And as you stated one that still haunts Indonesia, so I guess your right, what’s to worry about? : )
Well if you are Indonesian, a fair bit to worry about, however externally probably not too much on the Military Expansionist side anyway.
You still have not provided a link for these key speeches, so I assume they don’t exist. Not sure that a one liner throw away at a governors conference actually supports your rather big call that the major reason the USA to enter Vietnam was to save Indonesia from communism.
Although pretty safe to say
the statement concerning the cheapest way to protect Indonesia was to finance the French in their fight against the Vietnamese was made at a 1952 USA governors conference as Eisenhower was asked why he was sending $400 million USD for that purpose.
He pretty much missed the mark on all levels, firstly not Millions but billions, secondly Vietnam fell anyway and lastly the fall of Vietnam did not end up with the entire region including Australia and New Zealand turning communist.
Many things worry me much more than an improbable Indonesian military aggression (standard border spats excluded). In fact, the ugly and destabilizing lurch to the looney religious right by the USA is far scarier than anything Indonesia is doing.
On Papua, your knowledge of Indonesia would again appear to be fairly superficial. Actually, the annexation of was started with fairly equal doses of Nationalist and PKI agendas. Curiously, I note you skip over the East Timor debacle.
Anyway, I think I have had enough fun with this. Thanks.
Seriously Patrick, lets be honest to finish off. What is it that makes you think that Indonesia would be a larger threat to the stability of the region than say China, North Korea or even Burma for that matter? All of which have standing armies that Indonesia will only dream about for generations combined with nutty leaders or a distinct aggressive external posture? Come on fess up…its a religious thing isn’t it?
@ Oigal – actually Eisenhower gave the French $400 million and not billion in 1952 but by the war’s end in 1954 the USA was said to be financing upwards of 80% of the total war cost incurred in Vietnam by the French. Yes, Vietnam did fall and yes neighboring countries didnt necessarily fall to communism but the War did effect negatively upon Cambodia and Laos as you, no doubt, read about in your history books. However, I still don’t understand exactly what your trying to convey about the Domino Theory being disproven, so that it couldn’t possibly have been a reason to go to war? Well WMDs were disproven in Iraq but it was still one of the primary reasons that America invaded Iraq. As far as Irian Jaya was concerned I thought we reached agreement but apparently,not so, as you think Sukarno and the PKI were in cahoots together against the British for establishing Malaysia.
You are complaining that I don’t supply you with “links” to prove the existence of statements made by Eisenhower and Nixon. As you must be aware, I have been on this site for more than a few years and I don’t supply links as a personal policy. I will tell you that the man who directed most of the action and knew everything the USA was doing in Indonesia was Richard M.Nixon, who in his capacity as vice-president, chaired the Clandestine Commitee known as Special Group 54102/2. This would have included the CIA massive effort to overthrow the Sukarno Government in Sumatra in 1958. An operation that size, involving almost 50,000 small arms, submarines, bomber planes, bases in Okinawa, Philippines and Indonesia and tens of thousands of rebels was somehow kept secret from the American public though the rest of the world knew. You said follow the moneywell dearest Oigal, calculate the time, effort and expense America and it’s allies put into discrediting Sukarno and finally overthrowing his government. Add those figures to the size able American investments in the country,then add up all the raw materials American companies were raking in at the expense of the Indonesian people. What America established in Indonesia was a new type of colonialism that involved keeping in power a brutal military dictatorship that was supportive of American interests as long as their pockets were full as well.
