826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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timdog says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:15 pmOigal – I have no idea how many is “many” nor yet “many more”. I do know that it is enough to create a generall impression: beyond the point where you say “I’ve met a few racists in Australia” to the point where you say “there is a certain identifiable current of racism in Australia”
But as I said, there is a certain current of racism in virtually every country in the world. The thing is, those racisms often have markedly different characteristics from that with which you are familiar in your home nation, thus they are more striking.
The racism in Indonesia tends to be of a “chip on the shoulder” and jealousy type.
The racism in China is of an almost comically superior and arrogant kind.
The racism in the UK these days is typified by absurd paranoia.
The racism in the Indian Subcontinent is viscious and sometimes downright terrifying.And what strikes a visitor from the UK about Australian racism is its casualness; the way that sentiments that would be offered in the UK in faintly conspiratorial and almost apologetic tones (“I know you’re not supposed to say this and everything, and I ain’t racist, but these immigrants…”), or that would only be outed in select company by people fully confident of each others (unpleasant) views, are more confidently, casually bandied about along with good cheer and matey back-slapping in Australia.
It doesn’t neccessarily make Australia any better or any worse – or any more or less racist – than anywhere else; it’s just something non-Australians might notice.Incidentally – purely incidentally – colour-conciousness in places like Indonesia and India is not quite the same thing as racism. I wrote about it somewhere else on here, but I can’t remember where…
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:39 pmtimdog,
Oigal once said “Australia for the white man,” was the sentiment of hard working ordinary people, as though it was ok.
Lock and load that AK-47, boys.
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Andy says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:41 pmtimdog-I have no idea how many is “many” nor yet “many more”.
defend yourself as much as you can but you made the statement only a few days after accusing me of making absurd allegations against ALL Indonesians. (which were totally untrue)
timdog-And what strikes a visitor from the UK about Australian racism is its casualness; the way that sentiments that would be offered in the UK in faintly conspiratorial and almost apologetic tones (”I know you’re not supposed to say this and everything, and I ain’t racist, but these immigrants…”), or that would only be outed in select company by people fully confident of each others (unpleasant) views, are more confidently, casually bandied about along with good cheer and matey back-slapping in Australia.
Wrong-if you spent more than a few minutes in our country you would see what you refer to are maybe a bunch of guys on a footy trip getting pretty smashed rather than the average Joe or Jane in a shopping centre or park..That happens everywhere. The system in Australia is set up to support minorities particularly immigrants. Examples are the language options in any office in pretty well any service these days. And the fact that muslims are pretty well supported everywhere by having praying rooms etc in airports, government offices, schools etc. I can tell you timdog, my wife cannot complain about race relations in Australia after living in Jakarta during 1998 (and her family-my in laws during 1965). She said we are a beacon of racial harmony. Take that from someone who was born elsewhere and is now living in Australia. timdog, you are sounding eerily like AAB and Purba (hope it’s not them in disguise)
Try and be a little more civil and fair minded in future before bashing your keyboard in the biased ignorant fashion that you do. Or maybe it is because of the cricket you don’t like us.
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Lairedion says:
September 24th, 2008 at 5:59 pmtimdog, a couple of posts earlier you said:
In this respect I’d compare you unfavorably to someone like Lairedion. He has plenty of things to say about Islam with which I wholeheartedly disagree; I have been rather rude to him in the past. However, unlike you, when he makes specific Islam-related comments about Indonesia I am, despite sometimes getting rather steamed up, able to see that he has a wider perspective on the country, and an affection for it
Not sure what you’re trying to say here. Andy and I are from totally different backgrounds.
My relationship with Indonesia has nothing to do with affection and the alleged wider perspective is based on ethnicity, ancestry, relatives, family matters, upbringing, culture, surroundings, business interests (real estate, property) and charity projects. In other words, Indonesia is part of me as a person, character and human being and has a lot of influence on how I live my life.
As for my criticism towards Islam, I happily agree that we can disagree on that subject.
