Atheist Threat

Oct 10th, 2008, in IM Posts, by

View the original article here.


1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2144 »

  1. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 8:56 am

    @ Patrick

    I am commenting in IM and it is within my boundary (sooner or later Ostraya will be included).

    Misterrr Patrick, reread what you post and my response to it.

    You tell us for our country to be stabilised, we have to control, isolated and remove; We ‘controlled, isolated and removed’ them the Javanese way and we were very successful at it. Didn’t the Islamists cried foul and you, the armchair/commode human right activist pressured our government to give up Acheh? Now you wet your pant when one of your kind was killed by the jihadis.

  2. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am

    @ Brett

    If the Ostarayans had not chanted for their blood, and pushed and shoved us to executed them, the Bali Bombers should have been dead by now. Anyone familiar with Indonesia would agree with me. We simply do not like to be told.

  3. avatar Patrick says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 9:06 am

    And do hurry up Andy as Brett does not like to be kept waiting. Must be another pompous Englishman! LOL

  4. avatar Andy says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    AAB, we haven’t at all chanted for their blood in fact many Aussies oppose the death penalty. We haven’t ourselves executed anyone since 1966. But in saying that, not only do you not like others telling you what to do but you oppose polite suggestion from people who only want what’s best for you and your country. That may explain why it is going quickly down the toilet. Bit like our parents telling us as adolescents not to jump off a hill on our motorcycles. Also I didn’t lie about the class walkout. Now come out and say it, timdog too…You are calling me a liar. If I met both of you face to face you would be hearing from my lawyer pretty soon. Far easier to hide behind a keyboard isn’t it.

    Brett, I have written on a couple of other similar sites about the Bali Bombers. I don’t normally support capital punishment but it’s Indonesia’s law not ours and therefore it is up to them to apply the law. If they don’t do so they are failing in their civic duty. In my country they would be looking at a lengthy stay in maximum security. But alas they committed a crime on their own soil. Now AAB cmon are you really holding out because we hurt your country’s precious pride? If true, grow up now!

    Patrick, you are a voice of reason. But then you come from a free country like I do and a friendly one at that. I thank the USA for saving us during WW2. Indonesia should be doing the same. AAB would be a sight speaking Japanese and eating sushi. I would pay to see it. America helped us while Britain surrendered to the japs. I have always found, regradless of our historic ties and membership of the Commonwealth that we have far more in common with the Americans and they are generally friendlier and more hospitable than the Brits. But the funny thing is the Brits are still the largest group of immigrants to our shores. They love us and hate us at the same time. Guess our dole checks are more generous.

  5. avatar Cukurungan says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 10:24 am

    Also I didn’t lie about the class walkout. Now come out and say it, timdog too…You are calling me a liar. If I met both of you face to face you would be hearing from my lawyer pretty soon. Far easier to hide behind a keyboard isn’t it.

    Yes …I can grabs your story, let me assume that you did not lie but in Indonesia, students make a mass walk out is very uncommon unless under very extreme condition such as your student detected their teacher is freak or your student captured you while you were molesting their friend

  6. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    @ Misterrrrr Andy

    I thank the USA for saving us during WW2. Indonesia should be doing the same. AAB would be a sight speaking Japanese and eating sushi. I would pay to see it.

    I thought we are clear on this one in another post. Javanese welcomed the Japs. Infact we trained with the Jap to fight off the Dutch. The group that oppose Jap occupation is the Indon Chinese because they were making millions by helping subdue the Javanese. I will come back to the rest of your craps later.

    ps. I prefer eating sushi, than oily fish burger.

  7. avatar Brett says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    @AAB: I truly hope that it is as simple as that. Your explanation is pretty much consistent with my experience of what works: invite discussion, suggest solutions, but NEVER tell.

    By the way: had to look up “Ostarayan” and was amused that my Mac dictionary gave me this message: “No entries found. Did you mean: ‘Australian’?”

    @Andy: Um, very convenient, but isn’t it a tad hypocritical for me to say I don’t agree with capital punishment UNLESS it is in another country? Saying “its Indonesia’s law not ours” is a dangerous position to take. How about the way the Government put the shackles on Ahmadiyah? Public floggings in Aceh? Hanging homosexuals in Iran?

    It’s okay to be angry and to want these people to be punished. Just be honest about it. If we can’t be honest about our emotions, then what’s the point?

