : I believe man can improve & that improvement is infinite. Infinite improvement may be called God, but not necessarily. I wish you the best.
@ Oigal – Your weakening at the knees as I already commented on another thread about the dangers of a fighter having sex before their big bout as it weakens the legs. And a fellow like you is especially vulnerable because of all that time you spend on your knees taking care of your boyfriends.
You keep repeating your nonsense as if you were to say enough it will make perfect sense to everyone else? Guess what? It’s not logical to say you are moral as an atheist because who’s morals would your morality be based upon? You see if your morals are correct on Monday who is to say they will remain correct by Friday as that can change with the introduction of a bigger stronger atheist(s) who may come along and upset poor little bed-wetting (thank you PN) you! See Nazi Germany!, See Stalinist USSR! See Maoist China! The rules were changing constantly so that a fellow living in one of those nations had to ask who will they come for next?
Don’t you follow the postings Oigal? Janma and I already discussed Julian of Norwich and her mysticism and visions concerning how all things in the end will turn out right because of a merciful God? That’s good news for two sinners like us Oigal so follow God with a good heart and do your best to keep the 10 commandments or you can follow whatever the Muslims have as I am not entirely sure of their system of belief! That’s all!
And if you need to further work out that pointless aggression of yours you can always join Marisa, Therry, Rima and Finally Woken and whoever else for the womens mud wresting championship of IM. Anyone here at IM can participate as long as they don’t have a penis so you are well qualified to be in there! Good luck and watch out for Marissa as she liable to kick your gay butt out of the ring! Ha ha ha ha!
…last door …there’s Bill Clinton..lying back on a silk sofa, with Monica L lovingly doing to an intimate part of his body what only monica can do best..
O, I thought she was smoking a cigar.
Fangalong, you have provided a very useful diversion from the dialogue here and have lead me to re-examine or re-remember things that i lost my grasp of a long time ago.
Your post do show some inconsistencies as do mine, inconsistencies are forgivable as i appreciate that sometimes we say something on one level that is untrue on other level. Although the contradiction is reconciled within us, it is not apparent to those who do not share our point of reference.
For example you say: you are an atheist Buddhist, although that is not possible,, you can be a non theistic Buddhist though, although that is embracing one aspect of Buddhism at the expense of another complementary aspect. You are also as you say a believer, but you don’t believe in god, but there is nothing else you can believe in but god, for if you don’t, you believe in yourself which is in Buddhist terms illusionary. God is real not you.
“Everything is perishing save Allah”
The question is what is god , I assume you mean you don’t believe in god as something outside or remote from you, in some remote place in space and time as articulated in Christian theology?
Instead of rejecting being and non being or thinking that you have to chose between one or the other or rejecting both , you are forever trapped between the river of fire and water. Embrace both and become full. Do not practise detachment for detachments sake, a common mistake of aspiring Buddhist.
Patrick- Been thinking about your Aquinas…I’m either not getting it, or you haven’t explained his argument properly. From what i can see so far, he is plain wrong and he was not a metaphysician but a rationalist.
Aquinas seems to posit god in time if he is to be understood as the first cause. This is inconsistent with the eternity of god, which necessitates that time is illusionary. To clarify here is a quote from Mesitar Eckhart, who in my mind is arguably the only Christian who actually was able to articulate enlightenment or god in a manner that is comparable to the Sufis and Taoist/Yogic/Buddhist mystics.
“God makes the world and all things in the present now Time gone a thousand years ago is now as present and near to god as this very instant. To talk about god making the world to-morrow or yesterday would be talking nonsense.”
“The course of heaven is outside time–and yet time comes from its movements. Nothing hinders the soul’s knowledge of God as much as time and space, for time and space are fragments, whereas God is one! And therefore, if the soul is to know God, it must know him above time and outside of space; for God is neither this nor that, as are these manifold things. God is one!”
Eikhart also distinguishes between god and the godhead, as does Ghazzali between the vicegerent and Allah.