Andy said to timdog:
Try and be a little more civil and fair minded in future before bashing your keyboard in the biased ignorant fashion that you do. Or maybe it is because of the cricket you don’t like us.
I really fail to see the purpose of bringing in cricket in this discussion?
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September 24th, 2008 at 6:41 pmLairedion – I was wondering where you were; I’m afraid the thread has wandered in all kinds of wierd and wonderful directions while you’ve been gone…
As for bringing your name into it; perhaps Rob was right in calling it an unfair comparison. I was just trying to point out to Andy how it was perfectly possible for me to acknowledge that someone who has some views I heartily disagree with – views that can on occassion drive me to apoplexy and insults – does actually know what he’s talking about, does have a wider perspective, and does need ultimately to be taken seriously (much as I’d sometimes like to do otherwise
). This was in radical contrast to himself – who I find quite impossible to take seriously.
You were simply the most obvious person here who sprung to mind (dewa being too enigmatic – and where is dewa btw? – and shloka being too much of a pain in the ass). Background and everything else had nothing to do with it.
Anyway, as Rob said, perhaps it wasn’t an ideal comparison, and it was a throwaway line anyway. Don’t read too much into it.@Andy, why don’t you actually read what i wrote in my previous post?
I really fail to see the purpose of bringing in cricket in this discussion?
Couldn’t agree more! I don’t give a flying f*ck about cricket, know nothing about it, and quite frankly feel much the same way about most team games (is that symptomatic of something? could be…)
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September 24th, 2008 at 9:10 pmtimdog,
I was in Bandung for an unscheduled visit. I got the opportunity to buy some land with potential and my presence was required. Normally I visit Indonesia twice a year around New Year and April. These are short 1 week trips, focused on updating and overseeing my projects/property and family visits. I spend my holidays in other parts of the world.
And cricket sucks. Apart for some Commonwealth countries, the world don’t give a damn about this irrelevant game but Andy is concerned timdog’s criticism might be driven by Aussies beating England. What a load of rubbish.
Andy said:
She said we are a beacon of racial harmony.
Common features of this racial harmony are Aborigines serving as tourist attractions and painting a Qantas aircraft in Aboriginal art.
Patung, perhaps these latest comments might be transferred to your new What Is Racism? thread. I appreciate the high number of responses but I’m not obsessed with numbers and I feel all points related to the main subject of this particular thread have been proven and/or counterbalanced.
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Mets says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:10 pm@ oigs … you called…you surprised why I agreed with Achmad… pls explain reason as your points got ‘lost in translation’ …sorry have been saying this phrase all week don’t ask me why!!
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Oigal says:
September 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pmOigal once said “Australia for the white man,” was the sentiment of hard working ordinary people, as though it was ok.
Aw FAIR GO!!
I never said that (or if I did it was part of larger point of some kind), I think anyone who had read my post would know that is not even close to my opinion! ASSMAD I know in place of logic or valid discussion you like to twist, mis-quote and misrepresent people but even if you fundamentally disagree with my outlook on life its beyond the pale present me as an out n out racist and is just a lie.
You and I both know there are some real racists on all sides that appear here but I am not one of them. Happy to debate with you (most of the time anyway) but its come to outright lies like that..again whats the point.
Mets..I was suprised as you were demanding immediate action for an oppressed group of people.. Just remove the aborginal references and insert poor indonesians brutalised by the dutch (or whatever description) into any of ASSMAD’s response and just look..they will fairly be rolling in reports, studies, theories and latte light solutions..of course hard to bank any of those things but as ASSMAD says as long as we understand the causes..
TIMDOG..Second reponse I find very interesting would like to discuss it further one day but the first in all honesty was just a back slap to Australia, which is fine but tends to derail the conversation into ..”YOU ARE WORSE THAN I AM” which is counter productive and worse the result is a forgone conclusion.
Back to ASSMAD.. Calling me racist is bloody low sport and you know it!
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September 25th, 2008 at 12:39 pmHi —
@ Oigal
Didn’t you on a posting about the Bulletin Magazine, say that their masthead reflected the “sentiments of the time”?? (See below).