    @Patrick: Pompous Englishman? Nah, I’m much worse: an opinionated, arrogant, stuck-up Kiwi with an over-inflated pride! LOL

  8. avatar Andy says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Brett, yes I hate the Bali Bombers as all good people should but can’t see the point in opposing their sentence. After all as AAB explained it is not my country to tell them what to do. But shouldn’t they follow the law in their land? I will, however, to continue to have an opinion as I see it. The Ahmadiyah ruling was hypocritical by the Indonesian government as they wouldn’t do the same for other more radical groups such as FPI and Jemaah Islamiyah. The Vice President won’t even acknowledge they exist preferring the radical muslim line that they were invented by us (the west). Iran was taken over by a radical Islamic revolution. Most Iranians i’ve met are nothing like their leaders so can say the sooner they have a change of leadership the better.

    AAB, keep dribbling away with your racist, hateful nonsense, the fact is you live in our country. I no longer live in yours. So don’t tell me I can’t tell you how to behave. You are a disgrace to your people and your religion. The less said about you the better.

  9. avatar Patrick says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    @ ABA – Ya I will agree your government has removed from the surface the visible roaches but the rest have gone underground and snuggled in their nests. My question is when are you going to pretty please exterminate all of them? So sorry I took so long but every time I see your picture I become so frightened that I pee in my pants. LOL

    @ Andy – Thanks for the compliment.

    @ Brett – Great response! Hope you comment more often as we can use a kiwi voice!

  10. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    @ Misterrrrr Andy

    No, I am not living in your ill-gotten country. I have business interests and own holiday shacks here. Tommorrow I will be flying into Melbourne for a wedding reception at Crown. Perth will be my last lap before returning to Jakarta next week.

    The Ahmadiyah ruling was hypocritical by the Indonesian government as they wouldn’t do the same for other more radical groups such as FPI and Jemaah Islamiyah. The Vice President won’t even acknowledge they exist preferring the radical muslim line that they were invented by us (the west).

    The real hypocrites are the like of you. Radical muslims survive because of Western Onanist dogooders who championed for their cause when they were hunted down and tortured. Fyi, JI was long gone. They were the real jihadis, captained by the Arabs and their main aim was to establish a caliphate on our land. They do not have support from the mainstream. But FPI, we need them. FPI is ‘saudara kita’ and not as fundamentalist as the Bules make it out. The Saudis are feeding them at the moment and they have to be seen to be doing things. They know where their loyalty lie and when push come to shove, they will return to the fold of Javanese Kejawen. Ahmadiyah originated from Pakistan so we don’t really care if they exist or not.

    Iran was taken over by a radical Islamic revolution. Most Iranians i’ve met are nothing like their leaders so can say the sooner they have a change of leadership the better.

    Comparing ancient civilisation like the Persian with Mojopahitan is like comparing gold with silver. Javanese respect their womenfolks since time immemorial unlike Persians. (Comparing Persian with Ockers is like comparing silver with roo dungs.)

  11. avatar Rob says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    All…

    Last I heard Indonesia was a secular nation where there was more than one official religion. So, Andy, I kind of miss the damage that Indonesia’s religion is doing to it if you mean Islam. If you mean the religion of money, then the damage of idolizing money as a god seems to be wreaking havoc everywhere and not just in Indonesia.

    An interesting tangential debate here would be on the Armed Forces continually talking up the communist threat and attempting to convey this threat as real.

    On atheism. It would seem that Pancasila requires a belief in something (supposedly a one true god) and this something would probably be broad enough to incorporate animists.

    A majority of atheists or agnostics hardly seems a guarantee for success. Nevertheless, a strong secular state, where the belief in secularism is real, would seem to have a likelihood of success equal to that of a state sans all religion.

  12. avatar timdog says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    Patrick:

    He is not wrong about his witnessing children and adults believing that George Bush is terrorist as I have myself heard that comment more than on a few occassions

    Sorry to tell you, but if you come to “shoulder to shoulder” ally the UK and you will find something that may honestly approach a majority of white, non-Muslim Brits coming out with that very line – and much worse – about America and your president.
    There sure is lots of anti-Americanism in Indonesia, but as a generally pervasive sentiment (as oppossed to a potentially violent motivation of a tiny minority) it’s scarcely more widespread or more extreme than it is in Europe. And to use some middle class kid scribbling that slogan in class as a symbol of the dark, terrifying hostility of Indonesia is only going to provoke hysterical laughter from most people…

    Andy – about the class “walkout”, am I calling you a liar? Well, it’s not nice to call anyone a liar, but then anyone can say anything on here without any possibility of verification.
    The idea of a class of middle class language school kids – “pribumi” or otherwise – walking out of a lesson, least of all one about frickin’ santa claus, is so ludicrously beyond the realms of likelihood – unless the teacher was behaving absolutely appallingly – that I have to call you out on it. If something like that actually did once happen to you, you are clearly not giving the full story of what went on and what actually prompted this “walkout”.

    Sure, lot’s of people say “Indonesia is all wonderful”; I don’t agree with much of what they say either, and I have lots and lots to say that is critical of Indonesia, right here, on this site. Here’s a few bits:
    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1697/syncretism-example/

    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2566/popular-myths/

    Here’s one that has something specific to do with the religion thing:
    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1660/agama-adat-and-conversion-in-nusa-tenggara/

    And if you trawl my posts on other threads you find me frequently making reference to my critical position on Indonesia’s approach to its own history (I think I alluded to it most recently on the “vitriol and hate speech” thread”) and to various other negative issues, most of which would probably go straight over your head.
    The big difference between these things and your squawking is that they are subtle, nuanced, and based on some actual breadth of knowledge, some actual understanding of some key issues, and an absence of paranoia, bitterness and hatred. And that makes them, oh, about a million times more valuable than your rants…

    Rob – all fine good sense as usual. Thanks.

  13. avatar Lairedion says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    Andy said:

    Behind the ‘hello mister’ and happy faces lies a darker side.

    When I was a little kid growing up in Bandung I said “Hello Mister” to every polar bear I encountered but deep inside I held nothing but contempt for them and I was always ready to strike first with a machete. :-?

    Andy and Patrick, you have failed again to understand the dynamics of Indonesia.

    Looking at Indonesian history the country has a remarkable record of hospitality to foreigners and a tolerance to outsiders influences. It has been influenced by Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity and the Indians, the Arabs, the Chinese, the Portuguese and the Dutch have all been allowed to start a life and trading enterprises there. Indonesians have always been flexible to adapt the useful parts of foreign cultures and religions and implement those in their cultures and create something of their own, the essence of kejawen more or less.

    This attitude has also allowed Indonesians to deal with extremists and hate groups. Javanese culture is all about harmony and flexibility and the Javanese have had a Buddhist approach towards Islam. Disregard and ignore the extremism and absurdity which will cause suffering but take the middle path. Unfortunately an over-emphasizing on Western democracy and human rights has given room to Abu Bakar Bashir to return to Indonesia to spread the foreign ideology of Wahhabism and we have now our own Taliban province on the northern tip of Sumatera. Predictably polar bears like Patrick and Andy, aware of the monsters the West have created, are now stumbling over each other to urge Indonesia to deal swiftly with Jihadi maniacs like the Bali bombers. Here’s news for you, Soeharto, AH Nasution and Benny Moerdani were very successful dealing with them. It’s a dirty job but they were very happy to do that so Westerners like you could travel in and do business with Indonesia.

    Surely Indonesia does have its dark periods, violence, errors and wrong-doings but this doesn’t make Indonesia unique in any sense. What does make Indonesia or Nusantara for that matter unique that you will have trouble to find a part of the world with an equal history record of tolerance, acceptance and flexibility towards outsiders and foreigners.

    Considering this, AAB’s comments are by no means racist. He’s just holding a mirror in front of your white faces so you can reflect on your own lack of gratitude, understanding of and acknowledgment towards Indonesia and you can see your perpetual moaning, whinging, lecturing and patronizing.

    Despite of all this foreigners are still cordially invited to visit Indonesia. The country is not less safe or more dangerous than any of the Western nations and it’s much safer for bules than Africa, Latin America or the Middle East and terrorist attacks can occur in Bali, Jakarta, New York, London and Madrid. We have the best food in the world, stunning nature, an unmatched diversity, pleasant climate, to conclude we have anything to offer for any visitor. Apparently for some polar bears this is not enough. We are not better or worse than you, we are equal and when you are in our country you will behave as a guest, not as a “meester”. Why is that so difficult?

