Hats off to to the cheerleaders of Kountze High School in Texas for successfully defending their right to use bible quotes on their banners.
Well Patrick, whilst we are making gratuitous and non relevant comments about Religion. I guess we should also say Hats Off to the Australian Government for appointing a Royal Commission into the systematic, long term abuse of children including the ongoing obstruction and cover ups to avoid both justice and compensation to the victims.
Not revolted yet…
“Further allegations of a church cover-up were made at a Victorian parliamentary inquiry yesterday. A ring of between nine and 15 brothers from the St John of God order were suspected of the unreported deaths of two boys, one of whom was allegedly thrown down stairs.”
Good God! and I use the term on purpose. Can you imagine the terror of that poor child, like something out of a perverted horror movie. This is the organization that dares to preach to others on morality. It’s not like it is restricted to one or two people even one or two countries. This is the an international vehicle of vice, misery and corruption.
Oh before you start Patrick any defence Patrick don’t forget to explain the legal shenanigans in the USA as the cult dodges payments to victims and continues its cover ups.
I read several news accounts that say that the NASA rover named “Curiosity” has found no evidence to date that life of any kind ever existed on Mars. Hmmmmmm…… Wasn’t Mars always touted by scientists to be the most likely planet, in our solar system, to find life or signs that there was once life outside of Earth? What if the only life forms of any kind exist Olson Earth? So how did life come only to our planet? It seems to me that leaves only one possible explanation.
Curious, I just googled NASA curiosity, life on Mars and got about 100 hits saying that life on Mars was being more and more likely. Perhaps time to cancel the Life Site (laugh) News subscription Patrick.
But hey just for fun, let’s do it you your way. Out of the ten gazzillion planets out there only this one ended up with life. Hmmm so the others were just a waste hardly a design…So you are right ..There can be only one explantion…Random Chance..Welcome to our side.
Let’s not forget Europa, one of Jupiter’s moons:) We haven’t been there yet!
Mmmm Actually I cannot believe Patrick handed me that free kick. Until the church starts acting honourably in addressing its very human failings I guess its not easy defending the faith at the moment.
Well Oigal, we have been to this rodeo before so your answer is no surprise to me. In the past, I have been extremely clear that I have absolutely zero tolerence for priests or other religious who engage in homosexual conduct or any kind of child abuse. Nor do I have any for members of the Church hierarchy that coverup these crimes. Better to have one good shepherd than a dozen bad ones.
God in both the New and Old Testament is extremely clear and that is Homosexuality is blasphemy in His eyes as it was not He who brought this into the World. I would say with confidence that any priest who abuses children sexually or who engages in homosexual acts of any kind does so outside the realm of God and Church. The Church has over a billion members worldwide and thousands upon thousands of priests and religious. The great majority of them are very good dedicated men and women are being persecuted for the crimes of a few.
Indeed we have Patrick and as you say I expect no less an answer from you. Unfortunately your statement “The great majority of them are very good dedicated men and women are being persecuted for the crimes of a few.” is at best the grossest use of rose tinted glasses at worst a fundamental misrepresentation of the issue.
Firstly your statement would infer that it is just a few rogue evil doers within the organization and that is simply not the case as the investigations in Ireland, USA and Europe would attest (this is not two or three dirty old men). The disease is rife throughout the organization and worse the organization itself continues to hinder, hide and protect those that offend all in placing its own well being above those it is supposed to comfort and protect. Australia in fact has had appoint a Royal Commission to try and get through the dark cover-ups and outright lies of the organization as it squirms kicking and screaming in the sunlight.
Pretty simple really Patrick, Answer the following questions honestly, none of which are unreasonable?
Why does the institution allow various dioceses to declare bankruptcy to avoid compensation payments to victims of its crimes? Are you going to tell me this is still not occurring?
If it is really just a “few” why has there been major investigations around the world and in each and every case, proven systemic abuse proven?
If this was any other business do you not think the CEO would be facing gaol time for enabling a culture of abuse to exist and thrive?
Did you read the report about the poor child abused over years and years (along with his fellow boarders) and who was then thrown down the stairs to ensure his silence? Why was and is the apology from the CEO of this nest of vipers?
Patrick, I have no doubt you are fine if deluded fellow and like the good dedicated men (and the second class women) do fine things but human race continues to astound me with what they will over look in the name of religion.
Lastly, homosexuality is not of itself abuse and it is a grotesque distortion to compare it to the systemic abuse of children.
But Patrick, that is boring as we know you will never lift the veil from your eyes so lets deal with the fun part..
Out of the ten gazzillion planets out there only this one ended up with life. Hmmm so the others were just a waste hardly a design…So you are right ..There can be only one explantion…Random Chance..Welcome to our side.
And if they found life on Mars what then Oigal? Would that mean, by your logic ( a very curious one) that there must be a God? I imagine that you didn’t think this all he way through….
Hmmmm Avoiding the question again Patrick. It is not what I think at issue here.
It was your post that somehow as there are gazillions and gazillions of planets and if only earth was proven to have life then somehow that proves the existence of a GOD? My question to you remains if that is the case, then its a crappy and very wasteful design, obviously your GOD is not an eco warrior as he tends to waste resources.
As an aside, In a virtually infinite universe is astounds me that people can actually cling to the theory that only earth would have life. It is a mere numbers game.
Actually Oigal finding life outside of Earth really doesn’t prove the existence or non-existence of God. However, not finding any life beyond Earth does make a huge difference concerning theories of origin and particularly toward how life began. It would rule out evolution, and why is that, because if life was not anywhere else prior to the Earth coming into being than it would be impossible for it to appear out of nothing without a creator. That old gal would be extremely significant
“I have absolutely zero tolerence for priests or other religious who engage in homosexual conduct or any kind of child abuse. Nor do I have any for members of the Church hierarchy that coverup these crimes.”
I assume that you have zero tolerance for the current Pontiff; Herr Ratzinger then? He was central to the cover up, you see.
Circular logic but proving nothing Ross. Evolution has not needed aliens to stand up as the most probable so far so why would it need them now?? I know we have covered it before (actually not covered really), but the inherent flaw in the creator series…Who made the Creator?
@Brother M, – I didn’t mince my words did I? However, are the accusations of coverup entirely fair to Pope Benedict or was he moving too slowly and methodically giving the accused their due diligence before declaring them guilty of such crimes? It must be conceded the sexual abuse is widespread through the Church but all the accused must be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt prior to conviction of these heinous assaults. As you are likely aware turning investigations into witch hunts have a tendency toward injustice as many innocent people are wrongly accused and convicted. Hope this answers your question. @yahoo.com
“I didn’t mince my words did I?”
Well no. So if I can take it that you do suspect or recognize Ratzinger’s complicity in the cover up of systematic child rape, then doesn’t that make you question the whole Catholic Church’s validity?
Being a Catholic is not like supporting a football team, where you can love your team, but hate the manager. If you’re a Catholic, you are required to believe that the pope is the direct representative of God on earth and that his word (on church affairs) is the word of God.
When you realize that this man; allegedly chosen to be God’s Mouthpiece on earth, is the same man who issued a confidential letter to Bishops stating that anyone (victim or investigator) who reported a child rape to the authorities would be excommunicated, it becomes difficult to have any more faith in the institution as a whole, surely?
Hi Patrick and Merry Christmas.
I do appreciate you commenting here as it makes an interesting counterpoint to those that accuse all Muslims as being blind to logic with regards to their faith.
Did you note the wonderful Christmas present that the Pope gave to all those children of abuse? “Pope Beneict today appointed Reverend Robert Oliver as the promoter of justice at the Vatican office that reviews all abuse cases”. Of course as Rev Rob was the previous legal advisor to the Boston diocese (you know the one, kiddie fiddlers hq) one can safely assume that he had full knowledge of the diocese’s Cardinal at that time keeping abusive priests working in parishes.
I find it curious that we oh so often hear the shrill (and rightly fully so) demand that moderate Muslims take control of the evil within their organisations but tell me what does it take for the Catholic Church to do the same? Religion of all kinds really does induce moral blindness doesn’t it.
I am honestly puzzled how any rational person can continue to support a CEO that is more concerned about the image of the church than his flock.
Oh, you still ave not explained how the church continues to justify morally bankruptcy to avoid compensation to its victims? Bankruptcy indeed?
Sometimes I confess I wish you were right about heaven and hell because there would be a special hell for those above.