@Oigal @ All
All if Oigal didn’t say say that - I apologize..
I think Oigsy’s right. We need to ease up on that label.
Ok.. here’s the posting
Reflecting its position and readers, the magazine proudly proclaimed its dedication to a White Australia and up until the 1950’s carried the banner ‘Australia for the White Man’ on every front cover (Note to the morally outraged..go and check your Pri Bumi regulations and suck a fish, the Stump does not belong to the black arm band view of Australian History).
Rather than racism, this was more of a mirror of the feelings of the vast majority of Australians, particularly after World War 2. A direct result in response to the horrors perpetrated throughout Asia by the Japanese was the on going support for the White Australia Policy…(“In accepting your surrender we do not honour you, for you are the scum of the earth” ah but that’s another post closer to ANZAC DAY).
Oigal,
I think it’s relevant for context — I suspect you kept a few cards to yourself — fair enough on the race topic. But I think it’d be educational for people on the other side to hear the views of, say, well, conservative ? Is that fair ?
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Oigal says:
September 25th, 2008 at 1:26 pmAh Yes..I did say that, thanks for looking it up and I still stand by the comment as it stands (although also fair to say there was a fair bit of baiting going on in that thread).
I think in fairness there is considerable difference in the wider comment than saying
Oigal once said “Australia for the white man,” was the sentiment of hard working ordinary people, as though it was ok.
.
Sport, happy for you to paint me as conservative, narrow minded or even ignorant (none which I would agree in total but again bits of all depending on the topic would fit) never the less I do take umbrage at being called characterised so far from where I really am as a person.
If anything I am at the polar end of a racist, I believe there should be no special consideration for any race, or religion except where the laws apply to all equally.
So turn off those bloody loudspeakers!!! ..GOD (so rumour has it but you would never know it) AIN’T DEAF AND HUMANS HAVE MASTERED THE WATCH
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September 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pm@ Oigs…. what I am asking for is recognition under the definition of the Geneva Convention that they are victims of war crime by the dutch…..that is the first step & it is a very big step…once that has been agreed ‘retribution’ will be the challenging part as I agree with many on the thread how would one start this and what is enough, when basic human rights and dignity had been stripped during that period…also the bureacracy that is tied into managing these process….that I also think it is the point Achmad is making when he refers to the case of the aboriginies…
Before we can even start making amends, any perpetrator of war crime/ genocide, must undersand the impact/ damage they have had on their victims, by not doing this in the first place no amount of money, project, schemes etc will be right or enough to compensate those victims
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September 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pmOk, Oigs,
We’ve got your words in print for people to see.
So let them be the judge .
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Oigal says:
September 25th, 2008 at 2:23 pmBefore we can even start making amends, any perpetrator of war crime/ genocide, must undersand the impact/ damage they have had on their victims, by not doing this in the first place no amount of money, project, schemes etc will be right or enough to compensate those victims
Nice thought just like we all go to heaven if we are good and justice will prevail..reality is a compromise!
My point is, the moment you start blaming current generations for things their fore fathers did (or didn’t do) you have vitually ensured that nothing will result as the neo nationalists, hard line conservatives (as opposed to a liberal conservative like myself) will take a very hard line against the very things you propose (Japanese and the comfort women for example) and the reality is those groups will ensure failure. Added to that, is the very human trait that any two groups of people will view a historical fact differently.
Personally I think you have a better chance highlighting the postives in the relationship and seeking assistance based on moving forward rather than looking back as much as having someone to blame might make people feel better it don’t feed the kids.
This doesn’t mean I support looking the other way for the current generation of murderers and thugs, nothing would make me smile more than to see some of the smiling or was that singing generals arrested and face an international court the very next time they leave the blood purchased comforts of their current nation but to expect their children to accept balme for what they did..sorry..won;t work!
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September 25th, 2008 at 2:46 pm@ Oigs …but you fail to pick out the other point that I also clearly made..retribution will be challenging….
The compromise will be broken down by understanding the impact of the damage caused ..by seeking recognition that they were victims of war crime is the first step…..