    Patrick, great to have you back. I wonder how long it will take before you get upset, start wanking and complain with the webmaster again. :-)

  14. avatar timdog says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    DAMMIT Lairedion, can’t you just say something I don’t agree with entirely for once ;-)
    With you all the way on the above…

  15. avatar Lairedion says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    timdog,

    Hihi, I guess our ammo to have a beef has been dried up. Perhaps AAB is right, there might be some Javanese blood running through your veins.

    But seriously, sometimes it’s needed to have a good fight only to find out you do have much in common with your “adversary”. I believe this is the case here and if you agree then this whole blog with all the hilarious comments and absurdities have shown its value. And I’m not ashamed to admit my opinion on certain topics have somewhat changed by reading some of the comments here. :-)

  16. avatar Marisa says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    I was about to comment on this post, but it’s so lengthy, I decided to write a blog post instead.

    Some things I don’t understand though from the comments, was wondering anyone could answer me: Communism and atheism and secularism are three different principles. Why must these three different paradigms be placed in the same context? How? And why must atheism relates to politics? How about in spiritual context?

    Saying religious people cannot be spiritually fulfilled is as discriminating as saying atheists cannot be either.

    OOT, people, please check out Patrick’s poems here. Patrick, if you read this, thank you for your contribution. ‘Darfur Nielsen Ratings’ is simply priceless. Patung, replied your comment, thanks for the heads up.

  17. avatar Peace says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    I am very agree with marisa, I think atheism is just like one of the faiths.

  18. avatar Marisa says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    Peace, there is no such thing as ‘one of the faiths’. Faith is faith, one faith, human faith.
    Politics, on the other hand, well, ..
    The very same people who has been taking religion for granted may likely to take atheism for granted as well. There are atheists, but there are also anti-theists. Different principles involved, different reasoning to each.

    That’s why I asked:

    And why must atheism relates to politics? How about in spiritual context?

  19. avatar Berlian Biru says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    Indonesia is a republic but most certainly it is not a ‘secular’ republic, on the contrary a belief in God is intrinsic to the Indonesian constitution.

    Atheism is not inextricably linked to Communism but Communism is inextricably linked to atheism. My point is that when people throw the accusation that “religion” is somehow responsible for so much war and conflict, wars and conflicts that are actually almost invariably routed in issues of territory or race, it is worth pointing out that militant atheism ain’t all that pretty either.

    Give me the Buddhists to the Khmer Rouge or Red Guard any day, or the Russian Orthodox Church compared to the KGB.

  20. avatar Patrick says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    @ Timdog & Lairedion – Reading comprehension classes are gladly offered to the 2 of you. The reason that I suggest this is it is necessary to first understand the entire message prior to sharpening your knives or machete and carving away. At the risk of upsetting Rob, may I politely suggest that you both go back and reference where I wrote “Mind you, I do very much believe that Indonesia, for the most part, is a very polite and civilized society”. Takes the wind out of your sails doesn’t it gentlemen?

    @ Lairedion – Why does it not surprise me that you were one of those obnoxious street wise guys chasing after bules and shouting “Heyyyyyyyy Meeeeeester! And you admit to being full of hate? I would love to be a fly on the wall if Dr. Sigmund Freud could psycho analyze you. Wow! Talk about “Dear Mommy Issues”. How about referring to whites as polar Bears? Me thinks you been watching too many damn Yankee prison movies. Oh! The sexual tensions you must bottle up and also explains the tattoos! : > )

    @ Marissa – Many thanks and really happy you liked the poetry. However, I must say that dark poem by Cheesy Girl is pure genius as it totally blew me away! Bet it could win an International poetry contest.

  21. avatar Lairedion says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    Patrick, wasn’t it you who was wanking in a comment blaming our webmaster for alleged slandering?

    I would love to be a fly on the wall

    How about referring to whites as polar Bears? Me thinks you been watching too many damn Yankee prison movies.

    Oh! The sexual tensions you must bottle up and also explains the tattoos! : > )

    Now who needs a shrink?

    Andy, don’t forget to call the Crown Hotel in Melbourne tomorrow to see if AAB is staying there.

  22. avatar Patrick says:
    October 12th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    @ Lairidion – Nice job with the comeback as your quite the wit! (YAWN!) As far as slandering the webmaster I think you are way far out there with that accusation. I suggest that you contact Bapak Patung for further clarification. Thanks!

  23. avatar timdog says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    Patrick – I was simply addressing your apparently taking seriously Andy’s “dark and terrifying” story about a student drawing a negative picture and slogan of George W Bush (Terrifying! I shudder at the thought – it must have been akin to coming face to face with Osama bin Laden in the alleyways of Kandahar; I don’t know how you got out of there alive Andy…)

    Lairedion – Yep, agree again. And my views to are always open to evidence-based modification (though there are some absolutes).
    Also, what I think is key is that when I’m pushed (or perhaps when I push myself ;-) ) into a one dimensional corner (one dimensional corner? Whatthef$%*? Is that possible? Course it is; this is the internet…) I’ll say things that while not not what I actually believe, can give a slightly skewed impression without the wider context of the rest of my views… I reckon the same probably goes for you…

    Marisa:

    There are atheists, but there are also anti-theists. Different principles involved, different reasoning to each.

    Brilliant. Which is precisely why I say:

    I also feel strongly that atheists ought to say “I believe that there is no God”, rather than “I don’t beleive in God”. The difference is subtle, but crucial.

  24. avatar Patrick says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 1:08 am

    @ Timdog – Tidak apa-apa!

  25. avatar Marisa says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 1:08 am

    However, I must say that dark poem by Cheesy Girl is pure genius as it totally blew me away! Bet it could win an International poetry contest.

    Not sure how to comment on it, not sure if I have to considering others’ personal matters aren’t exactly my niche, but I do like the pulsing liveliness of her writings. Strange rash, stinky smells, perhaps it’s just a fixation of ..uhm, strange rash and stinky smells?
    Hope someday she’d have the chance of engaging a personal interaction with Hizbut Tahrir militants.

    Don’t provoke my competitive instinct now, Patrick. Of course you know by now that this spunky lioness only roar at the lesser advanced species.

  26. avatar Patrick says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 1:16 am

    Don’t provoke my competitive instinct now, Patrick. Of course you know by now that this spunky lioness only roar at the lesser advanced species.

    @ Marisa – Your being way too kind to me today! Thank you for the reprieve! : > )

  27. avatar peace says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 9:27 am

    the title should change from “Atheist Threat” to “Finally Atheism open our minds”

  28. avatar peace says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 9:37 am

    Peace, there is no such thing as ‘one of the faiths’. Faith is faith, one faith, human faith.
    Politics, on the other hand, well, ..

    yes there is.. there are Buddhist, Catholic, Islam, Hindu, etc and there is atheism as one of human’s faiths / beliefs

    and atheism should not be opposed to, because it has nothing to do with communism or threaten pancasila / etc

    i think atheism is not denying God, they just don’t believe God in religion context, they believe in the Great Power, otherwise there will be no time and space in the universe

  29. avatar Andy says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 10:45 am

    Andy, don’t forget to call the Crown Hotel in Melbourne tomorrow to see if AAB is staying there.

    Nah can’t be bothered. Wouldn’t mind informing Immigration of his impending arrival though as he is not the kind of person we should allow in our country. Honestly, if our government won’t accept Puff Daddy, Mike Tyson and David Irving then why should we let in a man who thoroughly detests us and is an immoral little worm. I would suggest he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere, even outside Java. Perhaps he is a terrorist or aiding and abetting those who seek our destruction. All countries have a right to refuse entry to anyone who is a threat. I mean, let’s not forget, Indonesia deported Sidney Jones and won’t allow journalists into Papua. I guess after killing the Balibo 5, they have to cover their asses. Indonesia wishes to deny entry to those who seek the truth about their human rights abuses. Australia (and other western countries) wish to deny entry to those who threaten our freedom and way of life.

    By telling all here that I hunted down Purba, I think I may have extinguished him from these pages as he hasn’t returned since that day. It is an Indonesian trait to go into hiding and live in denial when somebody (particularly chinese or bule) discovers their blatant dishonesty. Well guys my name is Andy. Is Purba Purba and Aluang Anak Bayang Aluang Anak Bayang ?

  30. avatar janma says:
    October 13th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    According to john cleese there is a gene that makes us believe in religion and fundamentalism….. it’s scientific… don’t fight it…

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2144 »



Your view on “Atheist Threat” :


RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-14
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact