Atheist Threat

Oct 10th, 2008, in IM Posts, by

View the original article here.


1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”

Pages: « 13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2344 »

  1. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 2:05 am

    Nice copy-paste work. I’m impressed.

  2. avatar Odinius says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 2:58 am

    Find that whole “there are no atheists in foxholes” truism a bit hollow. People, faced with tragedy and persecution, are as likely to question whether there is a divine plan as they are to fearfully plead to god for protection.

  3. avatar Andy says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 3:06 am

    That’s true Odinius but overall if we look at our world maps and see which countries are the most religious they are generally the poorer ones and the industrial west along with asian giants like Japan don’t take religion as seriously. Indonesians follow God because most are destitute and the thought of a great afterlife keeps them happy while alive.

  4. avatar Odinius says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 4:04 am

    True, to a degree. But then again, the US is an extremely religious place, and it’s the wealthiest country in the world.

    However, there are big regional disparities within the US in terms of how religious people are. The fundies tend to be Southern or Midwestern, and either rural or still strongly connected to rural communities and social networks. Maybe that’s it for Indonesia as well?

  5. avatar Patrick says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    Really you atheist posting here @ IM are pathetic creatures and poor students of history. When almost all of Europe was thrown into “the dark ages” it was one tiny outpost of Christianity that saved western civilization and rekindled it into these bleak godless countries that now made up Europe at the time. That county Ireland was known as the isle of saints and scholars and it had many Christian centers of learning where books and manuscripts were preserved an copied for future generations to enjoy. This tiny country sent out thousands of missionaries and re-evangelized Europe and opened many centers of learning to educate the people. Let us never forget the many contributions to humanity that Christians, Muslims, and Jews provided over the centuries to art, architecture, science, literature, mathematics, medicine etc.,

  6. avatar Odinius says:
    May 27th, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    Patrick said:

    Really you atheist posting here @ IM are pathetic creatures and poor students of history.

    Who are you talking to? If it’s me, I’m no atheist. In fact, I don’t care for any “black & white,” “yes or no” view of the world. That includes both doctrinaire atheism and dogmatic variants of any and all organized religions or secular ideologies.

    The world is a “grey and maybe” kind of place. Religious people have done both wonderful and horrible things in the name of devotion. So have the non-religious.

  7. avatar Andy says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 3:06 am

    Odinius spot on! The poorer the US gets the more religious it becomes. In Australia where we have a good welfare system and safety net for the poor religion has become less of an issue every year. Now there are at least 20 % who state they have no religion at all and only 7 % who regularly attend church. I think Europe is about the same.
    And Patrick, cmon lighten up..History is an ongoing process and things have changed dramatically since the time you speak of. Have you read the book ‘The God Delusion’
    yet? I would be curious to know if this book is freely available in Indonesia or if it is on the banned list along with any book with references to communism.

  8. avatar Oigal says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 8:06 am

    one tiny outpost of Christianity that saved western civilization …That county Ireland was known as the isle of saints and scholars and it had many Christian centers of learning

    Mmmm Wasn’t i just reading about the Irish idea of Christian Love and kindness in the papers? The ole Catholic Church just lurches from one epoch of depravity to another doesn’t it.

    Quick quiz..Which religious leader was a member of the Hilter Youth in his formative years??

    Let us never forget the many contributions to humanity that Christians, Muslims, and Jews provided over the centuries to art, architecture, science, literature, mathematics, medicine

    Now Patrick, thats a bit naughty..trying to claim credit for all humanity..although if you want to follow that little strawman, then you have to claim credit for all the wars, death, destruction, hate, mutalations brought to us so kindly by Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

    Or are we doing that GOD thing.. she gets credit for the good stuff and the devil takes the wrap for the rest..

  9. avatar Oigal says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 8:12 am

    A wise man once said “when the pious start quoting God it’s time to count your sheep”

  10. avatar Patrick says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    The expression. Ladies & gentlemen. is “less is more” and not “more is useless” as Odinius, Andy and Oigal have gone out of their way to prove by their postings in trying to defend their positions on this topic.

    @Odinius – Glad you have no position

    @ Andy – where do you get your facts? The known correlation regarding the USA is that the less religious the country is becoming the greater the negative impact on social and economic issues.

