@Oigal you said”I encourage you as well read some history, in particular some of the earlier writings of Hitlers Pope ( a bit harsh but not totally undeserved”
Ha ha ha! Please you must be joking as that book is considered total fiction by credible historians. You should read all the accolades given to Pope Pius XII by various Jewish leaders from around the World (and the New York Times) for what the Roman Catholic Church did to save Jews during the war. Let’s stop the fiction Oigal and present the facts!
Ok, Patrick..What exactly did they do. Let’s have some of these so called facts, we are talking about the organization here.
Oh ‘L’ you don’t really expect Patrick to answer that do you? He has gone to great pains to avoid explaining how one of the richest organizations in the world can condone various branches declaring bankruptcy to avoid paying court ordered compensation to literally thousands of victims of systematic abuse. CEO’s of any other organizations would be facing lengthy jail terms and revile. Not here in this organization the previous CEO is being fast tracked as a Saint and the current continues the practice.
Hilter’s Pope, not sure about your serious historians thing Patrick perhaps you could point out some errors in fact then, should be easy.
No I don’t Oigal. You will probably even get more statements on how good the Vatican Mafia is while it’s for every sane person to see how sick they really are.
Got nothing to add to the debate, but you know now and again I like to share a bit of music with y’all.
First came across this guy when he was in a punk band a while back. Heading rapidly for the mainstream as a sort of “new folk” star these days, but still bloody good. Been listening to his latest album all day, and though this track might provide a suitable backing to the thread….
No much of a debate Timdog, just some fun and amusement. I know its mean but I do enjoy watching the fundies standing in the corner stamping their feet screaming “does not”. Speaking of the creation fruities (I know…but the conversation was getting boring)
On a more serious note, the dumbing down and hi-jacking of American Politics by nut case evangelists continues with Rick Perry, the Governor of Texas thinking about a run for President. His major claim to fame is that he was lucky enough to be Governor of a rich state and is a believer in “intelligent design”. Intelligent design as we all know, is creationism lite, it’s the creationist theory you have when science has made your original theory too absurd for any 3rd grader to buy.
You may not like Obama but when your choices are Perry, Bachmann and Rommey things are scary in the USA.
Although to be fair, Perry did put his money where his mouth was and declared three days of official prayer to end a Texas drought…and no it didn’t work apparently God was busy preparing a tsunami for not believers and Muslims elsewhere.
Not a bad piece of music Timdog, what is the album name?
Album’s called England Keep My Bones – fine piece of non-toxic national pride…
Timdoggie says “Got nothing to add to the debate…”
Dont worrry Timdog as your buddy Oigal doesnt either as he has proved himself to be rather pathetically weak in his knowledge of WWII history. It seems his only sources on the subject tend to be found in the fiction section of the local library. I am still trying to decide if Oigal is more of a nuisance than a bore?
The suspended governor who wanted hatred towards atheism part of Indonesian education has finally been sentenced to jail.
How is that possible L…A man with religion as his moral centre ..tsk tsk …
Ah Patrick.. That’s funny, someone with the ‘good’ book in one hand and waving the creationist flag in the other complaining someone else is reading fiction. Just reading about the latest cover ups in Australia and Ireland, brutal and depressing non fiction that.
Thanks Timdog, downloaded it…thanks for the tip
That’s the beauty of the self-righteous religious types. Bragging about moral compasses and other crap but at the end of the day they are as bad as anybody else.
In the Netherlands another scandal related to the RC Church has been exposed:
@Lairidion, who says,”…but at the end of the day they are as bad as anybody else.”
Not true Lairedion, as after reading your rather childish and too often idiotic comments over the years, it can be said, that you take bad to a whole different level. You are perched alone at the top. Is there such a thing as a bad intellectual? mmmmmm…? LOL!!!
Face it Patrick the CEO of any other organisation would be in jail for much less. Just look at hammering Murdock gets for his organization and it is not in the same league of evil. It just goes on and on, cover up after cover up. Sooner or later you are going to have to admit by the sheer weightof evidence that religion or not s not the decider of good r bad in a person.
To even suggest that a comment here is in the same class as the diddlers and abusers is as you say idiotic.
That is a rather interesting observation. Personally I won’t call someone a bad person, based on the shallow and shaky foundations of comments on a blog, site or online forum but if that’s your style please go ahead. I’m not interested in trying to make you believe otherwise.
In spirit of the numerous crimes, committed, endorsed and being covered up by the RC Church, now being exposed almost on a daily basis; If you are ever unfortunate enough (and I do hope you never will) to be the victim of abuses, similar to those endured by all those poor children in Catholic institutions, even to the extent of being killed, don’t forget that Jesus is watching.
@Oigal and Lairedion – We have already touched upon the pedophile crisis affecting the Catholic Church, more than a few times, and I believe that I have conceded that the Church has handled this wrongly. It seems when you two begin loosing the argument in one area (ie., the Church’s role during WWII) then you take cover and hide by going to the one argument that I have already agreed was indefensible. However, to argue as if predator pedophiles only exists within the confines of the Catholic Church is clearly wrong and lends no credible argument to support your atheistic beliefs, Afterall, statistically speaking there are horrible pedophiles that dont believe in God! In fact it may be argued that all pedophiles may be athesitic as clearly they do not fear God. Because to fear God is to believe in God.
