Dutch War Crimes

Sep 9th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

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826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”

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  1. avatar Robert says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    @Purba Negoro,

    Human Rights?
    I rarely, if ever mentioned anything about them.

    Are you sure?

    Crimes include
    Murder and Massacres
    Systematic Terrorism
    Putting Hostages to Death
    Torture of Civilians- plenty of houses in Semarang left as vacant museums to Dutch SS-like tactics
    The Dutch made such willing and decorated Nazi soldier- how could they not know such tortures?
    DELIBERATE STARVATION OF CIVILIANS
    RAPE
    Abduction f women and girls for forced prostitution
    Deportation of Civilians
    Inhumane internment of civilians
    Forced labour of civilians
    Usurpation of Sovereignty during military occupation
    Compulsory enlistment of inhabitants under military occupation
    Pillage
    Confiscation of Property
    Wanton destruction of religious, charitable, educational or historic buildings
    Destruction of fishing boats
    Destruction of monuments
    Use of exploding or expansive bullets or other inhumane bullets
    Directions to give no quarter
    Employment of POW on unauthorized works
    Using False flags of truce for combat
    Poisoning of wells
    Ill treatment of internees or civilian
    Cruel and unusual punishments or manner of death penalty
    Refusal of aid
    Withholding medical aid

    IMHO, I think this list contains plenty of human rights violations, measured by 1950′s as well as present day standards.

    You also mentioned:

    No- this is just the very beginning.
    The Dutch will be made to pay, and we shall drag them by their ear to do so.
    We have thousands of foreign authored as well as Indonesian documents on their well proven war crimes- including Operasie Krai, and the Police Actions- where civilians were routinely strafed and bombed.

    It is good to see you’ll make the Dutch bastards pay. Time is up now, it has taken too long before someone became active. The people of Rawagede will surely appreciate you taking the lead in this matter.
    Do hurry-up, as long as a center-left government is pulling the strings in the Netherlands, maybe you can appeal to their sentiments. The next government might be an extreme-right one, they will be very reluctant to draw the chequebook for any foreigner knocking at the frontdoor.
    When do you intent to start?

  2. avatar timdog says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    Andy,
    In your initial response to the onslaught from the “Indonesian horde” you offered me a specific challenge:

    Timdog, why do you think Indonesians can do what they like when in their country? Don’t good manners cross all cultural boundaries?

    I responded with a pretty detailed explaination of how very, very wrong you are on that point (and I do have to say, without being wantonly rude this time, that the very fact that you would think that does suggest that you’re not capable of making the imaginative leap to understanding that things are simply different – that’s different, not better or worse – in countries other than your own).
    You failed to respond, presumably because you had nothing to counter with, thus I started being rude and silly (to be fair, you do invite rudeness and silliness).
    I’m still waiting for you to explain to me why you believe that Australian version of “politeness” is the only one that exists in the world…

    Just to try to explain still further why I think you’re so ridiculous: if I start talking about what I think about East Timor, I’m pretty sure that PN will be extremely upset and will be very rude to me; if I start talking about Indonesia’s institutionalised outlook on its own history likewise; plenty of other things too.
    The difference is, I’m not personally bitter and ridiculous, and not engaged on a hysterical vendetta against an entire country.

    Woof Woof!

    xxx Lapdog ;-)

  3. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    Andy-
    I have great trouble reconciling yourself as an adult could be so voluntarily stupid, outright reject any fact for his own flawed opinion, petulant and infantile.

    It is your nation- you should know your own laws better than myself- but ti seems you are ignorant in every possible field of knowledge aside from scratching your butt, or watching sports on tv with slack jaw open catching flies.

    Australia DOES NOT allow BY LAW:
    NO property ownership
    NO business ownership
    NO employed legal work
    NO claim of benefits without authorisatiom

    by NON NATIONALS.

    The issue that Australia DOES NOT in PRACTICE check property ownership- is hardly a legal basis for arguing anyone can own property in Australia.
    Foreign nationals cannot own legally in Australia- as per any other nation.
    Go ask any Australian solicitor.

    CANNOT claim any benefits if you are a non national
    CANNOT work more than 20 hours per week on a student visa
    CANNOT work at all if on a tempery toursit visa.

    The fact that some students work more hours or Australians illegally hire temporary visa applicants are examples of criminal activity.

    you can see visa laws on your own nations’ Department of Immigration website.

    There is NO place in the world which would allow poorly documented foreign ownership or illegal migrant outstaying visa.

    Andy stop watching A Current Affair, listening to AM radio and reading the Herald Sun it is making you even dumber by the minute

    Maybe when Austrlia apologizes for funding separtism circa 1955-57, the Malayan Emergency Conflict, Suharto’s installation, the Vietnam war and the Iraq war- perhaps Indonesia may follow suit- if the legal requirement was to ever be met of illegal aggression.
    As per Iraq, etc- the UN is veyr clear Australian actions were illegal.