    @ Oigal – Yes we are doing the God thing as Monotheistic religion identifies a clear enemy to mankind’s salvation and that entity is known as Satan and no doubt someone you’re probably on a first name basis with? : > ) (I just know I opened a can of worms for you to gulp down and then vomit all over these pages but don’t despair as I know a good exorcist who can help you). Anyway your reading comprehension needs work as I didn’t give religion credit for all of mankind’s accomplishments did I?

    A quote for you to enjoy – “when the godless man curses his adversary he really curses himself”. Sirach 21:27

  11. avatar Odinius says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    Patrick said:

    @Odinius – Glad you have no position

    It’s not “having no position,” Patrick, it’s “using history to form opinions.”

    Mother Teresa and Thomas de Torquemada.
    Ibn Khaldun and Mullah Omar.
    Maimonedes and Avi Lieberman.
    Clarence Darrow and Pol Pot.

    See what I did there?

    Now you have a choice: you can think about what these dichotomies might mean, or you can not. If the latter, that’s your loss, and your loss only.

    @ Andy – where do you get your facts? The known correlation regarding the USA is that the less religious the country is becoming the greater the negative impact on social and economic issues.

    This is so far off the mark it’s not even funny. First of all, the US is growing more religious, not less. Second, the economies of the less religious regions are much larger than those of the more religious regions. Compare Massachusetts to Alabama, or Washington to Montana. Third, “negative impact on social issues?” Sure, if you believe that abortions, gay marriages, etc. should be illegal, that there should be capital punishment and unfettered access to guns, and that the state should do as little as possible to help the poor. But if you don’t, then hey…it’s better where religion is more private and less public.

  12. avatar Patrick says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    @ Odinius Here are some atheist dichotomies for you to think about as well.
    This is fun : > )

    Stalin – Olfe Palm
    Marquis de Sade – John Lennon
    Mao – Margaret Sanger
    Pol Pot (or Fidel Castro) – James Joyce
    The Shooters at Columbine – Madelyn O’Hair

    Concerning your view that the number of religious is increasing in the USA may I suggest that yu read the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) and find out how wrong you’re viewpoint is about this topic.

  13. avatar Odinius says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    Patrick: You clearly missed the point. Clarence Darrow and Pol Pot were both atheists. Given that, and the other dichotomies, each from a different religious tradition, what do you think I might have been saying?

  14. avatar Odinius says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    Of course the ARIS doesn’t say that Americans are becoming less religious, it says they are less and less following organized religions. But that number is still tiny…15%. That means 85% still do. At the same time, organized religion is increasingly infecting the public sphere.

    But even if your idea was true, you’re simply off the mark in relating this to economic well-being, and as I pointed out, you can only relate this to social well-being if you ascribe to a religious worldview. If you don’t, then hey! Things look pretty good in agnostic New England…

  15. avatar Stupid Bule says:
    May 28th, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    Dear Oigal,

    Loved your comments on;

    Now Patrick, thats a bit naughty..trying to claim credit for all humanity..although if you want to follow that little strawman, then you have to claim credit for all the wars, death, destruction, hate, mutalations brought to us so kindly by Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

    I’m often miffed at how the religious sanctimonious allow themselves to an extra helping of self-appreciation when magnanimously taking credit for all that is “good” in the world. They seem to believe that they have the copyrights to words such as, enlightenment, righteousness, virtue, and good and evil. When it comes to evil, as you “righteously” pointed out, they palm that off to their dear imaginary friend, Satan…

    Smells like bullshit! As George Carman once said, “When it comes to bullshit, you can’t hold a candlestick to a clergyman”. “God has a special place for those who do one of the “ten” things they are not supposed to do…It’s a special place that ‘he’ created. A special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where ‘he’ will send you to live suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever until the end of time….but ‘he’ loves you…….

    I personally would like to see the human race evolve away from these backward idiotic superstitious doctrines, and give way to a more grounded logical and rational ethos. The problem with this is that ‘they’ have imbedded themselves generationally by way of ‘fear tactics’.
    I think for most people, if they weren’t indoctrinated at an impressionable age, they wouldn’t give religion a second glance. You could imagine yourself at the ripe old age of 18-21. You stumble into a second-hand bookstore; there in the discount bin is a copy of the Bible, selling for $1. You begin to flick through the pages and realise it’s fiction…you don’t like fiction, so you put it back, and move on…

    I want to see the human race move on…

    Yours Sincerely,
    Religiously oppressed
    living in fear
    Damned for eternity

  16. avatar Patrick says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    Stupid Bule says “I want to see the human race move on”…Ya maybe into something like the godless North Koreans? No religion and gee whiz they are poorest nation in the region, mostly impoverished & starving population (except for a lucky few but who cares because there is no god to set morality)aggressively violent posturing toward their neighbors, exporters of nuclear weapon technology, currency counterfeiters, drug runners, and a model nation of atheism. Gee I bet we all cannot wait for that future?

