826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 9:28 amjeez…. talking about another gold
well arie obviously that’s what i’m asking, everybody were so busy bitching about it yet no body hold even the smallest evidence or stands before the courts … even when someone do stand… he’s come from a different tribes from a different district with the osame surname along with all of those ” common knowledge ” arounds. without some sorts of written proofs it mean nothing before court.. modern courtmanship requires it… a testimony only meant shit before other’s one…. thus entitle only a prejudice or let’s say. ..”fitnah”.. pointing finger without solution won’ t make us any better than them
and about the blog… well dude, thanks to george bush jr…. i’ve lost all my confidence on the western news outlets today . if so so called CNN and FOX can spew the lies so easily what makes them so different than Pos kota or lampu merah
everybody has their own agenda and goals. and it’s all tailored and costumized accordingly… it’s only a matter of eho took the bait and to what extent…
hell,even oghz could proclaims himself that he is a clark kent in disguise ( lol, sorry oghz
) … why don’t you try to take everything with a spoon of salts
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Arie Brand says:
June 13th, 2012 at 11:54 amSo what is your position? Only accepting as truth what has been established in Indonesian courts? Courts that are notoriously lacking in independence especially as far as the military is concerned? Dream on.
So not for you then but for other readers who are not after a cosmetically enhanced picture of the country and its institutions this about illegal logging in Papua:
Report by the Environmental Investigation Agency & Telepak
Extract : Official complicityFor the full report, see:
http://www.eia-international.org/files/reports93-1.pdfCompanies involved in timber theft from Papua are aided every step of the way by officials from the military, police and forestry department, as long as the requisite bribe is paid.
The military in Papua are involved in every aspect of illegal logging. Several forestry concessions in the province are linked to military foundations, notably the company Hanurata, which controls five concessions in Papua and shares its headquarters in Jayapura with a detachment of troops from the army’s special forces.
Military personnel are frequently employed as security for logging operations. One timber dealer based in Jakarta told EIA/Telapak
investigators that he had 30 soldiers on his payroll to secure his illicit forest concession.The army is also used to intimidate local communities opposed to logging operations on their lands. A report by human rights observers documented widespread logging-related abuse by troops stationed near Jayapura. The abuses involved intimidation, assaults and rape.
Navy forces operating in the eastern waters of Indonesia have won plaudits for intercepting a series of vessels carrying illegal logs from
Papua. Yet in many cases such seizures are carried out when the owner of the timber has underpaid the navy for protection of the shipment. An additional fee is then required to free the ship.The navy is also used by powerful timber bosses to disrupt the smuggling
operations of rivals. In addition to the armed forces, both forestry officials and police are implicated in illegal logging activities.In January 2002 four vessels loading illegal merbau logs near Sorong were
detected, yet all but one eluded capture. Investigations into the case reveal the role played by police and forestry officials in allowing the vessels and their cargoes to escape.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 12:54 pmjust for the info dude… i was in FORKOT during the height of the reformation waves ( until it got swayed over by some politician. and all unas student had to break out from it too )… so what’s you bringing it’s nothing new to me.
still the question lingers on…. where that victims and witness position now? ? too busy to throw tantrum while covering their ass and wipes out the evidence after profiteering? they all are whisper but not talking heh? reality checks dude!
i’m so sorry had to wakes you in sweets dreams but the reality doesn’t go that the way we were wish to be. idealisme and conviction was so cool during the forum discussion talks but that mean shit before the judges panels . so unless you had some sorts of hard evidence that i coulf presents…. be it a receive note or blatant picture or even a corpse for the examination…. it’s all a fairy tales to me.why do i was so insist on that? because… regardless the incompetence of our judges and chaotic courtmanships wsy of handling cases. … that the only thing we could do constitutionally ( today ). unless you do offering us another waves of “revolution” in which you’re willing to do alone along with bearing the consequences. ’cause we had enough with the words ” reformation ” and the chaotic times it brought along with… we’re on the development stage… bear with it
idealisme couldn’t feed your family out of hunger.and bitching around while doing nothing surely won’t takes you anywhere..
but i’m still an optimist…. as long as press and folks can speaks freely as today … slow as snails pace… all the mindset mentality gradually will change for the betters.
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Oigal says:
June 13th, 2012 at 1:25 pmSorry to disappoint you Bluey, spent half my life working with, on and via armour and I can assure you not even a lunatic would consider deploying an armored brigade into places like Kalimantan or Sumatera. As for the bulldozers they are barged down the Mahakam and impossible to protect, not that the TNI would try they are terrified of the Dayaks outside the urban centers.
But hey, as I said I couldn’t care less, it’s just plain funny..sad if you are Indonesian but funny for the rest of us.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 1:39 pmwell… it’s ok you had a different view…. but. still i stand my ground. although i’m not in service but with some past personal experiences i think i know what i’m talked about .. unless it proven on how and when it’s deployed ( which is soon enough ) … let rest our case for a while
by the way oghz…. that kind way of thinking that makes french and allied troops got owned ( litterally ) through ardennes…. and japan by britts in myanmar
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June 13th, 2012 at 1:40 pmso unless you had some sorts of hard evidence that i coulf presents…. be it a receive note or blatant picture or even a corpse for the examination…. it’s all a fairy tales to me.
Well by requiring that level of evidence you will never have to believe anything negative about the powers that be. It must make for a quiet life.
Your standard is not very practical though. You can hardly start examining corpses yourself and you will of course dismiss anybody else’s written report about such examinations – if these were feasible at all – as a fairytale. Also, those involved in corrupt and illegal dealings do not, as a rule, hand out ‘kwitansi2′.
Perhaps you should spend your next holiday in Papua and stray a bit from the beaten track. You still would not get the evidence you require but you might become a bit more receptive to what is obvious to so many there.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 3:14 pmbeen there done that… circa 2007… got some sub contracting job in jayapura and wamena
which makes me wonder and starting to questioning their local authourity ( yeah, their own natives in power ) with all the decentralization budget allocation ( they got the highest of all other province ) and power ruling legitimation …. there is so litle they could….. or would do for their own kind…. and stay 2 day/week at most in their own district to tends the governing matters even to a point blindfolding for their rampant youth alcoholic problems which is growing worse by the day .
i never said that i’ll perform the autopsy my self but the words “innocent till proven guilty” do works both ways and any damn wellpaid lawyers will not take that word for granted and glady searching for any available loophole. that the reality check dude.
i ‘m not gonna denied there’s somethingt wrong in there… but, every coins has two side of story… wether which side fit the agenda and for what purposes that what makes a fine question.
oh… oghz, if the ” well off” was white collar smucks. you asked…. obviously you ask the wrong guy indeed….
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June 13th, 2012 at 4:17 pmI ‘m not gonna denied there’s somethingt wrong in there… but, every coins has two side of story… wether which side fit the agenda and for what purposes that what makes a fine question.
That’s a cop out. It simply is not true that in any human rights problem (and the illegal logging has a human rights aspect) wrongs are evenly distributed on both sides. You can rest assured that the blame does mainly, if not exclusively, rest on the side with the guns.
the words “innocent till proven guilty” do works both ways
Well the tens of thousands of Papuans that have been murdered out of hand never got the benefit of that doubt.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 4:59 pmwell… hearing different tone on a different song will be akward and confusing if not disorientating. but if you willing to hear ( sometimes ) everything has own meaning and purposes which is essential for creating harmony
while i could not offer a quick solution for the matters adding the salt on open wounds will bring nothing but, endless vicious cycle that bring nothing good instead… and with the high rate of migration into islands…. chanting separationist ideas while not denouncing violence will bring more harm while getting more and more isolated for the local community( already a minority today )
let’s face the reality…. thanks to the chinese… everybody turn deaf and blind for them. and it is saddening indeed ’cause while the authority keep a tight leash on them…. indonesian as whole always treat and takes them as a brothers of motherland and we are conserning them whole heartedly. reconcilliation was the only logical solution while preserve justice and order. it always takes two for the tango
the question was now lies on them…. are they ready?
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June 13th, 2012 at 5:21 pmchanting separationist ideas while not denouncing violence will bring more harm
“not denouncing violence” – yes it would be easier for the oppressor if the oppressed just meekly accepted their fate. It won’t happen.
the local community( already a minority today
Yes, shame on your country that has made of the Papuans a minority in their own land.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 5:54 pm“not denouncing violence” – yes it would be easier for the oppressor if the oppressed just meekly accepted their fate. It won’t happen
just for the knowledge … on yesterday problem …all the boys goes rampage when their fellow got stabbed by the mob while on off duty with a plain civillian attire for accidentaly hit some boys with motorbike . while the litle boy got bruises those guy have paid with their lives …. is it a human right violation ??? you tell me
while some boys do crossed the lines … apparently some shit do happen and it would be called as a “simple accident” in their line of ( off ) duty while we talk about a balanced press and pointing finger sitting in our cozy corner .
welcome to the reality boy
Yes, shame on your country that has made of the Papuans a minority in their own land.
papua won’t be as developed as today if it wasn’t for the “visitor” help and sweats … or you even forget the facts already ?? development and changes always happen or it’s simply not happen in your perfect realms
or maybe you wish for papua be as advanced as sydney or london perhaps ??
serioussly … if you do have a peaceful solution rather than just flamesbait and lame moans let us hear it …. ’cause i’m starting to get fed..
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June 13th, 2012 at 7:31 pmwhile the litle boy got bruises those guy have paid with their lives …. is it a human right violation ??? you tell me
Well when I was speaking of human rights violations I was referring to matters on a somewhat wider scale that this particular incident. But O.k. let us focus on that. It is instructive.
How come you are so precisely informed about the condition of that little boy? The press report I posted says nothing of that. Also these two soldiers did not both lose their lives, one of them did. I suppose he got that thrashing not only in retaliation for that accident but also for the many things those Papuans in Wamena have had to endure from those interlopers whether in or out of uniform.
In an orderly society, that in the sixty years Indonesia has been there it should have been able to create, the fellows who hurt that boy might have been prosecuted for criminal negligence and those who did the thrashing for manslaughter.
But that is not the way things are done in Papua. The military went out with guns and flame throwers, for chrissake, and shot at least eight people who might not have been involved in the incident at all and set about one hundred shops and houses on fire.
The military there is not under control. It never has been. Right from the start it had the wrong attitude. It indulged in the rhetoric of liberation but practiced the art of suppression. I was a witness of that first phase.
papua won’t be as developed as today if it wasn’t for the “visitor” help and sweats …
That has been the excuse of all colonizers. Papua was developed with money gained from its own minerals and the cheap labour provided by its own population. And the land never got the full benefit of that mineral bounty. That went elsewhere.
… if you do have a peaceful solution rather than just flamesbait and lame moans let us hear it
Well it might help if you, and people like you, stopped coming up with lame excuses for what is happening there. That might contribute to the creation of a ‘public opinion’ that is conducive to positive change rather than being a repository of threadbare colonialist apologetics for the status quo.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 8:14 pmHow come you are so precisely informed about the condition of that little boy
precise would be an exaggeration …. let’s just say i do have on spots channels
well losing both liver and permanently disabled satisfying enough for you ( for the grunts ) ??? you do take things damn too lightly
and you still haven’t answered on the human right violation question…
But that is not the way things are done in Papua. The military went out with guns and flame throwers, for chrissake, and shot at least eight people who might not have been involved in the incident at all and set about one hundred shops and houses on fire
i never said things was allright in papua …. but double standard treatments and blindfolded accusations won’t rest the already chaotic situation either … or perhaps you are one of those firm believer of an eye for one eye phrase
That has been the excuse of all colonizers. Papua was developed with money gained from its own minerals and the cheap labour provided by its own population. And the land never got the full benefit of that mineral bounty. That went elsewhere
all of those lines starting to seem nostalgic to me … but if you do want to know about the flows … it goes almost exclusively to east timor whom you worked out so hard so you ( think you could .. ) get all of those oil for free as a gratitudes ( altough it fails and gives more headaches than already is )
Well it might help if you, and people like you, stopped coming up with lame excuses for what is happening there. That might contribute to the creation of a ‘public opinion’ that is conducive to positive change rather than being a repository of threadbare colonialist apologetics for the status quo
since it come to this chest beating and d**k measuring contest … i’ll humbly refrain my self from it …:o
yes … yes you can blabs and masturbate all night ’til drops and i ain’t gonna stop ya’ …. but , that still won’t change the fact what the worlds accept diplomatically of what was an integral parts of indonesia .
the irony is lately i had to thanks to the chinese for their errands but effectively cooling a lot of heats
talking about a reality checks
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June 13th, 2012 at 8:30 pmstill won’t change the fact what the worlds accept diplomatically
The world once accepted the Netherlands Indies diplomatically. The rest of your letter is too chaotic to enter into.
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bluemoejoe says:
June 13th, 2012 at 8:47 pmThe world once accepted the Netherlands Indies diplomatically. The rest of your letter is too chaotic to enter into.
since it won’t be polite to go out without saying ….. REALITY CHECKS dude
adios
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Oigal says:
June 13th, 2012 at 8:57 pmIndeed, sorry Bluey, You might need to get someone to translate for you, your last few posts have been well to put it mildly less than coherent.
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