@ Oigal – You asked what threat does Indonesia pose to its neighbors? Well let’s look as ASEAN more closely as they just met not long ago in Phnom Penh. The meeting ended without a group consensus how best to deal with increased aggression to toward some ASEAN members. It was said that this was the first time in 45 years that ASEAN failed to conclude a joint statement on an issue. The Phillippines even went so far to criticize the host nation, Cambodia, for the way it handled the sensitive topic during the minister’s meeting. As you likely know, Indonesia has always tried to keep a neutral stance and, as reported in the Jakarta newspapers, it was sending its diplomats to ASEAN member states to try to mend fences over the issue. The problem remains that China has been courting Indoniesia in recent years and has offered a great amount of military assistance and training to the Indonesian military. This includes building a factory to produce missiles in Indonesia and being supplied with jet fighter planes and gun boats. All this looks suspicious to ASEAN countries such as he Philippines and Vietnam who increasingly see Indonesia getting too cozy with China. This relationship brings into question Indonesia neutrality and indeed leadership in ASEAN as the largest economy among the member states. Tension are definitely rising in the South China Sea and it remains to be seen if China will be successful or not in dividing ASEAN to the point where it becomes dysfunctional and breaks apart.
You seem to be missing the Point, Patrick. US intervention was hardly cheap (not millions but billions) so Einsenhower was pretty much wrong on all accounts.
Domino Theory, I stated it was discredited which it obviously was after the fall of Vietnam. You and your mate on the other hand seemed to suggest it was was not discredited (bizarrely, I might add considering the obvious history). Indeed it was the prime justification the US gave for interfering in another nations affairs and same as the WMD ultimately falsehoods with the ramifications to be felt by the US and others for decades. Unfortunately, it is never solely left to the US to clean up the mess and deal with foreign policy based on shallow intelligence and home politics.
Laos and Cambodia, but lets not underplay the duplicity and betrayal of sovereign governments by…oh I will let you guess.
As for Papua again your history seems to be off beam. Communism (or fear of) played a very large part in the Papua betrayal..Here’s a bit from
Robert H. Johnson (the National Security Council Staff) wrote a letter to a Mr. Bundy (President’s Special Assistant for National Security Affairs)
Some Fundamentals With Respect to West New Guinea
We must conclude that it is in our interests that a solution be devised which will lead to accesion of West New Guinea to Indonesia. .
In order to accomplish this objective we must make very clear to the Dutch that we are not taken in by the idea that self- determination principle has any reality when applied to West New Guinea. We must also talk very frankly with them (and with the Australians) about the danger of the loss of Indonesia to Communism by the West New Guinea issue
It is always heartening to read that the definition of free will and self determination only applies as it suits.
As for the rest of your post, I am glad you are finally conceding the the myth of the US striding across the world bringing freedom and joy to the masses is well at best over blown. No doubt the USA is better than most but anyone who thinks she is the ultimate light on the hill had better tread carefully.
Lastly, Patrick you were the one who originally made the strange claim that the primary reason the USA in imposed itself on Vietnam, (propping up a Minority Religious (Catholic) Government that did not have the people’s support) in order to save Indonesia from the evil Reds. Now most people would agree that is a fairly “bold” claim to make. A simple request to reference this seems to be beyond you (To be fair, I did re-check some of my references and sorry no deal. Patrick, jumping up and down in the corner does not make something so. In fact, the more you evade the issue, the more it appears it is just another Paddy flight of fancy.
Domino Theory, I stated it was discredited which it obviously was after the fall of Vietnam
How about all those countries in Central Asia, South America, South East Asia, Africa, Central Europe and so on? It is a breathtakingly ignorant comment and shows just how far up their own arses commie apologists are. Communism spread like a cancer over most of the planet. Some still suffer untold misery to this day.
It is ironic that people are locked up in jail for questioning the holocaust and are widely considered nutters. Yet we have freaks like Oigal who deny the deaths of over a hundred million people (with the atrocities still continuing) and we tolerate them!
In recent history socialism has eclipsed religion in terms of death and oppression of the masses. Both rely on faith rather than empirical evidence for support. As I have already said, it is not just the theists who are prone to believe strange things.
Stevie, As you know I tend as rule to ignore your frothing and foaming however today I am feeling a bit of pity for you.
To save yourself humiliation by ignorance read up on what the Domino Theory was/is. To dispute the theory itself has nothing to do with supporting communism (nor not) you complete numpty. Secondly, do try and refrain from the name calling as you are out of your league.
The Domino Theory in South East Asia as promoted by the United States was very simply that if Vietnam fell to communism then so would the rest of the region including Australia and New Zealand. It was simplistic nonsense then and is now.
