Actually, I think I said “Why Bother” in relation to having the same dullards’ debate back and forth comparing which of the major religions of the world is less tolerant (spoiler: we end up not agreeing).
Apparently, there are 677 members. Very impressive number considering the poulation of Indonesians is well over 200 million people. Think that comes out to .000003385% of the total population.
While I’m sure that figure totally includes like… all Indonesia’s atheists…I have noticed over the past 10 years that as Indonesians become more wealthy and educated, a certain dissatisfaction with the opiate of the masses has started to take hold and more and more have started to lose interest in organized religion. Church/mosque attendance becomes more of a social function as people become educated enough to think for themselves.
Does the article also mention about how all the 677 members filled out the religion column on their KTPs?
Actually Patrick, surprised there are any Atheists in Indonesia seeing how its mandatory to list one of the state sponsored religions on your ID Card. That said I would not be holding Indonesia up as an example of how religion has made people’s lives better or more moral.
Oh liked your story about the footballer and pleased to see you can see God at work through his christian soul I assume you are taking the same responsibility with the devout christian catholic cruise liner captain featuring so heavily in the news?
@Oigal – I am not sure if the Italien Captain is Catholic or not, or if he is devout or non-practicing? Did he give credit to God for the disaster?
Apparently so Patrick, so I guess if you want claim Gods hand in the good things then you have to take responsibility for the bad as well, seems only fair. Although you would have to question the motivations of an all powerful being that gets its jollies drowning honeymoon couples and starves little children.
I am not sure if the Italien Captain is Catholic or not, or if he is devout or non-practicing? Did he give credit to God for the disaster?
I think if you believe in an interventionist God, then the credit is already implied, right? And if you don’t believe in an interventionist God, then He can’t take credit for Tebow’s recent success…
Unless you believe in a NFL-interventionist-only God who only gets involved in fun stuff like football, but leaves volcanoes to explode, boats to sink, planes to crash into towers, and famines to kill thousands, regardless whether they are believers or non-believers.
Ok Brother M let’s us explore another way that God has left his foot print for the “doubting Thomas’ to see”. That is the many miracles He has given the World and many of these can be seen today. Examples are the Shroud of Turin, the painting of Our Lady of Guadalupe, uncorrupted bodies of saints dead for decades. There are literally dozens upon dozens of these examples so what say u to deny their existence?
How come God gets off with only the good stuff, if he wants recognition for doing the walking dead thing for Saints then surely he has to take responsibility for earthquakes that maim and kill children, Polio which cripples children, cancer…
Seems a particular nasty piece of work
Oigal – This is not heaven but earth that you are referring to when you speak of natural disasters and diseases. God, in the book of Job says that these tragedies happen upon themselves through chance. The disease or natural disaster is not necessarily an indication of good or evil being visited upon the victims. This is our world and for the most part God chooses not to intervene. But it always amazes me how much good happens in the aftermath of natural disasters and the caring of sick.
How come we are not talking anywhere on this site about Lady Gaga being gagged? Really, this is an extremely important and current news story and I cannot believe there is not one discussion taking place here. Good to see the Indonesian Council of Churches supporting Lady Gaga’s right to freedom of expression even if they may disapprove of her message.
There’s lies the rub, Patrick. You want us to worship an arbitrary and cruel creature who decides on a whim when to intervene or not. Good, bad no difference.
Indeed there is often much good that comes following disasters, it could equally be said this is human spirit rising in spite of a cruel and vicious God rather than because of Her.
I am with you on the GaGa thing tho, I thought a Monty to be posted, not with you on the Church support as they have wasted no effort in demonising her elsewhere.
Of course, we are assuming that there is a God which is a bit of nonsense coz who made her. A gods god?
Interesting Oigal that you would have the audacity to determine that a being who made all things was arbitrary, cruel and did things on a whim. Just what scares you about God? Is it the realization that if God exists than you are not the master of your own universe. I think the thought of God being in control frightens the hell (intended) out of you because at any given moment of His choosing things and circumsttances in your life could be different than you planned? In short it means you are at God’s mercy but don’t worry He always has a plan for us designed to draw us closer to Him.
Laugh, sorry Patrick, God’s wrath or otherwise scares me not at all (ok no more than I worry about alien invasion with death rays and probing, which logically is more likely). Curiously, it is the god bothers who live in fear that no they are not immortal and once you die you are fertilizer at best. It is that fear that forces them to cling to any number of irrational myths and beliefs including some very nasty and vicious dieties.
Oh if an all Powerful so called merciful being gets it jollies from making babies and children die in pain and suffering then arbitrary is the very nicest spin you could put on it. Sorry Patrick, it you want to claim good things on behalf of your chosen myth by default you take ownership of the bad..
Patrick, it is actually very easy to know the mind of an atheist. It is the mind you were born with and is the default state of humanity.
Even now, you are an atheist towards most of the gods and deities conceived throughout history. Your deeply held beliefs are learned, from others, not inspired by a higher power. You could just as easily been raised a Hindu or Taoist. In your case you were taught to be a Christian, but remain an atheist in your view of many other faiths.
@ Stevo and Oigal – According to both the Old and New Testament man’s inate nature is know that there is a God and therefore there is no excuse for denying the existence of the one God. In fact the bible is clear to define atheists as “fools”!
Hmm that would be same old testament that tells me to stone my neighbours who work on the sabbath? Hehe…please please tell me we are going to bring the old testament . That will be sooooo much fun.
Then again maybe I was born Thailand, so the bible as we know is only a regional thing so doesn’t apply. Why in fact, the people here tell me it is a corrupted version of the truth with is why God sent the the big M to set us all straight. As we know M was the last of the messengers…oops..oh wait..there is that Indian guy….
Oh hang on, why should we believe you don’t you have Mormon about to be Prez? Lol
Patrick, I think it is more a case of “wanting” rather than “knowing” (There is a God)
Not so long ago it was the only way to explain the world around us. Belief in a higher power also helps provide comfort to some of mans darkest fears. That need may be inate, but it does not prove the existance of God. People invent a variety of higher powers to appeal to. This includes the numerous “spiritual” followers of, so called, new age belief systems.
You have failed to address the point; Which God? (There are many)
Its an important point, as you can not all be correct. Jews, Christians, Muslims can be grouped collectively (though reading the news you would question that) but how about all the other religions and followings? Are they simply “wrong”?
@Stevo – I already answered this very question several times here on IM. Basically, it is an impossibility to have more than one God. Why? As Aristotle explained and Thomas Aquinas demonstrated in his proofs of the existence of God, there can be only one unmovable force in the Universe as unimaginable chaos would be created if there were two or more unmovable forces. As they concluded and Einstein and other prominent scientists have noted the Universe is orderly.
it is an impossibility to have more than one God
Ok, but which God is the real one, amongst the many on offer ?
Some religions have multiple deities/gods. Are those folk simply wrong?
Given the amount of choice you have, what made you choose Christianity and how do you know its the right choice?
It all seems a bit arbitrary to me and far from the work of any supreme being/beings.
You will get yourself into all sorts of trouble quoting science to back up your faith based beliefs Patrick. I wont respond, its too easy…
@ Stevo – what do you think irate the correct answers? And Stevo what possible trouble could I get into here on IM? After all , your hardly a Marisa Duma when it comes to debating me. Where has she been hiding anyway? It seems she has hidden herself from view since her last debate here on this very thread. I think her last posts were in late October 2008. My my where has the time gone? : )
Einstein and other prominent scientists have noted the Universe is orderly.
Careful Patrick, I know it is the want of many of the God Botherers to misquote Einstein as one of theirs, when in fact he categorically stated that the existence of a personal, interventionist deity was logically not true.
However seeing how you brought him up.
7 December 1952 Einstein stated, “The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.” And to Eric Gutkind he wrote, “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text.
However, based on your previous mention of the Old Testament I was just wondering if you could clarify ..hmmm say Exodus 22:20
“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”
Does that include Muslims, coz it may cause some hassles with the neighbors here and I have to fell a bit sorry for our partner company in China coz they have some work to do.
Can we do some more on the Old Testament because it has some really cool stuff on whores, burnings, sleeping with creatures, barren women (why always the woman barren and never even men firing blanks).
I know its pointless debating with a believer but after all it is a fun thread..
Did Marisa Duma not require you to answer a few simple questions Patrick?
I want to know how you can be sure you have the right God? Its a simple question with no hidden agenda.
Is your reluctance to answer due to a crisis of faith? (maybe the enlightment has finally reached you)
Again Oigal you ask me to be careful? About what? You can’t have it both ways with Einstein can you? He stated that the Universe was too complicated and ran so well that their must be a superior intelligence behind it all. This more than suggests that Einstein was aware of God even if he could not bring himself to admit that this could be the same God of his ancestors. This understanding of intelligent design late in Einstein’s life makes him a believer of sort and no longer an atheist.
Time, space, dimension. An atheist can’t think anything without those three things. The wisest man would say, I dont know, a smelly atheist always yells, there is no god.
I would like to recommend this fantastic book:
Yes Riki but did you notice atheists do it on discreet threads such as this and don’t need
Loud speakers or bells to reassure our insecure little souls.
Oh Patrick? Do you really really want to do the Einstein thing (I honestly hope you do). Oh and can we continue on the old testament ..please
Still no answer Patrick….
Ok lets move on. Where is the evidence to support your belief in a higher (christian) power?
As the late great Christopher Hitchens said: “‘That which can be asserted without
evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”
@Stevo “let’s move on”? The topic was ignored due to it having little revelence to the subject matter at hand which is atheism. Perhaps you should start another thread and maybe I will answer your questions there?
@Oigal – please fire away when ready even if you are shooting blanks….. lol!!!!
So a question about the existence of God has little relevance on an Atheist thread !!!
Thats getting out there, even for a theist.