The Sompnour in his stirrups high he stood,
Upon this Friar his hearte was so wood,
That like an aspen leaf he quoke for ire:
“Lordings,” quoth he, “but one thing I desire;
I you beseech, that of your courtesy,
Since ye have heard this false Friar lie,
As suffer me I may my tale tell
This Friar boasteth that he knoweth hell,
And, God it wot, that is but little wonder,
Friars and fiends be but little asunder.
For, pardie, ye have often time heard tell,
How that a friar ravish’d was to hell
In spirit ones by a visioun,
And, as an angel led him up and down,
To shew him all the paines that there were,
In all the place saw he not a frere;
Of other folk he saw enough in woe.
Unto the angel spake the friar tho;
‘Now, Sir,’ quoth he, ‘have friars such a grace,
That none of them shall come into this place?’
‘Yes’ quoth the angel; ‘many a millioun:’
And unto Satanas he led him down.
‘And now hath Satanas,’ said he, ‘a tail
Broader than of a carrack is the sail.
Hold up thy tail, thou Satanas,’ quoth he,
‘Shew forth thine erse, and let the friar see
Where is the nest of friars in this place.’
And less than half a furlong way of space
Right so as bees swarmen out of a hive,
Out of the devil’s erse there gan to drive
A twenty thousand friars on a rout.
And throughout hell they swarmed all about,
And came again, as fast as they may gon,
And in his erse they creeped every one:
He clapt his tail again, and lay full still.
This friar, when he looked had his fill
Upon the torments of that sorry place,
His spirit God restored of his grace
Into his body again, and he awoke;
But natheless for feare yet he quoke,
So was the devil’s erse aye in his mind;
That is his heritage, of very kind
God save you alle, save this cursed Frere;
My prologue will I end in this mannere.
From the Canterbury Tales of course, I always liked the Dutch translation a bit better, and speaking of the Canterbury Tales, they’re filming Hyperion now, the four part Hyperion series from writer Dan Simmons which was partly based on the Canterbury Tales, if you haven’t read it, it’s some of the best science fiction ever written. The movie is going to be terrible (even Dan Simmons himself says so), typical dumbed down Hollywood stuff, you need at least a series or a Lord Of The Rings type of thing to pull it of and they’re going to do it in about 90 minutes…..
but ehrrr…. continue, continue…..
@Brother Mouzone – As professor Murphy, my freshman literature teacher, would say ” a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” You prove that in spades as you have wrongly again accused the Pope of saying that he would excommunicate any priest or investigator who reports an act of child abuse. I believe the source of this libelous accusation was a so called investigative reporter named Christopher Hutchins. Mr. Hutchins, wrongfully created this accusation after the pope read a passage from “Crimminis Sollicitationis and that was written in 1962 and that Pope Benedict noted was under review. “Crimminis Sollicitationis” actually addressed priests who made confessions of abuse to other priests under the seal of the confessional. The seal of the confessional has been a staple of the Catholic Church from the beginning and no priest is supposed to break this confidence no matter what the sinner has confessed. The excommunication mention by the passage referred to anyone breaking that sacred trust. Mr. Hutchins either deliberately or neglectfully omitted this fact and therefore his poor research and reporting has caused considerable and undeserved damage to the reputation of Pope Benedict.
Happy New Year Patrick.
There is something borderline grotesque about the Defenders of the Faith using terms such as libelous when the organisation has and continues to be involved in no less than a criminal conspiracy of silence and obstruction covering up world wide culture of debauchery and abuse. Since we are speaking legal terms what is the legal term for the various parishes declaring themselves bankrupt to avoid payments to victims? I know what the moral term is…vile!
Interesting you raise the seal of the confessional as that is about to be challenged by the Royal Commission in Child Abuse in Australia. Yes Patrick yet another Commission to attempt to break the culture of obstruction and abuse, it is indeed a testament to blind faith that this world wide cancerous organisation continues to exist and it’s CEO has not been imprisoned for life.
However I digress, it was not the appointment of the commission that was interesting (it had to be done after relevations by police of systematic abuse and interference into investigations by the church), the interesting thing was the statement on confessions by senior church representative in Australia. Essentially, this man advised priests if they suspected child abuse not to take the confession. It is important to note he did not say report the crime, go to the police ,..no just refuse the confession…save the church…screw the victim..
As I said it remains a testament to faith that seemingly good people can continue to defend the indefensible.
Hello Oigal my old pal/ we been arguing since b4 time began/ Heaven above us and below we are in hell/ we got two views somewhere off in the distance/ I proclaim good news and you claim its all by chance/ tell me I am right, tell me I am right/ do you really want to fight a man who is always right/
Somehow I can’t get through to you/ somewhere out there is someone who cares/ however you say we live and we die the rest is futile/ two peas in a pod with nothing to share/ Heaven above us but life down here is so cruel/ the audience long gone but we are arguing like two mules/ tell me I am right, tell me I am right/ do you really want to fight a man who is always right/
Someone said a man and a woman are forever/ but man decided he was much more clever/ he drew his sword and her head was severed/ One day we will stand together in judgement of the other/ you will say its an impossibility based on the laws of probability/ I will say it will based on the good book’s word/ on and on we go on and on/ tell me I am right, tell me I am right/ do you really want to fight a man who is always right.
@Oigal – Why is it that the Catholic Church pedeophile problem is the only thing you can bring up in defense of Atheism? Indonesia Matters conveniently forgets that the occurrences of pedeophile are staggeringly higher among Protestant Ministers than Catholic priests. IM never bring up the many Jewish rabbis who have been accused or convicted of sexually abusing children. And what about Islam which contains whole passage supporting marriage between children and adults. However, I do recall on another thread on IM that Mohammed’s marriage to a very young child was somewhat discussed. Now we are also addressing the support of child abuse by infamous atheistic organizations such as NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). This open homosexual organization calls for the decriminalization of laws preventing adults from having openly sexual relationships with children. Funny thing Oigal is that you have spent months and even years tearing into the Catholic Church concerning the pedeophile scandal but you never mentioned atheisms part in advocating these types of abuses so the question is why? Why do you not ever discuss Harvey Hay an admitted atheist and the so called father of American Homosexual Activism and a strong supporter of NAMBLA?
Dodge, weave and deny, you truly do represent the organization faithfully.
Tell it to the 12 year old kid they killed when they threw him down the stairs of the boys home and those vile creatures never faced justice secure in the protection of “those that care”.
@Oigal – to believe in the Catholic Faith is to believe in the Supernatural. To believe in the Faith is to believe that there is a God who made Heaven and Earth, all things seen and unseen. To believe in these things is to acknowledge a struggle for souls between God and Satan. This is a war between Good and Evil and there are no boundaries meaning both will try to enter upon a human beings spirit in the hope of capturing that person’s soul for all of Eternity. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ to be a beacon of light in a dark World. This makes it the most important source of Earthly Good for human beings and therefore the Enemy of Satan who will do everything in his power to bring down the Church. The devil is presented in the New Testament as trying to tempt Christ, unsuccessfully, with Worldly goods and possessions.
The Church through its two thousand year plus history has been attacked many times by evil and even has been penetrated by evil itself in attempt to overthrow its power of Good. Christ even warns Peter and the apostles of this but also predicts that the Catholic Church will prevail against the gates of Hell. Right now, in this time period of History, we are witnessing numerous attacks against the Church and there have been many sources of these attacks but with one objective and that is to fully discredit the Church and by doing so to force the Faithful to turn away from God. This is the evil of atheism which uses the sin of pride to worship the vanity of man while simataneously denying the existence of God. This is the same sin found in homosexuals who love and worship their own image and therefore reject God’s plan for procreation through the sanctity of Holy marriage. It is the same sin found in abortion that man can decide to destroy life and deny that a child may enter the world as God intended. The very same sin found in premarital sex and extramarital affairs that man may decide that his morality is his decision over God’s. It is also the same sin found in pedeophiles who attack the most innocent of our society, young children.
Have pedeophiles entered the Church? Have homosexuals established themselves in many seminaries and the priesthood? Have Bishops and clergy attempted to cover up these evils? The answer is yes to all of these questions and I have never offered nor do i now attempt to defend the guilty parties of their gross misconduct and negligence. Do I feel that the victims of these crimes should be acknowledged with an apology and some sort of compensation for the physical and mental anguish and scars they suffered? My answer is again yes.
With all these things said we must never forget all the great Good that the Catholic Church has given the World since it’s establishment by Christ. This includes very significant accomplishments in education, medicine, music, philosophy, art,science, mathematics, literature, feeding the hungry, clothing and sheltering the poor as well as many other contributions to the benefit of man. We should also remember less than 2% of the clergy have ever been found guilty of being a pedeophile, so that they are hardly representative of the vast majority of religious,who are mainly good hardworking dedicated people who are often sacrificing themselves for the benefit of others.
We,members of the Catholic Faith welcome all converts, even former atheists, who once denounced our Church. One of the more recent converts is Leah Libresco a famous atheist blogger. News of her conversion was carried by CNN.
Another convert a few years back was RJ Stone, son of the very famous Australien atheist David Stone. Please see these conversion stories, as well as others, at http://www.whyimcatholic.com
RJ Stone included a quote attributed to the Irish writer Bernard Shaw that I have included here for your enjoyment. “The science to which I have pinned my faith is bankrupt. It’s counsels, which should have established the millennium led, instead , directly to the suicide of Europe. I believed them once, in their name I helped to destroy the faith of millions of worshipers in the temple of a thousand creeds. And now I look at me and witness the great tragedy of an atheist who has lost his faith”.
Gee Patrick, out of all that nearly a whole paragraph addressing the issue at hand? A sorry and some sort of compensation?
As I said before, you are indeed a classic representation of the church. Instead of trying to down play the issue “only 2% have ever been found guilty” which is actually an amazing figure considering the continual cover ups, lies, obstruction and general illegal acts by the church. Can you not see the world is waiting to see if the church can ever take the high moral ground again.
Your 2% statement is stunning! Do you really not get why countries around the world have had to appoint special investigators and Royal Commissions? It’s not to retry that 2% but to pry open the door on the filth that still thrives with the church’s protection. It’s a bit rich to accuse others of doing the devils work until the Church actually starts putting people before the organisation.
I ask you again is the Church still using bankruptcies to avoid payment to victims.
Is the Church still refusing to provide documents and evidence to legal authorities investigating claims of abuse.
Let’s make it easy, let’s consider only australia, the USA and the UK for now?
We don’t need long drawn out posts..simple yes or no
BTW, I think it is way off beam and somewhat repugnant to place homosexuals in the same box abusive clergy but that another post for another time.
@Oigal – You should make more effort to educate yourself as there are significant scientific studies that link homosexuals, both men and women, to being victims of child abuse in their childhood. The abuse reported by homosexuals participating in these studies was statistically off the charts compared to heterosexuals reporting abuse. It’s about time the left of center media started to present the true facts about causes leading to homosexuality and the truth be told. CHILD ABUSE IN ANY FORM IS WRONG!
Thanks Patrick, I am unable to find any reputable study that links child abuse to homosexuality perhaps you could provide a link.
However, happy as I am to debate that with you at another time, it is a red herring to the topic at hand which is the continuing immoral acts of the church in regards to the investigation into systemic and world wide abuse of children. Let’s be frank, as a parent I would be far more concerned my lad had been chosen for choir practice than discovering his maths teacher was gay.
I certainly do not infer in anyway that you and many others in the church do not find such abuse repugnant, however what continually bemuses me is your continued Defence of the such a obviously flawed culture. If I may direct you back onto the topic at hand, is it still official and accepted practice for the church to declare bankruptcy to avoid payments to victims? Is the church still refusing to hand over documents and evidence to those legally tasked to investigate claims of abuse?
To be fair Patrick, I did go and check for your do called Studies. With the exception of sources such as NARTH and other crypto – religious pseudoscience mobs there is nothing there. Suffice to say it’s hard to take a science “fact” from mobs who also claim that the earth is 2000 years old and Noah’s Ark is the literal truth.
University of Otago, New Zealand with a sampling of 13,000 people, University of Toronto, California School of Professional Psychology, Drs., William Holmes and Gail Slap report in Jama linking strong evidence of child abuse and the development of homosexual behavior, The University of Minnesota, University of Pennsylvania, City University of New York, are some of the sources of a link between homosexuality and child abuse. Do you think that’s enough or do you want me to go on?
Patrick, As mentioned happy to discuss your issues in understanding correlation and causation later but it is a Red Herring to the subject at matter which is the continued resistance by the church as an organisation in rooting out the evil within.
Rather than what you posted, more to the point I note this week that the Church’s own internal investigation has been stopped in Germany as the lead investigator resigned due to continued resistance from Bishops and Cardinals making the process unviable to continue. I refer you yet again to the simple questions posted (no I am not going to write them again). I really don’t get why you cannot see the problem but I have come to accept (and find repugant) these religious blind spots.