As for Eastern Europe, do try and take a deep breath before engaging. I will keep it simple for you and write slowly. As has already been explained before, the various Asian wars were largely indigenous or nationalist with widespread civil opposition to the various US/French/British-backed regimes in these countries had generated because of entrenched official corruption and widespread human rights abuses. The population generally (at least at first) bought the utopia myth of communism and shared wealth whereas the Eastern European countries had communism imposed upon them.
I understand the differences are probably a little to subtle for you but there is a plethora (means lots) of balanced documents out there, some with pictures. In all sincerity, I suggest perhaps less time on the internet and more time reading, it will make you less one dimensional and certainly more interesting (although a funny hat would probably do the same and require less thought).
Enjoy your night.
I am aware of the Domino Theory and stand by my comments. The fact you can reference left leaning socialist academics, to support your version of events, does not detract from the validity of my observations, it adds to it. The “Theory” is not discredited, but is supported by observation. I could not give a toss what you read in a book somewhere and it does not impress me at all.
It is easy to see what informs your views Oigal. You gave the show away with blaming the evil Capitalists of the USA, Britain and France (“White” folk). This is classic lefty Marxist, academic drivel. I hope you did not pay too much for that (so called) education.
You run back to your Noam Chomsky book to learn about the world. I will continue to listen to the people who have lived through it and will base my ideas on observable reality. Just for shits and giggles, I may run your theory that it’s all the fault of the white man/capitalists past my Cambodian mates. They tend to blame Pol Pot, poor dumb bastards. But hay, who can blame them, they did not get much education (like you) after the communist soldiers butchered their families and they were stuck in refugee camps in Thailand. They are doing great now though, in the countries of the evil white capitalists you mentioned.
The Jakarta Globe recently reported on a story that got my interest. It was about the Indonesian presidential candidate Prabowo Subianto giving a lecture in Singapore concerning his position that Indonesians needs to become more nationalistic in their outlook. This in itself is rather benign as he means that the country must become more focused on issues that are critical to its future success. Mr. Subianto included natural resources and food security as priorities for the government to tackle. He then provided statistics that warned that Indonesia’s oil reserves will likely be depleted in 12 years and it’s gas reserves gone in about 32 years. As Indonesia continues to modernize and the country therefore becomes more dependent on fossil fuels how will it cope having to import almost 100% of its energy needs? Will this realization pull Indonesia further into the China camp at the expense of its ASEAN membership? Remember that the current posturing over small islands, in the South China Sea, is about the tremendous amount of oil and gas believed to be under the sea beds. This is all conjecture on my part of course but now we have a scenario where lack of fossil fuels starts to halt the biggest economy in ASEAN. We have already witnessed in recent months the reaction of the Indonesian public when fuel prices were going off subsidy and the counter-reaction of the government to reverse itself. What will it be like when inflation brought on by rising fuel prices becomes a permanent part of life in a country of 240 million plus people? The clock is indeed ticking on Indonesia so the question is who will lead the country and in what direction?
You raise some valid points Patrick although your conclusions would seem to fly in the face of your own data.
Will this realization pull Indonesia further into the China camp at the expense of its ASEAN membership? Remember that the current posturing over small islands, in the South China Sea, is about the tremendous amount of oil and gas believed to be under the sea beds
Actually, I would suggest the opposite as Indonesia becomes more of a competitor with China. Same as most other nations in the region are boosting defence spending to counter the aggressive and expansive resource drive from China.
I enjoy how so many debates on IM centre around what someone else thought of an historical event or predicts for the future.
It is very fitting that this discussion is taking place on the Atheist thread. I can not tell the difference between the Pat’s bible quotes and Oigals leftist rants.
Same as most other nations in the region are boosting defence spending to counter the aggressive and expansive resource drive from China.
Yup, looks like a Leftist Rant to me..ya numpty.
Poor example Oigal. You just said that every one is ganging up on the glorious workers paradise.
I could have simply said that exceptions do not make a rule. I am not too concerned about specifics, rather the general direction of a persons views.
@Stevo – you said “I am not to concerned about specifics…” How true.! How true! But didn’t anyone ever tell you the devil is in the details. : )
@Oigal – Speaking of not paying attention to the details your not thinking the Chinese strategy through to see how and why they would want to draw Indonesia into their camp rather than risk war as an adversary. First, ASEAN is made up of 10 countries with a combined population of 650 million people or so which means. 1/3 of them live in Indonesia which is by far the largest Economy in ASEAN. As you know, Indonesia controls the most important shipping lane in Asia, the Straight of Malucca. We already showed in earlier posts that 80% of China’s oil and other important economies of Asian including Japan, Taiwan and South Korea travel through the Straight. The strategic location of Indonesia from a military view can never be taken for granted. Indonesia position on the map enables it to have an advantageous flanking position against all its neighbors if it aligns with China. It s location also means it could isolate Australia and New Zealand in the event of a wider conflict. Do not ever think that the Chinese have not considered all this. Ask yourself why would the Chinese be upset by Australia allowance of a small attachment of Marines to be based in its Northern Territory? Have you considered Chinese investment in Indonesia to be approximately $6 billion in the last seven or so years with $3billion of that coming during the last 12 months. In case you are wondering they are investing in agriculture, energy and food. The very same areas that Prabowo Subianto said Indonesians needed to become nationalistic. I read Mr. Subianto’s biography and he is a man who Indonesians needs to scrutinize very carefully before empowering him with the presidency.
I read Mr. Subianto’s biography and he is a man who Indonesians needs to scrutinize very carefully before empowering him with the presidency.
No doubt about that Patrick. Just some advice (I should take it myself) best not to respond to Stevie, its best to leave him with his imaginary friends, the detective, the lawyer, the jilbab girl etc. Talking with him is like riding a Vesper, kind of fun but not something to be proud of and not something you want your mates to find out about.
Here that Patrick, Oigal forbids you to talk with me.
If Oigal had his way, dissenting views would not be allowed and posts that show up his hypocrisy would be edited/deleted. Pop on over to the The Drum and see for yourself. It is not hard to see how this chap may be a little soft on authoritarian regimes.
He is also fond of disinformation and fantastic attempts to discredit the person, rather than the argument.
But moving onto more interesting things:
it could isolate Australia and New Zealand
To be fair NZ could hardly be more isolated than it already is. It also fell under communist rule years ago with the dreadful Helen Clark’s Labour Party. They are trying to rebuild now.
its best to leave him with his imaginary friends, the detective, the lawyer, the jilbab girl etc.
You missed out: Muslim hating, xenophobe, rape apologist, misogynistic, racist, who shoots little children for sport. It has been a while since you trotted out that rubbish. I thought you had gone soft on me.
I really do enjoy your rants. I find the contrast between your view and those who know me (reality), to be refreshing and entertaining. I admire your role as the resident troll on IM, but I am disappointed that the more lucid contributors are leaving as a result of your nonsense. They really need to harden up a bit and understand how vacuous your posts are.
Speaking of Domino theory, on my last visit back home, I found that a friend of mine had started a construction business called “Domino Builders”.
I asked him why he would name a construction business after an object that is mostly famous for falling over.
He went quiet and we didn’t talk much after that.
Prabowo is an interesting candidate; horrible human rights record (which the electorate really don’t seem to give a damn about), but he seems to have the bearing of a Suharto/Sukarno style strongman and, God knows, Indonesians love a strong leader.
In a recent interview he was asked about democracy and said; “I don’t think it is feasible to turn back the clock. Whatever I would like to do, I don’t think it is feasible.” Which implies that he would like to turn the clock back to a less democratic era. In the MSNBC article, Kevin O’Rourke (a really smart guy who has forgotten more about Indonesia than I will ever know) seems deeply concerned about the prospects for trade and democracy under Prabowo.
I think Prabowo will probably be Indonesia’s next president. But I also think that his pro-poor, insular saber-rattling might not last for long after he is elected once he is confronted with the reality of international trade. How he will react to his inevitable drop in popularity during his first and second term will be interesting to see. His comments suggest that he is not above making his position a little more permanent if he sees fit.
Going back to the question why the Vietnam War was fought, Oigal seems to believe that Indonesia was irrelevant as a reason. My initial arguments said that the protection of Indonesia from falling. Into communist hands was as good a reason as any for the involvement of the USA in the conflict. To no surprise, Oigal, was of the position that Indonesia was at best a footnote in the War as he could find nothing to persuade him otherwise. With that in mind I decided to approach the question of Indonesia’s importance toward Australia foreign policy during the period and with particular emphasis with the decision to support the USA in Vietnam.
Honestly Oigal, how could you ignore all the evidence pertaining to the fact that Indonesia’s perceived threat to Australia’s security forced it to discern that the USA was the only military power operating in Asia that was capable of offering significant protection from its Northern neighbor. The Canberra government led by PM Robert Menzie pursed a “quid pro quo” policy of helping the Americans by becoming an ally in Vietnam would result in American defense of Australia should that need ever arise. The historians Peter Edwards and William Pember both agree with this premise. “The China threat is hyperbole, Indonesia, not China, was the real concern…”
@Oigal – If you wish to find the quote attributed to President Eisenhower speaking about the importance of the French – Iundochins War please see President Eisenhower’s remarks at the Governors’ Conference, August 4. 1953, p. 540.
“All of the weakening position around there is very ominous for the United States, because finally if we lost all that, how would the Free World hold the ricjh empire of Indonesia. So you see somewhere along the line, this must be blocked. That is what the French are doing.
“So when the United States votes $400 millon to help the war, we are not voting for a free giveaway program. We are voting for the cheapest way that we can to prevent the occurence of something that would be of the most terrible significance for the United States of America – our security, our power and ability to get certain thngs we need from the riches of the Indonesian territory, and from Southeast Asia.”
Yes BM it is a most curious group of presidential candidates. It is difficult to find a redeeming feature amongst the lot of them. It will simply be bizarre for a ‘democracy’ (and I use the time loosely) where the leader of the nation cannot travel for fear of being arrested for previous and pretty horrendous alleged crimes.
Patrick, that again was a pretty generic quote ad essentially the Domino theory. I stil have failed to find a statement other than yours that Indonesian was the primary reason for the US had to enter Vietnam (as opposed to just another nation that would fall to the communists unless we stop them at Vietnam).
Menzies was a great PM but a product of his time with all the inherent and essentially racist ignorance that entails. Like my dear ol mom, who lived through the War with Japan and reds under the bed overwash Mcarthyism, she believe all Asians are yellow bastards coming to get us. The concept that Japanese, Indonesian, Chinese people for instance were distinctly different cultures and for that matter colour was just too fine a point to grasp (I could tell you a funny story about when several years later my half brother brought home a petite Japanese bride, talk about having to face ones prejudices. To her credit, she did well but not before clipping my ears a few times for laughing at her obvious discomfort reconciling ignorance with the reality in front of her. However that is for another time).
However I digress, the point is successive governments used this blanket fear of Asia for domestic agendas. The notion that there were 200 million foaming potentially communist Indonesians chaffing at the bit to invade and rape our women and childre was a red rag dragged out every few months whenever a political climate of fear was required. Unfortunately, the same thing still occurs now. You may be surprised at the number of times you will hear that there is a horde of Indonesian Islamists amassing (with a 100 tanks..hehe) to invade Australia and clothe the Women in bags and cut off their clitorises. Of course, both scenarios are the nonsensical wet dreams of the dark underbelly of ignorant racism that exists in all countries. You would struggle to find any serious analysist that would consider Indonesia is or has a policy of military expansion or even has or will have the capability in the foreseeable future.
That is not to say the Indonesia does not have the potential to be a wrecking ball in the region unless she beins to address the needs of the vast majority of the population but that would be relation to food, education and health.
There is no doubt the big and immediate challenge is the aggressive rise of China and her essentially stated claims “give us what we want or we will take it”. Personally (despite what our resident idiot has to say) as an Australian I would like to see a professional and resourced Indonesian Military as a counter balance to the Chinese. Any doubt in Chinese ambitions and threat to stability just look at the Chinese Sea Claims which are beyond bizarre.
I am honestly curious about your fixation about Indonesia as a threat in the face of a lack of any real substantial support to that position. I have asked before but you ignored it, years ago the fear was Indonesian Communision would drive an expansionist Indonesia. So now is it a fear based on an Islamic expansion?
@Oigal – Seriously dude, did you read the post I made on August 24th? I think it spoke of at least one scenario where China may attempt to draw in Indonesia as any ally against its neighbors. What would Indonesia gain from such an alliance? Continued Chinese investment, favourable trade status with China,military hardware and training, a healthy share of some of the petroleum reserves as found under the sea beds and as a spoil of war, and maybe pursuing Sukarno’s dream of a united Malay state made up of Indonesia, Philippines and Malaysia. I realize it all conjecture on my part but you must admit their is motive and opportunity for the possibility of Indonesia acting belligerent towards its neighbours in the future should it choose that direction.
It was Mao’s vainglorious determination to compete not only with the West but also with the Soviet Union, his rival for the leadership of the communist bloc, that plunged his people into this nightmare.
A few more facts are creeping out, now that some official records are being exposed. I am not sure anyone can know the mind of that evil man. It is certain that he did have plans well beyond China and a large resource rich country, in an important strategic location like Indonesia, would be top of the list.
That article is not for the faint of heart btw.
I’m not an atheist myself but I’ll take any law-abiding atheist over this scumbag governor who has seen his jail sentence twice being extended from 2,5 years to 4 and 6 years and in the meantime has shown nothing but contempt for Indonesia.
Actually I did read your post Patrick and it made little sense. Firstly, it ignores the historical animosity between bumi’s and Chinese. Secondly, one of the major economic issues in Indonesia is the flooding of cheap Chinese consumer goods putting locals out of work so additional trade favours are unlikely (if anything, a trade war is on the horizon. Thirdly, communists is one of the favoured devils of Indonesian make up now. I could mention more but the list is virtually endless on why such a pairing is one of the most least likely futures fr the region.
Oh , sorry the Malay state? I think the Philipines and it’s Christian population might have some issues. Seriously Patrick, your groupings make little cultural or economic sense.
@Oigal – You are probably right. Nothing makes sense anymore. Thank you for your frank criticism of my argument.
Religion is often used as a rallying point for those with political motivations. We see it globally with Islam hijacked for political purposes. It is held up, by some, as a counter to the perceived domination of the West. This would be the most likely method used to lead Indonesia into a threatening stance. Religion is often used in opposition to communism, which is generally synonymous with atheism. It is unlikely that Indonesia would go down that path. Globally communism is on the decline and really only Western academic liberal types think it’s a good idea. (But they don’t have to live with it)
If there is one thing my Indonesian friends cannot get their heads around, it is my lack of a belief in God. It has never been an issue, though I keep quiet about it around older more conservative folk, out of basic respect. Actually, Chinese are not really great atheists as they tend to be rather superstitious and believe in spirits and stuff.
@Oigal – I am still bewildered by your thinking process sometimes and honestly it stunned me the first time I read your last post and you said ” Oh sorry the Malay state, I think the Philippines and it’s Christians might have some issues. Seriously Patrick your groupings make little cultural or ecomomic sense.” Simply stunning thinking on your part old chap as of course why didn’t the peoples of Timor and Papua think of that and what about the Balinese? All the blood shed and forced annexations in history could have easily been avoided if only someone would have said “hey don’t conquer us because we are different culturally and it won’t make good economic sense if you just exploit our labor and natural resources. I am going to get Oslo on the phone as you should definitely be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I hear they practically give them away nowadays as one only needs the potential for peace and not the real proof.
As in all things Patrick anything is possible but personally far more concerning is the thought of the the US and China running around like two old dogs pissing on trees to prove their dominance. Trouble is both US and China have a very bad habit of pissing in other people’s back yards and not their own.
Trouble is both US and China have a very bad habit of pissing in other people’s back yards and not their own.
I agree. Talk about monkeys and typewriters