They got what they have because of something, something outside their own (yet limited) “power”.
A good point diego. But do you not think that this could be acheived in other ways ?
Putting those spoiled brats into Catholic institutions is a possible solution. Teaching them a little love and discipline.
Laridion says ” already have a bible. For the same reason I’m also in the possession of Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Mao’s Red Book and the Turner Diaries”
Good for Lairedion and now dust them off and actually read them like I have done with the exception of the “Turner Diaries”.
Stevo says “Trust me Pat, people bonking each other is not the biggest issue we face. I personally think its crazy to remove an elected official for the non-crime of consensual sex.”
This is exactly the problem with atheist and that is they have gray areas of not so right and not so wrong. They say things, such as, if everyone is doing it then its ok or its not so bad. They say they dont need God and a moral compass but anyone with a brain can easily see from the statements above they travel down a very slippery slope and soon enough there will be no right or wrong. What Bill did with Monica was and is wrong and the USA, a defender of womens rights in the workplace has laws against that behavior. What the clergy did to abuse children is wrong and the Church has clear teachings against these abuses. What the Bishops did to cover up the abuses was wrong and there are no gray areas about it. The Church needs immediate change.
Trust in Stevo? No thank you as I will put all my trust in God!
No thank you as I will put my full trust in the living God.
This is exactly the problem with atheist and that is they have gray areas of not so right and not so wrong
This of course is known as the real world to the more rational of us. In an act of charity, lets acknowledge the “rush of blood” that poor Patrick must have had when drawing some nonsensical link between the abuse of children and consensual sex (even outside of wedlock) of adults.
Of course, the arrogance of the statement is breathtaking. Are you really saying that all people who don’t believe in your particular belief system lack a moral centre. Is there anything more pathetic than a person who believes he can be an a’hoe his whole life and beg forgiveness on his death bed and everything is all right then?
You actually paint yourself into a corner of your own making time and again Patrick.
What Bill did with Monica was and is wrong and the USA, a defender of womens rights in the workplace has laws against that behaviour
Not real sure that there is Laws against that behaviour unless there was a non consensual aspect to it and as far as I am aware there was not. If you are going to start on the men in positions of power seducing women (or the other way around) then that is a slippery slope indeed as seeking successful mate is a biological need. Seriously, how many people deliberately marry “down”?
However, that is beside the point, what is amusing is bringing women’s rights and the bible into it. How many female Bishops are there again? So which are you supporting the USA’S position as a defender of woman’s rights (including discrimination in the workplace) or the RC illegal (but yet tolerated) work place discrimination? Hmmmm..
However, one assumes perhaps you are referring to such triumphs in suffrage as:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” or perhaps this one..
Men are superior to women since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But even though women are inferior to men, they shouldn’t be discouraged because they shall “be saved in childbearing.
You see Patrick right from the start you are tied in knots, either we take your view that literally God has written a group a laws and punishments that define good and evil for all time or we accept the more logical view that the bible (amongst others) is a quaint but violent set of stories set amongst some morals of the time (both good and bad).
The problem with first premise is firstly is pretty sloppy of God to be issuing contradictory regulations, we have Muslims, Christians, Jews and various other sects all claiming the literal word of God. Not to mention the fact that you must then take the view is it literal or subject to the various social mores of the time. If literal, then we are back to stonings, rape and pillage, etc etc you know the usual good stuff, if not literal then we are back to some non elected wacker making his own choice on how people should live..
Oh by the way, my personal favourite..How to deal with them unfaithful women who perform whoredom with men with penises like horses…
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
But this will teach em, those were the days..
Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
However to keep with ol Bill and Monica. Which do I hold the greater fear for humanity, a President a curious choice of cigar humidifier or a Fundamentalist Christian with a finger on the largest nuclear arsenal in world, who fervently believes in the rapture, judgment day and the fact, that time here on earth is just a passing phase for those chosen.
If American Politics and the rise of the religious looney right does not scare you, it should.
Oigal says – “This of course is known as the real world to the more rational of us”
Ha ha ha! Don’t worry Oigal no one ever accused you of being rational with your looney arguments and ridiculous assertions. Your well versed on leftist tactics to twist words and statements so as to arrive at a completely different meaning then they were intended, but hey, whatever necessarry to make your meaningless points! If you cannot fathom what Bill Clinton did was wrong then your morals are lacking or non-existent. We are not animals and we can control ourselves in the work place as God gave us a brain so we are in control of biological urges and not vice versa. Perhaps you cannot control yourself? But perhaps you should since the only things about you that is comparable to a jack-ass is your thinking and ego . LOL!!