@Oigal – Your not necessarily a “bad” person but I was speaking merely of your thought process at times. God bless you!
Actually I thought you were referring to L as being the bad person but hey…
Patrick, well firstly I doubt very much I am losing the argument about the churches role in WW2 as the evidence is there for all to see but lets move on..
My point is being RC, Muslim or anything else does not make you a good or bad person as opposed to the nonsensical position that essentially you must be a variation of the above to have some sort of moral centre. Once again the evidence against that premise is blindingly obvious except to the blind.
I believe that I have conceded that the Church has handled this wrongly
And herein lies the “spin” the church “has” , how about still does? The inference that this is all past tense is patently fraudulent. Is it not true that various dioceses have and are declaring bankruptcies to avoid paying compensation payments to those abused and yet by curious legal shenanigans continue to hold their land titles and continue business as normal? Is it not true that the Church continues to withhold evidence from the authorities (most recently in Ireland)?
No one is saying that RC has any more sinister creatures than anywhere else (although, perhaps the curious rituals do perhaps tend to draw the extreme kind of person from both ends of the spectrum). What is being said is the the organization displays a complete and utter inability to face the issues and deal with them in an effective way. Which makes them sanctimonious jokes and the last people the world should listen to.
You see Patrick, I accept that many a dark past exists and what is past is past but what is obnoxious is the refusal even now to seriously address the issue. I ask you again, what CEO of any other organization would still be sitting in the chair in similar circumstances.
Don’t worry about God Blessing Me, we have come to our own arrangement
@Oigal – All good discussion points and I will do my best to succinctly address them:
WWII – Actually the overwhelming testimony of eye witnesses supports the Catholic Church as often being the voice of reason against Nazis in Europe. Even the NY Times wrote this. As far as efforts the Church is credited with saving approximately 850,000 Jewish lives during the war. Is., Every Catholic Church in Rome was hiding Jews from the Nazis. The summer residence of the Pope was used to hide as many as 3000 Jews. Perhaps the greatest testimony for what the Church did for the Jewish people was made by the Chief Rabbi of Rome when he converted to Catholics and later wrote a book about it.
*ll Catholic Dioceses are legally run as separate institutions so each must determine the best course of action concerning their fiscal responsibilities. Many dioceses in the USA were already greatly burdened with debt as they daily seek to provide badly needed services to the communities they serve. Dioceses were already closing churches and schools in urban areas because they no longer had the means to support them when the pedophile scandal hit them. I think you would be hard pressed to find an American Bishop who would not be
sympathetic to the plight of the sexual victims of the scandal. Most have set aside millions in compensation for the victims but in many cases the settlements have quickly overwhelmed the already over- burdened resources of the dioceses. Beyond this I will not defend the bishops who have brought upon this crisis with misguided policies and procedures to deal with pedophiles in the past.
As far as another CEO who did not have to resign, how about Bill Clinton?
Lol..Bill Clinton… I assume you a referring to Monica and Bill? Here’s concept that seems to escaped many in the Church…they were consenting Adults. Weird very weird you would even consider there is a moral equivalence.
Your excuses for the evil of the diocese who have declared bankruptcy to avoid their obligations to the abused is worthy of the sleaziest corporate lawyer. You and I both known the RC as an organization is a very obscenely rich organization which uses the law to dodge it’s moral obligation.
You make it sound like the abuser scandal that hit them was just some unavoidable bad luck, instead of systematic culture of abuse, cover ups and filth that has been inflicted by the church on innocents for generations. Sadly it still goes on with little sign that the church really grasps the concept of what it is responsible for.
As for WW2, do I really have to list all of those directly involved in the direct support of the regime? Shall we start listing the official position of the Jews over the ages ?
As far as another CEO who did not have to resign, how about Bill Clinton?
Is that an attempt to compare consensual sex between two adults, with the systemic homosexual rape of children?
Time for a bible reading:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
I guess molesting kids pales in comparison to all that. This is the source of your moral code Patrick…
I think you really need to think this through my friend.
Let us pray……
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
I suppose in fairness, I should add that it no sane person thinks for moment that all of the big C believers are abusers nor evil. However, your original position Patrick that the Church as an organization is one of the great insitutions of good throughout history is at best debatable in the face of the evidence.
I also find it curious that Islam is tainted as the religion of violence based on a murderous and criminal acts of a small but sadly regenerating pods of disturbed pieces of humanity yet an alternative myth based organization is not judged by the same logic despite continuing reoccurrence of systematic acts of depravity.
Actually I thought you were referring to L as being the bad person but hey…
Patrick once said in this very thread that you write suspiciously like me.
This is also an interesting read. To keep the discussion somewhat connected to WWII. Shows how insensitive and sick these guys are.
Church abuse: ‘Wir haben es nicht gewusst’
Two comments I want to highlight:
A few of my Catholic friends have been so brainwashed that even they are hesitant to speak out against the church. This also makes things very difficult for honorable priests who are truly committed to their faith.
“How do you say in Dutch. “I’m lying through my teeth”?
“Wir haben es nicht gewusst” (in German) means exactly that in Holland. The quote comes from the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials, from those who organized the holocaust. So cardinal Simonis really said; “We know exactly about the crimes, since we committed them ourselves, but we deny everything.
Kudo’s for he Irish PM who, despite being a Catholic himself, dare to speak out against the RC Church:
Statement by the Taoiseach on the Dáil Motion on the report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Diocese of Cloyne, in Dáil Éireann,
Because for the first time in Ireland, a report into child sexual-abuse exposes an attempt by the Holy See, to frustrate an Inquiry in a sovereign, democratic republic…as little as three years ago, not three decades ago.
And in doing so, the Cloyne Report excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism….the narcissism …….that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day.
Now you have done it ‘L’ , the paranoia will set in….
Oigal says “they were consenting Adults.”
As usual it escapes the Oigal, Stevo, Lairedion types of what posssibly could be wrong here??? They make bold statements that they dont need God to provide them a moral compass and then just cannot fathom, what the last great hero of the liberal left in the USA, did to make people of moral character upset? While it true there was was likely consent doesn’t it strike you three stooges that the sexual relationship was inappropiate since this was an obvious ethics violation? Afterall, the affair was between the CEO and a lowly (then) 22 year old internist and they were having sex, not in the privacy of their bedrooms or hotel, but during working hours while Bill was at his desk. Bill, besides being the President of the USA, was a married man during the affair. This would be considered abuse of his office and even sexual intimidation of an employee. Believe me any other CEO would have likely been fired immediately by the board of directors.
Obviously the 3 stooges need a good compass so please go to any good book store and ask to purchase the “Bible”. GBU
I already have a bible. For the same reason I’m also in the possession of Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Mao’s Red Book and the Turner Diaries. You know the kind of stuff you really don’t want to put into practice in real life.
By the way, isn’t it fascinating to realize Jesus is always watching doing nothing anytime an innocent child is sexually abused in an institution run by your cult? Try to project that image into your mind. An innocent child forced to… well, you know what happens over there, we all know.
Sorry for being such a bad person by putting it this way I think it’s appropriate since you are more concerned with the RC Church’s financial position as a result of settlements or worse obsessed with my childish and idiotic comments or cigars being shoved in vaginas….
I find it truly bizarre but perhaps telling just how far the church is from truly grasping the coninueing evil at it’s core. It’s scary that someone could even consider the decades (sorry centuries more likely) of systematic and let’s be frank here sanctioned cover ups of the abuse of children with the poor choice of a couple of consenting adults. In light of the evidence it’s repugant the church would even consider lecturing others about moral behavior.
Reallly Patrick even you must see the irony in you or anyone else speaking in Defence of the church even uttering the words sexual intimidation. If you are just a supporter of the church perhaps you would be better off explaining why it continues to cover up and protect the abusers, you never did answer how an organization as rich as the RC church can morally continue to avoid payments to those children who were abused.
I do feel for you Patrick, the burning desire to defend the institution you have been taught all your life that represents all that is good, yet this same institution seems incapable of dealing with those with dark hearts hiding within.
Obviously the 3 stooges need a good compass so please go to any good book store and ask to purchase the “Bible”.
Is that the same bible I quoted earlier Pat ? Do you share the good books view on rape, slavery etc of women? A simple yes or no will do.
Men in positions of power have been getting it on with female workers since time began. Its hardly compareable to child abuse. With all the wrong in the world, it fascinates me that religious types spend so much of their time focusing on sexual morality. Muslim, Christian, they all seem to do it. Equally interesting is the disproportionate incidence of sexually deviant behaviour from these same people. (I am sure there is something going on there…)
Trust me Pat, people bonking each other is not the biggest issue we face. I personally think its crazy to remove an elected official for the non-crime of consensual sex. Even crazier when the basis for it is the confused rambling of a fractured book that advocates rape and slavery.
I think people that hasn’t reached independence (economical, especially) should not be atheist. I’m talking specifically about teenagers. I wanna puke whenever I hear a teenager claim him/herself as atheist, claiming that he/she believes in his/her own effort / power / whatever. Obnoxious. Haven’t they looked at the mirror? I’m talking specifically about teenagers from well-to-do family or at least having a normal life. What I mean by normal here: there’s someone (parents, family, relatives, or even some foster parents) who take care of their financial need. Meaning they don’t have to struggle so hard like those street kids. Those kids, should look at the mirror, and thanks GOD (or in general term: the cosmic) for the blessing they have received. They got what they have because of something, something outside their own (yet limited) “power”. They are still a fcking dependent teenager. They still have nothing to show that substantiate their claim: “I’m here because of my own effort”. Rubbish. Be thankful, be humble…, and apparently being atheist mean being a arrogant, and I despise obnoxious superfluous teenagers.