    @ Odinius – For your information when people move away from organized religion it sets the stage for future generations to become more agnostic and atheistic (Already that trend is occurring in the USA with people aged 20 to 30 years of age). See Europe, see Canada, and see the USA. This leads in turn to higher divorce rates, suicide rates, abortion rates, and generally fewer children as family life diminishes (results in a need to import workers from poorer nations so again see Europe, Canada and the USA).

    It’s not my job to give you a complete lesson on why the USA is the most prosperous nation on the planet or to explain why certain regions of the USA historically prosper more than others as those topics are very involved but I will attempt to enlighten you with a very succinct explanation as to why? The USA was first settled by English Protestants seeking religious freedom in the new world. They brought with them a Calvinistic view of the world. In a nut shell that means God has limited amounts of grace to spread around as the earth is populated with too many people for God to be concerned with them all. So in order to be considered having grace from God then one certain sign was that you were prosperous. This is the basis of the Protestant work ethic. This concept of hard work leads to prosperity is the very reason our country has risen to the very top of the economic mountain. New England being more prosperous than say the Deep South is no accident. Poorer weather and rocky soil meant less agriculture and an early move into manufacturing whereby the rural South had remained more agriculturally based even to this day. As a side note that is the very reason the industrial North defeated the agricultural south during the civil war. Industry supports more people with work opportunities (larger denser population centers) leading to better educational opportunities as manufacturing gets more sophisticated and therefore demand s more skilled labor for the work force. In recent decades there has been a trend by manufacturers and other companies to relocate to the “Sun Belt” and perhaps in the years to come places like Alabama will have an economic advantage over places like New England?

    No Odinius I did not miss your point concerning your use of dichotomies. In fact I rather enjoyed it and that is why I came up with one of my own. Hope you can understand what I am trying to convey? If not I will enlighten you about that as well. Let me know? Cheers!

  17. avatar Odinius says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    The dichotomies merely served to show that, regardless of your position on god (does he exist; does he exist in this one particular way, etc.), you can be cool or you can be a d*ck. it’s what you do that matters, not what hat you wear.

    Personally, I have a lot of respect for people whose religious faith leads them to charity and selflessness. I know a Catholic priest who decided to run a parish in one of the worst neighborhoods in Detroit, and has basically dedicated his life to helping that community, with a lot of positive effect. I could never agree with the hard atheist position that sees him as tainted by his faith, since it’s obviously had the opposite effect.

    Unfortunately, my life experiences have also made me well acquainted with the way people can use religious teachings and the structure or organized religion to justify all kinds of dire behavior. This is not unique to religion…works much the same way with ideology. After all, where exactly did Marx say he wanted all ethnic Koreans deported to gulags? But the uncompromising certainty of Marx’s writings instills, in some but not in others, a sense of “whatever advances the cause is justifiable.” In many followers, it inspires a lack of critique and rational exegesis. This is what disturbs me about organized religion.

    As for the US, you got the colonial period a bit wrong: only Massachusetts and Connecticut were founded by English Calvinists. Maryland was settled by Catholics, Virginia by Anglicans and Rhode Island and Pennsylvania by Quakers. New York by Dutch Calvinists and New Jersey and Delaware by Swedish Lutherans. Of all of those, only the Quaker colonies of Rhode Island and Pennsylvania, and Virginia, were founded on the principle of absolute religious freedom. The Puritans were extremely intolerant of religious difference, which led to the establishment of Rhode Island.

    As for the reasons for economic disparities, that’s well and good, but it wasn’t what I was arguing. Instead, I argued that the lingering ties to agriculture and rural communities in the Deep South strengthens religious fervor in a way the industrialized economies of New England do not. Regardless of origins, there is now a social divide between places like New England, where religion is private and just a bit deistic, and the Deep South, where it’s public and fundamentalist. I greatly prefer the libertarian and tolerant social values of New England to the moralistic values of the Deep South, both of which are strongly tied to prevalent views on the place of organized religion in society.