Tsk tsk Patrick, do try and be civil.
Its sad and telling you cannot fathom there is a difference between Bill Clinton and sad, pathetic boy diddlers. Seriously, I would have thought even you would realize the folly of trying to link woman’s rights with the RCC and trying to suggest that BC is in the same league as the boy diddlers is just sad.
I think your lecture on animals might be better delivered by the criminal CEO to his perverted henchmen. A good start would be to tell them to stop covering up and hindering police investigations. Speaking of morals he might also start by ensuring one of the richest religious organizations in the world stop using secular bankruptcy laws to avoid compensation to those it’s lives it has ruined.
Ok.. I do admit if it was not for the seriousness of the crimes conducted, your statement was funny. Really you are lecturing on behavior in the workplace!
Oh and speaking of Ego and something to bring out the best in Patrick and the dearly departed Rossy..(Do check out “Red’s” costume)
We are not animals and we can control ourselves in the work place as God gave us a brain so we are in control of biological urges and not vice versa
Sorry Pat, but we are animals. Its just a simple and self evident biological fact. We may have a high level of awareness, but that does not change what we are.
So what if we “control” our biological urges? Sex is not a sin between consenting adults. Its a wonderful thing to be enjoyed.
Your kiddy fiddling religious leaders have misled you friend.
Patrick has yet to demonstrate why the RC Church morals are superior. I understand this reluctance as we all know this is impossible, especially given the amount of crimes exposed. It’s better to divert the discussion to futile topics like Bill and Monica.
Oigal and his twin Lairidion said “Face it Patrick the CEO of any other organisation would be in jail for much less.” and “what CEO of any other organization would still be sitting in the chair in similar circumstances.”
I answered his question that he asked twice of me to answer and that’s all, thank you
@Lairidion said “Patrick has yet to demonstrate why the RC Church morals are superior”.
What part of the WWII discussion that we already had did you not understand?
@Stevo said “So what if we “control” our biological urges?
best answer “A man who governs his passions is master of his world. We must either command them or be enslaved by them. It is better to be a hammer than an anvil.” – St. Dominic
Saving Jews was not done by Catholics exclusively, Patrick. It was the effort of a group of people from various backgrounds (religious and non-religious) who shared a feeling for humanity not poisoned by ages of blatant institutionalized antisemitism of which Christianity for a large part has been responsible.
So your answer doesn’t demonstrate a thing. Let me put it another way. Demonstrate to us why your imaginary friend is necessary for morality?
@Lairedion – I beg to differ as the brave actions of the Church during the War demonstrated to the world its true character and strong moral fabric under the most trying of times.
Why my “imaginary friend” is necessary for morality? I guess you have taken us full circle or have you forgotten we have discussed this at length in the past on this thread? God is the “unmoveable-mover”. Everything else in the Universe is in a constant state of change. Since God never changes His morality never changes. Unlike human beings whose morality, when God is removed, can radically change with the times.
“what CEO of any other organization would still be sitting in the chair in similar circumstances.”
Sorry Patrick, but most reasonable and compassionate people would have trouble getting over that repeated howler.
Interestingly, you no longer are trying to pretend that the man himself is not morally and legally responsible the behaviour of his subordinates within his ‘company” however you still try and deflect the conversation with abject nonsense.
My first question remains, are you SERIOUS!!!?How can any person on this earth could even think there is some degree of equivalency between BC playing hide the cigar and the systematic, wide spread, decades (if not centuries) long abuse of children by sanctimonious but filthy creatures portraying themselves as arbitrators of human morality is beyond me. Not like we are talking the odd isolated incidence here are we?
I can understand you trying to defend the shaky edifice that in effect but sadly defines you and so many more of the mentally insecure. However, it remains bizarre to defend the man that has allowed the cover-ups, active protection of the creatures, hindered police investigations, allowed his sub branches to declare bankruptcy to avoid their moral obligations and ultimately through inaction allow abuse to continue (feel free to advise if you think there are in errors in fact here Patrick and I will provide you with virtually limitless links).