    Rob- stop wearing your pedant costume- it’s tiresome.
    But nice efforts at provoking.

  4. avatar timdog says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    … and oh yeah, Andy, sorry I forgot previously to address – what’s my reason for being in Indonesia? Well, I’m actually now unfortunately out of the country until probably June next year, at which point I will return again permanently…

    The thing that brought me to Indonesia in the very first instance was surfing. That and an ever increasing interest in the wider country brought me back again regularly until the point where I decided to live there. I am interested and attracted by Asia; I also like surfing. As Indonesia has the best surf in Asia, it’s a fairly obvious choice of place for me to be based.
    I am also genuinely fascinated by the country. I’m a joyously enthusiastic amateur historian and anthropologist; some people here might have noticed how childishly excited I get about cultural and religious oddities, “mysterious traditions” and “syncreticism”. Indonesia has all in spades. There’s also an endless realm of absurdly remote places to visit without leaving the country. In short, lots for me to take photos of and to write about. I could, I suppose, find many of those things elsewhere (India and Pakistan for example) but I wouldn’t get to go surfing so often.

    On top of that, with that sense of humour and self-awareness I previously mentioned, Indonesia is a far easier and more relaxed place in which to live that the UK, as far as I’m concerned, and the people in general seem to be far more pleasant to visiting or resident foreigners than many other southeast Asians (Thais and Vietnamese in particular)…

    Enough reasons?

    woof woof!

  5. avatar Deanevo says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Some corrections

    You don’t know anything about the WWII history in Europe.
    The Netherlands was not overrunned by the nazis and the defense was actually quite successful.
    The campaign in the Netherlands took too long and thats why the Germans took unusual measures, by bombarding Rotterdam and inflicted many civilian casualties.
    The result was that The Netherlands surrendered.
    De dutchspeaking people of Belgium are not dutch, they are a totally different nation.
    Only the language is

    Your mind is only coloured with hate.
    Dutch are since the 70′s not more rascists than any other nation, but yes they were rascists before.
    95% of the atrocities that are known today in The Netherlands, were not known to the public.
    The Dutch today are aware of what more or less happened in Indonesia.
    In fact, they are encouraging the Indonesian people to bring the Dutch government to trial. Nobody here in Holland likes this stinky business.

    sputjam Says:

    September 10th, 2008 at 10:01 am
    Dutch are racist. they were in south africa and indonesia and treats others like animals. The nazis occupied netherlands with very little resistance, unlike in france.
    Even today, the dutch of belgium does not get along with their french speaking counterparts.

  6. avatar Deanevo says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    And oh yeah..
    France was one of the most easy countries to conquer by Nazi Germany, even defended by French, Belgian and British troops.
    It only took longer because France is of course how many times bigger than The Netherlands.

  7. avatar Robert says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    @Purba Negoro,

    Rob- stop wearing your pedant costume- it’s tiresome.

    Practice what you preach PN, instead of lecturing. All the arguments you mentioned have been known for over 60 years. It is sad that the survivors of the Rawagede had to wait that long before they would get any legal assistance. The list of crimes you mentioned, is so long and gruesome that I would expect every critical Indonesian, like yourself, would have rubbed this list into every Dutch politician’s face a thousand times.

    Anyway PN, you are right, it is tiresome, so I will stop.

  8. avatar Mets says:
    September 19th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    @ Andy – again based on assumptions……dont work for the police but with the police at a strategic level….

    You had to go to the gutter assuming when a women stands up to you ..we are obviously sexually frustrated as suppose to the fact you can be very RUDE!!!

    & as for the pic…YOU PERVE!!

    Accusing me of assuming that only white male in the UK are the drug dealers..whether you like it or not it is based on statistics…majority of local authorities i have consulted with the british white male between the ages of 18-25 are the highest in access drug treatment services, the criminal justice drug intervention programme and the prolific & priority offenders scheme…

    There has been a rise over the last 5 years in repeat victimisation towards the black and minority ethnic groups…again fact…….

    Does this make me racist, if quoting fact…especially in a field area that not only I know but also am known in the field

    I am not denying that Indonesia & Gvt is not squeaky clean…but the topic of the thread is DUTCH WAR CRIMES!!! THAT IS MY POINT so why you have to flip it to talk about how bad Indonesia & Indonesia people are…as suppose to as a victim of a war crime do they not have the right to be acknowledge as this and be recompensed in some shape of form be it monetary or a form of a apology etc…

    DOESN’T ANY VICTIM HAVE A RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOME LEVEL OF REPARATION BY THEIR PERPETRATOR!!!

  9. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 1:20 am

    Rob
    Actually I listed War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity NOT HUMAN RIGHTS abuses.
    all is forgiven. Go with God, child.

    Deanevo-
    Not entirely true regarding current Dutch- some are good, but I would argue many are either disinterested, willfully ignorant, dismissive or outright rejectionists and apologists.

    As per the Dutch vs France- sorry not true :

    Fall Rot commenced 5th Jun, with Germans pushing through the Maginot Line, and reached Paris on 14 June. The Second Army surrendered on the 25 June, 27 June, full Official capitulation orders were signed.
    The main reason for France’s collapse was shocking communications- the Germans even surprised by French inexplicable French maneuvering.

    Germans had employed
    Germany: 141 divisions, 7,378 guns, 2,445 tanks, 5,638 aircraft 3,350,000 Germans,
    45,000 dead, 110,000 wounded

    Against
    144 divisions, 13,974 guns, 3,384 tanks, 2,935 aircraf Total: 2,862,000 French and British
    360,000, 1.7 million captured casualties to France,

    Duration 12-23 days

    Fall Gelb was a mop up operation- and near total success lasting less than one week.
    German invasion commenced 10 May.
    In the early hours of May 14, the Dutch army could no longer offer resistance and had to withdraw.

    On May 14, 1940 General Schmidt (German Commander of the 39th Army Corps) issued an ultimatum to Colonel Scharroo, the Dutch Commander of Rotterdam. Rotterdam was to be destroyed if the troops did not surrender.

    General Winkelman, Commander-in-Chief of the Dutch armed forces, wanted to play for time. He asked Scharroo to request a second ultimatum.

    Schmidt ordered the bombardment postponed due to the further surrender negotiations. He had a new ultimatum drawn up at 1:20 p.m. and allowed Scharroo three hours to surrender.

    However, German bombers appeared within mere minutes. Panicking, Schmidt ordered red flares to be let off to indicate surrender. It was too late. One squadron could abort its attack in time, but the planes approaching from the east dropped their bombs on the City. The bombing lasted for 15 minutes.

    The Dutch capitulated entirely and immediately thereafter- and formally signed fulls surrender papers on May17- 8 days.

    On May 15- Hitler bombed Middelburg and Zeeland- the few Dutch remaining capitulated immediately.

    Dutch 9 divisions,676 guns, 124 aircraft total: 280,000
    2,332 dead 6,000 wounded 271,668 captured or escaped to safety 70 planes lost, 2,000~ Civillians Killed

    Germans: 22 divisions, 1,378 guns, 759 tanks, 1,150 aircraft
    Total: 750,000
    2,500~ dead, 5,500 wounded, 700 missing, 2000 captured, 350 planes lost

    Duration 4 days.

    So, France held out between 4 to 6 times longer than the Dutch and judging by casualties- and very roughly fought 1,000 times harder

    Between 20,000 and 25,000 Dutchmen served in the Heer and the Waffen-SS. The most notable formations were the 4th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland which saw action exclusively on the Eastern Front and the SS Volunteer Grenadier Brigade Landstorm Nederland which fought in Belgium and the Netherlands.[2]

    SS Die Nederlander distinguished itself on the Eastern Front during the Battle of Narva (1944), with several troopers receiving the Knight’s Cross, Nazi Germany’s highest award for bravery.

    From a Dutch website:
    http://www.holland.com/oorlogssporen/gb/index.html?page=http://www.holland.com/oorlogssporen/gb/operations/1940.html

  10. avatar Andy says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 3:56 am

    timdog-I’m still waiting for you to explain to me why you believe that Australian version of “politeness” is the only one that exists in the world…

    Ok so this is the question right!!! Yes you gave me an example of Indonesian hospitality re the motorcycle ride in the village, now I remember. Actually I just had a perfect example of politeness and manners this morning. I went to my local supermarket in Melbourne and had a woman with trolley load of goods in front of me. I only had my Herald Sun (yes Purba, its a good read-great footy section) and so she let me go through. Interesting how in 3.5 years in Indonesia this never happened to me. I used to regularly shop in Carrefour in Ratu Plaza and was astonished by the lack of manners there. One example like you gave me but a compelling one. Yes it is their country and they don’t have to do it but anyone with an ounce of common sense and courtesy regardless of colour or creed would, wouldn’t they? And going back to my previous example, I didn’t need to be born in Australia to know that a guy / girl on lunch doesn’t want to answer grammatical questions. That is why we have the disctintion between working hours and breaktimes. Do you need to be born in certain countries to know that? I don’t think so. So to answer your question, Indonesians level of politeness is extremely poor on a world level. Satisfied?

  11. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 5:14 am

    @ Andy

    Actually I just had a perfect example of politeness and manners this morning. I went to my local supermarket in Melbourne and had a woman with trolley load of goods in front of me. I only had my Herald Sun (yes Purba, its a good read-great footy section) and so she let me go through. Interesting how in 3.5 years in Indonesia this never happened to me.

    Either they think you are a miserable Bule or you had that cheeky smart alec smirk on yer face.

  12. avatar Andy says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 5:50 am

    Mets-DOESN’T ANY VICTIM HAVE A RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOME LEVEL OF REPARATION BY THEIR PERPETRATOR!!!

    Sure, as long as it cuts both ways….How many Indonesians were killed by mmm Indonesians during the rise of the New Order? (see I do care about your people) Chinese killed in 1998? Communist or suspected communists at all times? Timorese, Acehnese, Papuan, Ambonese etc…See the list goes on. I don’t ever expect any of these victims will get a cent for two reasons…One your country simply can’t afford it and Two to lose face and admit one is wrong is almost a sin not only in Indonesia but Asia in general. Personally though I believe it would be a show of courage if someone did this.

  13. avatar Andy says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 6:05 am

    Purba-Australia DOES NOT allow BY LAW:
    NO property ownership
    NO business ownership
    NO employed legal work
    NO claim of benefits without authorisatiom

    by NON NATIONALS.

    Correct but you missed one important point. You can migrate to Australia, we can’t migrate to Indonesia. There are a few places we can buy into in Bali and Batam if I am right but the fact remains Indonesian law is very restrictive compared to other neighbouring countries. In Thailand for example, one cannot migrate there either but doesn’t have to leave the country every year if has a teaching contract and can own land / property.

    Question – My son, who is an Indonesian citizen, if he was to buy land, property now but then at age 17 decides to become an Australian citizen (he has to choose at that age) will he remain the rightful owner of that land for the rest of his natural life or will the government pull the rug from under him?

    PS before I get another round of abuse this is a serious and important question and would like an honest sincere answer.

  14. avatar Andy says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 6:13 am

    Oh sorry timdog forgot -If being from a country gives you ‘rights’ to be different can I piss on my migrant neighbour’s fence?

  15. avatar timdog says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 7:03 am

    Indonesians level of politeness is extremely poor on a world level

    Andy, once again, you astound me. I assume that during your time in Inonesia you were simply too busy being pissed off at your disturbed lunchbreaks to notice that Indonesians, particularly Javanese, take politeness to almost ridiculous levels.
    You were, as I said before, I garuntee, making endless atrocious transgressions on a daily basis while you were in Indonesia. You weren’t aware that you were doing it, because you were too busy stewing about the things you considered not to meet up to Australian standards. And anyway, Indonesians being generally very pleasant and polite, nobody pointed out how offensive you were being.

    What? Some rich people in a shopping mall didn’t stand aside for Mr Bule?
    Some students who you were being paid to teach demonstrated some real interest in their subject matter?
    And instead of choosing to approach those minor annoyances with the sense of humour and perspective required to survive in any country other than your own, you chose to make them an indictment of an entire nation? You really are a piece of work Andy…

    And just incidentally, on the subject of queues, I couldn’t begin to count the number of times that, feeling thoroughly embarrassed, I have been propelled to the front of Indonesian waiting lines in doctor’s waiting rooms, ferry terminals, the office where I paid my TV bill etc etc courtesy of my “special bule privalege permit” (issued on arrival at the same as the “special bule politeness exemption permit”)… but I woudn’t expect it in frickin carrefour for f*cksake…

    As for your immigrant neighbour, why don’t you go and have a chat with him? I imagine he might tell you that if he makes in Australia the kind of “politeness” faux pas that you, or I, or any other bule has made a thousand times Indonsia, rather than polite understanding, he has a good chance of being met with at best a mouthful of abuse – if not much worse…

  16. avatar Andy says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 9:31 am

    Oh timdog, I don’t expect anyone to stand aside for me because of my race, I said that in most countries it is the norm (not a priveledge) to allow someone to pass with one item when they have a full trolley. Just good manners.. Do they do that in the UK? I’m sure they would, my american friends used to make the same point i’m making.

    And for the record, I am friendly with all my neighbours, I was just making a point ok. I don’t wish to piss on anyone’s fence, it is impolite.

  17. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

    Andy-
    with regards to Migration. Yes Bule can migrate.
    The migration procedure is long- taking approx 5 years of continual proven intention to abode in Indonesia, and continual employment.
    That Law is intended to deter low-life immigrants from other Third world nations- we now have major problems with Africans and Mainland Chinese.
    Compared to a First World nation we may be somewhat unattractive, but compared to many Third world nations, Indonesia is pretty good.

    Indonesian Property rights are restrictive- but this is a function of 1945 Constitution- this nation is very resource rich and the intention was for us not to become again slaves within our own nation- beholden to foreign corporations.
    You will find many former colonised nations have similar restrictions on foreign ownership.
    For example, in China- land ownership is illegal. All land is owned by he State, and people ‘possess’ land via long-term leaseholds- 75 years. Foreign entity may not own more than 50% of properties, corporations or businesses- furthermore the longest lease foreigner may attain for a property is 25 years.

    Re your Son.
    Honestly I do not know- especially considering new laws of dual nationality.
    I think you’d best seek Indonesian legal advice rather than rely on my shaky knowledge.

    Manners:
    What pases in good manners in one culture, is bad manners in another nation.
    Consider the Arab custom of burping loudly after a meal to show your appreciation of host host and chef.
    What about finishing every last speck on your plate in the West- to show you enjoyed the meal.
    In Asia- this is a sign you’re hungry and the host has been very poor to not bother to feed you enough.
    It could be in Carrefour the person was sick of seeing bule propelled to the front of the queue and thought bule can learn to wait for a change.
    Who knows?

    Compensation:
    Some of the comparison you use are poor analogies.
    Especially the issue you raise about Chinese and Communist murders is problematic.
    Both did not involve the State apparatus- so how can the State then be liable for compensation?
    Much evidence for other extra legal disappearances etc is very vague if at all present- so the issue of solid proof would hamper any claim- it’s a very big nation. The State could easily claim these people bought another KTP and they’re just trying to get some money for nothing- hardly an unusual trick in Indonesia.

    Sorry:
    Not quite true Andy. You’ve been spending too much time around Chinese if you think ‘face’ is important.
    Face is “gengsi”- not a desirable quality.
    Even for Javanese- admitting personal wrong is a sign of modesty and humility- two very highly valued Indonesian qualities.
    Furthermore we have plenty of words for sorry, as you now “ma’af’, “mohon ma’af”, “minta ma’af”, “beribu maaf” “nuwen sewu”, “pareng”, “permisii”, “ndhere langkong”, “sorrry, ya Meeesterrrrrr”,

    But rude people exist everywhere Andy- and I very much doubt you’d find the preferential treatment you had in Jakarta, in Melbourne.

    Melbourne is vastly different to every other Australian city- you live in the culture capital.
    From my experience it appears Sydney Adelaide and Perth were almost full of “Aussie Aussie Aussie, OI, OI, OI” type yobs and d*heads.
    I remember plenty of Melbournians sneering at Darwin and Queensland rednecks too.
    Like Londoners and anyone North of Harlington Spa= Northern bastards, Ey-ups, Tikes, Lilo Lils, Midlands Bastards, Scousers, an endless list.

  18. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    Timdog,

    Let’s cut to the chase.

    Where are the best places for beginners to learn to surf ?

    In Java
    In Bali
    Undiscovered locations ?

    Hope you can share.

    Surfing is far more important than anything raised so far, including Ukuleles, poetry, or anything.

    I’m sure you agree.

  19. avatar Berlian Biru says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    “Melbourne is vastly different to every other Australian city- you live in the culture capital.
    From my experience it appears Sydney Adelaide and Perth were almost full of “Aussie Aussie Aussie, OI, OI, OI” type yobs and d*heads.”

    Melbourne and Sydney compete in my opinion for the accolade of the rudest people in Australia.

    Perth people on the other hand are without exception, lovely, friendly, easygoing and relaxed (and the most Asian, I wonder if that’s related?).

  20. avatar timdog says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Achmad,
    You are right, of course… There are lots of options for beginner surfers in Indonesia. If you are looking for somewhere “off the beaten track” with a chilled-out scene and some good conditions for learning, there is a standing wave on the Sungai Mahakam. It’s just beyond the sixteenth bend north of Long Iram and there’s an excellent little warung serving milkshakes and mushroom omlettes in the jungle nearby. It’s popular with Japanese surfers.
    Do bear in mind that during the rainy season the river flows in the opposite direction and the sun rises in the west…
    Danau Toba can also be good during earthquakes.

  21. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    Pak Timdog,

    Many thanks.

    Where’s the Sungai Mahakam place ?

    Anywhere in Java?

    Bali ? Kuta beach seems fab !

    Dear All,

    Surfing is highly, highly recommended.

    Unfortunately for some reason, it seems to attract a lot of hard-core imbeciles and morons. Fortunately, they can be dealt with, using a “hey bro” or “g’day”..

  22. avatar Robert says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    @Purba Negoro,

    Go with God, child.

    Yes, vicar.

  23. avatar Rob says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Does Australia allow property rights and other benefits to permanent residents?

  24. avatar Ish says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

    Rob Says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
    Does Australia allow property rights and other benefits to permanent residents?

    Yes I think they do allow property rights, several of my family friends own properties in Australia, and they’re permanent residents, not citizens.

    And I know for a fact they were pretty generous before on welfare benefits such as centrelink (give you money if you dont have job etc) and HECS (where the gov lends you money interest free to go to uni) That is until migrants started rotting the system. I remember hearing stories how migrants started creating multiple accounts(identities) and receiving large sums of undeserved benefits while practically sitting on their arse doing nothing, and/or students getting HECS but never paying the government back because they leave the country and never comes back.

    Question – My son, who is an Indonesian citizen, if he was to buy land, property now but then at age 17 decides to become an Australian citizen (he has to choose at that age) will he remain the rightful owner of that land for the rest of his natural life or will the government pull the rug from under him?

    My youngest brother is facing the same dilemma, however after much consideration we think it will better for him to remain an Indonesian citizen, and to get Australian permanent residency instead when the time comes for him to make a choice.

    If he wants to, at a later stage in life, to relinquish his Indonesian citizenship for an Australian one, he can, and the process is much easier than vice-versa. And given the fact he’s going to stay in Indonesia more than Australia, it would be more beneficial for him to remain an Indonesian citizen. After all we’re too aware of the restrictive visa conditions given to foreign nationals (citizens) living in Indonesia, in contrast to Indonesian citizens living in Australia as permanent resident.

    Being an Australian Citizen does, however, have its own unique benefits, and subsequently, having an Australian Passport, as opposed to an Indonesian one. I guess it depends on your personal circumstances and choice.

    Sucks how Indonesia doesn’t allow dual citizenships…

  25. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 20th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Yes- to PR allowed.

    BUT the caveat is for post 2003 PR applicant to qualify as a PR they must document minimum of 720 days (roughly 2 years) of 5 years in Australia.

    Other PR include methods include
    Sponsorship- via employer (onus is on employer to prove non existence of suitable employee already within Australia= many very grumpy employers unwilling o do so)

    via spouse- requiers proof of two years co-habitation prit to aplciation AND a check-up in 2 more years (loop-holes closed due to Britain phenomena of Indians/Pakistani marrying their cousins (obviously not consumating marriage- merely a legal marriage) and importing hundreds of family members)

    family reunion – very difficult nowadays- requires proof and h care for over 45 yrs old and 60yrs old migrants proof family will sponsor health. Also those aged over 65 very difficult to migrate (Howard government closed this well-known scam- so now many Indians and Chinese not able to exploit it)

    via cadetship (employer) (a lot of new Chinese economics/commerce graduates follow this path working for huge multi-national like KPMG or PWC)

    via distinguished talent (must be proven- I don’t think Achmad’s unique handless shadow ‘puppetry’ really fits the criteria- amusing as it is)

    via points system

    Most opt for points system, whereby if lacking adequate points, $100,000 bond must be lodged for 2 years duration while applicant is processed.
    For severe lack of points, $500,000 must be lodged for same period.

    See- we Indonesians talk a lot especially amongst us parents who send children abroad.
    Now Australian PR very tricky to obtain- their Immigration Dept has learnt very quickly all these clever Chinese and Indian tricks and scams.

    My distant Auntie on wife’s side- wife of former Trade minister who once met with Keating and Hawke in Australia and been many times since the 1990s- has to undergo full physical by Australian approved doctor and submit blood test every time for Australian visa application. She once had her visa refused- despite visiting only three months before! So she call her friends who still can pull strings who summon Australian ambassador to please explain to Trade Department!

    But now for Muslim Indonesian- regardless of wealth or keen visitor to Australia, Aussie VISA even tourist is very, very hard to get.

  26. avatar timdog says:
    September 21st, 2008 at 1:13 am

    Mas Achmad,
    Kuta Beach is gnarly, dude…

    Some more advice:
    If you wish to visit Mount Bromo I suggest flying with Adam Air to Surabaya, then taking a taxi to the main bus terminal known as “Dolly”. Get a “quick one” from there to the top of Gunung Welirang. You’ll need to take a becak (three-wheeled bicycle thing) for the last 2 kilometres to the summit (pay no more that ten billion rupiah). From the top of Welirang specially trained giant fruit bats carry tourists to Bromo in time for sunrise each morning. Don’t forget to bring warm clothes and snacks!
    While you’re travelling in this (very beautiful) part of the country a good tip is this: the word for “thank you” in the local Javanese dialect is “jancok”. Use this freely during you’re trip and you’ll be sure of a warm reception.

    Now, I have a question for you – is it possible to swim from Timor to Australia? (I want to travel overland from London to Dragabagalong).

  27. avatar Deanevo says:
    September 21st, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Purba Negoro
    Sure there is a dutch percentage of people who are just not interested or ignorant about their history, but they are not more ignorant than the average Javanese about the actions of the Indonesian military in Aceh, East-Timor or other islands.
    Are these East-Timor, Aceh things so good?

    As for the WWII.
    That site is not completely accurate.
    The main reason of the french collapse was not miscommunication, but simply a new German type of war strategy, Kesselschlacht or better known as Blitzkrieg.
    Also the French like the Dutch had an oldfashion view about militairy tactics.
    Although successful French maneuvering is just some sporadic little incidents, the Polish, Russian, Dutch had these moments too.
    Miscommunication is just a consequence if you are being blitzkrieged.
    The Dutch lost indeed at the Grebbeberg and a lot of eastern ground, but the defense of the provinces Noord and Zuid Holland, Zeeland, Friesland and parts of Brabant was truly successful.
    Netherlands 41.528 km² conquered in 8 days.
    France 551.500 km² conquered in 22 days.
    I don’t want to claim here who is more courageous, cowardly or fought harder or something, but you see, these figures in combination with your numbers say something to me.
    The Dutch indeed had a SS Brigade in the German army, but the Belgians, Danish, Norwegian, Spanish etc. too.
    And some of that countries had more than 1 SS Brigade at the same time.
    My grandfather was in the resistance, caught and executed but I don’t have any hate to Germans, as their majority were actually also victims of governments. I have german friends and they are not responsible of what happened more than 60 years ago.

    You see the reason I commented on this site is, on this site the atmosphere tends to be very much a childish anti-white or anti-dutch with the purpose to project all the frustrations on them. Í see people commenting here who just grab any opportunity to put down any white man, as if they have been in these times theirselves.
    and all based on speculations like Andy would be probably a sex tourist.

    Deanevo-
    Not entirely true regarding current Dutch- some are good, but I would argue many are either disinterested, willfully ignorant, dismissive or outright rejectionists and apologists.

    As per the Dutch vs France- sorry not true :

    Fall Rot commenced 5th Jun, with Germans pushing through the Maginot Line, and reached Paris on 14 June. The Second Army surrendered on the 25 June, 27 June, full Official capitulation orders were signed.
    The main reason for France’s collapse was shocking communications- the Germans even surprised by French inexplicable French maneuvering.

    Germans had employed
    Germany: 141 divisions, 7,378 guns, 2,445 tanks, 5,638 aircraft 3,350,000 Germans,
    45,000 dead, 110,000 wounded

    Against
    144 divisions, 13,974 guns, 3,384 tanks, 2,935 aircraf Total: 2,862,000 French and British
    360,000, 1.7 million captured casualties to France,

    Duration 12-23 days

    Fall Gelb was a mop up operation- and near total success lasting less than one week.
    German invasion commenced 10 May.
    In the early hours of May 14, the Dutch army could no longer offer resistance and had to withdraw.

    On May 14, 1940 General Schmidt (German Commander of the 39th Army Corps) issued an ultimatum to Colonel Scharroo, the Dutch Commander of Rotterdam. Rotterdam was to be destroyed if the troops did not surrender.

    General Winkelman, Commander-in-Chief of the Dutch armed forces, wanted to play for time. He asked Scharroo to request a second ultimatum.

    Schmidt ordered the bombardment postponed due to the further surrender negotiations. He had a new ultimatum drawn up at 1:20 p.m. and allowed Scharroo three hours to surrender.

    However, German bombers appeared within mere minutes. Panicking, Schmidt ordered red flares to be let off to indicate surrender. It was too late. One squadron could abort its attack in time, but the planes approaching from the east dropped their bombs on the City. The bombing lasted for 15 minutes.

    The Dutch capitulated entirely and immediately thereafter- and formally signed fulls surrender papers on May17- 8 days.

    On May 15- Hitler bombed Middelburg and Zeeland- the few Dutch remaining capitulated immediately.

    Dutch 9 divisions,676 guns, 124 aircraft total: 280,000
    2,332 dead 6,000 wounded 271,668 captured or escaped to safety 70 planes lost, 2,000~ Civillians Killed

    Germans: 22 divisions, 1,378 guns, 759 tanks, 1,150 aircraft
    Total: 750,000
    2,500~ dead, 5,500 wounded, 700 missing, 2000 captured, 350 planes lost

    Duration 4 days.

    So, France held out between 4 to 6 times longer than the Dutch and judging by casualties- and very roughly fought 1,000 times harder

    Between 20,000 and 25,000 Dutchmen served in the Heer and the Waffen-SS. The most notable formations were the 4th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland which saw action exclusively on the Eastern Front and the SS Volunteer Grenadier Brigade Landstorm Nederland which fought in Belgium and the Netherlands.[2]

    SS Die Nederlander distinguished itself on the Eastern Front during the Battle of Narva (1944), with several troopers receiving the Knight’s Cross, Nazi Germany’s highest award for bravery.

  28. avatar Oigal says:
    September 22nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Lol ..ASSMAD the surfer chick..wonders will never cease.

    I have passed your comments on the intervention onto Noel Pearson, he will be pleased to know that in ASSMAD’s world, he doesn’t FA about what may or may not be needed in aborginal communities.

    J, You are right (despite the ASSMAD’S feeble attempts to misrepresent whenever faced with a discussion topic beyond grade five simplicity) I fully agree (along with about 99.9% of Asutralians) that a country such as Australia should be able to achieve a better outcome of aborginals than has been so far been achieved.

    Terminology and apologies remain wanky trendy terms which achieve nothing whilst the core issues remain unsolved. This is where the ASSMADS of the world come unstuck, ask them to contribute anything more than hollow, latteish chants to the debate and the silence by avoidance is deafening.

    I don’t know how such aid, help, assistance could be delivered successfully. So many things have been tried and billions wasted and effectively all that has occured is an every going army of tax payer funded ASSMADS with little tangible results (KRUDD’s sorry is a classic example, lots of press, lots of attention…name one community better off because his ego stroking SORRY).

    ASSMAD..Our glib goanna, instead of misrepresenting others and stroking your over developed sense of self worth and intelligence, why don’t you advise us on how to fix the problem instead of just adding to it?

  29. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 22nd, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Sigh, Dear, Dear, Oigsy-Poigsy.

    There’s a giant literature out-there and half a century of post-world war two experience on how to lift downtrodden communities out of their various plights.

    This is what I’m talking about, on the Wounded Soldier theme. It’s typical for ex Army guys to pitch themselves as honest, hardworking types, who know the realities of the real world, as opposed to those goddamn pencilnecks and intellectuals. In reality, what they’re pitching is half-baked crap.

    On the aboriginals and their plight,

    I’ll tell if you’ll tell.

    So, for the tenth time.:

    How did they get to where they are ? What wrongs were done to Australian aboriginals in the last two centuries ? I’m asking because the answers might point the way forwards.

    I love, by the way, that you talk about 99.9 % of the Australian community. Like you represent anyone but yourself, Oigsy-Poigsy.

  30. avatar Oigal says:
    September 23rd, 2008 at 8:22 am

    TSk Tsk ..Assmad, Short of insults, its a shame that out of those reams of literature to which you refer you are unable to define any viable proposal at all, really wasn’t much point in you reading then was there?

    My view: Much as been tried and often despite the best intentions the “solution has actually compounded the problem.

    In reality, what they’re pitching is half-baked crap

    Nice try but as usual in error.. I have not pitched anything, do pay attention now our latte lick spittle:

    1. In my opinion, the terms compensation and sorrys etc achieve little in reality expect polarise sections of the community with no actual “on the ground substance”

    2. I fully support “any” section of the community been lifted from a cycle of poverty and abuse by whatever practical and viable means (ASSMAD..QUICK..YOUR REAMS INSERT HERE.

    3. I have seen any number of such aid packages, plans and intentions fail and readiliy admit that I personally have no idea how it could be done successfully (therein lies the difference between you and I, I admit I do not know how to this could be done, you on the other hand like so many of the frauds, quick with the accusations, misrepresentations and glib weasel words but when it comes to substance….zilch!

    4. 99.9% of the population, ok I admit a little license there. Point is, the vast majority (and I mean vast) would support any plan to lift aborginal communities out the situation currently experienced by so many. What people are tired of is the rote wank so aptly spewed forth by lounge chair experts like yourself, which add nothing to solution other than snaffling some government funded grant at the expense of people who really need it.

    This is what I’m talking about, on the Wounded Soldier theme. It’s typical for ex Army guys to pitch themselves as honest, hardworking types, who know the realities of the real world, as opposed to those goddamn pencilnecks and intellectuals.

    Despite the absolute accuracy of the above statement, it will remain one of lifes bizarre little mysteries (Like your mothers decison to have children) what relevance it has on the conversation?

    How did they get to where they are ? What wrongs were done to Australian aboriginals in the last two centuries ? I’m asking because the answers might point the way forwards.

    Silly in the extreme, would you like a 20,000 page essay on euro-politics and trade at the time, the effect of religion in defining status of people, races and trade. The world has changed ASSMAD do try and catch up. You cannot seriously apply todays western standards of human rights and freedoms to what was “normal” hundreds of years ago (does not make what happened right but does place things into a historical context)

    What is important is to acknowledge the problem exists now and fix that.

    Although an interesting point for some (not you ASSMAD, concepts would be beyond someone who has never lived beyond driving distance of starbucks) would be to read “The Fatal Shore” which historicially offers an explaination why in the early years of settlement (despite laws of Aborginal Rights Protection, some of the first in the world) at best an absolute indifference was shown to the plight of the aborginal people (at worst active aggression and persecution).

    The aborginal people were viewed as (weirdly enough) Government Aid’s and lags assisting the persecution of the large convict population of the time, particulary as their use as “blacktrackers” increased. Additionally the natural response to encroachment was for aborginal tribes to attack those pushing further into the bush, logically they would pick the easier targets being the convict chain gangs and conditionally pardoned settlers (who got the most disputed land, rich and connected as usual were well protected closer to the main settlements).

    Therefore to the vast majority of the settlers and others, aborginals became to be distrusted and resented as much as the central authority of government. I guess the lesson here is Governments (and rote chanters like Assmad) who use Aborginals to further their own little agendas (whilst all the time whilsting, we care about them) are really not going to achieve anything unless they bring the whole population long with them otherwise any aborginal aid plan is view as us against them yet again. You are not going to get the whole popualtion on board playing the generational guilt game. Some government funded, shiny arse nose picker constantly screaming at Mr and Mrs PAYE taxpayer from inside his shiny public funded office “that their great grand daddy was a evil racist therefore you must pay up” is both counter-productive and merely continues a system of blaming the average joe for something that has never had any control or influence over since settlement.

    Touble is Mr True Blue is a contrary bugger..keep screaming at him that he is evil and must pay for your grandfather’s crimes then sooner or later he will tell you to nick off…even if he knows and understands that there is cost to help people.

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