I never said that I am blaming the current generation I am saying we have to understand the past, learn from it and move on, one step forward is recognisng the crime has been commited ..but one cannot move on without learning or understanding the past, life, just like this debate will just go round and round in circles….
Look up “Restorative Justice Framework” it might make sense what I am trying to say to you ..
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:07 pmmets-Before we can even start making amends, any perpetrator of war crime/ genocide, must undersand the impact/ damage they have had on their victims, by not doing this in the first place no amount of money, project, schemes etc will be right or enough to compensate those victims
true, so the TNI must understand the same thing right? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander…
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Oigal says:
September 25th, 2008 at 4:15 pmMETS..Seriously I do get your points and they are valid but what I am saying in this case as noble and just as they are, people as a group a pri*cks and it won’t happen.
Let me put it another way..Do you really think the dutch will meekly accept “they are guilty of war crimes” (correctly or not)? Particularly from Indonesia who has a bagful of its own dirty washing, some far more recent which will give every conserative dutchman a stack of ammo to muddy the issue.
Not saying you are wrong..just a dreamer (thats not an insult, I think you expect the world to be fairer and more just place than it is)
have nice day as you said this is circular now.
Fair Enough Assmad… Could be wrong tho but didn’t you first use the phrase
the magazine proudly proclaimed its dedication to a White Australia
and I was responding to your bait..hate to get the context wrong now..
Although in essence I still stand by the fact the magazine reflected the sentiments of the time. Which whilst obviously somewhat bizarre looking through the prism of today were still rather mild compared to other nations at a simliar time in history (or even today..if you happen to be an ethnic minority in say (Just for fun, choosing somewhere besides Indonesia) Malaysia.
Well this has been interesting, I was hoping that perhaps latte lounge lizards might throw up something that may make me re-evaluate my position but nagh!
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pmProbably. And probably.
>:-(
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pm@ Oigs….Not saying you are wrong..just a dreamer (thats not an insult, I think you expect the world to be fairer and more just place than it is)
Dont say that or I will be out of a job…lol!!!That is why working in social policy is a thankless task!!
Many of the work streams I come across you see the same cycles over and over again….and we never stop, take stock and see the impact, learn from it and move on…alot of policy making that I have been involved drives me round the bend as it is always reactive and never proactive…
@ Andy – not disputing your points at all but the thread is on Dutch War Crimes…that has always been my challenge with you …..
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September 25th, 2008 at 4:57 pm@ Oigs… sorry forgot to also say hear your point Do you really think the dutch will meekly accept “they are guilty of war crimes” (correctly or not)? Particularly from Indonesia who has a bagful of its own dirty washing, some far more recent which will give every conserative dutchman a stack of ammo to muddy the issue.
But in the court framework the subject matter is dutch war crime and Indonesia recent events is a separate issues which will not be discussed and will play no impact on overall judgemnet in theory….
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September 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pmMets-@ Andy – not disputing your points at all but the thread is on Dutch War Crimes…that has always been my challenge with you …..
my apologies, I shall start my own thread soon on Indonesian War Crimes…..should be interesting.
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September 25th, 2008 at 5:22 pm@ Mets,
Sounds interesting. What sort of of social policy.
Much as I hate to admit this, I think Pak Oigalhas a point in terms of alienating allies and handing ammo to crusty right wing bastards, which exist in any society. Even some of them aren’t so bad up close if they feel comfortable and understood. Guess that goes for most non-sociopath human beings.
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September 25th, 2008 at 5:26 pm@ ANDY – very brave man!!! make sure you have enough ammo to survive lol!!
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Patrick says:
September 25th, 2008 at 8:58 pmIf I was an Indonesian descendent of those who suffered under the Dutch I would only hope that the Dutch would acknowledge their past war-crimes and I would not expect nor accept any personal restitution for it. The reason is that it is simply blood money for something that I would have not directly faced (I do realize that some victims are still living but I am addressing restitution for descendent generations) and therefore it would be a disgrace to the memory of those who actually did experience the brutality. Now if the collective Dutch guilt saw necessary to provide money for building schools, housing, roads etc., or other infrastructure in the area that would be much more acceptable then trying to sort out who actually is a descendent and how much money each “victim” is entitled. Restitution as a whole under these circumstances is at best a very tricky business and if we go far enough back in history are we not all perpetrators and victims of crimes against humanity?
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September 25th, 2008 at 9:54 pm@ Achmad – I specialise in; 3 areas – Community Safety portfolio is broken down into: Hate Crime, Anti Social Behaviour, Domestic Violence, Youth Gang Culture, Preventing Violent Extremism & Violent crime, Drugs & Alcohol & Prolific Offenders; under Adult Health portfolio is broken down into drug & alcohol treatment, learning disabilities & safeguarding; under Children & Young People portfolio is broken down into teenage pregnancy, teenage prostitution, safe guarding/ child protection, transition (the move from child into young adulthood) & exclusion & young offenders
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September 25th, 2008 at 10:09 pm@ Rob – After I posted I went back and read some comments on the first page and realized what I said mirrored, in some details to what you had written earlier about Dutch acknowledgement etc., Nice to know we can agree on this matter! : > )
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Oigal says:
September 26th, 2008 at 9:06 amcrusty right wing bastards…..Even some of them aren’t so bad up close if they feel comfortable and understood. Guess that goes for most non-sociopath human beings.
Hey is that me????????? I am offended by the crusty..
BTW.. As an aside..right wing is not necessarliy evil just when you get the the extereme edge same as for the left (and then there is no difference anyway)
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Oigal says:
September 26th, 2008 at 9:19 amaagh can’t help myself…
Mets… I admire your perservance and sunny outlook..However being a relatively simple man, when faced with a complex problem I have always found it best to reduce the issue to its simples form..
Lets see we want to help the people who suffered (in this case) under dutch occupation?
lets see we could approach this in two simple ways (I have reduced the long tedious lawyer weasel words to the underlying meaning;
“Right you bastards, your grandfathers were a bunch of mongrel murders so give us money and stuff now and admit you were bastards and grandfathers were scum.”
or
“Hey listen guys we had a hell of tough time 60 years ago and it is still a major issue for us, any chance of helping us build some schools and organisations to teach the rule of law, respect and dignity for others so what we suffered isn’t a recurring nightmare for our people?
It might be just the crustiness winning out but one option seems to have a lot more chance of sucess than the other
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September 26th, 2008 at 10:15 amSeksi Friends,
@ Mets — cool. Where u do dat ?
@ Oigsy — crusty right wing bastards was a reference to the dutch veterans you alluded to. yes, agree. It’s juvenile to think people on the other side are automatically bastards, right or left.
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Oigal says:
September 26th, 2008 at 11:02 amreference to the dutch veterans you alluded to
In fact, you may will find the biggest hurdle you face is the neo nationalists and armchair generals who never heard a shot fired in anger.. It’s easy to order a slaughter from miles away..you may well find a number of the veterans are very sympathic.
I remember reading an account (sorry forget the exact details) in Bali where the whole populace of a region (men, women and children) marched upon a Dutch position with just traditional knives and weapons and the dutch were armed with a number of machine guns and heavy weapons.
The account I read, stated that the Dutch soldiers were to a man weeping, as the Balinese kept marching into be slaughered, despite the soldiers begging them to stop. I also heard the local (dutch) commander of that postion committed suicide a couple of days later. I have feeling most human beings (not all) would have difficulty living with that for the rest of their lives (but the general who ordered the defence would be proud of his defence of the realm).
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September 26th, 2008 at 11:22 amHi Oigs,
Think it was “A Tale of Bali,” by Vicky Baum. Nice book.
Some latter historians — ?Adrian Vickers? perhaps, who has appeared on this site, later said the Royal families who went in for the puputan did it to maintain their Ksatria status.
Kind of took guts, if you ask me.
Think I also remember reading in the New Yorker of a study from Vietnam saying that most soldiers were reluctant to fire on other humans when it came down to it.
Wonder if there’s a movie version of the Puputan somewhere.
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