Even your own Faith doesn’t let you present the sad defence you are trying. Just last year an Australian Bishop was “defrocked” at the orders of the man for refusing to follow the more homophobic, woman hating doctrines of the church. To suddenly then say he is not responsible for the acts and culture of his organization is plainly a nonsense. The RC has and does rule with an iron fist, to therefore try and claim that “oh oops sorry, not our responsibility that’s some other mob and nothing we can do about it” is plainly a nonsense.
How many large companies (and CEO’s)have been successfully prosecuted for allowing a culture of fear, intimidation and sexual harassment to exist in their workplaces, the question is why is not the RC (and other religions for that matter) subject to the same scrutiny and MORAL values.
To put it simply Patrick..the consensual sex of two people in or out wedlock does not equal decades of wide spread child abuse by an organization that has and does systematically lied, cheated and covered up the issue and continues to do so to this day. Its freakishly sad you could even think along those lines.
Unlike human beings whose morality, when God is removed, can radically change with the times.
So where do you think god will be if man is removed Pat ? It’s hard to maintain an imaginery presence when there is no one about to imagine you into existence.
Sure morality changes with times, as well it should. This is why we now frown upon things such as slavery and torture, (though these things are sanctioned in your bible). I am pleased we do not have the same morality that was widely held in past times. We are much better off for that.
Since God never changes His morality never changes. Unlike human beings whose morality, when God is removed, can radically change with the times.
Changes in morality isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Slavery is a good example. God, whose morality never changes according to you, endorses slavery. Most sane humans now will agree slavery is morally wrong.
So you, with god as the source of morality, still endorse slavery and all the other “good” stuff we can read in the bible?
I am confused. Its times like this I like to refer to the good book its self. This is the message revealed by Pats god:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
This is why I love the bible. There is no confusion there at all. We mere mortals can debate, endlessly, over rights or wrongs of slavery, but the bible is clear. Its ok with god. (because he loves us)
I was so overcome with religious ecstasy, that I forgot my favourite bible verse.
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Yes sinner, you read it correctly !!!. GOD COMMANDS the rape victim to marry her attacker and further orders that they can never divorce.
Another interesting point is that god sees rape as a property crime and even prescribes a tariff to put things right (though nothing for the girl).
This is your moral compass Pat and you think some guy fooling around with the office girl is a sign of moral decline. Get a grip man.
@Stevo, Lairedion and Oigal – The world and times had allot to do with the bible verses quoted. God created the world we live in, but we humans made the world the way it is, as we were given the wonderful gift of “free will”. God has nutured us at times and has helped us tremendously during our journey. Its fanatstic Stevo that you are against slavery as so am I but we didn’t live many centuries ago when slavery was a necessary part of the economy in the ancient world. People who were not fortunate enough to be born into a certain class couldn’t go down to apply for jobs at the local McDonalds and make minimum wage. The world was not full of choices, like it is today, to find work or get an education at the local community college. People had to eat and have a roof over their heads so they were often subjected to years or in some cases a lifetime of slavery. We may be appalled by it and we may hate it but people had to survive and that was one way they did it. What I remember from history classes was that the Jews often treated their slaves like members of the family and the guidelines found in the bible insured good behavior from both slave and master.
Rape is an appalling crime against a woman and we are all well versed in the psychological damage it is capable of doing as well. In today’s world there is counselling available and fairly good supports systems to help a woman victimized by this type of crime transition back to a normal life. In the ancient world a rape victim would have become an outcast in her society as no man would have wanted a non-virginal woman and soiled in this way. This would have made the poor woman a permanent victim but the bible offered a remedy where the woman could be restored to repectibility, and a normal life, by making the perpertrator of the crime marry his victim. It seems harsh and even very cruel to us living in the 21st Century but it was actually kind by ancient standards.
Patrick you get yourself more and more twisted in knots, first it’s the bible and Gods morality never changing always the same, always good. Now its a morality defined by the times..i.e Slavery was a favour to the unwashed masses..was there a recall I missed, a reprint perhaps? I assume you are talking about slavery in the deep South I do recall those people claiming biblical and economic rights. How about the millions of people here in sunny Indonesia they seem to meet our economic criteria for Slavery, not real sure they are going to be real happy about it tho.
You have a sick and bizarre notion of returns a woman to respectability. At least try and make this a little interesting and be a little honest. You and I both know that it had little to do with the woman’s honor but the fact the female gender was regarded as property, a repugnance supported by the church (and organization that still to this day cannot accept equal status). The fact the property was soiled was the issue not the woman’s honor, bit like the ‘you break it, you buy it signs in the two dollar shop’ ..sick huh?
Tell me just how was God nurturing those millions of slaves, seems he had gone missing? Oh and spare us that gross excuse of the slaver..oh just one of the family…please….
So which is it Patrick a unchangeable guide of morality for all time or a mish mash of fables and myths from long ago based on the times, some good, some pure evil. You can’t ride the fence for ever you will neuter yourself.
According to your view god’s morality never changes, therefore if god endorses slavery and rape this endorsement is everlasting and applicable to all times.
If you discourage slavery and find rape appalling then you’re in disagreement with god’s morality. Therefore if you discourage slavery and find rape appalling then your judgement is based on a non-religious moral compass independent from (a) god(s).
I do find it so bizarrely interesting that someone like you still exist in this day n age. Essentially your moral code says ‘ a man having an office affair is the same as systematic, consistant and on going molestation of children and if the economic circumstances are it’s ok to gave have slaves’
Must be a right hoot down their on dem christian cotton plantations, come Palm Sunday.
By the way your excuse for slavery reminds me of Michelle Bachmann who recently said:
“Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA’s first African-American President,”
As a aside, for a omi being who cannot die and lives forever, builds mountains, planets, universes even. You think she would choose a better medium than river reeds, parchment and dodgy semi literate layabouts to record everything we need to know. Perhaps an IPad 2 at least then he could send application updates to save people like Patrick turning themselves inside out. I mean really what’s a few centuries to an omi being..
Patrick, you have finally acknowledged that much of our contemporary morality is formed by people in response to changing social conditions and not by the bible. Clearly you now agree that morals can exist without recourse to the supernatural.
I congratulate you on taking the first step towards being an atheist, but struggle to reconcile your newly found enlightenment with some of your other views. Keep up the good work brother, there is hope for you yet.
@ Stevo – I don’t think I would go that far as the basis of all sound morality is from God. However, I do agree that man does try to bring forth his version of morality to fit the circumstances, that he or she find themselves, as a way of justifying behavior. An example of this would be homosexuality. In today’s world, homosexuality, as a lifestyle, has become much more acceptable to a greater number of people than it was say 50 years ago. Did God’s morality change? No of course it didn’t as homosexuality is still an offense against God and therefore an immoral and extremely selfish way of living. So please don’t congratulate me about becoming an atheist as that is not an option for me. If anything this thread has strengthened my belief in God.
@Oigal – still twisting things to fit your bizarre explanation of things? Mmmmm…….?
@Lairedion – Jesus said we are all equally invited to worship God. “”Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.” This was very radical concept in its time as there are no divisions of people in the Kingdom of heaven and in His Church on earth. As Christianity carried this concept forward and men became more aware that we are all brothers and sisters it started to erode institutions such as slavery.
Now I have opened up plenty of argument for you to declare otherwise so do your homework and perhaps eventually you, Stevo and Oigal will become God fearing as well!
Patrick, you really need to start reading the bible, this is becoming embarrassing:
Jesus did not developed a radical concept:
Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”
Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
Jesus only came to fulfill the law or the prophets, with a sword. Not radical at all but more a conservative.
Also Jesus was selfish and intolerant. Those not following him or his equally selfish dad will suffer eternally in hell. Too many verses from the gospels to list here.
Jesus was a racist.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.”
Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Jesus favors the sheep of Israel over other people, calls the Canaanite woman a dog and is only willing to help her daughter once the poor woman submits like a dog to his/her master.
This latest story shows Canaanites are always at the receiving end, only because Ham saw his daddy Noah lying naked and drunk in his tent. The result? Ham’s son Canaan (not Ham himself) is cursed with a black skin and will be forever a servant.
Consequently the descendants of Canaan were the victim of an ethnic cleansing and genocide executed by the bloodthirsty Joshua. God condoned this and actually participated in the killings:
Joshua 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.
This story is also the source of justifying the racism towards and enslavement of African-Americans. Many nutters believed African-Americans were descendants of the Canaanites and slave holders from the Deep South used this to counter the growing abolitionist movement.
You see it’s so easy debunking the myth Jesus was a good man with a radical concept or your earlier assertion god is needed to be moral.
I don’t expect you to address this stuff from the good book on its content. You never have in this thread or on this site. Bill Clinton shoving up cigars in vaginas is much more interesting….