Fangalong if you’re trying to reconcile your Christian heritage with your Shanyata strain of Buddhism read some Eckhart. Here is a paragraph that for me works very effectively in reconciling being and non being:
God and being are the same, or god has being from another and thus himself is not god. Everything that is, has the fact of its being through being and from being. Therefore, if being is something different from god, a thing has its being from something other than god. Besides there is nothing prior to being, because that which confers being creates and is a creator. To create is to give being out of nothing.
For Oigal et al,here’s some Eckhart for you to ponder over as well.
“No idea represents or signifies itself. It always points to something else, of which it is a symbol. And since man has no ideas, except those abstracted from external things through the sense, he cannot be blessed by an idea.”
Oh btw Oigal here is a short reply to your earlier question:
A revealed book, a prophet ,a rite, a personal god all belong to the formal order and are thus maya,but its maya that delivers since it is essentially the vehicle of Atma, it is atma in maya. God appeals to mans multiplicity to reintegrate him into unity.
The argument is always the same, namely: if you do good things but do not attribute them to God then it is the devil deceiving you.
The argument doesn’t always have to be framed that way, as long as you continue to frame it within that reference it will only bind you. There is enough diversity within each religion, never mind within the different religions,that approach this whole argument differently. Do you allow yourself to be bound by it as an excuse not to rise above it?
Tsk Tsk Patrick..What fine moral upstanding character you have proven to be, a fair credit to your creed. All too often in these times Muslims are branded as intolerant or dangerous when in fact it is any person or group of persons that get so tied up in their own beliefs they have no tolerance nor the ablity to understand that their way is not only way. You via your rants ably demonstrate that it is not a particular religion to blame but the product of an insecure mind coupled with sheer inablity to accept an alternative view just as much right to exist as your own.
It’s not logical to say you are moral as an atheist because who’s morals would your morality be based upon?
Me Aggression? I am enjoying this..Seriously though, try and stay calm when you reply, as quotes such as the above as just silly beyond words. I may or may not be a moral person that is of course subjective but to condemn all atheists as immoral..logical??
Perhaps the only thing preventing those such as yourself wreaking such havoc and difference between regions is the the rule of law and the fortunate and hard won seperation of church (more correctly religion) and state.
You see Patrick, you are compromised by your very own intolerance, whilst you accuse me of not answering your question and to prove a negative (gee how many times do we have to say that) time and again you have avoided any questions that would challenge your straw man view of the word.
Sadly for you, you have expoused those views on other forums, we all know your views on athesists (paraniod as they are) why don’t you let us know the rest of ideal world and the place for other religions/beliefs (do try and remember that you have spouted elsewhere so a dodge n weave here would prove embarrassing, that sad response is not a true reflection is it now…come on..be honest).
You fixation on homosexuality is something you wish to discuss further as well..any plans for them in Patrick World..Single Mums perhaps..
Patrick, Have you noticed the more secure amongst us don’t give a rats what I think or believe as it has no relevence to their daily lives or their beliefs. At best, the more charitable perhaps feel sorry for me (us) as on the judgement day then if I am wrong then its my problem not yours not theirs. And that my intolerant comrade is how it should be, it is really not such a difficult concept is it?
While personally I don’t believe in the big fella keeping score and looking out for my welfare unlike yourself that doesn’t mean that anyone who doesn’t follow my particular outlook is evil or immoral. In fact, the most honourable and moral person I ever met was a devout Muslim, to this day I stand in awe of the conviction and strength drawn from such beliefs (not the false piety and veneer rubbish so often seen). Such a person never saw the need as act intolerantly and yet then we have yourself as an example of the other end of tolerance. Personally I believe the said person was a such a good person in spite of religion rather than because of it but thats another post.
Anyway, Thanks Patrick..its been fun..do try not to be so paraniod, the gays, the libertines, the secular masses are not storming the ramparts.. after all the only difference between you and athesist is they believe in one less god than you do..