You and I both know we can go on like this for years arguing opposing points of view into the next millennium should we live so long. You and your type want to take all the glory for yourselves when you do almost anything that’s beneficial for yourselves and (gasp) others. This is true in science, medicine, politics, the arts or business. Your type writes books about how great life can be if you follow these easy instructions,, invest your time & energy into worthwhile earthly passions, you only live once so follow your dreams to live life to the fullest. Pop psychology easy fixes but without or barely a mention of God. The problem is you cannot take anything of this earth with you when you pass but for your type that’s OK because whoever dies with the most toys and or accolades wins in life. However, the grim reality is that at some point in the future no one will be here to remember your name or any of your accomplishments.
There is another way to live your life and that is to live it humbly and with a true sense of humility, to sacrifice your time for others’, to give glory to God in all our worthwhile endeavors, to love others as you love yourself, to particularly love your enemies and to pray for them. Through prayer, sacrifice and good works God will grant us mercy and favor in a temporary world that we have created for ourselves. And lastly to continue to have faith and hope for an everlasting life with God in Heaven.
Indeed Patrick, they are tough questions.
So that’s why I find the subject of one’s mortality such a focus to do the right thing. We are only here once so lets make the most of it and do the right thing not because someone/thing is holding the lollypop of eternal life but because it is just the right thing to do.
Oh it’s a bit disingenuous to come and make bold statements about religion on thread about Atheist – Beliefs and then complain about people taking an opposing view point. Don’t misunderstand debate is what the thread is for but really just a bit pretentious and precious don’t you think? I could understand you taking offence if I had wandered onto the “Micks are us” website and started challenging cherished beliefs however fairs fair.
By the way speaking of pop psychology
Through prayer, sacrifice and good works God will grant us mercy and favor in a temporary world that we have created for ourselves.
is a classic, with the reality being “sh*t happens both good and bad and belief or not has little to do with it. A better one perhaps is “I am just plain lucky.. seems the harder I work the luckier I get”
Oh and lastly, I was never debating a different point of view just asking you to clarify or justify some of your original bold assertions, which you never really did of course. It is one thing to claim something as an article of faith, a whole other to claim it as indisputable fact.
@Oigal – could you be any less vague? What exactly am I supposed to prove?
Well hows this one then from the words of one of the smartest (if slightly cooky) men since and probably including Einstein.
“I don’t have to know an answer, I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn’t frighten me.”
Richard Phillips Feynman
@Oigal – Is this the same Richard Feynman who said ?”To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty of nature…If you want to learn about nature, it is necessary to learn the language that she speaks in” Richard Feynman, American Physist
I would say that if he believed everything in nature was mathematically formulated then would that not suggest Intelligent Design of the Universe? Afterall, one could not possibly think that everything in the Universe could have randomly been mathematically linked could they? Thanks you!as this was very considerate of you to demonstrate how an otherwise extremely intelligent man could offer such contradictory view points of the Universe.
Laugh, Patrick save yourself some heartache and don’t go there. You are applying the beer ad logic again. I did like the time intelligent design was that a deliberate introduction of the creationism lite package?
You are about to get yourself all tied up in the finite God vs infinite God loop. If God is finite then he is not all powerful, all seeing, all merciful which means he/she is not the God of Scripture. Or he/she is infinite all seeing etc etc and in everything aka nature and physics again not the God of Scripture.
In the meantime Patrick, I would content we are Atheists..
“I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Just wanted to mention that “OIGAL’s last comment was number 666 for this thread. How fitting is that? LOL
@Oigal – could you be any less vague? What exactly am I supposed to prove?
Not so much prove Pat, just wondering at your statement (forgive the paraphrasing)
“The Catholic Church has done more good than any other organization in the history of man”
speaking of contradictory, how does that jell with
The amount paid out in compensation for abuse since 1950 is now more than $2 billion.
Now I accept that you may be a committed Christian and most **** (insert any belief/non belief you want here) are very good guys and at times done some good things but a blanket force for good? Seriously, would any other organization be allowed to exist after such issues. The CEO would certainly would not be nominated for Sainthood. Let’s be frank the Church really has been dragged kicking and screaming into dealing with these issues and it would be fair to say not really all that interested in reform.
Just wanted to mention that “OIGAL’s last comment was number 666 for this thread. How fitting is that? LOL
And not so much as a one handed clap for the effort that went into that…
Gotta be honest with ya Patrick you would think being the anti-christ would come with better holidays and incentives.
@Oigal – you have questioned my statement about the Catholic Church doing more good for the world than any other organization. Yes, it is true the Church has been embroiled in one scandal or another over it’s 20 century plus existence and as you noted it managed to survive them all when any other organization would have been destroyed and forced to close its doors long ago. Some of these scandals have initiated by some of it’s own clergy as you mentioned the pedophile problems now being encountered in a good many of its dioceses and in several countries. As you correctly said the leadership of the Church badly mishandled this crisis until they were virtually forced to deal with it. Other scandals, such as the accusations that the Church did little or nothing to stop the Nazis from persecuting the Jews are factually inaccurate and distorted the true efforts of the Church that often acted heroically and as a beacon of light in avery dark WWII Europe. Below is a quote credited to Albert Einstein.
“Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.” – Albert Einstein
what about the Church’s complicity in slavery, colonisation and outright genocide of America, Africa and Asia for 100s of years? Catholic Pope divided the world into 2 half, so that competition did not came in the way of Spain and Portugal when plundering it in the name of the Gospel, didn’t he?
I can assure you, there is no place outside of Europe where the majority of natives by their own initiatives take Catholicism as a religion, without it being shoved to them by a colonial master. Please enlighten me if any specific country came to your mind..
I think Albert should have stuck to physics.
The Church has been, and remains, a major hurdle to the advancement of science.
The Catholic Church, in Croatia, had its own holocaust that made the Nazis look temperate by comparison. Bless them !
Oh & Patrick, its good to see you referencing a scientist. Lets stay with that theme and see where it takes us………………..
@Stevo – Go down whatever damn path pleases you… :). I was in Croatia shortly after hostilities ceased and it appeared to me that all sides suffered greatly.
Stevo, come on you that would never happen. Selective use of (mis) information, avoidance and a reliance on blind faith is an absolute for the true believers.
Case in point, Patrick refers to Einstein tho, I seem to recall that Patrick selectively quoted him as a reformed believer (a common tactic) when 30 seconds research quickly revealed that to be somewhat faulty.
Seeing how you brought up the Nazi’s and the Church Patrick, perhaps you could help correct some of these historical “inaccuracies” then
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany” and added with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.”
Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.
The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism,
In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing
In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to “bear adversity with serene patience.”
And my personal favourite..
In 1941, being asked by French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain if the Vatican would object to anti-Jewish laws, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews
Now some may be generous and say the church was being pragmatic, others would just plain evil. Now that does not mean there were not many many fine Catholics and Bishops even, who did all they could at the expense of their own safety. Unfortunately invariably these cries for help were rejected by the Vatican ( bear adversity with serene patience). It’s a shame the Vatican did not have the moral fibre and courage of some of its followers.
On what date was Hilter excommunicated ?
I was in Croatia shortly after hostilities ceased and it appeared to me that all sides suffered greatly.
That’s just grotesque, did you miss the bit on mass murder of Muslim communities?
I have one for Patrick…
Little Johnny was in Religious class and the teacher was explaining all about creationism and the origins of man, when little Johnny suddenly stood up and shouted “But my Dad said we are descended from Monkeys” to which the teacher replied..
“I am not talking about your bloody mob Johnny sit the “F” down”
Patrick, Yes all sides did suffer terribly. The divisions were largely based on religion.
However I was not referring to the recent troubles. Do a little reading buddy.
I recall one Croat chap summing it up beautifully. He said they are a white catholic nation and that is just the way we like it. Less trouble.
A Muslim guy, I used to meet for drinks, had a different view. He regarded himself as 100% Croatian and told me his family were part of the resistance against the Nazis, fighting for Croatia, his country. (Probably not really that much of popular idea, given the Croatian leanings at that time). But because of his religion, his family were persecuted regardless.
Aaawww Just had a look at the link, funny how much the religion has in common. The moment where ever blind faith is allowed to trump science then progress stops and peoples daily lives become ever more mired in poverty and ignorance.
Me personally always liked the “Waiters on the Dance” novel has an alternative to human evolution on earth (well its better than the rib bone and clay theory). In that book Adam and Eve were two interstellar space ships filled with refugees. Ok it’s toss and has nothing on Scientology which an absolute hoot but hey if we can have flying horses, boats big enough for every creature on earth and pillars of salt then lets go for the real goodies.
church’s complicity in slavery, colonisation and outright genocide of America, Africa and Asia for 100s of years?
Nobody, to be fair to Patrick you really have to tell the whole story if you are going to talk about slavery, the west was pretty only a new market (think walmat in China) for the thriving and centuries old Arab dominated slave trade. The west (and the churches silence) were pretty much (not all) just another logistic and consumer market for a trade mostly out of Africa and controlled by various Muslim pretty tyrants. Oh and should also add that it continues today under the same players. History is bugger when you reveal it all ain’t it.
Seriously, you don’t really want to discuss Islam and the literal view of slavery as written do you? Again to be fair, the church of old had to do some pretty difficult mental handstands to get the bible to fit the slave trade the same cannot be said for the Koran, its pretty specific (try Qur’an (33:50) and about 10,000 from there on). Although it is advised don’t beat them too hard just enough to make them do what they told (like wives I guess)
As for your question ..top of my head, local region, East Timor, Philippines, Vietnam to a lessor degree..Of course, you could say introduced but you could say that about Islam and Indonesia and more recently, the more obnoxious money for faith that is occurring my own little province. Little mosque down the road, distributes a tidy tithe of Arab stained money to any make that covers his women folk head to toe.
All three desert semitic religions were first adopted by slaves and after gaining enough adherents the old slaves became slave masters and continued slavery… in the Islamic world until this very day with a new low recently with the beheading of an Indonesian female slave in Saudi Arabia.
Oigal, there are big differences between Islamic take on slavery and christianity’s.
In Islam, slavery was there before Islam came. It was the fact of life. What Islam did was regulating it, putting rules where there was no rules what so ever. Making clear what are the rights of slaves, yes, there are right of slaves guaranteed by Islam, for example, they might try to work to pay for their freedom. Before Islam, people can just kill their slave, and nobody will lift a finger.
Now, on the other hand, what do Christian says about slaves: They legitimize it!, giving moral background for people to make a profitable bussiness out of it. They say slaves are slaves because they are racially, genetically sub(even not!) human!, created by God specifically to be slave.This theory is no where to be found in Islam. Muslims do not see any race, black or not, as sub human and there fore condemned to be slave just because of their gene.
further more, Islam from the beginnin encourages freeing of slaves. Some of the first companion of the Prophet was former slaves. There are many things in Sharia where some bad deed can be cleaned by freing slaves.. Also there are many situation which if a slave found him/herself in, the owner must free him/her (like if she gave born to a child of the owner) so naturally the number of slaves, and the possibility of becoming slaves in a muslim society diminished over time, and now there is none. The law/rules about slavery is still there in the Sharia, but in reality, it will be impossible to have slave in these days.
The reason Slavery ended in by britain was not because of Christianity, we can even say it was despite Christianity, given some religious justification they gave to the earlier slaver.
And of course, the “ending of slavery” by the west carry no weight what so ever given they did not stop enslaving people by the nation (rather than individually). What is the difference between colonization (or even genocide, in America, Australia and NZ) and slavery? the end result is the same, or even worse. The Maoris or Aborigines have not get their freedom till this day, and probably never will.
Well Nobody, that was some convoluted nonsense even for you. Firstly, let’s not embarrass ourselves by making it necessary to quote any number of suras where the man not only actively encouraged the taking of slaves but the active sexual and other use of them. As for racism, shall we discuss the treatment of Muslim vs non Muslim. I am not talking about perceptions or exceptions here but what is actually written in the Quran and hadiths. As for the more traditional racism let’s talk the actions of your Arab brothers in the Sudan against their black Africian ‘brothers’ or the way they treat Indonesians in SA.
Impossible to have a slave, google slavery Africa, middle east and get back to me.
Aborgines don’t have their freedom? Where do you get this from? Every aboriginal has the right to vote, to drive a car, to hold a passport etc etc same as any other Australian. Australia has and had aboriginal MPs, governors, military commanders. Which puts them streets ahead of say women and non Muslims in a number of Middle Eastern Countries.
How much you willing to bet there are no slaves in any Muslim society….do let me know..I could do with the cash
Really easy one for you as our chief supporter of Sharia Law (whatever that is, despite numerous request you have yet to provide a definItive link).
Is slavery still permissible under Sharia Law, simple yes or no will do. Trick question we know the answer and the links.
@ Nobody, you said – “I can assure you, there is no place outside of Europe where the majority of natives by their own initiatives take Catholicism as a religion…”
Really? Read on and learn!
In 1900 the Catholic Church had 459 million Catholics worldwide and with 392 million in Europe and North America and 67 million scattered to other parts of the world. By the year 2000 there were 1.1 billion Catholics and with only 380 million in Europe and North America. This means the remaining 700 million or so Catholics are spread throughout the rest of the world and mainly in the Southern Hemishere. Africa in 1900 had only 1.9 million Catholics and today it is easily the fastest growth are of the Catholic Church having experience a whopping growth spurt of 6708% in 100 years. Today, half of all adult baptisms world wide take place in Africa.
@ Oigal – Case in point, Patrick refers to Einstein tho, I seem to recall that Patrick selectively quoted him as a reformed believer (a common tactic) when 30 seconds research quickly revealed that to be somewhat faulty.
The problem with your mind boggling (for you) 30 seconds of research is that most of the resources used to refute anything Einstein said in support of religion, or a higher power, are hear say and therefore at best are rather unreliable. The quote I gave recently and credited to Einstein was made during an interview to Time Magazine, which was and still is a very credible source of information. Better luck next time old gal
“Africa in 1900 had only 1.9 million Catholics and today it is easily the fastest growth are of the Catholic Church having experience a whopping growth spurt of 6708% in 100 years. Today, half of all adult baptisms world wide take place in Africa.”
I guess that has helped Africa become the success it is today Patrick ?……………..
The only part of Africa that has ever crawled above subsistance level, is the Muslim dominated north.
It does serve to show however how religious indoctrination is always at the vanguard of colonization and oppression. They seen to think that inside every black heathen there is a white christian just waiting to get out. There is not.
Nobody, where did you get the idea that the New Zealand Maori have no freedom?
Even the laziest of searches will quickly reveal that NZ has a system of apartheid with far greater rights and privileges extended to those with some Maori ancestry.
They also have two race based political parties whose rhetoric would be labeled hate speech, were it to come from a European. This is not only tolerated but encouraged.
If you think Maori can be pushed around, you clearly have never met any!
The first settlers quickly found they make better friends than enemies and treated them accordingly.