  18. avatar Stupid Bule says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 1:03 am

    @ Patrick

    Stupid Bule says “I want to see the human race move on”…Ya maybe into something like the godless North Koreans? No religion and gee whiz they are poorest nation in the region, mostly impoverished & starving population (except for a lucky few but who cares because there is no god to set morality)aggressively violent posturing toward their neighbors, exporters of nuclear weapon technology, currency counterfeiters, drug runners, and a model nation of atheism. Gee I bet we all cannot wait for that future?

    I think it’s possible to evolve spiritually without a jealous vengeance seeking imaginary being in the sky. Moreover, I believe it’s actually happening, and that brings a smile to my face. Religions have proven themselves to NOT bring people spiritually closer, but to separate them ideologically. With all the previous centuries of squabbles, feuds, wars and senseless extermination of life, it should be clear to any logical thinking person that we need to evolve. Religion I hope, does not, as Patrick purports, “sets morality”. I guess people like Patrick need to believe everything they hear and read, out of an installed sense of fear and eternal retribution.

    Life must be such a walk in the park for you Patrick, never having to think of an original thought outside of religious doctrine, or military media propaganda, or even those nasty lies your History teacher told you. I can see education has been wasted on you from your blind nationalistic prideful comments about the alleged “settlement” of America for “religious freedom”. I guess these “religious freedoms” empowered the newly arrived “morally just” to rape murder and torture and enslave and all but exterminate entire civilisations in order to gain that “limited grace” your God has so “sparingly to spread around”.

    I think it’s time for you and your bretheren to pull your heads out of your proverbial arses (that’s asses to you) and close your History and religious books, step down from your supreme “economic mountain” Pedestal, swallow your misguided nationalistic pride and join the rest of human civilisation.

  19. avatar Odinius says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 5:00 am

    Yeah a bit of a misnomer to say the Puritans came to Massachusetts for religious freedom, as they hounded out the Quakers for daring to observe differently.

    But Quakerism is also a good example of how one can be religious without being a slave to dogma.

    This messy but still informative wiki page lays out the details:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Society_of_Friends

  20. avatar Oigal says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Ya maybe into something like the godless North Koreans? No religion and gee whiz they are poorest nation in the region, mostly impoverished & starving population

    So Patrick let me see if I have this right, your God is who is the builder of everything, all powerful, all merciful is quite happy that little children and babies starve to death, die of rank diseases all because their parents are not position to fall down on their knees and worship from afar?

    mmm… Could be me but I don’t really see much difference between your God and the Dear Leader then, if you are one of my chosen ones then you live high on the hog, but if I suspect you wavering then you and your family can starve to death..after all I am the all powerful one.

  21. avatar janma says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Patrick: The 5 proofs aren’t terribly convincing that God does exist, though they do aptly demonstrate that the existence of God may be reasoned logically.

    You see, i don’t find that at all……. they clearly state * Many things in the universe may either exist or not exist. Such things are called contingent beings.
    * It is impossible for everything in the universe to be contingent, for then there would be a time when nothing existed, and so nothing would exist now, since there would be nothing to bring anything into existence, which is clearly false.
    * Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being or beings.
    * This being is whom we call God.”
    to me this arguement is not logical…..it’s not logical to say that everything is caused by something, EXCEPT for one thing. And it’s not logical to surmise that that original cause is ‘GOD’…. illogical and not provable!

  22. avatar janma says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    but, you know who cares really…… Believe what you want to believe… for me even if you managed to convince me of there being a “GOD”, I don’t know what i’m supposed to do about it….. why does that have to entail, submission, fear, following, religion and all the rest of it….. so there is an original cause…. cool…. so be it…. forget about it.

  23. avatar Patrick says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    @ Odinus my history is correct as Calvinism viewpoint on the work ethic was shared by most of the protestant groups that first occupied the states that you mentioned. In fact though Maryland was founded for Catholics to worship freely, the majority of the settlers among them were Protestants.

    @ Oigal – Please for the last time get your head out of comic books and read Job for God’s own explanation of human tragedies. And just because I explained Calvinism here @ IM doesn’t mean I subscribe to all it entails or that I am even a follower of it at all.

    @Stupid bule – your use of the word “arse” betrays that you are from Great Britain and therefore would it be your ancestors who did all those nasty things in almost every colony your country established? That includes allowing the mass starvation of approximately 1 million Irish during the Great Potato Famine while exporting from the colony a huge wheat crop during that same year. As I like to quote “People living in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”.As far as being enlightened by you or any atheist on this thread it’s never happened. Just when will an atheist here forward a convincing argument that God does not exists? And unfortunately that includes you mighty Janma but I wait patiently…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

    @ Janma what should you do about it? Answer; Rejoice in the good news!

