826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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Oigal says:
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:16 amYasar ..just because you have been terminated as incapable of washing and ironing socks does not mean you can come back howling at the moon.
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Hoi says:
March 6th, 2012 at 7:09 amPurba,
Take a look around you and see that the Dutch essentially build Indonesia. Without the Dutch there would not have been the ethical policy, a feat which no one mentioned quite surprisingly. The ethical policy paved the way to Indonesian nationalism all the leaders of Indonesia were educated in Dutch educational institutions, Europeesche Lagere School van Nederlands-Indië, hogereburgerschool ,and he became an engineer in 1925 where he graduated from Technische Hoogeschool te Bandung.The Dutch have done horrible things but everybody has. This whole affair, It stinks on all sides but don’t let blind nationalism turn into a racist dislike for a populace. With hindsight we could say that without the Dutch there would not have been Indonesia.
The politionele acties yeah they were wrong and ridiculous, the Dutch should have handled it like Ze Brits by proposing independence but then under the british commonwealth. The Dutch actually tried this but then the republic were not really keen on doing this. On one hand you had the intellectual Sutan Sjahrir who was the only politician who had a solution and made sense, and on the other hand Soekarno who did not want negotiate or whatsoever.
Although I must say that the historiography on the politionele acties in the Netherlands is quite an embitterment
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ET says:
March 6th, 2012 at 11:05 amSukarno wanted a unitary Indonesia with a centralized government and himself at the top of the pecking order. Any proposal by the Dutch to make Indonesia a federalized state was considered an attempt at divide et impera. The Indonesian people themselves were left out of any real democratic decision making process. just like the Papuans 20 years later. Their only choice was to follow the leader and those who didn’t like the South-Moluccans paid a heavy price.
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Arie Brand says:
March 6th, 2012 at 2:24 pmAdriaan van Dis, a Dutch author, recently travelled through Indonesia to make a television documentary. I understand that he had never been there before. However, his father was a Eurasian and his mother was, before giving birth to him, originally married to an officer of the colonial army (another Eurasian) who was beheaded by the Japanese.
So, plenty of family memories to find the background of.
The first instalment was filmed on board of a Pelni-ship with which he travelled to Sulawesi (the ship went on to Papua but he was not allowed to go there).
Discourse is mainly in English and Indonesian – the subtitles are in Dutch.
For those who are interested:
http://www.hollanddoc.nl/kijk-luister/documentaire/d/van-dis-in-indonesie.html
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Yaser Antone says:
May 8th, 2012 at 6:24 pmPlease any one tell me about six patriotic days in Dutch history ( 10 – 16 May 1940 ). in case you forgot, its about the battle of Nederlands. After a six day fight, a proud national army ceased to exist. It was an unbelieve bravery shown by Dutch soldiers, they were able to withstand the German assault for SIX DAYS, what a great military achievement which the old Dutch must recount the story with the fullest pride.
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May 8th, 2012 at 7:33 pmIf evidence is needed for the hypothesis I came up with in my last post on the other thread : here is at least some of it. Give us more Yaser.
Incidentally we have now moved from Dutch war crimes to war crimes against the Dutch (see Wikipedia on the Battle of the Netherlands). I can’t say I regret the shift.
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Oigal says:
May 9th, 2012 at 12:07 amHey Yasar, then perhaps you could expand on the proud national army who thought they could stroll into a country a fraction of her size with passive and not so passive assistance of every western nation and who soundly got her arse whipped for two weeks by peasant farmers until aircraft supplied by the british turn the tide. Of course they took ground but never held ground for the next 25 years. We are of course talking of East Timor but if that bores you lets talk Malaysia
. Indonesia has achieved much but I would suggest trying to denigrate other nations of the performance of their forces is very shaky ground to make a stand on. -
madrotter says:
May 9th, 2012 at 12:35 amNice one oigal;-)
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BangaIndonesia says:
May 9th, 2012 at 4:16 am90% of the stupid dutch people will never know this violating, unhuman part of history, as yes, what i already read here, if they had to pay all the dept , dutch would be pourest. But there is another part, some people of indonesia are still loyal to those bastards, i would never do that.. ex-KNIL militants and indo’s …..
Banga Indonesia, ANTI baratistme!! nationalistme but absolutely NOT extreem religionisme
one more note: ANTI-Baratisme means AGAINST Colonialisme by the WEST(australia – US and just call the names of the countries) and by the way, KARMA comes back…. 5 year war is nothing comparing 350 year treat people unhuman and stealing including WAR…..
i dont care about the WWII day for the dutchies, meanwhile they where the same kind like the nazi’s , killing people, torchering(1945-1950), the spirits of the innocent people are still searching their rest and peace.
and after 60 years, some old men comes to say ” we are so sorry” …..
TO HOI:
“Without the Dutch there would not have been the ethical policy, a feat which no one mentioned quite surprisingly. ”
without indonesia there was no wealthy holland, look at Shell one of the first oil platforms build in indonesia. DUH!!! there is no book , or any lessons in holland, about the things they did do wrong bad wurse, nothing, only talking about the golden ages of VOC.
Typical dutch people.
TO HOI:
” With hindsight we could say that without the Dutch there would not have been Indonesia.”
where did you read that???
???? The Japanese took over, while the Dutchies tried to take over Indonesia again.. then the UN came , so the dutch had to get the hell out of my country
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May 9th, 2012 at 4:49 amMilitary matters are quite obscure to me.
Just this morning I heard on the news that the Dutch want to sell one hundred of their tanks (I don’t know whether they have any left after that). For the money they want to buy unmanned drones. Where the hell are they going to use those?
They have found a customer for those tanks. Indonesia. It wants to buy them for two hundred million Euro and the Dutch Ministry of Defence seems to be happy with the offer. Now what is Indonesia going to do with those tanks? That is also the question in Dutch parliament where there seems to be no inclination right now to approve of the deal. Members have referred to West Papua, Aceh and East Timor.
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Oigal says:
May 9th, 2012 at 5:25 amYa, I read Indonesia was also looking at purchasing Leopard Tanks..WTF? To use where? Doing What? More ships makes sense, more planes makes sense..Tanks..bizarre!
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May 9th, 2012 at 10:08 amOigel
You seem to forget that we have land borders with Malaysia and
Papua new guinea -
May 9th, 2012 at 10:59 amIn the morning of the 14th May 1940 Hitler issued his “Weisung” no. 11. It read (in translation):
The resistance capability of the Dutch army has proved to be stronger than expected. Political as well as military reasons demand that this resistance is broken as soon as possible. It is the task of the army to capture the Fortress Holland by committing enough forces from the south, combined with an attack on the east front. In addition to that the air force must, while weakening the forces that up till now have supported the 6th Army, facilitate the rapid fall of the Fortress Holland.
The quickest means to break the resistance as soon as possible was to bomb the heart out of Rotterdam. This took place at about 7 kms. away from us. I was four at the time and the whole affair must have frightened a year’s growth out of me.
The Germans threatened that, if the Dutch army did not cease its resistance, other cities would follow suit. The most likely target would have been Utrecht. The Dutch army saw no way to stop the bombers and capitulated. It could have been that if it hadn’t the Germans would have decided to finish the job in Rotterdam and its surroundings first in which case I might not have been here to write this letter.
A bit much to satisfy Yasser.
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berlian biru says:
May 9th, 2012 at 11:52 amThe rapid Dutch capitulation to the Germans and the Japanese will certainly not be regarded as the finest hour of a once mighty empire.
They had got soft and fat over the centuries sucking the marrow out of the bones of their empire’s subject peoples, without being prepared to actually fight and die for that empire when the crunch came.
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May 9th, 2012 at 1:35 pmMore bs from bb.
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berlian biru says:
May 9th, 2012 at 2:52 pmWhat’s bs about it Arie?
You yourself point out that the Dutch army were holding the Germans but packed it in after an hour’s bombing of one town. Not exactly the Blitz spirit was it? Good thing the citizens of London, Leningrad and Stalingrad were made of sterner stuff than the burghers of Rotterdam.
Look at the Poles, they held out longer than the Dutch, they were alone and fighting two armies. Their capital city was heavily bombed. The Poles fought on even after being defeated in the field, sending hundreds of thousands of men overseas to fight in lands far from their homeland. Even then in Warsaw in 1944 they rose again and fought longer than harder than the Dutch had done and once again saw their capital razed to the ground.
Magnificent spirit the Poles had, but then they hadn’t been softened by the tropical breezes had they?
The Yugoslavs also saw Belgrade being bombed, they fought on savagely for the next four years tying down entire German divisions and eventually liberating themselves. They liberated themselves around the time Ann Frank died in Auschwitz having been sold for a few guilders by some Dutchman.
Even in the Far East the British fought longer, harder and lost more men for tiny Singapore than the Dutch did for their entire Asian empire.
Soft and fat, Arie. Soft and fat.
(At this point cue timdog and Oigal to rush to Arie’s aid to show that in fact the Dutch were the greatest fighters of WWII and anyway what about the shitehole of Indonesia today, eh?)
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May 9th, 2012 at 3:23 pmS
Soft and fat, Arie. Soft and fat.
Yes and the trouble was that, being so fat, they couldn’t run away fast enough either.
Wouldn’t have helped them very much though – with that conspicuous attire.
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stevo says:
May 9th, 2012 at 3:27 pmJust this morning I heard on the news that the Dutch want to sell one hundred of their tanks (I don’t know whether they have any left after that). For the money they want to buy unmanned drones. Where the hell are they going to use those?
The Dutch want Drones (and the Indonesians want Tanks) for the usual reasons. They employ them against their own citizens and those of other countries to exert authority.
The Dutch are already using drones against their own citizens; for example spying on marijuana growers (watch out Timdog!) and have done for some time. Tomorrow the Dutch navy is sending the HNLMS Evertsen to patrol waters around Somalia. They have an unmanned Drone with them.
It is hardly surprising that Indonesia would want to maintain its military capabilities, in the same way every other country does. I doubt they intend to invade their former colonizers ( Would they need a hundred tanks for that job?)
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Oigal says:
May 9th, 2012 at 3:35 pmThanks Yasar, and you are going to deploy Leopard tanks in Papua to patrol the land border. Yup, that will work. In fact from a military and stategic stand point is is difficult to imagine a more useless piece of military hardware for the Indonesian situation. The Malaysian border…hmmm…didn’t work out so well time, can’t see how half dozen 40 tonne tanks stuck turret deep in the mud will make a difference.
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stevo says:
May 9th, 2012 at 3:45 pmThe Yugoslavs also saw Belgrade being bombed, they fought on savagely for the next four years tying down entire German divisions and eventually liberating themselves.
BB, I would be very careful drawing upon that region as an example of resistance to facisim. They were certainly very enthusiastic about helping out with the “Jewish problem” and rather allot else.
Recently their was another failure of regligious tolerance. If your point is that, they love a scrap, then point taken.
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Oigal says:
May 9th, 2012 at 3:47 pmActually no BB, but if you wish I can give you a history lesson on the British in South East Asia along particularly after the sinking of HMAS Repulse and POW. Shall we start with the abject failures of leadership, abandonment of her soldiers and citizens/colonies.
On the plus it was the beginning of the end of the British myth of reliability, trust and decency towards her colonies and an awakening of what she really represented. Just be reading about the fine and noble behaviours of the Brits in Malaysia, interesting read.
Not sure how you arriived at the fact I am some great supporter of the Dutch as such but fun to watch you get there.
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stevo says:
May 9th, 2012 at 3:49 pmSerbian Nazi fascists worked closely with German Nazi officials in making Belgrade the first “Judenfrei” city of Europe. Serbian leader Milan Nedic made an official visit to Adolf Hitler on 19 September 1943, advancing the idea that Serbia is no place for Jews and thanking ‘Führer’ for his decision to exterminate our people in Europe.
Throughout the War, the Serbian Chetnik movement remained almost completely inactive against the occupation forces, and increasingly collaborated with the Axis, losing its international recognition as the Yugoslav resistance force.
(watch out Timdog!) Ooops I think I mean Madhatter.
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berlian biru says:
May 9th, 2012 at 5:05 pmNot sure how you arriived at the fact I am some great supporter of the Dutch
No you just hate Indonesia, I know, we all know, trust me you’ve made it clear often enough. You hate Indonesia so much you can’t bring yourself to leave it.
…her arse whipped for two weeks by peasant farmers until aircraft supplied by the british turn the tide.
You know when I first read that I thought it referred to the RAF strafing unarmed men, women and children in Surabaya in November 1945 as they supported British and Australian ground troops massacring thousands of peasants armed with little more than bamboo sticks and all on behalf of the Dutchman.
Isn’t it funny what hypocritical westerners choose to get all sanctimonious about when it comes to Indonesia, and what they choose to forget?
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Oigal says:
May 9th, 2012 at 8:09 pmNo you just hate Indonesia”, I know, we all know, trust me you’ve made it clear often enough. You hate Indonesia so much you can’t bring yourself to leave it
What abject nonsense you do talk. Although the irony is your Lord Jim routine racing out to protect your natives from these evil white folk is almost side splitting as a parody . Here’s a tip, most commentators here both national and otherwise are more than capable of debating their own position without the patronising Lord Jim routine from yourself (as amusing as it is). I am pretty sure even Yasar the sock ironer doesn’t really need nor wants Colonel Tishtosh racing out to defend him.
You know when I first read that I thought it referred to the RAF strafing unarmed men, women and children in Surabaya in November 1945
The perhaps you should read a little more carefully and perhaps do a little more research before we arrive at more of the BB self evident facts. Once again I am happy to provide you with a little more history is you are prepared to relax and lower “I am just so jolly offended on behalf of my natives routine”
As the man said..Get a Grip and lower the hyperbole.
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agan says:
May 9th, 2012 at 10:53 pmNo you just hate Indonesia, I know, we all know, trust me you’ve made it clear often enough. You hate Indonesia so much you can’t bring yourself to leave it.
He is probably experiencing the Humpybong Syndrome
not that uncommon for people who believe they are the victim of an abusive relationship
hates his pembantu, neck of the woods masjid’s loudspeaker, host country or whatnot
and yet form strong bond and emotional ties at the same time.No worry most of us at some point in our lives go thru this also and its’ all good.
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berlian biru says:
May 9th, 2012 at 11:25 pmto protect your natives from these evil white folk
The Indonesian people don’t need me to defend them from red faced, apoplectic western losers, they’ve proved themselves more than capable of doing that in the past.
But come on, do tell us again how a blowhard aussie, who very strangely and quite inexplicably hates this country, its history, its culture and its administration but who doesn’t do the logical thing and fuck off back to where he came from, would run this country so much better than the people who actually live here and love the place.
You’ve only droned on about it five hundred and seventy thousand or so times already.
Oigal do your blood pressure a favour mate, go home, you’re killing yourself with so much bitterness and bile bottled up inside you. There must be a suburb of Wagga Wagga that would be more appreciative of your vast and unequalled knowledge of the world than the bloody ungrateful Indons, eh?
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Riki Purnomoz says:
May 9th, 2012 at 11:31 pmHumpybonger has been trying to savor city life for years, Its a pity he aren’t able to ajust himself to the civilized society. He curses everything around. If you are a dung smellist or a spuddy then living in Jakarta is a torture.
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Oigal says:
May 10th, 2012 at 2:25 amNow now BB, I know you have taken quite a pasting over the past couple days but honestly it’s self inflicted but do try and be civil or at least humourous (throw in a BB self evident fact to two they are always good for a giggle). We have discussed the Lord Jim thing, you really should drop it, it is patronizing and to say the least self absorbed. Actually no I don’t have a vast and unequaled knowledge but I can see how it might appear that way in conversation with yourself everything is relative I guess.
Agan , sorry couldn’t hear you, it’s those loud speakers.
Riki Tiki, sorry don’t live anywhere Jakarta but I do appreciate your attempts at humour.
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May 10th, 2012 at 3:34 amsorry couldn’t hear you
Bloody fair dinkum mate, too much wanking does lead to hard of hearing!
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May 10th, 2012 at 6:13 amas they supported British and Australian ground troops massacring thousands of peasants armed with little more than bamboo sticks and all on behalf of the Dutchman.
I sometimes suspect that BB gets, as far as Indonesia is concerned, history lessons from his (or others) school going children.
Rachmat Sudibjo writes on his website “One Upon a Time in Nusantara” , a propos of Mayor General Hawthorn’s ultimatum to the Surabayan populace to surrender its weapons:
Certainly, Hawthorn must have been dreaming. He was unaware about the immensity of the weapons quantity he had asked Surabaya people to surrender. A total of 37,000 arms of various types including rifles, heavy machine guns, mortars, coastal batteries, trucks,18 anti-aircraft artillery, 23 light tanks, 34 Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel, 1 mine sweeper, 2 submarine hunters and 2 tugboats were in the hand of Surabaya military, police, and volunteers, not mention the clubs, swords, daggers, and bamboo spears held in the mob’s hands.
These weapons supposedly came from the Japanese. I don’t know to what extent this claim is true but it certainly sounds a lot more plausible than BB’s bamboo spears. Or does he believe that the 600 or so allied service men who were killed in that battle had all been dispatched by bamboo spears? For what it is worth Wikipedia has under the entry “Battle of Surabaya”
a picture of a burnt out Indonesian tank. It also mentions that the biggest loss to the nationalist cause there was the amount of weaponry that fell into British hands. What were the Brits going to do with all those bamboo spears?
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