  24. avatar DumadiSatrio says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    I experimented with Bokonism for a while

    Verses 2-4 :
    In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.

    And God said, “Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done.” And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. “What is the purpose of all this?” he asked politely.

    “Everything must have a purpose?” asked God.

    “Certainly,” said man.

    “Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this,” said God.

  25. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    God didn’t do anything to prevent the true servants of the Vatican Mafia in Patrick’s beloved Ireland to destroy many young children’s lives.

    Irish church knew abuse ‘endemic’

    I’m also curious what Hitler Jugend member turned pope Benedict has to say about these wonderful Catholic upbringing methods. (just addressing Oigal’s remarks here).

    Before complaining about “pathetic atheists on IM” Catholics better clean up their own mess in their thoroughly rotten institution. If any club should shut up about morals it’s the RC Church and its loyal members.

    By the way I do not consider myself an atheist. Whether God exist or not I don’t care. Atheists can be evenly annoying fundamentalists as believers can. Like Janma I find the whole question irrelevant.

    I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any. – Lao Tzu

  26. avatar DumadiSatrio says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Whether God exist or not I don’t care.

    Hheh, that makes you an apatheist

  27. avatar Stupid Bule says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    @ Patrick

    @Stupid bule – your use of the word “arse” betrays that you are from Great Britain and therefore would it be your ancestors who did all those nasty things in almost every colony your country established? That includes allowing the mass starvation of approximately 1 million Irish during the Great Potato Famine while exporting from the colony a huge wheat crop during that same year. As I like to quote “People living in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”.As far as being enlightened by you or any atheist on this thread it’s never happened. Just when will an atheist here forward a convincing argument that God does not exists?

    Actually I’m an Australian Aborigine. My parents were part of the ‘Stolen Generation’. Abducted from their families and handed over to Christian missionaries as part of the good and moral Christian belief system. So, I am in total agreement with you about, “those nasty things in almost every colony” my oppressors ever established…

    Yes Patrick I am an Atheist. Perhaps if you were to better inform yourself of the greater world around you, you might find there are many ways one can exist spiritually, and metaphysically. This, as you may or may not be aware can be a fulfilling and harmonious existence. There are no songs to learn, no rituals to perform, and above all, there is NO banking system involved…

    It’s a very large universe Patrick. On planet Earth, at this point in time, religion has its stranglehold on the majority of its inhabitants. The one thing I know about time is; whatever begins, ends.

    As for your statement, “Just when will an atheist here forward a convincing argument that God does not exists”?

    I believe it’s mainly an Atheists view that there isn’t any shred of evidence that can prove the existence of God, so therefore in light of no evidence, God does not exist. Furthermore, atheists shouldn’t have to prove the non-existence of God. It should be up to the magnanimous intolerant majority, who purport the existence of God to at least bring forward (1) singular piece of tangible evidence that would prove God exists. (I won’t hold my breath for that “one”)

    Why is it Patrick that the Religious majority on planet Earth are so terribly afraid and intolerant of the Atheist minority? Atheists, as far as I’m aware, have never flown planes into buildings, blown themselves up in the name of their belief, have never incited violence on the scale that the mighty religious have. It is simply a different belief Patrick, one that will be around for a long time to come.

  28. avatar DumadiSatrio says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Atheists, as far as I’m aware, have never flown planes into buildings, blown themselves up in the name of their belief, have never incited violence on the scale that the mighty religious have.

    Stupid Bule, while I’m sympathetic to your reason, Pol Pot and the like have proved otherwise.

    Granted, they were not using a “dogma” of atheism as a justification, however they killed many to surpress religion, which they found dangerous.

    They did however share something very important in common with the militant religious fundamentalist….The unwavering belief that they are absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees is absolutely wrong and bad

  29. avatar janma says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    @ Janma what should you do about it? Answer; Rejoice in the good news!

    The good news that I don’t have to do anything about it? Consider me rejoiced!

  30. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 30th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    It’s a very rejoicable and liberating thought if one does not have to bother about the existence of God. But I consider myself a free thinker and a free thinker is Satan’s slave.

    null

Pages: « 13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2344 »



Your view on “Atheist Threat” :


RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-14
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact